Global Waypoints

Koruyo

<div class="IPBDescription">=> because squads wont work right</div>Needed to throw this into its own thread.
Afaik, the current plan for marines is (was? dunno if uwe already realized it too) a squad system.

After commanding a lot of games i ve to say, that I <u>never</u> felt like i would need a feature like squads. I would even say it would be a pain if i had to manage and remanage my marines into squads. And i dont see how automatic squads would work, especially since we got pg and not the squad teleport system. (the only way to make squads work would have been the squad respawn/teleport we know from games like battlefield)

What i missed, was a quick and fast way besides voice to tell ppl what to do. (and i dont always feel like using voice, nor does everybody feel like playing with sound... so you cant just say - everybody use voice only, especially because there are also ppl that are deaf)

<b>
My idea is global waypoints.</b>
Global waypoints are visible to all marines without the need to select them.
They stay active as long as you dont delete them.
Multiple Global Waypoints are possible
Marines can still get individual waypoints (maybe make the global invisible as long as the individual is active)
Attack/Capture/Hold/Defend - something like that...
(a suggestion was to have a individual text attatched to the waypoint(short key words what you want, but i think thats not really userfriendly - if it is doable, the text should only be readable via the minimap hotkey -> i dont want floating walls of text)

<b>Real game szenario:</b>
I set a global waypoint "attack" at position X (e.g. Hive)
=> every marine heads towards X. (at least if they feel like doing what the commander wants)
In the mean time Aliens attack A and B, (Skulks at Extractor)
As reaction i give a normal waypoint(current system like ns1, select marine => waypoint) to marines close to that position.
They know their maingoal is still X, so i dont need to give individual normal waypoints after A, B is cleared.

<b>How to place a Global Waypoint?</b>
A lot possible solutions for this, from extra UI menu element - to popup menus with hotkeys. (e.g. like middle mouse button from ns1)

<b>How to delete a Global Waypoint?</b>
Global waypoints get their own icon at the UI, Icon that represents the Order (Attack, Defend...)
On left mouse click (or double click) the commander view goes to its position
On right mouse click (or double click) it deletes the waypoint

Double clicks are better since you wont do stuff accidently..., but the current ui system doesnt feature double clicks yet - so to stay consistent i wrote single click.

Global waypoints work fine for marines and aliens.
Since i got a feeling something like that was already planned, but for aliens only - Dont do it just for one team, if you want to make special buffs for objectives or something like that on the alien team - do it the medpack way.

PS: Commanders want to see their waypoints too.

Align

Once I discovered that Attack and Defend orders lasted indefinitely I started using those much more, so I can definitely sympathize. The alien comm will apparently get pretty much what you suggest, as seen in the "Markers" menu.
It feels a little weird to give the alien commander the easier & more useful directing ability, but I also don't want to make the two commanders even more similar than they are already, so... I'm not sure what a good compromise would be.

Koruyo

Similar or not this is a very usefull feature and would make life a lot easier with ppl that dont know what to do if i not babysitted all the time.

Its a fast way to tell my team whats going on on the map, marines dont have parasites, motiontracking or hive sight - their structures dont have glowing red icons in the 3d world if attacked.

If anyone marines should get this feature - they dont know anything if the commander doesnt tell them. (you know what? both teams have commanders now, both commanders should have the same features to manage their ppl (units) => this is not ns1)


<b>Asymmetry for the sake of asymmetry.
</b>

PS: get rid of this auto squad stuff - all it does is block my view with bright red, blue... colors so i cant see ######.
PPS: Get ammo and medpack drop working right - atm its STILL a pain*. (ah and fix pres - without welders there is no pres for medpacks, thanks to the bilebomb and macs dead in 3hits, and WHY cant i repair macs or arcs?)

edit: And again - I want to see the waypoints i gave.


*is it so hard to stop collision if i got medpacks selected - so i can drop them on marines and not 3meters away, or have to search a place to drop them if its a group of marines...

Harimau

I've never really understood that argument, Align. That's like saying that the interface and order system for Zerg should be completely different to the same for Terran.

Align

Not quite, since in SC the sides all shared the RTS gameplay aspect, whereas in NS1 it was just the marine commander; the gorge played very differently. I didn't really want the alien commander, but if it's going to be in it should have a distinct feel, since playing as any alien class is nothing like playing any marine class.

Harimau

I don't agree. I think it's just asymmetry for the sake of asymmetry. Unbeneficial. Pointless and detrimental.

Align

I was saying in general, not necessarily this specific feature

Harimau

Okay, but what are your thoughts in terms of this particular feature suggestion?

Align

That would be my first post... I'm reluctant (not totally unwilling) to give them both the same abilities, but this one might be too useful to pass up.

Harimau

I don't consider it an "ability", I consider it a basic interface feature.

Align

Ok.

Ironsoul

Here is my idea to handle the waypoint problem.

This can easily work for both teams, but I will use marines as an example if I do use an example.

Firstly, have an objective screen, the commander sees this all the time, the marines in the field have to open up their map to see it.

The objective screen works much like a to do list, objectives can be added by clicking new order, and then typing in the order. Or Adding in a predefined order.

Then, to make things simple, the commander can then click and drag the order text onto a point on the map to place a waypoint. And every marine in the field can see the order, perhaps an audio queue and some generic icons can be used to help marines see if the order is a defend, build, or attack order.
NOTE: I have an idea for plotting the travel waypoints which I will post at the end.

The commander can left click, or right click, depending on the design choice, to emphasize an objective, this will make the icon marines see in their first person view flash, and also the order text pop up somewhere on their screen (probably under the order icon).

The orders are seen just like waypoints are seen now.

To remove an order, the commander simply has to click an X next to the order in their order list.

____________________________

A note about predefined orders: things like attack, defend, build, will already be in the order list, but inactive, the commander simply has to drag them to the map to add another objective for the marines to see.



PATHFINDING OF WAYPOINTS. Ok, so when the commander places an order at a spot on the map, the order is automatically made the active order for the commander(so he only sees info about that objective). And a line with dots along it is drawn from each marine, to the objective, this will be computed with the games pathfinding logic. The dots can also be dragged around to allow the commander to customise the path to be taken.

Harimau

<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=112500&view=findpost&p=1834670" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1834670</a>
Sample:
<!--quoteo(post=1834670:date=Feb 24 2011, 07:42 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 24 2011, 07:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834670"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u>8. Commanders: Mini-map ping:</u>
<b>.A.</b> a la any RTS you can think of. Sound, visual effect and marker, displays on mini-map and world-view for a marine.
<b>.B.</b> Instantly communicates a point of interest, can be used in conjunction with voice communication, and to slightly micromanage marines on the scene.
<b>.C.</b> e.g. Alt+Click on the overhead view OR the minimap.
<b>.D.</b> small button next to the mini-map to manually ping
<b>.E.</b> context-sensitive (explored further later)
<b>.F.</b> limited over time: time between pings is limited, and a new ping will decrement the remaining duration of any previous pings; this is to prevent ping spam and 'noise'.

...

<u>13. Commanders: More versatile (and common to both teams) order system:</u>
Three interacting types: marker (objective), waypoint (order), and ping (alertion).
<b>.A.</b> each visually distinct, and functionally distinct. (Waypoints arguably not useful to alien player style; but arguably not useful to a voice-comm marine commander either.)
<i>.A.a. markers are objectives, seen by the whole team, of "low" priority</i>
<i>.A.b. waypoints are orders, seen by the selected unit/squad, of "medium" priority</i>
<i>.A.c. pings are alertions, seen by the whole team but relevant only to those within proximity, of "high" priority</i>
<b>.B.</b> in "Order' tab: Waypoints in 2nd row, Markers in 3rd row
<b>.C.</b> each of variety, move, attack, defend, possibly build/repair
<b>.D.</b> each will display as a list on the HUD, each type in different colours
<b>.E.</b> 'remove' button, also a keyboard shortcut, to remove markers, waypoints and pings


<u>14. Commanders: Context Sensitive actions:</u>
<b>.A.</b> With a unit selected, right-click will ordinarily be a move action, but
<i>.A.a. when clicking on an enemy structure will be an attack action,</i>
<i>.A.b. when clicking on an unbuilt ally structure will be a build action,</i>
<i>.A.c. when clicking on a built ally structure will be a guard action,</i>
<i>.A.d. when clicking on an ally unit will be a guard&follow action,</i>
<i>.A.e. when clicking on a pre-existing marker (objective), will redefine that marker as a waypoint (order) for that unit,</i>
<i>.A.f. using the "move" waypoint in the "order" tab will override these.</i>
<b>.B.</b> With a unit selected, using the "guard" waypoint in the "order" tab will be a guard action,
<i>.B.a. ordering on the ground will be a defend this area / hold this position action</i>
<i>.B.b. ordering on a unit or structure will be a guard action; etc.</i>
<b>.C.</b> Pinging:
<i>.C.a. similar to right-click's context sensitivity - mini-map pings become specific when applied to certain objects/conditions</i>
<i>.C.b. pinging on a marker will make that ping specific to the marker's action, and highlight it (it will tell the whole team that they need to 'get here and do this')</i>
<i>.C.c. specific pings will display on the marine HUD, as part of the list described in 13.D.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Ironsoul

Nice. But yeah, Custom objectives, so you can add in your own text.

Koruyo

/1up

Harimau

<!--quoteo(post=1854469:date=Jun 19 2011, 09:29 PM:name=Ironsoul)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ironsoul @ Jun 19 2011, 09:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854469"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Custom objectives, so you can add in your own text.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like that.