proposal to adress low hp of cysts
nUfl0w
Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42412Members
Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42412Members
hey everyone!
How about only making the last cyst in a chain of cysts easy to kill (e.g. 2-3 sg shots). So if you would try to kill the cyst closest to a hive in a link of cysts it would endure a lot more dmg. second clostest would endure a little less dmg than closest and so on ....
This would prohibit a single marine from sneaking into a hive, kill one cyst and by that destroy a hole arm of infestation including all the builds build upon it. At the same time a well organized rineteam could still kill cysts close to the hive in a group (Dealing enough dmg/sec to kill a cyst before alienteam discovers rines.). So there would be another teamplay generating tactic.
Only problem I can see is that an unorganized rineteam would be forced to kill cysts one by one pushing closer to a hive.
What to you think about this variation?
Dolce & Lebowski
How about only making the last cyst in a chain of cysts easy to kill (e.g. 2-3 sg shots). So if you would try to kill the cyst closest to a hive in a link of cysts it would endure a lot more dmg. second clostest would endure a little less dmg than closest and so on ....
This would prohibit a single marine from sneaking into a hive, kill one cyst and by that destroy a hole arm of infestation including all the builds build upon it. At the same time a well organized rineteam could still kill cysts close to the hive in a group (Dealing enough dmg/sec to kill a cyst before alienteam discovers rines.). So there would be another teamplay generating tactic.
Only problem I can see is that an unorganized rineteam would be forced to kill cysts one by one pushing closer to a hive.
What to you think about this variation?
Dolce & Lebowski
Comments
A better way to deal with cysts network problem, and would have the same effect as what you proposed, would be to make cysts harder to kill (more life/more regen/more hidden) with time. Recently placed cysts would be highly visible and weak like they are now, older ones would be more sunken in the infestation and have higher health. That would be a fair way to let aliens build bases, but make it a challenge to expand.
The structure spam is already beyond tolerable rates, I do not want it to increase.
<ul><li>When a Cyst in the middle of a chain is killed, the decay effect on the chain only affects the one connected to the destroyed Cyst.</li><li>The larger Cyst placed by the Commander needs to be scanned to be visible. It's really Starcraft 2 but it makes sense. </li><li>The Mini Cysts placed by the Gorge does not become invisible but have the advantage of being placeable pretty much anywhere (provided they make it possible to 'spit' a structure or increase the building range substantially).</li></ul>
Make it so for every Cyst in the chain, you add on an additional 20HP (for example) to the Cyst before it.
Therefore, longer chains would be harder to destroy at the source, but easier to kill up front.
Or as has also been suggested, over time they increase HP as they become 'rooted' into the floor.
Make it so for every Cyst in the chain, you add on an additional 20HP (for example) to the Cyst before it.
Therefore, longer chains would be harder to destroy at the source, but easier to kill up front.
Or as has also been suggested, over time they increase HP as they become 'rooted' into the floor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Something like that is a good temporary solution at least until DI starts growing on its own.
Although I think the other problem is that they are too easy to destroy with conventional guns, I know that's the idea but consider how many building killer tools the marines have, they could use flamethrowers, grenade launchers, arcs, or sentry guns to control infestation, they don't need to also be able to run up to it at the start and shoot it with the rifle to kill it.
If it was possible to place a super cyst of sorts, which would act as a hub for infestation much like the hive (and be similarly tough to kill, say 2500HP and bigger than a crag) you could make multiple redundant backups. Super cysts would cost say 20 T res so they'd be expensive, but worth adding a few in places like generator or crevice, as a break in the infestation line would just leave two ends connected to different things.
Because cysts are effectively free, or at least they come from an energy pool you can't really use for much else, it would be wise to use both types of cyst to infest a room, place a super cyst then spread lots of little ones, attacking infestation you could either kill the super cyst and then try to cut the room off from the hive, or you could just blow up the entire room. Still has the supply line mechanic but gives you a way to make it stronger which you currently can't really do because you are limited by the size of the corridors.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have an idea that is similar to yours.
<!--quoteo(post=1859367:date=Jul 10 2011, 03:14 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Jul 10 2011, 03:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859367"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Both teams need Team Res "sinks" that require TRes upkeep late game.
I would suggest adding a TRes cost to repairing Power Nodes (the Commander has to replace the Node just like other structures) for Marines. For Kharaa, (commander placed) normal Cysts would also cost Team Res, and form the "backbone" of the infestation.
What about Gorge spawned mini Cysts? Their health would be significantly (-80%?) lower than normal Cysts, so they would serve as backup infestation nodes or for fast infestation expansion, but could never replace normal Cysts that cost TRes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that is great idea ... and it can work as invisibility in NS1 .. once the marine touch / hit the cyst it will unhyde :D
-Just a few thoughts....
1. Need more health.(Could be done in many ways)
2. Can they be placed within a sphere area not just the ground and slightly up the side walls? So they may be on ceilings (issues with them in un-shootable areas) So that they are everywhere instead of a bread crumb trail to the hive.
3.The more structures you build on infestation the stronger all of it gets. As the game progresses essentially infestation would get harder to destroy. Not sure if you want static health increases or percent based(non stacking of course)
+Cyst +1% or 20
+Crag +5%
+Hive + 25% hp.
4. I think the idea of cysts and infestation being chained to a hive needs to be evaluated. I'm not sure its going to work out right now.
Perhaps if it was sat in radius of a crag, it couldn't be killed until the crag was killed (or something).
But don't add in this, to counter that, to counter this, etc, etc...
Otherwise you just end up with 1000 upgrades, that really don't add much to the game.
REcent game I do as commander path of infestation from one hive to another, and marine kill just one cyst near by source hive and whole path of infestation die :(
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Visually, the corrupted node would be covered in cysts, which would need to be killed before restoring power. killing the cysts would of course remove the infestation. Certain weapon limitations could be used to control what weapons damage the cysts - i.e cysts must be flamed or hacked off as opposed to shot at a distance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The infestation does need to be looked at, I think the cysts are a good step and I think your idea would also allow it to become more dynamic.
Once a commander infests towards a powernode, the cyst could infect that node and the infestation would start to spread all over that room on its own (dynamically). The power would go out of course and emergency lights would come on, the room would begin to take on a very alien feel which would create great scary environments that the marines would have to enter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I currently am not impressed with the ease a whole arm of infestation can be killed off by taking out 1 or 2 cysts. Structures also seem to die way to fast once off infestation, would be nice if they went dormant, allowing a gorge or commander a chance to reconnect them, also forcing the marines to kill off the structures in the same manner that the kharaa have to kill the unpowered marine buildings or risk they all work again as soon as the node is repaired.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMO, finding the Cyst should be a "bonus" goal for marines, and be more like mini hives, or alien power nodes. Power nodes take a good long while to kill unless you have 3-4 skulks on it, and killing a Cyst should provide a similar penalty to aliens as having the power go out. (albeit more gradual as infestation dies)
I really think the marines should choose between an easy-but-temporary solution of flaming infestation, or a more permanent solution of finding the Cyst and killing it. On the flip side, aliens should not have to build Cysts everywhere they go, but one Cyst should be expensive/time consuming and should infest a larger area.
On the other hand, I love some of the suggestions in here - have the alien buildings give synergies to each other when built in the same area. Whether the varying buildings have different effects, or they all just contribute to armor/HP, it would be very cool.
Cysts also need to be able to be placed on walls or ceilings, anywhere a hydra can go.
I suppose, with that in mind, you could change infestation so that rather than dying when not connected to a hive, things on it simply stop working properly. Structures don't regenerate health automatically and regenerate energy slower (so slower crag healing), aliens don't get their health/energy regen boost, it doesn't show marine positions, and resource towers don't contribute to the res supply (although they would still collect and store res locally for transmission back when they are reconnected.
Bascially infestation unifies the aliens, an area disconnected from a hive still works, but the hive (and subsequently the commander) doesn't get anything from it, and likewise the area doesn't recieve the benefits of the hive. You could also include things like commanders not being able to activate or upgrade structures on disconnected infestation, as they don't really have control there. It isn't quite like power nodes as marine stuff just turns into so much junk if it isn't powered, but it is a similar mechanic in that it's bad, but not terminal on its own.
Cutting off an area wouldn't really do anything serious in this system, unless you follow it up with an attack on the area or you keep it cut off. Reconnecting areas is beneficial for aliens, but not something you have to do immediately and not something that results in instant death if you don't.
I couldn't give you exact mechanics to make this work, but I think this is an excellent description. Even if aliens kill a phase gate, they still have to kill off the marine's second base. It doesn't wither and die on its own, but it IS in a lot of danger unless every marine gets there. However, if aliens kill the PG, and don't follow up with destroying the base, it's very easy for marines to reconnect it and continue about their business.
If it's an HP over time thing, perhaps have them start at a low % of their real health, and have them naturally regen. If you want more of an effect, maybe have the regen rate became faster (with a cap) as there are more cysts at the end.
Probably a lot of ways to address it.
Make it so for every Cyst in the chain, you add on an additional 20HP (for example) to the Cyst before it.
Therefore, longer chains would be harder to destroy at the source, but easier to kill up front.
Or as has also been suggested, over time they increase HP as they become 'rooted' into the floor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
Though, I would make the size or look of the cyst change with health so you have an idea of how much health it has. For example, make cysts need the end of the chain small, like mini-cyst size, while the ones close the the hives full size.
Though, I would make the size or look of the cyst change with health so you have an idea of how much health it has. For example, make cysts need the end of the chain small, like mini-cyst size, while the ones close the the hives full size.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only problem with this is how do you address multiple hives?
I would change it so that Cysts are drifter built structures requiring Tres. They are also a lot tougher (equivalent to a power node). A commander will normally only build 1-2 per room (depending on size of room). Cysts can only be built if connected to the hive, but can survive unconnected to the hive with some sort of penalty (such as no regen, armor/health penalty, and/or infestation receding to a small radius around the cyst that can only support the cyst itself)
Mini-cysts are then made by <b>BOTH </b>gorges and hive energy. They act primarily to connect cysts to hives and quickly spread infestation around.
Cysts also stick out like a sore thumb. They are too easy to see. I would like it if the gorge could place them for free but he required energy.
A new type of energy that he gains over time but can only be gained as a gorge, you would get energy quicker if you healed someone to full health, if you destroyed turrets, it would kind of be like have the score another source of energy that allowed you to place things.
If they took only 5 or so energy to build, then the commander could be more free with building cysts, perhaps even doubling or tripling up where it matters. That way, if one or two get taken out, they my still have enough.
There could optionally be a cooldown of around 5 seconds between building cysts to limit crazy expansion.
Plain Hive - Nothing, just acts as a cyst system hub.
Crag Hive - Cysts gain Crag heal (same amount and speed), indicated by heal spray particles.
Shift Hive - Cysts when destroyed return full/partial energy to originating Hive(s), no good if Hive(s) is full on energy.
Shade Hive - Cysts are cloaked and need to be scanned to be damaged by Marine weapons/ARCs.
The catch is that only connected Cysts get these bonuses from the Hives. The network will share 2+ bonuses if 2+ Hives are connected via Cysts. Unconnected Cysts are the easiest to pop, given that they take damage until death and will NOT have any bonuses. Not sure if Mini Cysts should also get bonuses, but I figure they should still transfer the bonuses to other Cysts in the system.
Plain Hive - Nothing, just acts as a cyst system hub.
Crag Hive - Cysts gain Crag heal (same amount and speed), indicated by heal spray particles.
Shift Hive - Cysts when destroyed return full/partial energy to originating Hive(s), no good if Hive(s) is full on energy.
Shade Hive - Cysts are cloaked and need to be scanned to be damaged by Marine weapons/ARCs.
The catch is that only connected Cysts get these bonuses from the Hives. The network will share 2+ bonuses if 2+ Hives are connected via Cysts. Unconnected Cysts are the easiest to pop, given that they take damage until death and will NOT have any bonuses. Not sure if Mini Cysts should also get bonuses, but I figure they should still transfer the bonuses to other Cysts in the system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This option could actually give Gorges back part of their former glory! If Cysts could gain some of these abilities, and Gorges can place Cysts... it's not quite chambers, but it adds functionality to these beyond infestation, and gives the Gorges a more important job of keeping everything connected. I would not mind seeing Cysts cost Pres in this design. It would do wonders eliminating some of the infinite fades.
+1
<ul><li>Cysts cannot be truly destroyed by bullet weapons, they will instead pop with the pus and all, then dry and crust up.</li><li>Crusted Cysts remain connected to the Hive via other Cysts/Crusted Cysts (will NOT disconnect once popped).</li><li>Crusted Cysts' infestation will slowly recede, effectively rendering the area uninfested.</li><li>To destroy Crusted Cysts, Marines require Flamethrower and ARC (fire can incinerate the roots and sonic weapon can disintegrate them)</li><li>To revert the damage to the Crusted Cysts and make them healthy, Gorges/Crags can heal them back to full 'armor'.</li><li>Once a Crusted Cyst has full armor and health, it becomes a normal Cyst and spreads infestation once more.</li><li>Add natural regeneration to Cysts/Crusted Cysts so eventually they will be functional (less focus from Alien Commander)</li></ul>
Imagine Cysts having Armor and Health. Armor is what all damage has to go through before deducting Health, so make this 'Armor' vulnerable to all types of damage, but 'Health' only deducts from Flamethrower and ARC damage.
For example, 800 armor 400 health. It takes a slightly longer time for Marines to pop Cysts (adds discouragement to focus on Cysts, encourages more on PVP), but will let the Marines feel accomplished that they made infestation shrink to nothing for the time being.
Since the Flamethrower causes damage per second, can light up anything its fire touches, and ARC can damage multiple Cysts simultaneously... these should be more than enough to deal with Cysts, permanently.
Edit: Note that the unconnected/connected system is intact for this idea, so unconnected Cysts and Mini Cysts will still take damage (to Armor and Health) until death.