Keep all major versions...
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Join Date: 2002-12-20 Member: 11220Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2002-12-20 Member: 11220Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">...with minimal splitting of the community</div>If you look at NS1 development, you'll see that it went in fits and starts; with major changes(e.g. 1.0, 2.0, 3.0), followed by bug and balance changes(e.g. 1.01, 3.1). NS 1.04, 2.01 and 3.2 were the most up to date major versions; they were all fun games but they were not the same game, they all played rather differently.
Because they were so different, it would have been fun to allow 1.04 and 2.01 to retire gracefully, instead of abruptly being replaced. The idea is that if implemented correctly a client should be able to join a server running any of the major versions, right out of the box. A server should be able to switch between any of the major versions on the fly as easily as you would change a map; the server browser would display servers running any of the major versions of the game without any user effort. The old versions would still live on, but they would not outshadow the newest version; they would provide a fun change of pace once in a while.
Since they gameplay code was implemented in a .dll and unknownworlds had no control over the goldsrc engine code, it would have been difficult to implement this in a HL mod.
Now it is definitely possible, and I don't think it would be too insanely labour intensive if planned for in advance. You'd have to keep any art asset or map that had been altered or removed. You'd have to keep the LUA code associated with each major version, and you'd have to support an engine interface for each major version. Since most art assets don't change(rather, new ones are added) and are rarely removed, and since maps don't consume more than a few tens of megabytes at most, this would not increase the disk space required all that much.
This backward compatibility in the engine interface would also make sure NS2 mods don't go obsolete. They'll go out of date; they won't automatically be using the newest engine features if any are implemented; but they will not be rendered unplayable by a change or upgrade to the engine.
Because they were so different, it would have been fun to allow 1.04 and 2.01 to retire gracefully, instead of abruptly being replaced. The idea is that if implemented correctly a client should be able to join a server running any of the major versions, right out of the box. A server should be able to switch between any of the major versions on the fly as easily as you would change a map; the server browser would display servers running any of the major versions of the game without any user effort. The old versions would still live on, but they would not outshadow the newest version; they would provide a fun change of pace once in a while.
Since they gameplay code was implemented in a .dll and unknownworlds had no control over the goldsrc engine code, it would have been difficult to implement this in a HL mod.
Now it is definitely possible, and I don't think it would be too insanely labour intensive if planned for in advance. You'd have to keep any art asset or map that had been altered or removed. You'd have to keep the LUA code associated with each major version, and you'd have to support an engine interface for each major version. Since most art assets don't change(rather, new ones are added) and are rarely removed, and since maps don't consume more than a few tens of megabytes at most, this would not increase the disk space required all that much.
This backward compatibility in the engine interface would also make sure NS2 mods don't go obsolete. They'll go out of date; they won't automatically be using the newest engine features if any are implemented; but they will not be rendered unplayable by a change or upgrade to the engine.
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The part where you're automatically having all major versions installed, seeing all servers running any version and can effortlessly go from one to another without friction just as easily as you can go between NS and CO servers.
I believe the real issue is nostalgia. I believe a lot of people miss <i>learning</i> how to play the game, all the innocent and silly mistakes we made because we were noobs. I believe it is the joy of discovery that many of us miss. Unfortunately, reinstalling an old version of the game wont bring that back. Only a lobotomy would. :(
One version, one game, much better.
So people keep telling me about old games and game mechanics in general; but it fails even the sniff test.
NS 3.2 is a better, more balanced game than NS 1.04. But I took good advantage of many of the NS 1.04 weekends and had a thoroughly enjoyable time. It just isn't nostalgia or I wouldn't sit down and play it for hours when given a chance. NS 1.04 was a very different game to NS 2.0 and you get satiated and bored playing the same game over and over.
I still do sit down and play old games rather frequently. If it's nostalgia, how is it that I can sit down and play doom for hours, yet doom III bores the hell out of me in 10 minutes? How is it that daggerfall keeps my attention much better than oblivion? TFC rather than TF2? Deus ex rather than deus ex 2? Gothic 1 and 2 rather than 3 and 4? Duke 3d rather than duke nukem forever?
Code and art assets rot like potatoes; gameplay is timeless.
<!--quoteo(post=1861270:date=Jul 17 2011, 06:23 PM:name=Rokiyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rokiyo @ Jul 17 2011, 06:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861270"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe a lot of people miss learning how to play the game, all the innocent and silly mistakes we made because we were noobs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't agree. I remember picking up NS around 1.02 or 1.01 and not thinking very highly of it at all. It was somewhere into 1.03 that I really started to like the game after having slogged through all the boring initial learning and newbie mistakes. Mastery is the fun part; having learnt how all the tools in the toolbox works you get to figure out how to combine them for best effect and how to apply them in new and interesting ways.
Does the existance of CO servers and terrible "fun" map server force you to play there?
Almost certainly, but that's not my goal. I want the good effects of keeping all major versions of the game(more diversity, probably slightly larger player count overall; just like CO servers, which appears to have attracted players who were interested in CO without removing players interested in NS) with the least of the bad effects.
I know players who just plain left NS after the NS 1.04 -> NS 2.0 transition and never came back.
I know players who just plain left NS after the NS 1.04 -> NS 2.0 transition and never came back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I also question whether UWE will put out more than one major version of NS2 after the v1 release. I imagine we will see some bug fixes and a bunch of work on the tools (cinematics, map, mod editor, etc.) but nothing that substantially changes gameplay. I'm sure Charlie, Max, Cory, etc have other cool game ideas that they would like to try out on their new engine once NS2 is more or less finished.
The beauty of open source is that it isn't entirely up to them.
I've got the last two builds archived, and there isn't much stopping me from hosting those as custom mods or legacy versions.
I fully support this idea. If UWE doesn't want to, someone from the community can just as easily.
That depends, how many populated unmodded UK servers are there that don't run CO or siege maps?
I've got the last two builds archived, and there isn't much stopping me from hosting those as custom mods or legacy versions.
I fully support this idea. If UWE doesn't want to, someone from the community can just as easily.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but you'd probably have a hard time getting many people to play a buggy, unsupported version of NS2. I'd say this would only be useful if UWE went under and stopped development of NS2.
you forgot Fallout 1&2 rather than Fallout 3.
Every mod is a (varying level of) buggy, unsupported version of the game it's spawned from. NS1 once was exactly that; didn't stop us from playing it.
If there's a legacy version that proves more popular than the current, I'm sure there are enough dedicated people here that would be willing to bring things up to date whilst keeping the old facets that they favor.
People talk about 1.04, but you can still maintain such legacy gameplay simply by having a mod alter the existing code-base. It's simpler, faster and you will get the benefits of Engine\Lua-improvements of the latest builds. It's just a matter of modders learning to cleverly hook into the game and alter things that way, instead of a complete fork.