Just return at a later stage Chris, this is a game developed by a limited number of people (indie game), so you can't expect it to work just like that.
Just pop in at patch 181 or 182 instead, there are plenty of other games out there to play :)
Something im most disappointed about is the lack of maps, i mean we would still be running around the same two if it wasn't for a member of the community, so why are maps taking so long?
Surely if you have one or two dedicated mappers on the team we should see something like a map every month or so, i mean this area of game development is pretty straightforward so it's like it's being somewhat neglected or they just don't want to release then for some strange reason, it's the single biggest thing that keeps a game feeling fresh and interesting.
Im not saying you are but don't just leave it up to the community to make the majority, that's fine once the game is out but there's no reason to make so little or hold them back while in beta, release what you have and keep working on them if necessary, really we should have new maps coming every so often with server map rotation and automatic downloads by now.
Sorry i don't want to sound negative or like im complaining, it's a beta i know, so why not let us beta test what you have?
<!--quoteo(post=1860595:date=Jul 14 2011, 12:50 PM:name=Magneto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Magneto @ Jul 14 2011, 12:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860595"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Something im most disappointed about is the lack of maps, i mean we would still be running around the same two if it wasn't for a member of the community, so why are maps taking so long?
Surely if you have one or two dedicated mappers on the team we should see something like a map every month or so, i mean this area of game development is pretty straightforward so it's like it's being somewhat neglected or they just don't want to release then for some strange reason, it's the single biggest thing that keeps a game feeling fresh and interesting.
Im not saying you are but don't just leave it up to the community to make the majority, that's fine once the game is out but there's no reason to make so little or hold them back while in beta, release what you have and keep working on them if necessary, really we should have new maps coming every so often with server map rotation and automatic downloads by now.
Sorry i don't want to sound negative or like im complaining, it's a beta i know, so why not let us beta test what you have?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cory posted about the maps here <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=114167&view=findpost&p=1860485" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1860485</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1860518:date=Jul 14 2011, 02:04 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jul 14 2011, 02:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860518"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Chris, if you are getting impatient its your own fault.
Either wait for the finished product(if you think you have to, make a refund and come back later), or test contribute and make valueable feedback.
(This game is under development, if it happens to be broken even for 200 patches[wont happen but still] - so be it, uwe doesnt promise you a perfect game at this stage - you got early access to help them test and go along until the game is finished)
PS: and i think a dev should be happy and enthusiastic about their game, its not their fault you read - "the game is now super balanced" while they say "Added some cool stuff, and changed this and that, made some improvements - check it out!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can wait, I don't mind slow development, I bought minecraft in alpha and notch keeps adding pretty useless features, but what I like is that each patch is purely an improvement, it isn't a significant improvement most of the time, but it's there.
I'd be totally fine if 180 contained say the fade balancing and the shotgun tweak, and skulk knockback, it'd be slow, but I'd be able to post in the 180 thread saying 'yeah these are all steps in the right direction, nothing to complain about this patch, good job guys.' I miss being able to say things like 'hey this patch improved my fps that's nice' or 'hey the server I joined didn't crash like it did last time'. It's minor but a minor improvement is better than a significant improvemrnt and a significant problem. Least to me it is.
Just very worrying when patches cause more problems, and not something I'm accustomed to, even in in-development games.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1860635:date=Jul 14 2011, 04:37 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 14 2011, 04:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860635"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can wait, I don't mind slow development, I bought minecraft in alpha and notch keeps adding pretty useless features, but what I like is that each patch is purely an improvement, it isn't a significant improvement most of the time, but it's there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> minecraft is a muuuuuch simpler game than ns2. just to add some context.
<!--quoteo(post=1860635:date=Jul 14 2011, 04:37 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 14 2011, 04:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860635"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd be totally fine if 180 contained say the fade balancing and the shotgun tweak, and skulk knockback, it'd be slow, but I'd be able to post in the 180 thread saying 'yeah these are all steps in the right direction, nothing to complain about this patch, good job guys.' I miss being able to say things like 'hey this patch improved my fps that's nice' or 'hey the server I joined didn't crash like it did last time'. It's minor but a minor improvement is better than a significant improvemrnt and a significant problem. Least to me it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> While the last patch did not improve performance, most of the previous ones did. Also the server crashes got better with each patch. While sometimes new crashes where added, overall the servers crash less with every patch. So, i really don't see what you complain about. 180 had many changes that need to be tested on large scale. Thats the live of a beta tester. Saying that just because not everything is perfectly balanced in 180, most patches don't improve the game, is just wrong. And i'm sure i'm not the only one saying that.
A minecraft also had a few patches that didnt improve it and caused 5times more bugs than before... (destroyed whole maps and stuff like that)
I can understand you, but even tho not everything worked out as well - there are some nice additions/improvments, sadly not at the sections(or the way) you hoped to see them.
(to be fair, i havent really tested 180 yet(just 1 short game) - stepped a bit away so i cant get frustrated (i guess i would have made posts similar to yours) :P, waiting for the next patch with performance improvements hopefully 181 or 182)
<!--quoteo(post=1860595:date=Jul 14 2011, 01:50 PM:name=Magneto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Magneto @ Jul 14 2011, 01:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860595"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Something im most disappointed about is the lack of maps, i mean we would still be running around the same two if it wasn't for a member of the community, so why are maps taking so long?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In fact, seeing as tram doesn't work for ###### at this time, if it wasn't for pSyk0, we'd all _STILL_ be stuck with rockdown, UWE is pretty lucky with summit.
I haven't really touched NS2 in a while as I'm waiting for engine-improvements (tickrate, FPS, stability, the whole lot). What has catched my eye however is that UWE seems to have absolutely no idea in which direction they wish to take the gameplay. Slow-on-hit isn't something you just put in for 'try-out', it's quite a game-changer, and it disturbes me how easily it was put in, and (possibly) will be removed again next build. It really makes you wonder whether there was an actual vision of how the gameplay was going to be at the start of this project.
I can also relate to what Chris0132 is trying to say. While UWE themselfs might be choosing their words wisely as not to convey bogus information, everytime a new build crops up the forum fills with posts from users along the lines of "this is the build that will make the game run awesome and be fun to play!", while time and again it is clearly not.
Also, seeing users try to tamper with the definition of beta: current NS2 is _NOT_ it folks. Perhaps we should park it in quotation-marks, NS2 "Beta".
In my experience vision either bends to practicality or you end up with a terrible game. Or you're god and therefore can make everything perfect by willing it and not bothering with the details.
In a game, as in any complex system, a simple change can have a lot of unpredictable consequences, so the game isn't going to turn out quite like the vision because the vision probably doesn't take into account the details, so you need to add in weird things to patch holes and bring it back in line. I assume the 'vision' of ns2 didn't include skulks and marines bouncing around each other for 10 seconds trying to land a hit, so you add slow on hit to see if it fixes that, which it does to a degree, so it's a useful thing to know, you now have an improvement to work from, you can tweak slow on hit to get rid of the fringe cases when it doesn't work, and you end up with a better game.
<!--quoteo(post=1860595:date=Jul 14 2011, 11:50 AM:name=Magneto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Magneto @ Jul 14 2011, 11:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860595"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Surely if you have one or two dedicated mappers on the team we should see something like a map every month or so, i mean this area of game development is pretty straightforward so it's like it's being somewhat neglected or they just don't want to release then for some strange reason, it's the single biggest thing that keeps a game feeling fresh and interesting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Making a map for a modern FPS, especially with a small team, is an unbelievably complex and time consuming process, so it is completely unrealistic to expect a map to only take a month to create. If you look at NS1 maps, and see how many areas were merely hallways with flat walls and a texture on it, and compare it to the complexity of detail found in any of the NS2 maps, it may give you a better understanding for why maps take longer to create these days.
You can ask Psyko exactly how long he's been working on Summit (and he's still not done with it by any means), but I'm pretty sure its been at least a year. Several of the other internal maps in development are much larger then Summit, and have many more unique props and textures that were created specifically for them, in order to make the maps stand out. It doesn't help that we only have one environment artist creating all of the props and textures for all of the maps (including the new assets for Summit).
I won't repeat the status update on the internal maps in development, as someone was already kind enough to link to that thread post, but the main thing holding back some of the other maps from being released is the game performance and new occlusion culling, which is especially important for the larger maps. <!--quoteo(post=1860649:date=Jul 14 2011, 03:55 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 14 2011, 03:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860649"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In a game, as in any complex system, a simple change can have a lot of unpredictable consequences, so the game isn't going to turn out quite like the vision because the vision probably doesn't take into account the details, so you need to add in weird things to patch holes and bring it back in line. I assume the 'vision' of ns2 didn't include skulks and marines bouncing around each other for 10 seconds trying to land a hit, so you add slow on hit to see if it fixes that, which it does to a degree, so it's a useful thing to know, you now have an improvement to work from, you can tweak slow on hit to get rid of the fringe cases when it doesn't work, and you end up with a better game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Very well stated. This really is how much of game development works. You start out with a general vision, but many elements carry a whole host of unforseen problems, when actually executed in game. One little change can affect so many other areas of the game, and there are any number of solutions to address the problems that arise. Something can seem great on paper, but it is not always clear how well it will work in until its actually implemented. Trying out the slow on damage, for example, was a relatively quick and easy thing to drop into the game to test, compared to many other features, and it has given us a lot of useful information to move forward.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
Just fyi, I started working on the map like 18 months ago. Of course, learning spark and improving mapping skills takes away a few months. Just take a look at the status of other community maps. It simply takes a lot of time to get the layout, detail and lighting right, and I'm probably the exception because I'm badly addicted to mapping and had a few more hours to spare per week.
It took me six weeks of solid 6-8 hours a day work to make a source level, and that's from 2004, and source is incredibly easy to work with, and i had absolutely no hitches or problems in the process, and it was for a game I know inside out, so you're looking at a lot of time just placing all of the stuff. Even if they had full time level designers working with ideal tools, it'd take a long time to make a level.
I want to start a spark level but the tools are just not finished enough to make it fun for me, and learning the tools would take a while, and spark levels are just so much more complicated, in source you drag out a brush and slap a texture on it and that's your wall, in spark you have to build each segment out of props, build up prefab segments which fit a theme, then place them, and you have to do that without selection groups like source, it'd take a long time if I had my source prefab system, I hate to think how tedious it is doing it by hand.
Besides I don't think NS2 needs new maps that much, I don't get bored of the maps in fps/rts games, that's actually one of the real benefits, because the level mechanics change with the expansion routes, you generally get very different games on the same level. I wasn't bored of tram and I'm not bored of summit.
NO one hates the devs, and no one hates the game, well maybe 1% of the people do. People get frustrated, it happens its life. Unfortunately for the devs, The average gamer is not a English/Literature Major at Harvard. These are gamers, used to typing quickly in acronyms and shortened sentences. So it is what it is, not like gamers are known for their extensive vocabulary.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1860663:date=Jul 14 2011, 09:42 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 14 2011, 09:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860663"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It took me six weeks of solid 6-8 hours a day work to make a source level, and that's from 2004, and source is incredibly easy to work with, and i had absolutely no hitches or problems in the process, and it was for a game I know inside out, so you're looking at a lot of time just placing all of the stuff. Even if they had full time level designers working with ideal tools, it'd take a long time to make a level.
I want to start a spark level but the tools are just not finished enough to make it fun for me, and learning the tools would take a while, and spark levels are just so much more complicated, in source you drag out a brush and slap a texture on it and that's your wall, in spark you have to build each segment out of props, build up prefab segments which fit a theme, then place them, and you have to do that without selection groups like source, it'd take a long time if I had my source prefab system, I hate to think how tedious it is doing it by hand.
Besides I don't think NS2 needs new maps that much, I don't get bored of the maps in fps/rts games, that's actually one of the real benefits, because the level mechanics change with the expansion routes, you generally get very different games on the same level. I wasn't bored of tram and I'm not bored of summit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I get the impression that to map well in spark you actually need to be a good modeller (or know a good modeller with spare time). That seems to be how much of the intricate detail is actually incorporated.
That may be the right approach, but it leaves us who learned mapping via source pretty lost since you could make fairly complex levels with only brushes and displacements. And when I watch things like <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113458" target="_blank">Mendasp's speed mapping videos</a> all I can think is how tedious it looks just to create part of a single room. I can totally see how it's taken psychoman 18 months just to create a single map, but I don't think there are very many in the NS2 community who have the time or patience to do the same if mapping is going to really take that long.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
everything i wanted to say to chris has already been said, it seems. so i'll just reiterate my own opinion to all those that agree with him: stop playing until 1.0 you clearly will not be satisfied until this stage is reached, and even then its not a for sure thing. you have paid to get a sneak peak of this game while its being developed and with that, <u><b>you are lucky to receive any information from developers at all,</b></u> as its not really done to this extent. if in the meantime, you insist on playing and posting, please keep it constructively relating to the game itself and keep in mind what the OP was getting at with his distinctions. personally, i love 180, game play is tightening up nicely.
cory: have patience, man. thanks for the community involvement - its the icing on the cake.
^I'm not sure why, when the topic had finally changed you bring this back up again if everything has already been said.
..Moving on..
This patch: I did find it especially frustrating I guess, perhaps just for how glaring some of the flaws felt. Cysts felt a bit rushed with how buggy placing them can get for the com, and for being what is conceptually the backbone of the Kharaa it's a bit strange how weak they are, to the point they're the main and not to mention easy target even with a decent defensive configuration. Slow on hit is actually not as bad as some make it, unless you're a fade or gorge, gorge especially since without that hop they used to have they now only have a linear escape method that's even close to quick. Going in a straight line isnt a good way to run away really, making leveling their aim on you easier and all. Cute as slide may be.
On a positive note, I did find enjoyment in cysts even if a bit flawed for now, I like the concept, placing ceiling cysts in ventilation by using the rails to get up there, along with ceiling hydras, though the grenade spam puts my pretty upside-down garden out pretty quickly.
<!--quoteo(post=1860712:date=Jul 14 2011, 10:50 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jul 14 2011, 10:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I get the impression that to map well in spark you actually need to be a good modeller (or know a good modeller with spare time). That seems to be how much of the intricate detail is actually incorporated.
That may be the right approach, but it leaves us who learned mapping via source pretty lost since you could make fairly complex levels with only brushes and displacements. And when I watch things like <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113458" target="_blank">Mendasp's speed mapping videos</a> all I can think is how tedious it looks just to create part of a single room. I can totally see how it's taken psychoman 18 months just to create a single map, but I don't think there are very many in the NS2 community who have the time or patience to do the same if mapping is going to really take that long.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah you don't need to be a good modeller, UWE are being pretty smart with their assets, lots of things are designed to basically clip together in different ways, take summit and tram, both look very different visually, but neither one uses different models (except that new reactor prop in summit, but most of it is stock stuff).
Think of it like source, except anything you would make out of brushes and textures, you make out of the stock props aligned in different ways, spark uses props like source uses textures, combined with spark's ability to scale props you can make some nice looking things, even with the current very brown asset set.
Once they add in source-like grouping (which i assume they will as it's an excellent feature) it will be a lot easier, because then all you do is spend a while making prefab light fixtures, prefab staircases, prefab wall and floor sections which fit your theme, and then you snap your corridors and rooms together out of those. It's how I map in source anyway, the difference is, spark lets you do that for every surface in the map, not just for the occasional bit of detail. It shouldn't be too much slower than brushes once you get going and build a good library of prefabs.
I don't really like the new implemented alien commander having to jump form hive to hive to use the energy from the other hives on the map. I was in a game yesterday and I thought to myself "is there even an alien commander?" well, there was one but he was most likely in one of the newer hives (aliens had map control) however, his drifter output was lacking so I decided to help by jumping in the main hive which believe it or not had 200 energy just waiting to be used. I quickly jumped on the opportunity that should have already been done by the current commander and placed multiple pustules and crags. Crags are very important late game for aliens because of the umbra. I ended up helping enough to sway the battle for my team against 3 arcs guarded by the entire team of marines which were quickly dispatched by good teamwork (by that time I got out of the hive and joined in as fade). Shortly after my connection failed just because my ISP is poor so I don't know the entire outcome but surely the aliens won.. the marines were out of res.
Anyways, the system kind of works but for people that don't know about it - there is energy going to waste on the hives that the commander is not in. So are the aliens just supposed to know that the new patch is like this? Anyways, I had practiced beforehand so I knew about this well before I joined the match, but just think that's a bunch of energy going to waste for a team too focused on combat, I think the alien commander shouldn't really have to move from the hive, and if he does, getting in a hive nearer to the marine base shouldn't take away the ability to select the other hives to build drifters from.
Also, this is a patch 179 observation, what can be done about noob commanders having poor building choices? I had an alien commander once that dropped crags. Great right? Yeah well they were all clustered around a hive. This is the most useless, lazy, nonstrategic thing ever!!!!!!!!! I wish alien buildings were recyclable for at least energy so I could replace the useless crags and make them so that getting to them as fade doesn't take the entire energy bar, not to mention a couple ARC's could wipe out the crags and the hive, which I'm pretty sure happened. I wouldn't know because I left that match I was so upset with the (multiple) commanders poor strategy.
Lastly, sentry turrets. They're not all that bad but I really wish there was a limit to how many they could build dependent on how many tech points they have, or power points they control, either way I think they should be limited. I only suggest this because of strange lag I get with them though; marines once held heliport with so many turrets my frame rate dropped to 3fps or so trying to get into heliport and do damage. This was combined with the frustrating crag placement from the alien commander who dropped 6 crags in marine start, forcing me to blink all the way through flight control - which was risky as hell btw - to heal up, then I had to blink all the way to do another 3% damage to their IPs that they would most likely repair. Very frustrating!
Also I've seen another match that had so many sentry turrets it lagged the entire server, even though the frame rate showed 24 and the players had good ping there was a definite warping effect throughout the entire level. I'm sure that will be fixed though, but still I don't think that so many turrets are necessary, this is another concept potentially of poor commander placement. A few well placed turrets should be all the marines get, at least enough to have 4 defend each phase gate area, 5 at the most, not 6+.
Lets get the turret/hydra code less server intensive, and lets add a small "sticky" movement for skulks on marines as well as walls to allow for better melee, rather then hit on impact.
Complaints about the most recent patches are amusing to me, as the last two versions are the only ones I've been able to <i>play</i> for more than 60 seconds without a crash. 179 marked the first time I was online for an entire game, and that was pleasing to me :)
Alpha/Beta testing is when you do stuff like "let's see if this idea breaks the game." I don't see why people are getting so up in arms about those test ideas, in fact, breaking the game... that's sort of the point. Cysts not tough enough, or too much of a weak point in the overall alien infrastructure? Guess what? You don't find that stuff out until you test it. All this screaming "take out cysts!" is ridiculous... it's been determined they have issues and those issues are going to be addressed.
Comments
Just pop in at patch 181 or 182 instead, there are plenty of other games out there to play :)
Surely if you have one or two dedicated mappers on the team we should see something like a map every month or so, i mean this area of game development is pretty straightforward so it's like it's being somewhat neglected or they just don't want to release then for some strange reason, it's the single biggest thing that keeps a game feeling fresh and interesting.
Im not saying you are but don't just leave it up to the community to make the majority, that's fine once the game is out but there's no reason to make so little or hold them back while in beta, release what you have and keep working on them if necessary, really we should have new maps coming every so often with server map rotation and automatic downloads by now.
Sorry i don't want to sound negative or like im complaining, it's a beta i know, so why not let us beta test what you have?
Surely if you have one or two dedicated mappers on the team we should see something like a map every month or so, i mean this area of game development is pretty straightforward so it's like it's being somewhat neglected or they just don't want to release then for some strange reason, it's the single biggest thing that keeps a game feeling fresh and interesting.
Im not saying you are but don't just leave it up to the community to make the majority, that's fine once the game is out but there's no reason to make so little or hold them back while in beta, release what you have and keep working on them if necessary, really we should have new maps coming every so often with server map rotation and automatic downloads by now.
Sorry i don't want to sound negative or like im complaining, it's a beta i know, so why not let us beta test what you have?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cory posted about the maps here
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=114167&view=findpost&p=1860485" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1860485</a>
Either wait for the finished product(if you think you have to, make a refund and come back later), or test contribute and make valueable feedback.
(This game is under development, if it happens to be broken even for 200 patches[wont happen but still] - so be it, uwe doesnt promise you a perfect game at this stage - you got early access to help them test and go along until the game is finished)
PS: and i think a dev should be happy and enthusiastic about their game, its not their fault you read - "the game is now super balanced" while they say "Added some cool stuff, and changed this and that, made some improvements - check it out!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can wait, I don't mind slow development, I bought minecraft in alpha and notch keeps adding pretty useless features, but what I like is that each patch is purely an improvement, it isn't a significant improvement most of the time, but it's there.
I'd be totally fine if 180 contained say the fade balancing and the shotgun tweak, and skulk knockback, it'd be slow, but I'd be able to post in the 180 thread saying 'yeah these are all steps in the right direction, nothing to complain about this patch, good job guys.' I miss being able to say things like 'hey this patch improved my fps that's nice' or 'hey the server I joined didn't crash like it did last time'. It's minor but a minor improvement is better than a significant improvemrnt and a significant problem. Least to me it is.
Just very worrying when patches cause more problems, and not something I'm accustomed to, even in in-development games.
minecraft is a muuuuuch simpler game than ns2. just to add some context.
<!--quoteo(post=1860635:date=Jul 14 2011, 04:37 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 14 2011, 04:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860635"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd be totally fine if 180 contained say the fade balancing and the shotgun tweak, and skulk knockback, it'd be slow, but I'd be able to post in the 180 thread saying 'yeah these are all steps in the right direction, nothing to complain about this patch, good job guys.' I miss being able to say things like 'hey this patch improved my fps that's nice' or 'hey the server I joined didn't crash like it did last time'. It's minor but a minor improvement is better than a significant improvemrnt and a significant problem. Least to me it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While the last patch did not improve performance, most of the previous ones did. Also the server crashes got better with each patch. While sometimes new crashes where added, overall the servers crash less with every patch.
So, i really don't see what you complain about. 180 had many changes that need to be tested on large scale. Thats the live of a beta tester. Saying that just because not everything is perfectly balanced in 180, most patches don't improve the game, is just wrong. And i'm sure i'm not the only one saying that.
I can understand you, but even tho not everything worked out as well - there are some nice additions/improvments, sadly not at the sections(or the way) you hoped to see them.
(to be fair, i havent really tested 180 yet(just 1 short game) - stepped a bit away so i cant get frustrated (i guess i would have made posts similar to yours) :P, waiting for the next patch with performance improvements hopefully 181 or 182)
In fact, seeing as tram doesn't work for ###### at this time, if it wasn't for pSyk0, we'd all _STILL_ be stuck with rockdown, UWE is pretty lucky with summit.
I haven't really touched NS2 in a while as I'm waiting for engine-improvements (tickrate, FPS, stability, the whole lot). What has catched my eye however is that UWE seems to have absolutely no idea in which direction they wish to take the gameplay. Slow-on-hit isn't something you just put in for 'try-out', it's quite a game-changer, and it disturbes me how easily it was put in, and (possibly) will be removed again next build. It really makes you wonder whether there was an actual vision of how the gameplay was going to be at the start of this project.
I can also relate to what Chris0132 is trying to say. While UWE themselfs might be choosing their words wisely as not to convey bogus information, everytime a new build crops up the forum fills with posts from users along the lines of "this is the build that will make the game run awesome and be fun to play!", while time and again it is clearly not.
Also, seeing users try to tamper with the definition of beta: current NS2 is _NOT_ it folks. Perhaps we should park it in quotation-marks, NS2 "Beta".
In a game, as in any complex system, a simple change can have a lot of unpredictable consequences, so the game isn't going to turn out quite like the vision because the vision probably doesn't take into account the details, so you need to add in weird things to patch holes and bring it back in line. I assume the 'vision' of ns2 didn't include skulks and marines bouncing around each other for 10 seconds trying to land a hit, so you add slow on hit to see if it fixes that, which it does to a degree, so it's a useful thing to know, you now have an improvement to work from, you can tweak slow on hit to get rid of the fringe cases when it doesn't work, and you end up with a better game.
Making a map for a modern FPS, especially with a small team, is an unbelievably complex and time consuming process, so it is completely unrealistic to expect a map to only take a month to create. If you look at NS1 maps, and see how many areas were merely hallways with flat walls and a texture on it, and compare it to the complexity of detail found in any of the NS2 maps, it may give you a better understanding for why maps take longer to create these days.
You can ask Psyko exactly how long he's been working on Summit (and he's still not done with it by any means), but I'm pretty sure its been at least a year. Several of the other internal maps in development are much larger then Summit, and have many more unique props and textures that were created specifically for them, in order to make the maps stand out. It doesn't help that we only have one environment artist creating all of the props and textures for all of the maps (including the new assets for Summit).
I won't repeat the status update on the internal maps in development, as someone was already kind enough to link to that thread post, but the main thing holding back some of the other maps from being released is the game performance and new occlusion culling, which is especially important for the larger maps.
<!--quoteo(post=1860649:date=Jul 14 2011, 03:55 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 14 2011, 03:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860649"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In a game, as in any complex system, a simple change can have a lot of unpredictable consequences, so the game isn't going to turn out quite like the vision because the vision probably doesn't take into account the details, so you need to add in weird things to patch holes and bring it back in line. I assume the 'vision' of ns2 didn't include skulks and marines bouncing around each other for 10 seconds trying to land a hit, so you add slow on hit to see if it fixes that, which it does to a degree, so it's a useful thing to know, you now have an improvement to work from, you can tweak slow on hit to get rid of the fringe cases when it doesn't work, and you end up with a better game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very well stated. This really is how much of game development works. You start out with a general vision, but many elements carry a whole host of unforseen problems, when actually executed in game. One little change can affect so many other areas of the game, and there are any number of solutions to address the problems that arise. Something can seem great on paper, but it is not always clear how well it will work in until its actually implemented. Trying out the slow on damage, for example, was a relatively quick and easy thing to drop into the game to test, compared to many other features, and it has given us a lot of useful information to move forward.
--Cory
Of course, learning spark and improving mapping skills takes away a few months.
Just take a look at the status of other community maps. It simply takes a lot of time to get the layout, detail and lighting right, and I'm probably the exception because I'm badly addicted to mapping and had a few more hours to spare per week.
I want to start a spark level but the tools are just not finished enough to make it fun for me, and learning the tools would take a while, and spark levels are just so much more complicated, in source you drag out a brush and slap a texture on it and that's your wall, in spark you have to build each segment out of props, build up prefab segments which fit a theme, then place them, and you have to do that without selection groups like source, it'd take a long time if I had my source prefab system, I hate to think how tedious it is doing it by hand.
Besides I don't think NS2 needs new maps that much, I don't get bored of the maps in fps/rts games, that's actually one of the real benefits, because the level mechanics change with the expansion routes, you generally get very different games on the same level. I wasn't bored of tram and I'm not bored of summit.
NO one hates the devs, and no one hates the game, well maybe 1% of the people do. People get frustrated, it happens its life. Unfortunately for the devs, The average gamer is not a English/Literature Major at Harvard. These are gamers, used to typing quickly in acronyms and shortened sentences. So it is what it is, not like gamers are known for their extensive vocabulary.
I want to start a spark level but the tools are just not finished enough to make it fun for me, and learning the tools would take a while, and spark levels are just so much more complicated, in source you drag out a brush and slap a texture on it and that's your wall, in spark you have to build each segment out of props, build up prefab segments which fit a theme, then place them, and you have to do that without selection groups like source, it'd take a long time if I had my source prefab system, I hate to think how tedious it is doing it by hand.
Besides I don't think NS2 needs new maps that much, I don't get bored of the maps in fps/rts games, that's actually one of the real benefits, because the level mechanics change with the expansion routes, you generally get very different games on the same level. I wasn't bored of tram and I'm not bored of summit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I get the impression that to map well in spark you actually need to be a good modeller (or know a good modeller with spare time). That seems to be how much of the intricate detail is actually incorporated.
That may be the right approach, but it leaves us who learned mapping via source pretty lost since you could make fairly complex levels with only brushes and displacements. And when I watch things like <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113458" target="_blank">Mendasp's speed mapping videos</a> all I can think is how tedious it looks just to create part of a single room. I can totally see how it's taken psychoman 18 months just to create a single map, but I don't think there are very many in the NS2 community who have the time or patience to do the same if mapping is going to really take that long.
so i'll just reiterate my own opinion to all those that agree with him: stop playing until 1.0
you clearly will not be satisfied until this stage is reached, and even then its not a for sure thing. you have paid to get a sneak peak of this game while its being developed and with that, <u><b>you are lucky to receive any information from developers at all,</b></u> as its not really done to this extent.
if in the meantime, you insist on playing and posting, please keep it constructively relating to the game itself and keep in mind what the OP was getting at with his distinctions. personally, i love 180, game play is tightening up nicely.
cory: have patience, man. thanks for the community involvement - its the icing on the cake.
..Moving on..
This patch: I did find it especially frustrating I guess, perhaps just for how glaring some of the flaws felt. Cysts felt a bit rushed with how buggy placing them can get for the com, and for being what is conceptually the backbone of the Kharaa it's a bit strange how weak they are, to the point they're the main and not to mention easy target even with a decent defensive configuration. Slow on hit is actually not as bad as some make it, unless you're a fade or gorge, gorge especially since without that hop they used to have they now only have a linear escape method that's even close to quick. Going in a straight line isnt a good way to run away really, making leveling their aim on you easier and all. Cute as slide may be.
On a positive note, I did find enjoyment in cysts even if a bit flawed for now, I like the concept, placing ceiling cysts in ventilation by using the rails to get up there, along with ceiling hydras, though the grenade spam puts my pretty upside-down garden out pretty quickly.
That may be the right approach, but it leaves us who learned mapping via source pretty lost since you could make fairly complex levels with only brushes and displacements. And when I watch things like <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113458" target="_blank">Mendasp's speed mapping videos</a> all I can think is how tedious it looks just to create part of a single room. I can totally see how it's taken psychoman 18 months just to create a single map, but I don't think there are very many in the NS2 community who have the time or patience to do the same if mapping is going to really take that long.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah you don't need to be a good modeller, UWE are being pretty smart with their assets, lots of things are designed to basically clip together in different ways, take summit and tram, both look very different visually, but neither one uses different models (except that new reactor prop in summit, but most of it is stock stuff).
Think of it like source, except anything you would make out of brushes and textures, you make out of the stock props aligned in different ways, spark uses props like source uses textures, combined with spark's ability to scale props you can make some nice looking things, even with the current very brown asset set.
Once they add in source-like grouping (which i assume they will as it's an excellent feature) it will be a lot easier, because then all you do is spend a while making prefab light fixtures, prefab staircases, prefab wall and floor sections which fit your theme, and then you snap your corridors and rooms together out of those. It's how I map in source anyway, the difference is, spark lets you do that for every surface in the map, not just for the occasional bit of detail. It shouldn't be too much slower than brushes once you get going and build a good library of prefabs.
Anyways, the system kind of works but for people that don't know about it - there is energy going to waste on the hives that the commander is not in. So are the aliens just supposed to know that the new patch is like this? Anyways, I had practiced beforehand so I knew about this well before I joined the match, but just think that's a bunch of energy going to waste for a team too focused on combat, I think the alien commander shouldn't really have to move from the hive, and if he does, getting in a hive nearer to the marine base shouldn't take away the ability to select the other hives to build drifters from.
Also, this is a patch 179 observation, what can be done about noob commanders having poor building choices? I had an alien commander once that dropped crags. Great right? Yeah well they were all clustered around a hive. This is the most useless, lazy, nonstrategic thing ever!!!!!!!!! I wish alien buildings were recyclable for at least energy so I could replace the useless crags and make them so that getting to them as fade doesn't take the entire energy bar, not to mention a couple ARC's could wipe out the crags and the hive, which I'm pretty sure happened. I wouldn't know because I left that match I was so upset with the (multiple) commanders poor strategy.
Lastly, sentry turrets. They're not all that bad but I really wish there was a limit to how many they could build dependent on how many tech points they have, or power points they control, either way I think they should be limited. I only suggest this because of strange lag I get with them though; marines once held heliport with so many turrets my frame rate dropped to 3fps or so trying to get into heliport and do damage. This was combined with the frustrating crag placement from the alien commander who dropped 6 crags in marine start, forcing me to blink all the way through flight control - which was risky as hell btw - to heal up, then I had to blink all the way to do another 3% damage to their IPs that they would most likely repair. Very frustrating!
Also I've seen another match that had so many sentry turrets it lagged the entire server, even though the frame rate showed 24 and the players had good ping there was a definite warping effect throughout the entire level. I'm sure that will be fixed though, but still I don't think that so many turrets are necessary, this is another concept potentially of poor commander placement. A few well placed turrets should be all the marines get, at least enough to have 4 defend each phase gate area, 5 at the most, not 6+.
Alpha/Beta testing is when you do stuff like "let's see if this idea breaks the game." I don't see why people are getting so up in arms about those test ideas, in fact, breaking the game... that's sort of the point. Cysts not tough enough, or too much of a weak point in the overall alien infrastructure? Guess what? You don't find that stuff out until you test it. All this screaming "take out cysts!" is ridiculous... it's been determined they have issues and those issues are going to be addressed.
Welcome to testing unfinished games. Enjoy!