Gorge Rushing
Smaug
Join Date: 2011-05-23 Member: 100283Members
Join Date: 2011-05-23 Member: 100283Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Khaara Opening Discussion</div>Hello,
Cydweithrediad and Frelge played a match earlier on this evening, which was very fun with some pretty intense moments, as a competative game should have!
When Frelge played as the Khaara, they had devised a very interesting strategy, which is as follows:
Quickly create a Whip for attack ups, rush gorge and run into the Marine base, making Infestation (Croach) before dropping Hydras in range of <b>primarily</b> the Infantry Portal, and then whatever else they can attack, Khaara comm runs to help gorges asap.
As you can hopefully imagine, this was quite a surprising move, yet pretty powerful - incessantly healing each other and healing the hydras, whilst the hydras were auto targetting everything else.
Discussing with v1nc afterwards, we thought it may be best to put up a topic about this kind of opening, but <b>not to complain about this strategy and beg for its removal, but to discuss the balance of this strategy, before coming to any final conclusion</b>. We are talking about this coming from a more competative angle where teamwork is simply expected, rather than a pub angle where teamwork of a high standard is not expected.
Now for my personal opinion on the matter:
I really do think that this kind of strategy should be kept and not removed, however timings should be considered carefully, and possibly the idea of Gorges infinitely healing each other and the hydras should also be looked at.
Part of what makes an E-sport game so exciting is the potential for one side to do an all-in move from the start, such as this gorge rush (if we were to compare it to SC2, we would probably compare it to the 7-roach rush opening), and that in itself makes me incredibly stoked to play this game at full release. However, infinitely healing hydras and gorges at the foot of your base is a bit intolerable, especially when all you have are AR's.
Cyd's opening as Marines was IP, Armory, RT and immediate shotguns and then apply more aggressive pressure, but annoyingly there were 4 - 5 gorges in our base before shotguns were even completed, even then, with one of us getting some close range shots on the gorges, having to duck in and out of cover, they were fully healed before we could deal any sort of finishing blow.
I wouldn't know what to suggest in particular, but I would also criticize our own play, insofar as Shotguns didn't start getting researched immediately (like, 5s delay from the moment armory got up, if that), and had we sent someone out to scout along the right side of the map (ns_summit), there would've been a chance to catch them evolving, or at the very least realize they are all coming up one side and prepare a better defence at the choke. Also, I would say that we could defend this strategy better now that we are aware that it is doable, which I believe is a point worth making (for instance, canceling some structures, placing a new IP in a safer place, bringing 2 players who I reactively sent to apply some pressure to the Khaara base back to Marine Start to fend off the gorges better - that said, sniping hydras with hitscan weapons is hard).
Maybe I would say that having Gorge and Lerk available without having to unlock it with Crag and Whip might've been the problem. The shotgun timing was simply too late, and as I mentioned before, we researched it very fast.
Another thing to make note is, if we as the marines did hold off the gorge rush, what that would imply going into the early-mid game. They didn't get a RT, whilst the marines did, so economically we would be ahead, but probably by not much (Team Res feels to me to come in at quite a high rate regardless), but also doing a gorge rush and finally holding it off, just following that up with Skulks incessantly rushing in I would imagine to be pretty powerful. The Marine's ability to turtle is simply not as good as the Khaara's ability, considering that Khaara, generally, are faster on foot than Marines, as well as Whips and Hydras being available almost immediately, but Marines have to unlock the Turrets with the Robo Facility, so that's more people having to build inbase and defend the power node, instead of, really, the marines reaping the rewards of the Khaara pulling such an all-in move and failing. Of course, <b>I am theorycrafting</b>, so I could be wrong, and I could simply be making assumptions based on lack of experience. I am also not factoring in that units are Human-controlled, and do not have the 100% accuracy of an AI unit (such as an army in any RTS, SC2, C&C etc).
--------------------
From what I could tell, Frelge do not particularly like this strategy, and wanted to try it out to see how valid it was, from the standpoint that for balance's sake it should not be a viable strategy, but I believe v1nc wants to give his insight to this, and possibly has a video of this strategy in motion, but apparantly Fraps died, so hopefully for the sake of discussing such a specific part of the game, it didn't corrupt the video.
We hope to see what everyone else has to say, and so the Devs know that clans are trying out interesting strategies and to consider them in the grand scheme of the game. NS2 is still heavily in development, but I believe that because this is specifically to discuss the opening part of the game, instead of the late part of the game where it's still yet to be developed and released, it was worth discussing.
And to repeat myself, I am looking at it from a competative standpoint; I could see this strategy happening in pubs, but only from a stacked team :P -- These are my opinions and not the opinions of the rest of Cyd and Frelge (unless they agree with me!).
Cydweithrediad and Frelge played a match earlier on this evening, which was very fun with some pretty intense moments, as a competative game should have!
When Frelge played as the Khaara, they had devised a very interesting strategy, which is as follows:
Quickly create a Whip for attack ups, rush gorge and run into the Marine base, making Infestation (Croach) before dropping Hydras in range of <b>primarily</b> the Infantry Portal, and then whatever else they can attack, Khaara comm runs to help gorges asap.
As you can hopefully imagine, this was quite a surprising move, yet pretty powerful - incessantly healing each other and healing the hydras, whilst the hydras were auto targetting everything else.
Discussing with v1nc afterwards, we thought it may be best to put up a topic about this kind of opening, but <b>not to complain about this strategy and beg for its removal, but to discuss the balance of this strategy, before coming to any final conclusion</b>. We are talking about this coming from a more competative angle where teamwork is simply expected, rather than a pub angle where teamwork of a high standard is not expected.
Now for my personal opinion on the matter:
I really do think that this kind of strategy should be kept and not removed, however timings should be considered carefully, and possibly the idea of Gorges infinitely healing each other and the hydras should also be looked at.
Part of what makes an E-sport game so exciting is the potential for one side to do an all-in move from the start, such as this gorge rush (if we were to compare it to SC2, we would probably compare it to the 7-roach rush opening), and that in itself makes me incredibly stoked to play this game at full release. However, infinitely healing hydras and gorges at the foot of your base is a bit intolerable, especially when all you have are AR's.
Cyd's opening as Marines was IP, Armory, RT and immediate shotguns and then apply more aggressive pressure, but annoyingly there were 4 - 5 gorges in our base before shotguns were even completed, even then, with one of us getting some close range shots on the gorges, having to duck in and out of cover, they were fully healed before we could deal any sort of finishing blow.
I wouldn't know what to suggest in particular, but I would also criticize our own play, insofar as Shotguns didn't start getting researched immediately (like, 5s delay from the moment armory got up, if that), and had we sent someone out to scout along the right side of the map (ns_summit), there would've been a chance to catch them evolving, or at the very least realize they are all coming up one side and prepare a better defence at the choke. Also, I would say that we could defend this strategy better now that we are aware that it is doable, which I believe is a point worth making (for instance, canceling some structures, placing a new IP in a safer place, bringing 2 players who I reactively sent to apply some pressure to the Khaara base back to Marine Start to fend off the gorges better - that said, sniping hydras with hitscan weapons is hard).
Maybe I would say that having Gorge and Lerk available without having to unlock it with Crag and Whip might've been the problem. The shotgun timing was simply too late, and as I mentioned before, we researched it very fast.
Another thing to make note is, if we as the marines did hold off the gorge rush, what that would imply going into the early-mid game. They didn't get a RT, whilst the marines did, so economically we would be ahead, but probably by not much (Team Res feels to me to come in at quite a high rate regardless), but also doing a gorge rush and finally holding it off, just following that up with Skulks incessantly rushing in I would imagine to be pretty powerful. The Marine's ability to turtle is simply not as good as the Khaara's ability, considering that Khaara, generally, are faster on foot than Marines, as well as Whips and Hydras being available almost immediately, but Marines have to unlock the Turrets with the Robo Facility, so that's more people having to build inbase and defend the power node, instead of, really, the marines reaping the rewards of the Khaara pulling such an all-in move and failing. Of course, <b>I am theorycrafting</b>, so I could be wrong, and I could simply be making assumptions based on lack of experience. I am also not factoring in that units are Human-controlled, and do not have the 100% accuracy of an AI unit (such as an army in any RTS, SC2, C&C etc).
--------------------
From what I could tell, Frelge do not particularly like this strategy, and wanted to try it out to see how valid it was, from the standpoint that for balance's sake it should not be a viable strategy, but I believe v1nc wants to give his insight to this, and possibly has a video of this strategy in motion, but apparantly Fraps died, so hopefully for the sake of discussing such a specific part of the game, it didn't corrupt the video.
We hope to see what everyone else has to say, and so the Devs know that clans are trying out interesting strategies and to consider them in the grand scheme of the game. NS2 is still heavily in development, but I believe that because this is specifically to discuss the opening part of the game, instead of the late part of the game where it's still yet to be developed and released, it was worth discussing.
And to repeat myself, I am looking at it from a competative standpoint; I could see this strategy happening in pubs, but only from a stacked team :P -- These are my opinions and not the opinions of the rest of Cyd and Frelge (unless they agree with me!).
Comments
The point of the game is to be enjoyable, if the game ends as soon as it starts, it is not enjoyable.
1. Marines spawn far too slowly
2. IP is way too weak
That means that any alien assault that kills enough marines can cause a bottleneck at the IP, which can be quickly destroyed.
Personally, I think the marine comm should be able to use a rechargeable 'mass spawn' that allows all dead marines to spawn instantly around the command station (like how everyone spawns at the beginning of the match).
It'd probably fix a lot if marines and aliens both spawned with base defences. Aliens get hydras covering the hive from elevated positions on all sides, marines get sentries covering the IP and power node.
Also that mass spawn power is called beacon in NS1 and it's in the observatory.
1. Marines spawn far too slowly
2. IP is way too weak
That means that any alien assault that kills enough marines can cause a bottleneck at the IP, which can be quickly destroyed.
Personally, I think the marine comm should be able to use a rechargeable 'mass spawn' that allows all dead marines to spawn instantly around the command station (like how everyone spawns at the beginning of the match).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is the reason the stats are showing a large favour towards the aliens. They can take out the IP or power to completely stop the marines from spawning and win the game a lot easier than the marines can.
I remember those days.
All the rines stayed in base and built turrets while a few went out for the first few nodes.
The point of the game is to be enjoyable, if the game ends as soon as it starts, it is not enjoyable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In competative play the game need to have the possibility of a rush. But it has to be a gamble so if youre doing the rush your pretty much all in.
Else there is no need for scouting and all games look the same all the time.
The gorge rush is strong now because the gorge is very strong in the current build. He can heal himself and others very fast almsot faster than you can kill him even when he is by himself. The fact that gorge cost Pres makes it not enough penelty to the team for doing this rush because they can still get there first RT if the commander joins the rush after its built.
Balancing is needed here for healspray, hydra cost and gorge evolve cost.
Well, NS1 was, and the goal of NS2 is to be a e-sport too. What made you think that was not the goal of the developers?
Else there is no need for scouting and all games look the same all the time.
The gorge rush is strong now because the gorge is very strong in the current build. He can heal himself and others very fast almsot faster than you can kill him even when he is by himself. The fact that gorge cost Pres makes it not enough penelty to the team for doing this rush because they can still get there first RT if the commander joins the rush after its built.
Balancing is needed here for healspray, hydra cost and gorge evolve cost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, Gorges are hard to kill mainly because of the bug that allows them faster movement by jumping. I assure you that a stationary Gorge dies in less than three seconds to one marine, with healing spray or not.
Rushing may be a valid strategy, that I agree. On the other hand, the marine spawn is currently too vulnerable at the start of the round, forcing the marines to play defensively. I suppose this is balanced in the current form of the game, since aliens are slow at expanding early game, due to the limitations of DI, and hives take three long minutes to build.
Of course its gonna be an e-sport if the developers dont listen to the noobwhiners. It has/will have everything that makes a great e-sport.
Teamplay, skillbased play, exciting combat and so on.
Now about the strategies, this one was though by PhY and now we know it works because of :
- Surprise marine team
- Gorge need to stay together (no heroes)
Our build order was the following : (6v6 game - summit map) (PhY correct me if I'm wrong)
1/ com build wipe and upgrade attack +1
2/ in the same time 5 players run at crossroad and evolve into gorge under bridge
3/ when evolve gorge done, rush by ventilation
4/ drop infest and build 3 hydras near IP (sorry for the 4 hydras, mistake from us D: - rules cup)
5/ win
<!--quoteo(post=1854597:date=Jun 20 2011, 01:35 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 20 2011, 01:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854597"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't really think there is any value in any sort of opening which allows the game to finish so quickly.
The point of the game is to be enjoyable, if the game ends as soon as it starts, it is not enjoyable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think your wrong (i'm not talking public game but competitive game). Why ? Because it's double-edged. If marines team was able to counter the gorge by SG or bad play by gorges, the game could totally turn into marine advantage. (cause lost of time, lost res by evolving in gorge)
I make a link between ns2 and sc2, you know this type of tactics are called "All'in". Some people say it's unfair but it's a part of game and you need to be prepare to counter this thing. This is a part of ns2 possibilities and complexity.
<!--quoteo(post=1854676:date=Jun 20 2011, 10:43 AM:name=jkflipflop)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jkflipflop @ Jun 20 2011, 10:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that NS2 isn't meant to be competitive. Referring to it as an e-sport is laughable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
MOU + AHAHAH = MOUAHAHAH
it's a joke isn't it ?
edit : I'm afraid UWE didn't care a lot about ns2 competitive game (I hope i'm wrong) but none of them post on cup 6v6 thread which i'm trying to make it something serious and begin e-sport spirit of this awesome game. I know you're working a lot and not wasting your time at beach but please just a little post could be cool to support us :D
I make a link between ns2 and sc2, you know this type of tactics are called "All'in". Some people say it's unfair but it's a part of game and you need to be prepare to counter this thing. This is a part of ns2 possibilities and complexity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And the game still ends in five minutes.
Why would I waste my time on a game that does that?
I would not want to win or lose by doing that, because either way it is a waste of time starting a game if you are just going to finish it instantly.
Having variety in games is fine, but that's sort of like saying that the game crashing five minutes in and forcing a restart is a good thing because it adds variety. There are some sorts of variety that aren't at all desirable.
If ending the game in five minutes is a valid strategy, if anything it detracts from variety. In a 30 minute game there is room for all sorts of things to happen, all sort of different things, whereas if the game either goes 'aliens rush to marine start, game ends/aliens rush to marine start, die, marines box aliens in and kill them, game ends' that is a pretty boring and monotonous game I just played.
The only people it appeals to are people who don't really care about the game and just want to win somethig, anything, in which case go play rock paper scissors, you can win that in a few seconds.
EDIT: Forbitting that is like "no people, you have to play the game how we want, so we set up sentries from the start on". Then I would not enjoy it anymore. "Exploits" are cool ways to make the game even more complex than devs could have imagined.
Wow Chris; I always had you pinned as a more objective thinker...
Your statement is in no way constructive. Telling other people to go somewhere else for placing value in something (the merit of a fast tactic) other than what you enjoy is downright arrogant.
People enjoy playing this game for a multitude of reasons (one of them being to enjoy a highly competitive game) and they are entitled to exactly. Why does your subjective opinion of the value of this tactic matter?
The point of playing a competitive game like NS2, for a large majority of individuals, is to compete, and to win. You can dislike a tactic all you want, but it doesn't invalidate it's effectiveness. I think everyone who enjoys playing this game should be interested in educating themselves about the entire range of tactics, whether they're fun or not, because unless you plan on confining yourself to a bubble, you should expect to be challenged when playing a complex competitive game.
And we aren't just six people who are going to go, "Oh, you don't like that we have more fun from winning, and don't let altruism or "honor" get in the way of meeting an objective? Very well, we'll just go play Rock, Paper, Scissors."
If ending the game in five minutes is a valid strategy, if anything it detracts from variety. In a 30 minute game there is room for all sorts of things to happen, all sort of different things, whereas if the game either goes 'aliens rush to marine start, game ends/aliens rush to marine start, die, marines box aliens in and kill them, game ends' that is a pretty boring and monotonous game I just played.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand where you're coming from. A viable strategy, if it wins you the game instantly, won't just be a "viable" strategy anymore, rather, it will become the "metagame". And again, you're right, we don't want that happening.
But you seem to be coming from the standpoint that Gorge Rushing will have a success rate of 100%. So far, Frelge have attempted this strategy once, and it succeeded, therefore, statistically, it does have a 100% winrate, however, testing this once and concluding it as hard evidence is not very scientific!
It would be interesting to see how this strategy evolved over several games, and how the Marines end up responding to it. The point I was making in the original post is that I think the timings are off - shotguns weren't up in time to fend them off in a comfortable position, as well as having to tech to static defences to stop any additional reinforcements from the Kharaa if we did manage to pick a few off.
Ideally, this strategy should only work 1/5th of the time, maybe less, and we're talking about each match being almost independant of each other. What I mean is, the more times a team sees this happening, the more likely they are to fend it off in future games, and it's at that point it becomes interesting, because a team will throw in this all-in strategy very rarely to throw their opponants off in the future. It leads to incredibly intense games, for each side involved, and as well as from a spectator's point of view - watching two sides struggling for their survival in a game is one of the major thrills of spectating a game (even in other sports), especially when it happens so sudden, early and unexpectedly. In essence, the marines should be content with their early loss if they know they were outplayed by a strategy they know they should be able to beat with some effort.
But honestly, this is derailing this a bit, the main thing I want to come back to is how to make this a real "all-in" strat, and for it not to become a "metagame" (as much as I hate that term) strategy that is used to simply win 100% every game. As I said before, shotguns came after the hydras were up and in our base, with 5 gorges in marine start healing everything to the point that the marines couldn't kill anything.
Some of the points that were made were Marine start being incredibly hard to defend early on and should be given extra stuff (not a huge fan of this... how you choose to defend your base should affect how you play into the midgame, being given early defences in your base effectively puts you on a certain path), that Gorges are simply powerful in the current NS2 build, that Gorges' abilities should be tweaked, that being given the ability to mutate into Gorge + Lerk off the bat is just asking for Gorge Rushing, that Marines spawning so slowly against Kharaa spawning quickly is imbalanced (This, coupled with Gorge available straight away, I believe is a key point, IMO) and also marines should be given a free IP at the start (Meaning TRes can be dumped elsewhere to prepare for such a rush).
:D
1/ build an armory and search sg
2/ build an IP
3/ build RT ...
Cause when we start match, all players are in and not waitting for an IP to spawn at the begining.
I think the few seconds you ll have can unlock SG before gorge arrive.
Still an experiment, but we should try this before UWE change anything about timing SG
What do you think about that ?
edit : or maybe try a wall racks facto in front of the ramp :D
I think the small time frame is negligable, also reaction to the gorge rush is also a factor - whatever the build order, we would have to switch the strategy to get the shotgun in the fastest method possible if we saw it coming; that said, I think most marine openings involve getting fast shotguns seeing as shotguns are very powerful against Skulks and Gorges, but still :P
Also IP and Armory are built pretty much simultaniously (2 marines on each building) + 1 getting sent to build the RT, so the order between armoury + IP is negligable as far as I can see if they are built at the same time (naturally you'd put down the armoury first, but that's only a 1 - 2 second difference if you know the hotkeys). It's also about reaching the choke point with your shotguns at the correct entrance before the gorges get past it. Gorges could approach from several angles simultaniously but I would imagine that would weaken the all-in by quite a big amount.
Still, it would be worth doing this build over and over to see how far Marines can get in holding it off, trying to implement different methods! Better to test than to theorycraft :P
Another idea if it came to actually changing anything in the game, an upgrade for Gorges' infestation spread to last longer, so it initially starts out lasting only 20s, but upgrading it will make it last the duration it does now. It would cause the all-in to be significantly weaker, but if Khaara invest and wait a little longer for the up before doing the all-in, it would be a bit harder to execute but if executed well can cripple the marines and by that point marines should be able to deal with it even if the Gorges successfully get in the Marine Base. Sadly that would mean Gorges costing alot more, probably making their role alot weaker towards the mid to late game. Just an idle thought though!
1/ com build wipe and upgrade attack +1
2/ in the same time 5 players run at crossroad and evolve into gorge under bridge
3/ when evolve gorge done, rush by ventilation
4/ drop infest and build 3 hydras near IP (sorry for the 4 hydras, mistake from us D: - rules cup)
5/ win<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
4 bis/ drop the 2nd RT (it's just for the counter rush)
5/ attack lvl 2
6/ skulk in hive come to help
7/ win
EDIT: Forbitting that is like "no people, you have to play the game how we want, so we set up sentries from the start on". Then I would not enjoy it anymore. "Exploits" are cool ways to make the game even more complex than devs could have imagined.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't ever seen a gorge rush, probably because nobody thought to try it, but the complaint stands against any sort of rueh strategy designed to end the game as quickly as possible, or any sort of issue that can cause the game to end rapidly, such as it being unclear if you are going to have a commander, players not realising they need to build an IP, those sorts of things.
It is never beneficial, ending a game quickly is boring, it does not contribute anything positive to the game, therefore if it is preventable it should be.
<!--quoteo(post=1854732:date=Jun 20 2011, 04:04 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jun 20 2011, 04:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854732"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow Chris; I always had you pinned as a more objective thinker...
Your statement is in no way constructive. Telling other people to go somewhere else for placing value in something (the merit of a fast tactic) other than what you enjoy is downright arrogant.
People enjoy playing this game for a multitude of reasons (one of them being to enjoy a highly competitive game) and they are entitled to exactly. Why does your subjective opinion of the value of this tactic matter?
The point of playing a competitive game like NS2, for a large majority of individuals, is to compete, and to win. You can dislike a tactic all you want, but it doesn't invalidate it's effectiveness. I think everyone who enjoys playing this game should be interested in educating themselves about the entire range of tactics, whether they're fun or not, because unless you plan on confining yourself to a bubble, you should expect to be challenged when playing a complex competitive game.
And we aren't just six people who are going to go, "Oh, you don't like that we have more fun from winning, and don't let altruism or "honor" get in the way of meeting an objective? Very well, we'll just go play Rock, Paper, Scissors."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes it is arrogant, to voice an opinion with the belief that it is correct is arrogant, I don't consider this an undesirable quality.
Competition is fine, as long as it doesn't get in the way, the interesting thing about competitiveness is that from what I understand, most people who I would describe as competitive derive their enjoyment from overcoming a challenge. Now the thing about five minute victories is that they aren't a challenge, they're a guess, you guess the enemy won't be prepared for them and if you guessed right, you win, if you guess wrong, you lose. It is no more challenging than rock paper scissors, so I would argue that the people who enjoy that sort of thing aren't really 'competitive' as much as they are looking for acknowledgement or something, no matter how meaningless or superficial the game saying 'you win!' is. If you change the game so that winning always requires a concerted effort, by removing these guesswork related strategies, you should improve the game for the competitive players, because they would always be guaranteed a challenge of some sort, even if it just means they have to win three or four fights instead of one, it's still an improvement.
The idea that 'it's part of the game' is one that a lot of people take, and I always wonder why nobody says 'but you can change the game so that it isn't'. Yes rush strategies are currently very viable, yes you could make them impractical by putting defences and an IP in the starting buildings, yes this would make the game better because people now have to find new, more interesting strategies beyond 'guess the enemy won't be defending'.
I must've misinterpreted, because I can definitely agree with you there. In fact that's probably the most objective argument against early rush strategies I've heard to date.
Apologies.
One possible nerf I could see working is: Decrease Gorge-infestations lifespan depending on distance from "real" infestation. Tweak the numbers a bit and hey presto! it is no longer possible for Gorges to infest (effectively) in MS, early game.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ywqUbYazwM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ywqUbYazwM</a>
tx to Expat.
Apologies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ehh, don't worry about it. I don't really care for challenge myself as much as I want engagement. Challenge can be engaging, but so can a lot of other things. Certainly rushing has never felt at all engaging to me, I don't do it even if I know it will win the game, no point, no fun.
I will not stand for this Blasphemy!
Gorgerushing is at least fun when done once and even more fun if it fails :P
It is never beneficial, ending a game quickly is boring, it does not contribute anything positive to the game, therefore if it is preventable it should be.
Yes it is arrogant, to voice an opinion with the belief that it is correct is arrogant, I don't consider this an undesirable quality.
Competition is fine, as long as it doesn't get in the way, the interesting thing about competitiveness is that from what I understand, most people who I would describe as competitive derive their enjoyment from overcoming a challenge. Now the thing about five minute victories is that they aren't a challenge, they're a guess, you guess the enemy won't be prepared for them and if you guessed right, you win, if you guess wrong, you lose. It is no more challenging than rock paper scissors, so I would argue that the people who enjoy that sort of thing aren't really 'competitive' as much as they are looking for acknowledgement or something, no matter how meaningless or superficial the game saying 'you win!' is. If you change the game so that winning always requires a concerted effort, by removing these guesswork related strategies, you should improve the game for the competitive players, because they would always be guaranteed a challenge of some sort, even if it just means they have to win three or four fights instead of one, it's still an improvement.
The idea that 'it's part of the game' is one that a lot of people take, and I always wonder why nobody says 'but you can change the game so that it isn't'. Yes rush strategies are currently very viable, yes you could make them impractical by putting defences and an IP in the starting buildings, yes this would make the game better because people now have to find new, more interesting strategies beyond 'guess the enemy won't be defending'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont know if you have ever played Starcraft 2 but if you do your probably the guy who plays the novice maps and thats fine. But most people wants to play the reugular maps were rush is a posibility bacause this takes more of the player/team to always be on edge and scout for early attacks. Its quite satisfying planning a rush and executing it to perfection and its even more satisfying defending a well planned rush.
When the game gets out they could make it the same way SC2 did a novice mode for public and a regular mode for public and clanplay.
Novice maps are maps were there are rocks in the way that must be destroyed before you can attack you opponents base making it impossible to rush.
if you spot in vent you can build quick seconde ip and blok the base entrance you can with 4-5-6 marine try to focus kill 1-2 gorge.
after that with 2 ip VS 3 gorge you can keep up.