A mull over Cysts
Eletro Bull
Join Date: 2011-05-29 Member: 101560Members
Join Date: 2011-05-29 Member: 101560Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Several ideas I'd like to share</div>I've played a few games and generally feel like agreeing with the general consensus that Cysts are pretty much a weak, highly "cheese-able" way a solo marine can cripple the alien economy in the early part of the game. In terms of competitive game play, I have to agree that its quite nice, but pubbers like cheese to victory to much.
Now to the juicy idea I had... Why not make the Cysts upgradable through chambers?
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->Whip Cyst upgrade<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, on death the Cyst bursts out a gas cloud of <DEADLY NERO TOXIN> twice the area of said infestation that the dead Cyst was supporting, since airborne stuff can travel pretty far. If a marine is caught in this cloud a snowballing damage over time affect is applied and the marines vision starts to get impaired to the point of fading to black past the 50 HP mark then death occurs. The only way for the marine to be cured is <u>healing at an advanced armoury</u>. Exosuit marines are immune, ARCs will set off the gas, but Flame-throwers will not by using the justification that extreme heat denatures (kills) the toxin protein.
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->Crag Cyst upgrade<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, Cysts grow armour, buffs health and health regeneration. The amount of damage they should be able absorb is 2 shotguns at point blank till empty and one pistol till empty both at upgrade level 3.
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->Cloaking Cyst upgrade<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> (from sensor/cloaking chamber equivalent), Cysts are cloaked and are immune to any damage while cloaked. Marines observatory scan reveal said Cysts. Cysts that have been revealed triggers a cooldown timer before the Cyst can recloak.
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->Movement Cyst upgrade<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, Buffs Skulk speed to 200%, buffs Onoes and Gorge speed by 150% (while on infestation). Fades and Lerks are unaffected by this buff due to their unique movement abilities.
Cysts can have all upgrades on them if they are researched at respective chambers.
In build 180 currently Cysts are placed down instantly, my suggestion would to apply a building timer after a Cyst upgrade research is complete.
Please take your time, mull it over, then post something constructive. :)
Now to the juicy idea I had... Why not make the Cysts upgradable through chambers?
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->Whip Cyst upgrade<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, on death the Cyst bursts out a gas cloud of <DEADLY NERO TOXIN> twice the area of said infestation that the dead Cyst was supporting, since airborne stuff can travel pretty far. If a marine is caught in this cloud a snowballing damage over time affect is applied and the marines vision starts to get impaired to the point of fading to black past the 50 HP mark then death occurs. The only way for the marine to be cured is <u>healing at an advanced armoury</u>. Exosuit marines are immune, ARCs will set off the gas, but Flame-throwers will not by using the justification that extreme heat denatures (kills) the toxin protein.
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->Crag Cyst upgrade<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, Cysts grow armour, buffs health and health regeneration. The amount of damage they should be able absorb is 2 shotguns at point blank till empty and one pistol till empty both at upgrade level 3.
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->Cloaking Cyst upgrade<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> (from sensor/cloaking chamber equivalent), Cysts are cloaked and are immune to any damage while cloaked. Marines observatory scan reveal said Cysts. Cysts that have been revealed triggers a cooldown timer before the Cyst can recloak.
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->Movement Cyst upgrade<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, Buffs Skulk speed to 200%, buffs Onoes and Gorge speed by 150% (while on infestation). Fades and Lerks are unaffected by this buff due to their unique movement abilities.
Cysts can have all upgrades on them if they are researched at respective chambers.
In build 180 currently Cysts are placed down instantly, my suggestion would to apply a building timer after a Cyst upgrade research is complete.
Please take your time, mull it over, then post something constructive. :)
Comments
Whip upgrade:
Kills marine when at 50hp?
Why the advanced armory only? it costs 30 res to upgrade to AA, so you usually only have one of them. It would just seem wierd.
Crag upgrade:
Makes the cysts absorb 2 marines blasting ALL their shotgun shells that they have?! wtf?
Cloaking upgrade:
The only one thats not overpowering.
Movement upgrade:
Skulks 200% faster?! That, AND celerity. It is waaaay too much. Somewhere between 110%-150% for the aliens seems alot more balanced and appropriate.
If all this was implemented, it would be nearly impossible to destroy the infestation.
<!--quoteo(post=1859471:date=Jul 10 2011, 06:11 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Jul 10 2011, 06:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859471"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whip upgrade:
Kills marine when at 50hp?
Why the advanced armory only? it costs 30 res to upgrade to AA, so you usually only have one of them. It would just seem wierd.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On this one I thought I said "fading to black past the 50 HP" not dying, guess bad wording on my part. :S
The marine comm has to decide whether it is worth the 30 res on a forward AA (for a team push or invest into exosuits) or just med pack that single ninja marine back to base or give the order for that marine to kill cyst but then leave him to die, heck what are Infantry Portals for?
<!--quoteo(post=1859471:date=Jul 10 2011, 06:11 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Jul 10 2011, 06:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859471"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Crag upgrade:
Makes the cysts absorb 2 marines blasting ALL their shotgun shells that they have?! wtf?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This makes a squad of 4 or 5 marine take out a single cyst rather than 1 or 2 marines, even though 2 marines will take out a cyst, it'll take a while to do. It also gives aliens time to face the threat.
<!--quoteo(post=1859471:date=Jul 10 2011, 06:11 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Jul 10 2011, 06:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859471"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Movement upgrade:
Skulks 200% faster?! That, AND celerity. It is waaaay too much. Somewhere between 110%-150% for the aliens seems alot more balanced and appropriate.
If all this was implemented, it would be nearly impossible to destroy the infestation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was thinking more of terms of that celerity and this movement upgrade as not stackable (should have said oops), but movement upgrade would overrule celerity if the alien player is touching the infestation, so jumping would slow you down. On the other hand leaping off the infestation would carry over the momentum, catapulting the skulks.
This will make sure marines always need to take out out their axe to damage cysts. No problem since they can only be build on the floor and it will slow down the destruction of the cysts and make it more dangerous to do, since you don't have your main weapon ready.
Edit: this can even make a nice strategy while fighting around cysts. Building them at the frontlines.
The marines need to be extra carefull not to hit the cysts by accident, since they will emit umbra and give the aliens an advantage.
You missed out someone carrying the flame-thrower, hence that is why your squad died due to poor weapon composition or the fact the comm didn't put down a forward advanced armoury.
Even when Exosuits come out, immunity to the gas since of a built-in air filtration system in the suit.
That is a possible 3 ways to deal with fully upgraded cyst without any marine death.
That is why when I said "Please take your time, mull it over" was to avoid a crap post like this.
Even when Exosuits come out, immunity to the gas since of a built-in air filtration system in the suit.
That is a possible 3 ways to deal with fully upgraded cyst without any marine death.
That is why when I said "Please take your time, mull it over" was to avoid a crap post like this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So my point stands entirely unless the comm drops advanced armories every five feet or we make sure the flamethrower guy gets the kill, and even assuming that is the case, it still takes 30 seconds to kill ONE cyst, ONE cyst in a room full of cysts.
I don't know what your idea of fun is but shooting at little orange blobs for minutes on end is not my idea of an entertaining game.
<!--quoteo(post=1859551:date=Jul 10 2011, 10:36 PM:name=subshadow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (subshadow @ Jul 10 2011, 10:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My idea: the commander-placed cysts that are still connected emit umbra when they get hit.
This will make sure marines always need to take out out their axe to damage cysts. No problem since they can only be build on the floor and it will slow down the destruction of the cysts and make it more dangerous to do, since you don't have your main weapon ready.
Edit: this can even make a nice strategy while fighting around cysts. Building them at the frontlines.
The marines need to be extra carefull not to hit the cysts by accident, since they will emit umbra and give the aliens an advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It takes like 10 seconds to axe a cyst, it loses 10 health per chop, the axe is probably the best way to kill a cyst most of the time anyway.
I don't know what your idea of fun is but shooting at little orange blobs for minutes on end is not my idea of an entertaining game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude are you serious? Do you blow everything out of proportion? Or are you one of these quake wars insta-gib fanatics with mentality of "if ma big laser gun don't kill things in 0.1 nano-second, this game is boring"?
Have you played as an alien commander in the current build? Have you not noticed that a line from A to B is the quickest way to spread infestation? Can you not see the fundamental vulnerability even with the support of the mini-cysts the gorge produces?
"ONE cyst in a room full of cysts." If this is way you play comm as an alien, good luck on spreading that infestation to other parts of the map. It would make many a marine to figure out which cyst is the chain breaker, I'd just use an ARC.
Please, re-read the OP, mull it over for 24h+ and then come back with some reasonable suggestions other than "I don't know what your idea of fun is but shooting at little orange blobs for minutes on end is not my idea of an entertaining game.". If you have not noticed those "little orange blobs" are in the game by UWE design choice, I am just informing others of a few ideas I had to expand the depth to the cyst gameplay element in a calm, kind and constructive way. If you can't answer reasonably in kind, then give me a damn good reason why I should give a damn?
Much Love,
EB.
I like this idea better, but I would extend it to all cysts.
also a 2 hive crag upgrade that makes the cysts about twice as hard to kill (extra armour or hp) and give some regen (that only works while umbra is not in effect, so only when it's idle/safe).
And about cysts in general, they should not die as fast when unconnected. or they should start dying one by one starting with the one furthest away from the broken link, and working back.
a possible upgrade the future could be like the OP said, scan needed to reveal them. together with the above I can see this as a 3 hive shift(?) upgrade.
just some ideas
I do rather fancy this idea as well, but my little problem with this is that it can't be as good as the Crag's umbra.
I believe the Crag's umbra blocks 1/2 of bullets, the cyst umbra would have to block something like 1/5th of bullets.
I like to suggest an addition to that idea, we'll remove "emit umbra on hit" with a new ability on the hive to "pulse umbra" along all connecting cysts spending a little hive energy in the process. This umbra would linger in the air longer to the point when when it dissipates the hive has made its energy back for another pulse.
My idea would render ranged combat almost useless
Cysts are meant to link infestation together, that's all they do.
Your idea turns the Cyst into a key defensive structure. 200% movement increase? A huge AoE super gas that can kill heaps of standard marines?
Too much effort on the marine side is required to defeat a simple structure that spreads infestation. And while currently they are too weak, this just makes them way too powerful.
<i>(what is not very good .. but is just my and 3 more guys opinion .. -1 LOS)</i>
I'm putting at least 2 or 3 cysts in chunk (on very important places like corridor crossing etc. and then put just one hydra somewhere between them. I know.. I know it's expensive, but very secure :)
for example from my updated prototype (hydra somewhere in red circle):
<img src="http://imgur.com/svO1f.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
.. the result? Marines are busy with hydra and don't bother the cysts.
Your idea turns the Cyst into a key defensive structure. 200% movement increase? A huge AoE super gas that can kill heaps of standard marines?
Too much effort on the marine side is required to defeat a simple structure that spreads infestation. And while currently they are too weak, this just makes them way too powerful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When I thought about these upgrades, I was thinking about how to create a beneficial res sink for the alien comm at different points in the tier tree. Lets say at Tier 1 you decide to build a Crag first to get level 1 armour and the Crag Cyst upgrade. This example is based on the tiered system, so even if you build a Whip and click the Whip Cyst upgrade you will not be able to till you get the second hive.
This makes a Tier 4 tech tree for Cyst upgrades, however is can be shortened to Tier 3 (might be OP though). The main thought process about the Tier 4 for cysts is the fact that on a standard Natural Selection map there are 5 tech points, but if a side is able to hold 4 tech points they ultimately should be unstoppable.
<!--quoteo(post=1860254:date=Jul 13 2011, 05:12 AM:name=TempesT487)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TempesT487 @ Jul 13 2011, 05:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Crags, Shifts, Shades and Whips are meant to fulfill the role of alien defensive structures. Providing buffs and upgrades for the Aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do believe that non of the Cyst upgrades ever replaces or duplicates the original function of a Chamber, if nothing else it essentially adds to the depth of strategy to both Commanders.
Crags heals and deploys an umbra cloud, the cyst upgrade doesn't
Whips melee range attack and frenzy (+attack speed), the cyst upgrade doesn't.
Shades can cloak other structures around it, the cyst upgrade doesn't.
Shifts restore energy to aliens and act as a teleport, the cyst upgrade doesn't.
The ideas I had basically represent holes I think that are in the alien tech tree, to me the cyst upgrade idea fills in these gaping holes.
Edit: In terms of cyst design.
This is a possible idea, and could fit into the story/lore of natural selection 2. Also it would allow aliens to actually add a purpose/importance for aliens to secure powernoded areas instead of just destroying them and moving on never to pay mind to them unless marines are rebuilding them.
Just an idea, but perhaps worth consideration.....Maybe?
Whip: Yea, a damaging gas would be nice, with the same AOE radius you gave, but just make it a Lerk Gas that has bigger area, and maybe a little more damage.
Crag: Double or triple(probably only double when they buff the HP) all it's defensive stats, that's it.
Cloaking: Already good, just make one ping enough time to kill it for 3 and up sized marine squads.
Speed: 150% increase for all aliens excluding gorge, lerk, and fade, gorge should get 175%. Only applies while on infestation.