twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1859385:date=Jul 10 2011, 03:46 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 10 2011, 03:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859385"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could combine the two, part of the problem with cysts is that on maps as spread out as summit, the supply lines are rather stretched.
If it was possible to place a super cyst of sorts, which would act as a hub for infestation much like the hive (and be similarly tough to kill, say 2500HP and bigger than a crag) you could make multiple redundant backups. Super cysts would cost say 20 T res so they'd be expensive, but worth adding a few in places like generator or crevice, as a break in the infestation line would just leave two ends connected to different things.
Because cysts are effectively free, or at least they come from an energy pool you can't really use for much else, it would be wise to use both types of cyst to infest a room, place a super cyst then spread lots of little ones, attacking infestation you could either kill the super cyst and then try to cut the room off from the hive, or you could just blow up the entire room. Still has the supply line mechanic but gives you a way to make it stronger which you currently can't really do because you are limited by the size of the corridors.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have an idea that is similar to yours. Cysts have way too few HP at the moment, I think 1000 HP would be a good amount (5 Cysts = 1 Power Point in term of HP).
<!--quoteo(post=1859367:date=Jul 10 2011, 03:14 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Jul 10 2011, 03:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859367"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Both teams need Team Res "sinks" that require TRes upkeep late game.
I would suggest adding a TRes cost to repairing Power Nodes (the Commander has to replace the Node just like other structures) for Marines. For Kharaa, (commander placed) normal Cysts would also cost Team Res, and form the "backbone" of the infestation.
What about Gorge spawned mini Cysts? Their health would be significantly (-80%?) lower than normal Cysts, so they would serve as backup infestation nodes or for fast infestation expansion, but could never replace normal Cysts that cost TRes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
After having both played (and won) as an alien and marine commander I'dd like to comment on some new features:
1)The alien commander having to switch hives In the last patch when I had more then one hive I had to keep checking every hive to see what hive had enough energy to place infestation. Infestation would not even place half of the time, but despite these issues I still enjoyed alien commander. And now instead of addressing these issues you managed to make commanding as an alien a pain in the ass. I will not play as alien commander anymore, because running from one hive to the next is great fun if you're a dog, but not so great if your a person. Usability 0/10.
2)The postules I'm sure the intention was well meant but it totally failed. Infestation was way better in the last version. Both better looking and more enjoyable to play with. The postules are a hidious structure not belonging in the NS2 feel at all. I would make em better looking & harder to kill, or strongly consider putting it back to the last path
I still need to do more testing but this is what I think of these new alien commander "features" :)
and I have to agree with you. The pustules/cysts are just plain annoying and I really dislike them. I don't see a problem with Infestation early game and when Infestation DID become a problem the marines already had flame-thrower to deal with it.
The cysts promote people to rambo up to the Aliens hive and cut off the Infestation. The Cysts die way too easily and when they are unconnected it doesn't give you enough time to fix it before every other cyst is dead...
I haven’t been a lurk in 180 so I can’t say too much about the changes . As a marine I used to think of lurks as more or less an effective nuisance and hindrance but easy to avoid too much damage. As a lurk I felt the same. Now lurks seem to be an effective combat weapon. I had to die a couple of times before I figured that out. I haven’t been a lurk in 180 so I can’t say too much about the changes . As a marine I used to think of lurks as more or less an effective nuisance and hindrance but easy to avoid too much damage. As a lurk I felt the same. Now lurks seem to be an effective combat weapon. I had to die a couple of times before I figured that out. I think the balance has shifted to the Marines. Last night I was in a two hour+ battle that went back and forth with both sides gaining and losing ground. The marines had a slight advantage but it was not large. After reading the complaints in this thread, I just think changing play style and learning to work with the changes for a while will result in better suggestions. I think 180 is OK. Waiting for 181. Two marines with shotguns in a one hive game can win it. One shooting eggs to prevent spawning and one killing the hive. The new shottie at close range is one shot one dead egg.
<!--quoteo(post=1859391:date=Jul 10 2011, 01:54 PM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Jul 10 2011, 01:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859391"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also dislike that the ARC can fire through walls, it doesn't make that much sense considering that the thing can move around. I thought it would require its <u>own</u> line of sight in order for it to fire (This was before it was released)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, I cannot fathom why anything should be able to shoot through walls if it isnt some kind of materialized indoor airstrike. I dont like anything shooting through walls, including flamethrowers - that doesnt fit a modern game. ARCs can move around, and should not be able to shoot like that.. Instead Id be more than happy with an attack ground command and generous area-of-effect
I disagree on pustules being horrible. They're a step in the right direction from 179. Once their weaknesses are sorted out they will make the DI system awesome.
You could actually replace the ARC with a commander ability that you get from an Observatory. The commander could just select where he wants the explosion. And the explosion could be in a radius of the Observatory. That way you might have to do a Scan before you attack.
The bad thing is though, cysts have generated their own problem; Rambo's killing off a line of Infestation.
As a marine that's on of the most fun things to do. Wandering off, killing a cysts as close to the hive as possible, knowing you just killed an rt and 4 structures in a forward base.
Let's not dismiss pustules entirely. The devs finally added a system which has been requested since infestation first arrived - the ability to see if infestation is connected or not. The pustules lighting up, and the pulse going along the pustule network, are both excellent additions. All that is needed is for the pustules to stand out less over time, and develop more health over time (up to a limit). Then we just have to wait for 3D infestation that will move in a more dynamic way.
<!--quoteo(post=1859654:date=Jul 11 2011, 05:41 AM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Jul 11 2011, 05:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let's not dismiss pustules entirely. The devs finally added a system which has been requested since infestation first arrived - the ability to see if infestation is connected or not. The pustules lighting up, and the pulse going along the pustule network, are both excellent additions. All that is needed is for the pustules to stand out less over time, and develop more health over time (up to a limit). Then we just have to wait for 3D infestation that will move in a more dynamic way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ugh, all for a feature that slows down the game considerably.
<!--quoteo(post=1859550:date=Jul 10 2011, 10:33 PM:name=mokkat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mokkat @ Jul 10 2011, 10:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859550"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree, I cannot fathom why anything should be able to shoot through walls if it isnt some kind of materialized indoor airstrike. I dont like anything shooting through walls, including flamethrowers - that doesnt fit a modern game. ARCs can move around, and should not be able to shoot like that.. Instead Id be more than happy with an attack ground command and generous area-of-effect<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They wouldn't be used if they couldn't (unless they can drive and shoot), so thats a good thing.
And yes postules have increased the lag when the map is filled with them.
The old infestation took nearly an entire flamethrower ammo to kill one, but a marine with a light machine gun only needs 1 clip to kill a postule...balance anyone :)?
I don't want to dismiss postules entireley but they need to change the way they are now imo
<!--quoteo(post=1859656:date=Jul 11 2011, 05:45 AM:name=Asraniel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asraniel @ Jul 11 2011, 05:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859656"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->SC2 has creep with creep tumours, and i would not say that they slow down the game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not creep tumors, creep itself. NS1 didn't require you to build on any kind of infestation and there were no power nodes, so as a result the gameplay was much for fast paced and exciting. Going from NS1 and NS2 feels like... why? Why even bother adding those two things in?
Because the maps are far more compact in NS2 which means you need some sort of limiting factor, otherwise people could just run from one side to the other whenever they feel like.
It's better in the long run because compact maps mean that if you control a lot of territory, you can cross it fairly quickly, but the actual capturing of ground is slower, to make up for the reduced amount of ground there is to capture.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
From my experiences with B180 so far it seems that matches are generally determined by two things 1. Playercount (less favors aliens) 2. Match length (longer favors marines)
The first is an issue with shotguns and cysts it seems. With a large number of players (>6 per side) marines can build up a critical mass of shotguns roving death squads that can pretty much demolition any alien unit or structure. 4 shotgun marines is all it takes to level a hive. Also, since it takes 3 shotgun shots to kill a cyst, its trivially simple to rush to alien start and kill all the connecting cysts.
The second problem is due to aliens not having any siege class/weapons yet (see onos). Once marines achieve a critical mass of sentries, rooms become nearly impenetrable. However, the marines have grenade launchers and ARCs which does a fairly good job of demoing any alien structures. Most matches that drag on long enough lead to marine wins.
* The marine team feels favored now, which seems a combination of the following: \The Kharaa dependency on pustules, which are difficult to place and are easily destroyed, which hurts Kharaa economy a lot, buildings dying even? \Kharaa slowdown on hit \Excessive FPS drops during fights * Love the new sounds, combined with the visual it's a great experience ambiance wise. * Interface has had some great improvements * Really had trouble hitting marines as a Lerk, not sure what was going on
I do like the balance, when the pustules and lag gets fixed it should even out no? Looking forward to playing B180 some more.
Comments
If it was possible to place a super cyst of sorts, which would act as a hub for infestation much like the hive (and be similarly tough to kill, say 2500HP and bigger than a crag) you could make multiple redundant backups. Super cysts would cost say 20 T res so they'd be expensive, but worth adding a few in places like generator or crevice, as a break in the infestation line would just leave two ends connected to different things.
Because cysts are effectively free, or at least they come from an energy pool you can't really use for much else, it would be wise to use both types of cyst to infest a room, place a super cyst then spread lots of little ones, attacking infestation you could either kill the super cyst and then try to cut the room off from the hive, or you could just blow up the entire room. Still has the supply line mechanic but gives you a way to make it stronger which you currently can't really do because you are limited by the size of the corridors.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have an idea that is similar to yours. Cysts have way too few HP at the moment, I think 1000 HP would be a good amount (5 Cysts = 1 Power Point in term of HP).
<!--quoteo(post=1859367:date=Jul 10 2011, 03:14 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Jul 10 2011, 03:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859367"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Both teams need Team Res "sinks" that require TRes upkeep late game.
I would suggest adding a TRes cost to repairing Power Nodes (the Commander has to replace the Node just like other structures) for Marines. For Kharaa, (commander placed) normal Cysts would also cost Team Res, and form the "backbone" of the infestation.
What about Gorge spawned mini Cysts? Their health would be significantly (-80%?) lower than normal Cysts, so they would serve as backup infestation nodes or for fast infestation expansion, but could never replace normal Cysts that cost TRes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1)The alien commander having to switch hives
In the last patch when I had more then one hive I had to keep checking every hive to see what hive had enough energy to place infestation. Infestation would not even place half of the time, but despite these issues I still enjoyed alien commander. And now instead of addressing these issues you managed to make commanding as an alien a pain in the ass.
I will not play as alien commander anymore, because running from one hive to the next is great fun if you're a dog, but not so great if your a person. Usability 0/10.
2)The postules
I'm sure the intention was well meant but it totally failed. Infestation was way better in the last version. Both better looking and more enjoyable to play with. The postules are a hidious structure not belonging in the NS2 feel at all. I would make em better looking & harder to kill, or strongly consider putting it back to the last path
I still need to do more testing but this is what I think of these new alien commander "features" :)
Please put them back to 179!
and I have to agree with you. The pustules/cysts are just plain annoying and I really dislike them. I don't see a problem with Infestation early game and when Infestation DID become a problem the marines already had flame-thrower to deal with it.
The cysts promote people to rambo up to the Aliens hive and cut off the Infestation. The Cysts die way too easily and when they are unconnected it doesn't give you enough time to fix it before every other cyst is dead...
I haven’t been a lurk in 180 so I can’t say too much about the changes . As a marine I used to think of lurks as more or less an effective nuisance and hindrance but easy to avoid too much damage. As a lurk I felt the same. Now lurks seem to be an effective combat weapon. I had to die a couple of times before I figured that out. I think the balance has shifted to the Marines. Last night I was in a two hour+ battle that went back and forth with both sides gaining and losing ground. The marines had a slight advantage but it was not large. After reading the complaints in this thread, I just think changing play style and learning to work with the changes for a while will result in better suggestions. I think 180 is OK. Waiting for 181. Two marines with shotguns in a one hive game can win it. One shooting eggs to prevent spawning and one killing the hive. The new shottie at close range is one shot one dead egg.
I agree, I cannot fathom why anything should be able to shoot through walls if it isnt some kind of materialized indoor airstrike. I dont like anything shooting through walls, including flamethrowers - that doesnt fit a modern game. ARCs can move around, and should not be able to shoot like that.. Instead Id be more than happy with an attack ground command and generous area-of-effect
The bad thing is though, cysts have generated their own problem; Rambo's killing off a line of Infestation.
Ugh, all for a feature that slows down the game considerably.
They wouldn't be used if they couldn't (unless they can drive and shoot), so thats a good thing.
And yes postules have increased the lag when the map is filled with them.
The old infestation took nearly an entire flamethrower ammo to kill one, but a marine with a light machine gun only needs 1 clip to kill a postule...balance anyone :)?
I don't want to dismiss postules entireley but they need to change the way they are now imo
Not creep tumors, creep itself. NS1 didn't require you to build on any kind of infestation and there were no power nodes, so as a result the gameplay was much for fast paced and exciting. Going from NS1 and NS2 feels like... why? Why even bother adding those two things in?
It's better in the long run because compact maps mean that if you control a lot of territory, you can cross it fairly quickly, but the actual capturing of ground is slower, to make up for the reduced amount of ground there is to capture.
1. Playercount (less favors aliens)
2. Match length (longer favors marines)
The first is an issue with shotguns and cysts it seems. With a large number of players (>6 per side) marines can build up a critical mass of shotguns roving death squads that can pretty much demolition any alien unit or structure. 4 shotgun marines is all it takes to level a hive. Also, since it takes 3 shotgun shots to kill a cyst, its trivially simple to rush to alien start and kill all the connecting cysts.
The second problem is due to aliens not having any siege class/weapons yet (see onos). Once marines achieve a critical mass of sentries, rooms become nearly impenetrable. However, the marines have grenade launchers and ARCs which does a fairly good job of demoing any alien structures. Most matches that drag on long enough lead to marine wins.
* The marine team feels favored now, which seems a combination of the following:
\The Kharaa dependency on pustules, which are difficult to place and are easily destroyed, which hurts Kharaa economy a lot, buildings dying even?
\Kharaa slowdown on hit
\Excessive FPS drops during fights
* Love the new sounds, combined with the visual it's a great experience ambiance wise.
* Interface has had some great improvements
* Really had trouble hitting marines as a Lerk, not sure what was going on
I do like the balance, when the pustules and lag gets fixed it should even out no?
Looking forward to playing B180 some more.