<!--quoteo(post=1854011:date=Jun 18 2011, 04:29 AM:name=Racer1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racer1 @ Jun 18 2011, 04:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854011"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just make 1-hive (or pre-upgrade) skulk leap use 75%+ adrenaline. Then you can only use it once in a long while.
This makes it a good tactical option that can't overwhelm the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I came up with the same suggestion in that other thread. Balance it using energy costs, high energy cost pre-upgrade, low energy cost (what it is now) post-upgrade. I'm not sure about 75% though, my suggestion was only 50%.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
I'm not really for this change, personally i like the current skulk/marine balance.
That beeing said, i'm happy to try it out in the next patch, i mean, thats what the beta is for (and its not like this was the first time in this beta that the leap changed)
<!--quoteo(post=1854055:date=Jun 17 2011, 06:57 PM:name=Wiltdog)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wiltdog @ Jun 17 2011, 06:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854055"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Noticed today (10 minutes ago) on the Progress Tracker: Accepted: Make leap research and buyable (addresses early Skulk dominance) (discuss) Gameplay task Make leap research and buyable (addresses early Skulk dominance) transitioned from Delivered to Accepted
*Sigh*
Well, sad day for skulks indeed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is what happens when devs dont even play the damn game and just read whine posts. take a look at 179 for example
<!--quoteo(post=1854073:date=Jun 18 2011, 02:55 AM:name=m3lior)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (m3lior @ Jun 18 2011, 02:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854073"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even still, it's not reasonable to complain that skulks die to shotguns.
I just finished playing a game where I was skulk for the majority of it, and for the heck of it I decided to play the ENTIRE game without leap. I easily maintained a 1:1 KDR, well after the other team had flamethrowers, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't complaining that skulks die to shotguns. I was simply pointing out my experiences. I haven't really seen any skulk domination even with leap. Perhaps you can maintain a 1:1 KDR, but that doesn't mean it's balanced. Have a look at the marine scores next time and I'm sure you'll see plenty of people who easily maintain 3:1 or greater without much effort. 1:1 doesn't mean you are dominating by any means, certainly not enough for a nerf.
<!--quoteo(post=1854093:date=Jun 17 2011, 10:28 PM:name=Wiltdog)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wiltdog @ Jun 17 2011, 10:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854093"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And on the other flip side, this isn't NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yea ns1 is fun, ns2 is a practice on how to break that fun
<!--quoteo(post=1854228:date=Jun 18 2011, 01:47 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jun 18 2011, 01:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this is what happens when devs dont even play the damn game and just read whine posts. take a look at 179 for example<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You should read the opener post again. Not the community asked for a skulk nerf, the devs just want it so. Actually only 10 percent in this thread would like that. When it sucks they will change it again. It's called development, thats what developers do. This is not the 1.0, so do you have a problem with the concept of development? It's not like we will die tomorrow and never had a chance to get leap back after it has gone.
<!--quoteo(post=1854231:date=Jun 18 2011, 09:05 AM:name=countbasie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (countbasie @ Jun 18 2011, 09:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854231"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You should read the opener post again. Not the community asked for a skulk nerf, the devs just want it so. Actually only 10 percent in this thread would like that. When it sucks they will change it again. It's called development, thats what developers do. This is not the 1.0, so do you have a problem with the concept of development? It's not like we will die tomorrow and never had a chance to get leap back after it has gone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
theres development and then theres changes that clearly make no sense. how about making changes that actually add to gameplay instead of shortsighted crap that just wastes time and REALLY unbalances the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1854234:date=Jun 18 2011, 02:15 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jun 18 2011, 02:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854234"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->theres development and then theres changes that clearly make no sense. how about making changes that actually add to gameplay instead of shortsighted crap that just wastes time and REALLY unbalances the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about drinking a tea or a beer or smoke some funny stuff and calm down a little? That's all I wanted to say. You are right at some point, but there's no need of agressiveness. The first whiner in this thread was....well you know who it was?
As is, there is already way too much dependence for aliens on getting a second hive. If you're going to make skulk have to be 2nd hive researchable, then hives should be cheaper. As is, if marines coordinate and take down a new hive in the early stages of the game, it takes FOREVER to get back the proper resources to rebuild one. That means no creep spread, so no nodes. While we're talking about this, how about putting in a bit of fade time for the spread to whither away. Losing all RTs in the area is a massive hit to alien economy and hardly fair.
Now, with the skulk losing leap, how are they possibly supposed to deal with sentries down a hallway? Leaping behind them was absolutely critical. If they lose leap early game, then one turret down each hallway leading to marine start will completely dominate.
Shotguns are also stupid cheap, I think they should cost 20. 15 is too cheap, 25 is too expensive. As is you never see a marine anymore without a shotgun. Now you want to make marines be able to pick up guns? So marines can keep their tech, yet aliens lose all buildings connected to a hive within 10 seconds?
I understand fade feels a bit OP right now, but as is with these changes you're going to break aliens completely. You've given marines a way to deal with hydras, yet we can't touch sentry spam. All we're getting in the end is the onos for sentries, meanwhile marines will be getting jetpacks and miniguns.
<!--quoteo(post=1854084:date=Jun 18 2011, 04:00 AM:name=SatanLovesYOu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SatanLovesYOu @ Jun 18 2011, 04:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854084"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Come to think of it....Couldn't marines instantly drop SGs as soon as the armory was built(NS1), and leap was a hive 2 skill??<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes. But in NS1 you couldn't afford to equip the entire marine team with shotguns since they cost t.res, and even if you had a small enough team to do so you would be crippled economically if you didn't wipe out the aliens with that rush. In NS2 the only reason not to shotgun rush and blow apart the 2nd hive before it finishes building (sealing the game pretty much) is lack of marine coordination.
<!--quoteo(post=1854239:date=Jun 18 2011, 08:47 AM:name=Seraphace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Seraphace @ Jun 18 2011, 08:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854239"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I understand fade feels a bit OP right now, but as is with these changes you're going to break aliens completely. You've given marines a way to deal with hydras, yet we can't touch sentry spam. All we're getting in the end is the onos for sentries, meanwhile marines will be getting jetpacks and miniguns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im all with you other than right here. They did add a way for aliens to deal with sentry spam and thats with the Gorges bile bomb (still requires 2 hives.) However, as a gorge, is kinda tricky to solo bile bomb turrets. When you have protection, like a skulk ambushing marines, then bile bombing becomes pretty ###### awesome and effective. Its just hard to stay alive as a gorge when teammates dont cover you. They dont know how effective and important a gorge is to finishing off a turtling marine base.
Other than that, your points are valid. I really don't want skulks leap being taken away. Even if they add a movement speed increase it will still feel like the skulk is lacking.
Quote - VeNem - yea ns1 is fun, ns2 is a practice on how to break that fun
I lol'd. 179 wasn't THAT bad. Little do most realize that balance improves when performance improves. We should hold off on all these nerfs and buffs. Most of us still cant even fire a gun or bite a marine without losing some frames. Once those are fixed then we can fairly judge balance.
on a turtling marine base.. there's no way you can even get off bile bombs. They shotgun rush you or pick yo uoff at long range and one guy has a flamer crippling everything. Bile bomb doesn't negate stalemates at present point. And that being said, bile bomb animation is absolutely terrible on my top end computer. Looks like a slow moving bubble, but it looks glitchy.
Well, its tricky but you can be a pretty successful solo gorge if you're attack from ventilation. Just lay down temp infestation, a solo hydra (use it as a sheild) and pop back and forth bile bombing the power node at marine start. When a shotgunner comes, just dip back behind your hydra and heal spam. sooner or later he'll head back to the armory to heal. Rinse and repeat and you can get the power node down pretty fast. If not recalling most marines back to base to repair, giving your other teammates some room to improvise and do their thing.
I've even managed to hold off 2 marines for awhile with two temp hydras. If I woulda had protection, would been GG. Its early in the game so perfect strategies vs sentry spam havent yet been thought out.
I agree though, until the aliens get Onos, turtling marines will be an issue.
<!--quoteo(post=1854235:date=Jun 18 2011, 09:18 AM:name=countbasie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (countbasie @ Jun 18 2011, 09:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854235"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about drinking a tea or a beer or smoke some funny stuff and calm down a little? That's all I wanted to say. You are right at some point, but there's no need of agressiveness. The first whiner in this thread was....well you know who it was?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
should be focused more on adding features instead of implementing incorrect "balance" I mean they say stuff like they dont want to not focus on balance right now because they feel they dont want to waste a beta not doing so, but then they lower the shotgun cost and the flamethrower STILL doesnt function right. would be nice if they would keep what works and move on from there instead of playing guesswork with each patch. its frustrating because its like 1 step forward, 2 steps back, then wait for another 3 weeks while they undo the "fix"
<!--quoteo(post=1854246:date=Jun 18 2011, 10:14 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jun 18 2011, 10:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854246"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes. But in NS1 you couldn't afford to equip the entire marine team with shotguns since they cost t.res, and even if you had a small enough team to do so you would be crippled economically if you didn't wipe out the aliens with that rush. In NS2 the only reason not to shotgun rush and blow apart the 2nd hive before it finishes building (sealing the game pretty much) is lack of marine coordination.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
exactly, there is almost zero penalty for shotgun usage right off the bat. any decent marine will keep his first shotgun long enough to be able to buy 2 more upon death. and with commander purchasing in the game, a nice com could even just drop a shotty.
If they are seriously still planning to add movement skill for skulks, now is the moment to do it. Leap isn't a particularly good feature when it comes to scaling in skill, even less so when air curve isn't there.
If there isn't going to be movement skill in addition to leap, it's time to start thinking about how the leap upgrades get it to scale better through the round duration. I'd still expect trouble getting it to work on all levels of play though. Even with the crazy learning curve of bhop the aliens seemed to be more powerful on lower levels and slightly weaker on higher levels of play.
Meanwhile trying to make one form of leap go through all the gameplay doesn't seem viable to me. There's simply too many little things that don't either scale in player skill or in gameplay that progresses in tech and gear.
<!--quoteo(post=1854109:date=Jun 18 2011, 12:51 AM:name=xVisions)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xVisions @ Jun 18 2011, 12:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know what the solution to this issue is at this point... maybe a melee swing to knock skulks away but even this could go wrong if its too easy to pull off. It might be that leap jumps way too far, i would play with this a bit before i change anything else for balancing this issue.
It better get some serious marine side upgrade capabilities somewhere later in the game, it needs a niche.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The Rifle AltFire (Rifle-butt Melee) was intended to be the solution to the ARs vulnerability to Skulks. Would've given it more of a niche as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1854291:date=Jun 18 2011, 05:21 PM:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soylent_green @ Jun 18 2011, 05:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Leap is pretty anemic; if you're going to stick at hive 2 you might as well buff it back to NS1 quality.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
couldn't agree more. they keep changing how leap is added, but they still haven't fixed the actual leap to work as it worked in ns1. aliens aren't as agile as they were in ns1 either. just compare the current leap vs ns1 leap, and tell me which is better. And which skulk is more agile?
they must unchain lifeforms like in ns1, aliens shouldn't depend on second hive to get fades or any higher lifeforms. aliens could have fades with only one hive in ns1, heck even an onos with only one hive.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Do players still even try to ambush marines in the early game like NS1? I don't see a lot of that going on in current NS2 when you can leap around from the start. Maybe its a good thing making it hive2 tech again so the early game will be more like NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=1854335:date=Jun 18 2011, 09:43 PM:name=aeroripper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aeroripper @ Jun 18 2011, 09:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854335"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do players still even try to ambush marines in the early game like NS1? I don't see a lot of that going on in current NS2 when you can leap around from the start. Maybe its a good thing making it hive2 tech again so the early game will be more like NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you forgetting something, in ns1 aliens were much more agile due to skill based movement - so even without leap they could easily close the gap WITHOUT leap.
once leap was gotten through second hive, things gotten better but aliens were fine without leap.
in ns2, skill based movement is missing, aliens aren't as agile as they were thus them having leap early is needed to close the gap. lets not forget marines have SPRINT in early games, and pretty much throughout the whole game. making things only tougher for the aliens.
so you see, not only leap doesn't work as it did in ns1, but aliens aren't as agile as they were either - thus the problems begins.
<!--quoteo(post=1854337:date=Jun 18 2011, 05:48 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Jun 18 2011, 05:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854337"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you forgetting something, in ns1 aliens were much more agile due to skill based movement - so even without leap they could easily close the gap WITHOUT leap.
once leap was gotten through second hive, things gotten better but aliens were fine without leap.
in ns2, skill based movement is missing, aliens aren't as agile as they were thus them having leap early is needed to close the gap. lets not forget marines have SPRINT in early games, and pretty much throughout the whole game. making things only tougher for the aliens.
so you see, not only leap doesn't work as it did in ns1, but aliens aren't as agile as they were either - thus the problems begins.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And to add insult to the Skulks reduced agility, the geometry they're having to traverse is considerably more complex than it was in NS2, and considerably more difficult because of that.
Leap is an essential tool of the Skulk at this point. If it's getting nerfed, something else is needed to compensate, such as faster movement speed, or more recoil on fast-firing weapons.
Aren't skulks much larger in ns2 as well, making them obviously easier to hit? Mobility is much more of an issue then, so taking away leap without solving that problem is a huge issue.
Is the Skulks normal jump EVER used to any effect? Considering we can leap, isn't it a sort of useless/redundant ability? Jumping does nothing when you're on a wall or a ceiling, so it's only really usable on the ground, and in that case you're usually better off Leaping anyways.
Has anyone suggested making Leap the default Jump, but making it a Charged ability?
That is to say: you'd tap Jump (Spacebar) for a short inexpensive leap that covers maybe twice the distance that the default jump does now, but you can also hold/charge Jump briefly for the long expensive Leap we have now.
Or instead of charging: Spacebar for short Leap; Shift + Spacebar for long Leap.
<!--quoteo(post=1854239:date=Jun 18 2011, 03:47 PM:name=Seraphace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Seraphace @ Jun 18 2011, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854239"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a terrible terrible nerf.
As is, there is already way too much dependence for aliens on getting a second hive. If you're going to make skulk have to be 2nd hive researchable, then hives should be cheaper. As is, if marines coordinate and take down a new hive in the early stages of the game, it takes FOREVER to get back the proper resources to rebuild one. That means no creep spread, so no nodes. While we're talking about this, how about putting in a bit of fade time for the spread to whither away. Losing all RTs in the area is a massive hit to alien economy and hardly fair.
Now, with the skulk losing leap, how are they possibly supposed to deal with sentries down a hallway? Leaping behind them was absolutely critical. If they lose leap early game, then one turret down each hallway leading to marine start will completely dominate.
Shotguns are also stupid cheap, I think they should cost 20. 15 is too cheap, 25 is too expensive. As is you never see a marine anymore without a shotgun. Now you want to make marines be able to pick up guns? So marines can keep their tech, yet aliens lose all buildings connected to a hive within 10 seconds?
I understand fade feels a bit OP right now, but as is with these changes you're going to break aliens completely. You've given marines a way to deal with hydras, yet we can't touch sentry spam. All we're getting in the end is the onos for sentries, meanwhile marines will be getting jetpacks and miniguns.
DO NOT WANT<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, it seems tipped massively towards marine favour atm, and in the future.
Comments
This makes it a good tactical option that can't overwhelm the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I came up with the same suggestion in that other thread. Balance it using energy costs, high energy cost pre-upgrade, low energy cost (what it is now) post-upgrade. I'm not sure about 75% though, my suggestion was only 50%.
That beeing said, i'm happy to try it out in the next patch, i mean, thats what the beta is for (and its not like this was the first time in this beta that the leap changed)
23 kills 7 deaths with lmg
final stats 33 kills 8 deaths
Skulks are my favourite alien and even with good leap its still frustrating to be kill in 1 shot by a shotgun.
bad idea
A skulk without leap is super easy to kill as a marine. Even with leap.
*Sigh*
Well, sad day for skulks indeed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is what happens when devs dont even play the damn game and just read whine posts. take a look at 179 for example
I just finished playing a game where I was skulk for the majority of it, and for the heck of it I decided to play the ENTIRE game without leap. I easily maintained a 1:1 KDR, well after the other team had flamethrowers, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't complaining that skulks die to shotguns. I was simply pointing out my experiences. I haven't really seen any skulk domination even with leap. Perhaps you can maintain a 1:1 KDR, but that doesn't mean it's balanced. Have a look at the marine scores next time and I'm sure you'll see plenty of people who easily maintain 3:1 or greater without much effort. 1:1 doesn't mean you are dominating by any means, certainly not enough for a nerf.
yea ns1 is fun, ns2 is a practice on how to break that fun
You should read the opener post again. Not the community asked for a skulk nerf, the devs just want it so. Actually only 10 percent in this thread would like that. When it sucks they will change it again. It's called development, thats what developers do. This is not the 1.0, so do you have a problem with the concept of development? It's not like we will die tomorrow and never had a chance to get leap back after it has gone.
theres development and then theres changes that clearly make no sense. how about making changes that actually add to gameplay instead of shortsighted crap that just wastes time and REALLY unbalances the game.
How about drinking a tea or a beer or smoke some funny stuff and calm down a little? That's all I wanted to say. You are right at some point, but there's no need of agressiveness. The first whiner in this thread was....well you know who it was?
As is, there is already way too much dependence for aliens on getting a second hive. If you're going to make skulk have to be 2nd hive researchable, then hives should be cheaper. As is, if marines coordinate and take down a new hive in the early stages of the game, it takes FOREVER to get back the proper resources to rebuild one. That means no creep spread, so no nodes. While we're talking about this, how about putting in a bit of fade time for the spread to whither away. Losing all RTs in the area is a massive hit to alien economy and hardly fair.
Now, with the skulk losing leap, how are they possibly supposed to deal with sentries down a hallway? Leaping behind them was absolutely critical. If they lose leap early game, then one turret down each hallway leading to marine start will completely dominate.
Shotguns are also stupid cheap, I think they should cost 20. 15 is too cheap, 25 is too expensive. As is you never see a marine anymore without a shotgun. Now you want to make marines be able to pick up guns? So marines can keep their tech, yet aliens lose all buildings connected to a hive within 10 seconds?
I understand fade feels a bit OP right now, but as is with these changes you're going to break aliens completely. You've given marines a way to deal with hydras, yet we can't touch sentry spam. All we're getting in the end is the onos for sentries, meanwhile marines will be getting jetpacks and miniguns.
DO NOT WANT
Yes. But in NS1 you couldn't afford to equip the entire marine team with shotguns since they cost t.res, and even if you had a small enough team to do so you would be crippled economically if you didn't wipe out the aliens with that rush.
In NS2 the only reason not to shotgun rush and blow apart the 2nd hive before it finishes building (sealing the game pretty much) is lack of marine coordination.
Im all with you other than right here. They did add a way for aliens to deal with sentry spam and thats with the Gorges bile bomb (still requires 2 hives.) However, as a gorge, is kinda tricky to solo bile bomb turrets. When you have protection, like a skulk ambushing marines, then bile bombing becomes pretty ###### awesome and effective. Its just hard to stay alive as a gorge when teammates dont cover you. They dont know how effective and important a gorge is to finishing off a turtling marine base.
Other than that, your points are valid. I really don't want skulks leap being taken away. Even if they add a movement speed increase it will still feel like the skulk is lacking.
Quote - VeNem - yea ns1 is fun, ns2 is a practice on how to break that fun
I lol'd. 179 wasn't THAT bad.
Little do most realize that balance improves when performance improves. We should hold off on all these nerfs and buffs. Most of us still cant even fire a gun or bite a marine without losing some frames. Once those are fixed then we can fairly judge balance.
I've even managed to hold off 2 marines for awhile with two temp hydras. If I woulda had protection, would been GG. Its early in the game so perfect strategies vs sentry spam havent yet been thought out.
I agree though, until the aliens get Onos, turtling marines will be an issue.
should be focused more on adding features instead of implementing incorrect "balance" I mean they say stuff like they dont want to not focus on balance right now because they feel they dont want to waste a beta not doing so, but then they lower the shotgun cost and the flamethrower STILL doesnt function right. would be nice if they would keep what works and move on from there instead of playing guesswork with each patch. its frustrating because its like 1 step forward, 2 steps back, then wait for another 3 weeks while they undo the "fix"
In NS2 the only reason not to shotgun rush and blow apart the 2nd hive before it finishes building (sealing the game pretty much) is lack of marine coordination.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
exactly, there is almost zero penalty for shotgun usage right off the bat. any decent marine will keep his first shotgun long enough to be able to buy 2 more upon death. and with commander purchasing in the game, a nice com could even just drop a shotty.
If there isn't going to be movement skill in addition to leap, it's time to start thinking about how the leap upgrades get it to scale better through the round duration. I'd still expect trouble getting it to work on all levels of play though. Even with the crazy learning curve of bhop the aliens seemed to be more powerful on lower levels and slightly weaker on higher levels of play.
Meanwhile trying to make one form of leap go through all the gameplay doesn't seem viable to me. There's simply too many little things that don't either scale in player skill or in gameplay that progresses in tech and gear.
It better get some serious marine side upgrade capabilities somewhere later in the game, it needs a niche.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Rifle AltFire (Rifle-butt Melee) was intended to be the solution to the ARs vulnerability to Skulks. Would've given it more of a niche as well.
Don't know what ever happened to it.
couldn't agree more. they keep changing how leap is added, but they still haven't fixed the actual leap to work as it worked in ns1.
aliens aren't as agile as they were in ns1 either.
just compare the current leap vs ns1 leap, and tell me which is better. And which skulk is more agile?
they must unchain lifeforms like in ns1, aliens shouldn't depend on second hive to get fades or any higher lifeforms.
aliens could have fades with only one hive in ns1, heck even an onos with only one hive.
you forgetting something, in ns1 aliens were much more agile due to skill based movement - so even without leap they could easily close the gap WITHOUT leap.
once leap was gotten through second hive, things gotten better but aliens were fine without leap.
in ns2, skill based movement is missing, aliens aren't as agile as they were thus them having leap early is needed to close the gap.
lets not forget marines have SPRINT in early games, and pretty much throughout the whole game. making things only tougher for the aliens.
so you see, not only leap doesn't work as it did in ns1, but aliens aren't as agile as they were either - thus the problems begins.
once leap was gotten through second hive, things gotten better but aliens were fine without leap.
in ns2, skill based movement is missing, aliens aren't as agile as they were thus them having leap early is needed to close the gap.
lets not forget marines have SPRINT in early games, and pretty much throughout the whole game. making things only tougher for the aliens.
so you see, not only leap doesn't work as it did in ns1, but aliens aren't as agile as they were either - thus the problems begins.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And to add insult to the Skulks reduced agility, the geometry they're having to traverse is considerably more complex than it was in NS2, and considerably more difficult because of that.
Leap is an essential tool of the Skulk at this point. If it's getting nerfed, something else is needed to compensate, such as faster movement speed, or more recoil on fast-firing weapons.
Has anyone suggested making Leap the default Jump, but making it a Charged ability?
That is to say: you'd tap Jump (Spacebar) for a short inexpensive leap that covers maybe twice the distance that the default jump does now, but you can also hold/charge Jump briefly for the long expensive Leap we have now.
Or instead of charging: Spacebar for short Leap; Shift + Spacebar for long Leap.
I think the vast majority agrees that the last thing aliens need is movement nerfs.
As is, there is already way too much dependence for aliens on getting a second hive. If you're going to make skulk have to be 2nd hive researchable, then hives should be cheaper. As is, if marines coordinate and take down a new hive in the early stages of the game, it takes FOREVER to get back the proper resources to rebuild one. That means no creep spread, so no nodes. While we're talking about this, how about putting in a bit of fade time for the spread to whither away. Losing all RTs in the area is a massive hit to alien economy and hardly fair.
Now, with the skulk losing leap, how are they possibly supposed to deal with sentries down a hallway? Leaping behind them was absolutely critical. If they lose leap early game, then one turret down each hallway leading to marine start will completely dominate.
Shotguns are also stupid cheap, I think they should cost 20. 15 is too cheap, 25 is too expensive. As is you never see a marine anymore without a shotgun. Now you want to make marines be able to pick up guns? So marines can keep their tech, yet aliens lose all buildings connected to a hive within 10 seconds?
I understand fade feels a bit OP right now, but as is with these changes you're going to break aliens completely. You've given marines a way to deal with hydras, yet we can't touch sentry spam. All we're getting in the end is the onos for sentries, meanwhile marines will be getting jetpacks and miniguns.
DO NOT WANT<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, it seems tipped massively towards marine favour atm, and in the future.