More than anything else, the competitive community is a weathervane for the general state of the game. Games worth playing have competitive scenes. A large playerbase serves as the player pool for a competitive scene, so you can't really sustain a competitive scene without a healthy pub scene. But if you have a large playerbase and a conspicuous lack of a competitive scene, then the reason is probably the same as why nobody plays tic-tac-toe competitively; the game simply doesn't have the depth that makes it worthwhile to play on a long-term basis. It's good to have a game beginners can pick up easily, but it shouldn't come at the expense of making a game with no future.
Also, I started picking Go back up again. You can teach me, TrC!
<!--quoteo(post=1858288:date=Jul 6 2011, 09:59 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Underwhelmed @ Jul 6 2011, 09:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858288"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->More than anything else, the competitive community is a weathervane for the general state of the game. Games worth playing have competitive scenes. A large playerbase serves as the player pool for a competitive scene, so you can't really sustain a competitive scene without a healthy pub scene. But if you have a large playerbase and a conspicuous lack of a competitive scene, then the reason is probably the same as why nobody plays tic-tac-toe competitively; the game simply doesn't have the depth that makes it worthwhile to play on a long-term basis. It's good to have a game beginners can pick up easily, but it shouldn't come at the expense of making a game with no future.
Also, I started picking Go back up again. You can teach me, TrC!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would love to I'm around 1k-1d havent players years though :>
If you are serious enough you would need to pick me up at IRC
#team.fantasy @ quakenet theres actually couple other people playing aswell :)
Pretty much what meb said. If you want the game to get better, you need those very active players who analyze every little detail to see any and all issues. A person who's new and doesn't see the whole picture of the game won't be very useful.
Secondly, I always enjoyed getting stomped in games, it showed me how good people can get and how good I could become. If you want to get better, you need to play against better people.
Even now in NS1, I love it, when people stack marines/aliens and i'm on the other team, gives me a fun challenge which I love. Makes it more interesting for me. Where most of the time, I still do very well, yet the rest of my team just gives up because better players are on the other team. Sorry dudes, just get used to it and get better.
<!--quoteo(post=1858234:date=Jul 6 2011, 02:46 AM:name=jkflipflop)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jkflipflop @ Jul 6 2011, 02:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858234"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Taking your entire clan that practices together everyday and probably pleasures each other with the slide-rules that you use to compute the rate over rise of the intrinsic growth rate of the Hydra and putting them in a server stacked against a group of people that just want to have some fun is not OK.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea it's that kind of attitude that creates public/competitive divides.
I played competitive for many years in NS1 and didn't join public games with team-mates to stomp.
<!--quoteo(post=1858358:date=Jul 6 2011, 02:31 PM:name=sherpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sherpa @ Jul 6 2011, 02:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858358"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yea it's that kind of attitude that creates public/competitive divides.
I played competitive for many years in NS1 and didn't join public games with team-mates to stomp.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah. Pubstomping isn't nice.
In competetive community's defence I have to say that it seems more like a incompatibility of human nature and Internet than a competetive community specific thingy though. Take any given group of people, give them power to do something nasty over the Internet (in this case usually through superior skill and/or teammate communication) and some will go for it. In a similar way I see non competetive people stomping over xmenu combat servers in most unfair ways and people yelling at other people not knowing how to play siegemaps inside out. Some people just go bananas when they've got the chance.
So yeah, mostly I'm just trying to point out that most of the competetive community is actually quite nice people. Public games often just end up seeing the nastier personalities more. I've quite intentionally tried to wear a tag even on public games to kind of raise awarness that not every competetive gamer is pubstomping all over the place all day long.
<!--quoteo(post=1858232:date=Jul 5 2011, 05:58 PM:name=meb3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (meb3 @ Jul 5 2011, 05:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858232"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a pretty far-fetched claim. In my experience, a healthy competitive community generally means competitive players keep to matches/scrims/pugs and do not bother with pubs unless they are messing around. Competitive play also roots out glaring balance issues that cannot be revealed in unorganized play. It has a vital role in multi-player games for this reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We don't cater exclusively to competitive players nor "public" players - it's a balance between the two. Unknown Worlds has people that represent both types of players and everything in between, so we think the voices of both will tend to be built in.
Let's keep this thread focused on the positive, guys.
A new tournament mode for NS2 could solve some balancing problems between public and srs-busiess gameplay. It did good in ns1 so why not try it in ns2? Bhop, and all the other stuff could be tounament mode only and public mode would be more fun for everybody else
<!--quoteo(post=1858250:date=Jul 5 2011, 11:27 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Jul 5 2011, 11:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858250"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was always a public match player but I understand the balancing from the competitive scene is what makes a game so great.
Just make sure it has a level of accessibility so newcomers aren't scared away. And so I don't have to do some annoying movement exploit to have fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
seconding this. take the same approach the TF2 staff did and everyone's happy. although i would have liked to see <i>all</i> classes equally useful in competitive play.
As others have said, competitive support benefits the game and its entire community, while a good casual community is needed for the competitive community to thrive.
Right now there are a lot players from many competitive FPS scenes waiting for a new game to play and a lot of them are hoping for NS2 to be it. Top players from NS1 are also top players in tf2, l4d, and sc2 and this has brought a lot of hope and interest in NS2 as a competitive game, especially since there has been a great amount of dissatisfaction with modern competitive shooters. Right now none of the ns2 clans are made up of high level players, but it's good to see interest forming. Most competitive players are waiting for NS2 to run smooth, free of input lag, good registry, etc. as those are essential things for people to really get into it. When that happens you can expect to see the competitive community grow and gain more interest from outsiders too.
I also think a good ladder/skill measurement system like sc2's can do a lot to allow players to enter competitive play and allow fun, balanced games at all levels.
<!--quoteo(post=1858440:date=Jul 7 2011, 12:05 AM:name=Pyromaniac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pyromaniac @ Jul 7 2011, 12:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858440"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also think a good ladder/skill measurement system like sc2's can do a lot to allow players to enter competitive play and allow fun, balanced games at all levels.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I liked how quakelive showed levels of the servers (players in them) so you could choose whether to go for higher or your own level, it would be very complex to count such a skill in a game like NS2 where game sense makes up to 50% of the skill. Still I find it worth exploring.
<!--quoteo(post=1858389:date=Jul 6 2011, 06:36 PM:name=Zeno)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeno @ Jul 6 2011, 06:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858389"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A new tournament mode for NS2 could solve some balancing problems between public and srs-busiess gameplay. It did good in ns1 so why not try it in ns2? Bhop, and all the other stuff could be tounament mode only and public mode would be more fun for everybody else<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not so sure that's a good idea. Would-be competitive players will come into the game playing the pub mode and possibly lose interest because of how the game plays, never knowing there is a "pro mode" they would enjoy... or they might come to like the pub mode, and look to join the competitive scene, only to find that they'd learnt how to play the wrong game all along.
<!--quoteo(post=1858577:date=Jul 7 2011, 09:44 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jul 7 2011, 09:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858577"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not so sure that's a good idea. Would-be competitive players will come into the game playing the pub mode and possibly lose interest because of how the game plays, never knowing there is a "pro mode" they would enjoy... or they might come to like the pub mode, and look to join the competitive scene, only to find that they'd learnt how to play the wrong game all along.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i doubt ppl would start playing NS2 with the instant focus on playing it competetive. you start playing pub and eventually competetive later so i think a normal mode and a competetive mode could solve some issues. even so the modes should not be too diffrent (like bhop // no bhop)
and im very happy NS happened to get a guy like hugh(NS2HD), he has good ideas and even the knownledge how to realise those. very precious for the community!
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited July 2011
Making the game play differently for the competitive players isn't a great idea. Splits the game in two and might as well call it "NS2 Pro"
Having the only difference be team size is best imo. As it allows the public game community to learn some tricks from the pro community to improve themselves.
<!--quoteo(post=1858526:date=Jul 7 2011, 04:02 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 7 2011, 04:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858526"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I liked how quakelive showed levels of the servers (players in them) so you could choose whether to go for higher or your own level, it would be very complex to count such a skill in a game like NS2 where game sense makes up to 50% of the skill. Still I find it worth exploring.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, that is probably a better system since the starcraft system mainly works because it's 1v1.
I'm not a fan of a "pro-mode" either. Even having played a lot, so having some skill and being in a clan now, I won't consider myself pro. And bunnyhop is something I never got used to. And I'm sometimes even the one who is getting bashed in pubs. Don't think that just because someone is wearing a clantag he's pro.
The difference between pubs and clan matches is how the players are working together, not necessarily the skill (but its of course important) let alone the knowledge of every little part of the game mechanic. I think that's the real problem NS2 has with pub balance vs competitive balance. While in games like Counterstrike the teams are nearly equal (only slight differences like a little more accuracy with m4 vs a little more damage with ak47), the teams in NS2 are very different. Its part of the nature of the game that aliens are more individualistic and marines are more organized on public servers. So if the game gets balanced for that, aliens will have the advantage in clan matches.
So IF there is going to be a tournament mode, I'd rather like to see some slight balance tweaks rather than any fundamental game changes like bhop.
Comments
Also, I started picking Go back up again. You can teach me, TrC!
I guess the ultimate goal for a game designer is to make a game where "playing for fun" is indistinguishable from "playing to win".
Also, I started picking Go back up again. You can teach me, TrC!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would love to I'm around 1k-1d havent players years though :>
If you are serious enough you would need to pick me up at IRC
#team.fantasy @ quakenet theres actually couple other people playing aswell :)
Secondly, I always enjoyed getting stomped in games, it showed me how good people can get and how good I could become. If you want to get better, you need to play against better people.
Even now in NS1, I love it, when people stack marines/aliens and i'm on the other team, gives me a fun challenge which I love. Makes it more interesting for me. Where most of the time, I still do very well, yet the rest of my team just gives up because better players are on the other team. Sorry dudes, just get used to it and get better.
Yea it's that kind of attitude that creates public/competitive divides.
I played competitive for many years in NS1 and didn't join public games with team-mates to stomp.
I played competitive for many years in NS1 and didn't join public games with team-mates to stomp.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah. Pubstomping isn't nice.
In competetive community's defence I have to say that it seems more like a incompatibility of human nature and Internet than a competetive community specific thingy though. Take any given group of people, give them power to do something nasty over the Internet (in this case usually through superior skill and/or teammate communication) and some will go for it. In a similar way I see non competetive people stomping over xmenu combat servers in most unfair ways and people yelling at other people not knowing how to play siegemaps inside out. Some people just go bananas when they've got the chance.
So yeah, mostly I'm just trying to point out that most of the competetive community is actually quite nice people. Public games often just end up seeing the nastier personalities more. I've quite intentionally tried to wear a tag even on public games to kind of raise awarness that not every competetive gamer is pubstomping all over the place all day long.
We don't cater exclusively to competitive players nor "public" players - it's a balance between the two. Unknown Worlds has people that represent both types of players and everything in between, so we think the voices of both will tend to be built in.
Let's keep this thread focused on the positive, guys.
It did good in ns1 so why not try it in ns2? Bhop, and all the other stuff could be tounament mode only and public mode would be more fun for everybody else
Just make sure it has a level of accessibility so newcomers aren't scared away. And so I don't have to do some annoying movement exploit to have fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
seconding this. take the same approach the TF2 staff did and everyone's happy. although i would have liked to see <i>all</i> classes equally useful in competitive play.
Right now there are a lot players from many competitive FPS scenes waiting for a new game to play and a lot of them are hoping for NS2 to be it. Top players from NS1 are also top players in tf2, l4d, and sc2 and this has brought a lot of hope and interest in NS2 as a competitive game, especially since there has been a great amount of dissatisfaction with modern competitive shooters. Right now none of the ns2 clans are made up of high level players, but it's good to see interest forming. Most competitive players are waiting for NS2 to run smooth, free of input lag, good registry, etc. as those are essential things for people to really get into it. When that happens you can expect to see the competitive community grow and gain more interest from outsiders too.
I also think a good ladder/skill measurement system like sc2's can do a lot to allow players to enter competitive play and allow fun, balanced games at all levels.
I liked how quakelive showed levels of the servers (players in them) so you could choose whether to go for higher or your own level, it would be very complex to count such a skill in a game like NS2 where game sense makes up to 50% of the skill. Still I find it worth exploring.
It did good in ns1 so why not try it in ns2? Bhop, and all the other stuff could be tounament mode only and public mode would be more fun for everybody else<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not so sure that's a good idea. Would-be competitive players will come into the game playing the pub mode and possibly lose interest because of how the game plays, never knowing there is a "pro mode" they would enjoy... or they might come to like the pub mode, and look to join the competitive scene, only to find that they'd learnt how to play the wrong game all along.
i doubt ppl would start playing NS2 with the instant focus on playing it competetive. you start playing pub and eventually competetive later so i think a normal mode and a competetive mode could solve some issues. even so the modes should not be too diffrent (like bhop // no bhop)
and im very happy NS happened to get a guy like hugh(NS2HD), he has good ideas and even the knownledge how to realise those. very precious for the community!
Having the only difference be team size is best imo. As it allows the public game community to learn some tricks from the pro community to improve themselves.
Yeah, that is probably a better system since the starcraft system mainly works because it's 1v1.
The difference between pubs and clan matches is how the players are working together, not necessarily the skill (but its of course important) let alone the knowledge of every little part of the game mechanic. I think that's the real problem NS2 has with pub balance vs competitive balance. While in games like Counterstrike the teams are nearly equal (only slight differences like a little more accuracy with m4 vs a little more damage with ak47), the teams in NS2 are very different. Its part of the nature of the game that aliens are more individualistic and marines are more organized on public servers. So if the game gets balanced for that, aliens will have the advantage in clan matches.
So IF there is going to be a tournament mode, I'd rather like to see some slight balance tweaks rather than any fundamental game changes like bhop.