<!--quoteo(post=1857639:date=Jul 2 2011, 07:31 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jul 2 2011, 07:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857639"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm against any artificial bonuses for moving in groups beyond those that are naturally created by moving in groups.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Same... ...for the most part.
I would like the ability to see where your team-mates are shooting, so you could choose to focus fire, or cover a different area. However, this would ostensibly be available regardless of whether you were in a squad (but useless, of course, if you were by yourself).
<!--quoteo(post=1857725:date=Jul 3 2011, 08:13 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jul 3 2011, 08:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857725"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I could use a line being drawn from each marine to their given waypoint in commander mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nice.
Also, dynamic squads are just not working out as intended, with the current implementation. This is primarily due to lack of <b>persistence</b>.
Yes, they're a little too dynamic right now. Dynamic squad membership should persist for maybe 10-60 seconds even if not "connected" to your squad, and only if your squad membership has aged past that should you be free to auto-join another squad. Also maybe an ability for the commander to lock squads. The lack of persistence right now leads to lack of committal.
Being in a squad at this point <b>doesn't matter.</b> I still can't figure out what the thinking was for a dynamic squad system. The system needs to make you think about being in a squad and decide to be in it for your <b>own</b> benefit. The benefit of the team isn't enough for most players lol. I don't know if i want lines all over my map for each marine that i give a way point too there's enough stuff on it already but it wouldn't be so bad if there was 4-5 lines for each squad, rather just have a icon dropped for each squad position
To the post below i agree with most all of that... minus the squad leader part, id rather the commander promote them. I don't think people will think too much of it the squad leader wouldn't be personally gaining from the position only gaining responsibility.
The way Empires (HL2 RTS/FPS mod) does it is actually very good: <a href="http://wiki.empiresmod.com/index.php?title=Squads" target="_blank">http://wiki.empiresmod.com/index.php?title=Squads</a>
<b>Joining a Squad</b> - Squads can be joined during the warmup phase of the match (while the Commander vote is also taking place) - Anyone can join a Squad from Alpha to Zeta - The first person to join a Squad becomes the Squad Leader - The Squad Menu groups players by squad, with non-squadded players being listed in a separate pane - The Squad Leader can invite other players to join the Squad - The Squad Leader can lock their Squad - A locked Squad cannot be joined
<b>Squad UI</b> - The Squad Leader can set squad-only waypoints selected from the map or from the first-person view - The Commander can set squad-only waypoints selected from the map view - All fellow squad members have IFF (is friend or foe) indicators over their heads in the first-person view - Your own Squad's IFF indicators are coloured differently to other squads - Your own Squad's IFF indicators are colour-coded based on the member's status (Green=Idle / Yellow=Attacking / Red=Receiving Fire or Dead) - Your own Squad's IFF indicators are drawn at the top level of the HUD (i.e. they are not hidden by the 3D environment)
<b>Squad Skills</b> - The Squad Leader can choose from proximity-restricted (aura) or time-restricted (global) buffs as the team levels up - As soon as the Squad has 3 members, the Squad Leader can choose the Squad's first skill - All Squad Members earn a bonus rank point for each 10 rank points earnt by the Squad as a whole
The main benefit to having it set up before the round starts is that when you spawn (especially as a new player) you are able to see which direction everyone is going in (map navigation) and have a squad of other players to follow (survival; learning by example instead of trial and error). On top of this the Commander (or the Squad Leaders) can immediately type/VOIP the first set of objectives to the team. When you respawn, you can check your HUD and start walking in the direction of your squadmates so you're not cut off for too long and don't get lost easily.
Another benefit is latecomers to the game will automatically get a few extra bonus points for joining a veteran Squad. E.g. if the Squad has 30 points between it, the new joiner will get an extra 3 bonus points. This could allow late joiners to access a Shotgun straight off in the lategame instead of struggling with an LMG.
<!--quoteo(post=1857776:date=Jul 3 2011, 02:19 PM:name=xVisions)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xVisions @ Jul 3 2011, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857776"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To the post below i agree with most all of that... minus the squad leader part, id rather the commander promote them. I don't think people will think too much of it the squad leader wouldn't be personally gaining from the position only gaining responsibility.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The reason it works better if the Commander doesn't promote them is because the system regulates itself - it's democratic.
Don't like your Squad Leader? Join another Squad. Poorer Squad Leaders will have less members and subsequently rank up more slowly. Level-headed, communicative and veteran players will tend to be trusted with the Squad Leader role, kind of like a junior Commander position (it shares a few of the same skills, like communication and game awareness).
Same thing happens with Squad Members - if you're making trouble nobody will have you in their squad and you're going to lose the benefits that friendlier players enjoy.
I believe having squads be anything other than a name you call a group of marines would be a mistake. As the beta is now maybe a great idea but add advance tech such as HA, JPs, or other toys and it destroys balance. You would have to give aliens a pack bonus and thus negate what you just tried to accomplish.
In NS1 Squads were encouraged only when assaulting hive in pubs, but in organised play it was crucial. Sure you would have your sneaky Phase Gate ninja, but other than that... an alone marine was a dead marine. Nothing was more annoying in a pub match as 2-3 marines working together constantly.
What i have noticed in NS2 is i rely heavily on the minimap. Why you ask? When i am repairing those god awful power nodes i have that up since it shows me on my map and hostiles even if they are not in my line of site. Combine that with others actually using their flash lights and you have all the benefit you need. Dont force people to play together with hard locked mechanics like squads or minor benefits. Make the aliens enough of a threat where in most situations 1 marine vs 1 alien = dead marine.
The marine's role is the aggressor, cleansing the area of alien scum. There should be nothing better than to step into alien territory (DI all around) and have 3-4 teammates with you. On that note just giving Aliens hive site for anything on their DI would push rines to have to group up and work together without gimmicks.
As limited as P.Res are I'd think they would make a great motivator...
Change the RFK reward from a random 1 - 3 to some fraction of the dying entities point value (25%). Then introduce Squad RFK, wherein each Squad Member recieves some smaller fraction of the entities point value for being present in a Squad during a kill (10%). ... Profit?
<!--quoteo(post=1857781:date=Jul 3 2011, 02:42 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Jul 3 2011, 02:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe having squads be anything other than a name you call a group of marines would be a mistake. As the beta is now maybe a great idea but add advance tech such as HA, JPs, or other toys and it destroys balance. You would have to give aliens a pack bonus and thus negate what you just tried to accomplish.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The example I gave is from Empires which in terms of mechanics is symmetrical across the teams. However, I don't see why one team having a pack bonus means the other team should also have one. Sure, it'd be harder to balance otherwise but I'm sure there is a more interesting asymmetrical solution.
Some of the current Alien upgrades already give less formal pack bonuses. I like the idea of something more organic that feeds through the Alien structures. Such as 'touching' a certain type of friendly structure to gain a temporary boost in some area. In fact you could do that with all of the old NS1 structures: touch a Defence Chamber to get an 'overheal' before going into combat. touch an Sensory Chamber to get temporary cloak and, as mentioned, Motion Chambers would give a temporary speed boost. This way Aliens can still get a boost en masse if they choose to (on defence this would be particularly effective), but it's more versatile than the Marine bonuses (or more limited depending on how you look at it).
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
edited July 2011
informational bonuses could be already very powerful. if you could see everything thats in los of your squad members (as motion tracking blimps?) through walls, display their armor, health of team mates, if they have a welder, if they are currently reloading.
i like scotties idea, but i would like to extend it even a little bit: display some arrows on the side of your screen, if the discovered mt blimps are not in your current view direction. like a warning system: everyone who sees an alien in your squad alerts the whole squad and you see where the alien is (instead of opening the mini-map...)
being in a squad should make you feel more save (welder support, covering fire, better perception) instead of empowering you with some buffs.
you could even make a reasearch-able upgrade out of it (instead of motion tracking), called "<b><i><!--coloro:#8B0000--><span style="color:#8B0000"><!--/coloro-->squad interlinked visors<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></i></b>" where visual informations captured by a marines visor would be send to all marines in their squad. maybe to prevent this upgrade to be a featured "wall hack" you alternatively stick with only the arrows (displayed on the side of your screen) representing only the horizontal direction of the enemy. (so you dont know if you should aim upwards or downwards unless you really spot the enemy)
to summarize the squad bonuses: - welder support (if present in your team) - covering fire - squad interlinked visors
edit:
screenshot to show how it could look like ingame (its only a sketch done in paintbrush!):
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
edit2: what i forget to mention and is actually the main idea of squad interlinked visors: its not working when you are alone, meaning that you only get notifications of enemies which are detected by <u>other</u> players in your squad.
I don't like the indicators for enemies or shouting out the locations to get them. then I could just spam the shout button (or if it automated) and see skulks that try to hide in dark areas and still see them because they are in my FOV, where I normally might pass by because they used shadows cleverly.
see where your fellow squad mates are and their hp/armour is all you need.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
well its an idea how to give the (already present) dynamic squad system some purpose, and if you combine it with an upgrade you can reach two goals: a) have an upgrade that increases your perception, which i generally like (but motion tracking was to good) b) gives the squad system a purpose other than the natural benefits of sticking together
i had also some more radical ideas how to give the squad system purpose, one would be that every medpak picked up by a squad member would heal the whole squad by some amount (10hp?)
No doubt, informational bonuses can be very powerful - but whether that potential is exploited is up to the players themselves. Not only that, but informational bonuses aren't merely artificial, like a +armour bonus would be.
One way of displaying my "focus fire indicator" suggestion, is, for example, to have tracer rounds. Another is to quite simply highlight on the screen whatever is being damaged by your team-mates.
IMO the commander should be able to either select random marines or define squads and use that to issue orders. It would be really annoying if issuing orders were confined to dynamic squads.
Dynamic squads could be perhaps used purely for a personal benefit for the marines. If you have a personal benefit for being a member of a defined squad then what happens if you aren't in the vicinity?
A bonus could be informational such as visibility of enemies. But I think a personal res bonus for kills on top of the existing bonus would be good for dynamic squads. A damage, respawn or health bonus is probably too much.
<!--quoteo(post=1857920:date=Jul 4 2011, 10:04 AM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Jul 4 2011, 10:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i had also some more radical ideas how to give the squad system purpose, one would be that every medpak picked up by a squad member would heal the whole squad by some amount (10hp?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suggested increasing the area/range of the heal effect a while back, as a possible solution for not only encouraging teamwork but also raising the Medspam skillcap.
Healing could be divided among all Marines in the Squad, such that the total amount healed does not increase with the number of players healed.
Comments
Same...
...for the most part.
I would like the ability to see where your team-mates are shooting, so you could choose to focus fire, or cover a different area. However, this would ostensibly be available regardless of whether you were in a squad (but useless, of course, if you were by yourself).
<!--quoteo(post=1857725:date=Jul 3 2011, 08:13 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jul 3 2011, 08:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857725"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I could use a line being drawn from each marine to their given waypoint in commander mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice.
Also, dynamic squads are just not working out as intended, with the current implementation. This is primarily due to lack of <b>persistence</b>.
To the post below i agree with most all of that... minus the squad leader part, id rather the commander promote them. I don't think people will think too much of it the squad leader wouldn't be personally gaining from the position only gaining responsibility.
<b>Joining a Squad</b>
- Squads can be joined during the warmup phase of the match (while the Commander vote is also taking place)
- Anyone can join a Squad from Alpha to Zeta
- The first person to join a Squad becomes the Squad Leader
- The Squad Menu groups players by squad, with non-squadded players being listed in a separate pane
- The Squad Leader can invite other players to join the Squad
- The Squad Leader can lock their Squad
- A locked Squad cannot be joined
<b>Squad UI</b>
- The Squad Leader can set squad-only waypoints selected from the map or from the first-person view
- The Commander can set squad-only waypoints selected from the map view
- All fellow squad members have IFF (is friend or foe) indicators over their heads in the first-person view
- Your own Squad's IFF indicators are coloured differently to other squads
- Your own Squad's IFF indicators are colour-coded based on the member's status (Green=Idle / Yellow=Attacking / Red=Receiving Fire or Dead)
- Your own Squad's IFF indicators are drawn at the top level of the HUD (i.e. they are not hidden by the 3D environment)
<b>Squad Skills</b>
- The Squad Leader can choose from proximity-restricted (aura) or time-restricted (global) buffs as the team levels up
- As soon as the Squad has 3 members, the Squad Leader can choose the Squad's first skill
- All Squad Members earn a bonus rank point for each 10 rank points earnt by the Squad as a whole
The main benefit to having it set up before the round starts is that when you spawn (especially as a new player) you are able to see which direction everyone is going in (map navigation) and have a squad of other players to follow (survival; learning by example instead of trial and error). On top of this the Commander (or the Squad Leaders) can immediately type/VOIP the first set of objectives to the team. When you respawn, you can check your HUD and start walking in the direction of your squadmates so you're not cut off for too long and don't get lost easily.
Another benefit is latecomers to the game will automatically get a few extra bonus points for joining a veteran Squad. E.g. if the Squad has 30 points between it, the new joiner will get an extra 3 bonus points. This could allow late joiners to access a Shotgun straight off in the lategame instead of struggling with an LMG.
Personally I think it's a brilliant mechanic.
Don't like your Squad Leader? Join another Squad. Poorer Squad Leaders will have less members and subsequently rank up more slowly. Level-headed, communicative and veteran players will tend to be trusted with the Squad Leader role, kind of like a junior Commander position (it shares a few of the same skills, like communication and game awareness).
Same thing happens with Squad Members - if you're making trouble nobody will have you in their squad and you're going to lose the benefits that friendlier players enjoy.
In NS1 Squads were encouraged only when assaulting hive in pubs, but in organised play it was crucial. Sure you would have your sneaky Phase Gate ninja, but other than that... an alone marine was a dead marine. Nothing was more annoying in a pub match as 2-3 marines working together constantly.
What i have noticed in NS2 is i rely heavily on the minimap. Why you ask? When i am repairing those god awful power nodes i have that up since it shows me on my map and hostiles even if they are not in my line of site. Combine that with others actually using their flash lights and you have all the benefit you need. Dont force people to play together with hard locked mechanics like squads or minor benefits. Make the aliens enough of a threat where in most situations 1 marine vs 1 alien = dead marine.
The marine's role is the aggressor, cleansing the area of alien scum. There should be nothing better than to step into alien territory (DI all around) and have 3-4 teammates with you. On that note just giving Aliens hive site for anything on their DI would push rines to have to group up and work together without gimmicks.
Just my two cents.
Change the RFK reward from a random 1 - 3 to some fraction of the dying entities point value (25%).
Then introduce Squad RFK, wherein each Squad Member recieves some smaller fraction of the entities point value for being present in a Squad during a kill (10%).
...
Profit?
Some of the current Alien upgrades already give less formal pack bonuses. I like the idea of something more organic that feeds through the Alien structures. Such as 'touching' a certain type of friendly structure to gain a temporary boost in some area. In fact you could do that with all of the old NS1 structures: touch a Defence Chamber to get an 'overheal' before going into combat. touch an Sensory Chamber to get temporary cloak and, as mentioned, Motion Chambers would give a temporary speed boost. This way Aliens can still get a boost en masse if they choose to (on defence this would be particularly effective), but it's more versatile than the Marine bonuses (or more limited depending on how you look at it).
through walls, display their armor, health of team mates, if they have a welder, if they are currently reloading.
i like scotties idea, but i would like to extend it even a little bit: display some arrows on the side of your screen, if the discovered mt blimps are
not in your current view direction. like a warning system: everyone who sees an alien in your squad alerts the whole squad and you see where
the alien is (instead of opening the mini-map...)
being in a squad should make you feel more save (welder support, covering fire, better perception) instead of empowering you with some buffs.
you could even make a reasearch-able upgrade out of it (instead of motion tracking), called "<b><i><!--coloro:#8B0000--><span style="color:#8B0000"><!--/coloro-->squad interlinked visors<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></i></b>" where visual informations captured
by a marines visor would be send to all marines in their squad. maybe to prevent this upgrade to be a featured "wall hack" you alternatively stick
with only the arrows (displayed on the side of your screen) representing only the horizontal direction of the enemy. (so you dont know if you should aim
upwards or downwards unless you really spot the enemy)
to summarize the squad bonuses:
- welder support (if present in your team)
- covering fire
- squad interlinked visors
edit:
screenshot to show how it could look like ingame (its only a sketch done in paintbrush!):
<img src="http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/9536/sketchdetection.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
its not working when you are alone, meaning that you only get notifications of enemies
which are detected by <u>other</u> players in your squad.
see where your fellow squad mates are and their hp/armour is all you need.
a) have an upgrade that increases your perception, which i generally like (but motion tracking was to good)
b) gives the squad system a purpose other than the natural benefits of sticking together
i had also some more radical ideas how to give the squad system purpose, one would be that every medpak picked up by a squad member
would heal the whole squad by some amount (10hp?)
One way of displaying my "focus fire indicator" suggestion, is, for example, to have tracer rounds. Another is to quite simply highlight on the screen whatever is being damaged by your team-mates.
It would be really annoying if issuing orders were confined to dynamic squads.
Dynamic squads could be perhaps used purely for a personal benefit for the marines.
If you have a personal benefit for being a member of a defined squad then what happens if you aren't in the vicinity?
A bonus could be informational such as visibility of enemies.
But I think a personal res bonus for kills on top of the existing bonus would be good for dynamic squads.
A damage, respawn or health bonus is probably too much.
would heal the whole squad by some amount (10hp?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suggested increasing the area/range of the heal effect a while back, as a possible solution for not only encouraging teamwork but also raising the Medspam skillcap.
Healing could be divided among all Marines in the Squad, such that the total amount healed does not increase with the number of players healed.