Fade Super-Swipe needs Retooling
Heyman
Join Date: 2005-03-29 Member: 46895Members
Join Date: 2005-03-29 Member: 46895Members
<div class="IPBDescription">A possible solution</div>The current Super-Swipe/Hard-Swipe is near-useless in almost any situation for a Fade currently.
There is one reason, and only one, why nobody uses it:
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><i><b>The Super-Swipe cripples the Fade's mobility.</b></i><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The attack slows the Fade down drastically, also making him incapable of using blink while the attack animation is running (although this may be admittedly an engine problem rather than a balance problem). <i>This goes against everything that the Fade is about</i>, which is being a powerful guerilla fighter who can take a marine on by itself and is great at picking away at groups in full teambattles. It's counter-intuitive to his role in the Alien team.
<b><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Proposal.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#008000--><span style="color:#008000"><!--/coloro--><b>Goal: Fades need to remain mobile while using their superswipe. </b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<b>Solution 1:</b> Give fades an increased movement speed while the attack is charging.
<b>Solution 2:</b> Allow fades to blink while the attack is charging.
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Simply adding the suggested changes without any gameplay changes would be akin to giving the fade a free focus at its discretion. Thusly...
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<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro--><b>Balancing the Solution: Establish a high risk/reward decision when using the super-swipe</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<b>IF Solution 1:</b> Activate a 2-3 second cooldown for all attacks/abilities or a movement speed decrease if super-swipe misses
<b>IF Solution 2:</b> Have blink consume energy at a faster rate when the super-swipe attack animation is running. Restore X amount of energy upon attack landing.
Any other suggestions are welcome. The main goal is to decide how to make the Fade's abilities fit his role, or to perhaps discuss if I'm right or wrong.
There is one reason, and only one, why nobody uses it:
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><i><b>The Super-Swipe cripples the Fade's mobility.</b></i><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The attack slows the Fade down drastically, also making him incapable of using blink while the attack animation is running (although this may be admittedly an engine problem rather than a balance problem). <i>This goes against everything that the Fade is about</i>, which is being a powerful guerilla fighter who can take a marine on by itself and is great at picking away at groups in full teambattles. It's counter-intuitive to his role in the Alien team.
<b><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Proposal.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#008000--><span style="color:#008000"><!--/coloro--><b>Goal: Fades need to remain mobile while using their superswipe. </b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<b>Solution 1:</b> Give fades an increased movement speed while the attack is charging.
<b>Solution 2:</b> Allow fades to blink while the attack is charging.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Simply adding the suggested changes without any gameplay changes would be akin to giving the fade a free focus at its discretion. Thusly...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro--><b>Balancing the Solution: Establish a high risk/reward decision when using the super-swipe</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<b>IF Solution 1:</b> Activate a 2-3 second cooldown for all attacks/abilities or a movement speed decrease if super-swipe misses
<b>IF Solution 2:</b> Have blink consume energy at a faster rate when the super-swipe attack animation is running. Restore X amount of energy upon attack landing.
Any other suggestions are welcome. The main goal is to decide how to make the Fade's abilities fit his role, or to perhaps discuss if I'm right or wrong.
Comments
But I disagree, I have used fade's second ability quite a lot to take out the Flamethrowers before I attack the others. It does need a slight change though because other people don't use.
But I disagree, I have used fade's second ability quite a lot to take out the Flamethrowers before I attack the others. It does need a slight change though because other people don't use.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like to think that the super-swipe needs to be used in more than just that situation. In addition, how do marines just stand there letting you charge up your super-swipe? You can barely move. As a fade, your mobility and burst damage are your prime features, and you just lost one of them by choosing to use the super-swipe. Any smart marine would widen the distance gap between you and them all the while pumping you full of bullets/explosives/fire.
In a game as twitchy as NS/NS2, a half-second is the difference between your death or your escape, and super-swipe takes away a good second and a half away from you to almost no reward.
In a game as twitchy as NS/NS2, a half-second is the difference between your death or your escape, and super-swipe takes away a good second and a half away from you to almost no reward.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, the range on the super-swipe is very long. About 3 times(?) further than the usual swipes, they improved this and now it is much easier to hit (At least I think so). But situational becuase they can't move back in corridors and other confined.
I do agree with your about mobility being a prime feature of the fade and then super-swipe backfiring on that.
I do agree with your about mobility being a prime feature of the fade and then super-swipe backfiring on that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would argue that a marine could still easily dodge this attack if he so much as heard the drool dripping, but that's a bit disingenuous of me, as I haven't used the attack in ages. I'll get back to you once I've tried it out again on the current build.
I agree it needs retooling, but it's gonna require some serious thought as Fades make a huge contribution to gameplay.
The game is over once Fades are in the game, didn't ya know? ;)
Now, some serious suggestions: Why not change the Slash attack to either:
1. Deal a large amount of damage over time (eg causes the marine to bleed for 150 damage over 2 seconds, which is reduced by armour), or
2. Deal a small amount of damage, but cripples the victim's movement (eg 40 damage, movement reduced by 40%).
Option 1 will make the Fade a more effective harasser against groups of Marines, as although the damage is not enough to kill a Marine with full health, the Fade will be able to severely injure Marines with one strike, but with reduced chance of receiving retaliation.
Option 2 will provides the Fade with a support weapon, so the Fade can cripple a Marine, while attracting most of the Marines' attention, and help others bring down a dangerous target. Maybe even a reseachable upgrade can be added to such an attack, with the added effect of disabling Marine structures.
This.
Scrap it and give the fade a different ability imo. Or else, have it work the same way that focus worked which was much more intuitive.
In its current iteration, stab is simply way too narrow and focused towards a few situations....and even in those situations normal swipes would have been more effective.
A few ways to make stab more useful:
<b>
-Place stab as the alt fire of swipe. Then place blink on the shift key (shift being the universal movement key...marine sprint, gorge belly slide, skulk leap perhaps (modifier with jump). Being able to call upon it more easily will by default see it more play.
-I agree, increase movement (even slow movement) while performing stab animation. Just standing there is asking for SG to the face.
-Allow players to blink mid-animation in order to abort a botched attack. However it also cancels the attack.</b>
I also thought about allowing players to charge the attack while blinking, but I think it could lead to some serious omgwtfpwn 1-hit kills that would be very frustrating for the marine player. You'd have to add a series of drawbacks to balance it (first being no 1-hit kill). It would make it an almost completely different attack.
Focus is one of the most powerful upgrades in NS1.
One hit high damage payload is extremely good on certain condititons. However, it requires smooth lifeform control and suitable HP math to be really effective. The HP math can probably be tweaked in quite a few ways, but I'm not sure about the fade an its smoothness. For now it doesn't at least flow as much as NS1 fade, which makes stabbing even more diffuclt.
I think the fade blink momentum might change things a bit at least. You can at least try to dive out of the blink, start with a mid air charged stab and follow up with swipes. In theory at least. In practise I'm not sure whether that's any better than simply blinking right next to your target and start swiping.
As for the suggestions I don't know. I think in general I'd like to avoid giving fade any instakill weapon right after the blink exit (solution 2), it reminds me a bit of cloakfocus. It depends quite a bit on what kind of dynamics the blink is supposed to have with marines, right now marines haven't got too many options apart from trying to shoot the fade once it shows up.
A change to the Slash would do the Fade more overpowered!
Blink and charge, end Blink and kill, blink back....
If you miss now you are almost dead! You don't get healt back and you have a little Cooldown now to change Back to 1. Attack then Blink. In this time you stand still and get for sure 4 SG shots right in the Nutts!
So I say no to both.
You have to choose now between many mid damage hits and great movement, or Huuuughe DMG while standing there.
And when the Exo is in Slash could be the best vs then. They can focus to shoot faster but lose movement, and getting out of this mode has for sure a cooldown!
Or with Silence omg...
As for the swipe, swap it out for a lunging stab attack.
So when you right click, the fade will lunge forward and stab. This is a half way between giving complete mobility and making the fade overpowered...
When the fade lunges, it will lung straight away, no wind up. But once set in motion it has to complete the lunge before it can move around freely again, perhaps allow mouse rotational movement only while lunging awdafij lunge ing... hmm.
Anyway, this would be especially useful for recreating that scene in the trailer. A fade can blink behind a marine, and lunge and stab them. The stab would be a forward thrust of the claw spike thingies rather than a vertical swipe.
On a side note, would be interesting for a quick death animation of the marine when you do this. Not one of those annoyingly long ones, just make it so the marine get's grabbed by the fade as the fade stabs him... to add immersion and awesomeness.
One hit high damage payload is extremely good on certain condititons. However, it requires smooth lifeform control and suitable HP math to be really effective. The HP math can probably be tweaked in quite a few ways, but I'm not sure about the fade an its smoothness. For now it doesn't at least flow as much as NS1 fade, which makes stabbing even more diffuclt.
I think the fade blink momentum might change things a bit at least. You can at least try to dive out of the blink, start with a mid air charged stab and follow up with swipes. In theory at least. In practise I'm not sure whether that's any better than simply blinking right next to your target and start swiping.
As for the suggestions I don't know. I think in general I'd like to avoid giving fade any instakill weapon right after the blink exit (solution 2), it reminds me a bit of cloakfocus. It depends quite a bit on what kind of dynamics the blink is supposed to have with marines, right now marines haven't got too many options apart from trying to shoot the fade once it shows up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you may remember from NS1, focus was an instant-kill weapon only during the early game when Marines had not researched armor yet, or mid-late game when the group had been harassed earlier by other aliens. Towards the late game, focus almost became a necessity due to the high damage output of nearly every marine in range where even the LMGs could hurt like hell.
I'd like to aim for for similar results, but with the current mechanics... You and a few other people are right about how simply including something similar to focus would be overpowered. the Fade is basically invisible from point A to point B upon engaging a marine, in addition it now has stab/superswipe (looks like a swipe to me meh) inherently as opposed to creating an upgrade out of it like it was with Focus. It's why I came up with the balancing options in the OP to establish a skill-based high risk/reward situation. From what I've seen so far in the thread, it seems that it's probably not enough to fix the possible abuse.
Daaaaw
Much appreciated.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=Jun 17 2011:name=NS2 Twitter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2 Twitter @ Jun 17 2011)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Differentiating Fade from Skulk making him more of a "surgical striker" (swipe dmg increase, slower ROF, higher energy cost)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aha! So does this mean stab will be completely removed/replaced?
<!--quoteo(post=1854622:date=Jun 19 2011, 06:19 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jun 19 2011, 06:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->actually i quite enjoy using the super swipe on IPs that are spawning marines. If you time it right their dead before they can do anything xD.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hi! I remember playing with you last Saturday. That jerk Com was in the server trollin' it up, if I recall.
So it is kind of like an Onos charge but smaller(Only something like 2 metres) and doesn't do any damage. The charge would push them back and make them stumble and slow their movement speed for ~2 seconds afterwards (~25% less movement speed?).
Fade needs a nerf though as well, skulks are crap end game because of the Flame-Throwers (You can get like 1 kill before you die, maybe not even that). Gorges become slightly useless (Good for healing end game though) because the Hydras die quite easily to the ARC and GL. Lerk is the only other alright thing end game (End game becomes a close range making it slightly useless. Kharaa are kind of inferior to marines if it wasn't for the fade.
Sounds pretty volatile considering how low the fade HP is and considering how much damage output a group has before it's worth cleaving, but it's definitely an interesting nevertheless. I think it needs to be more agile than the stab so far has been though.
Well... every now and then you come up from behind on 3 or 4 marines camping a door opening, too busy firing into the room to notice you. It could be an excellent opener to ***** slap all of them in one go before you switch to normal swipe and go after them individually.
Yeah, that's how I'd use it too.
I'm not sure how much I'd be willing to gamble that the marines are actually focused or clueless enough to ignore you long enough, but then again the whole value of the risk depends on so many factors that I can't see why there couldn't be some openings here and there.
Mostly I'd like like to avoid creating an ability that loses potential as marine aim and DPS improve, but I don't think this one has to go there as long as the implementation is well thought out. At least there are quite a few ways to tweak it.
And what about differentiating fades from skulks, maybe add back acid rockets. Those were pretty useful in marine base assaults.
They aren't that powerful and fades obviously can't blink while shooting them so it wouldn't be overpowered.
So I'm against rockets making a come-back. Not sure on the self-heal come back either: Makes fades "tanky". Would prefer to see self-healing on a skulk for quicker hit & run attacks. Wouldn't mind stealth becoming a larger factor for fades (some blink-themed shadowmeld type ability?).