<!--quoteo(post=1865038:date=Jul 31 2011, 05:43 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Jul 31 2011, 05:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wish the secondary strike could take the role it was apparently meant for, stabbing infantry to death. Its just so slow and clunky though with the wind up and noise, it doesn't one shot them or anything either.
I don't think the answer is increasing blink cost, we already effectively do increase blink cost by setting fades on fire, they still get away just fine, the answer is to lower fade health and armor so that attacking groups of marines is a deadly proposition without support or some kind of serious advantage. I'd honestly really like to get rid of the fade blink noise, lower their health, and increase their secondary fire damage, to slay instantly at equal melee vs armor, and slow down blink traveling. This means fades would be able to more easily reach ambush positions, and also silently appear behind a marine before eviscerating someone and ditching, very much in the same way the trailer showed, but if he tried a frontal assault or just blinked at the enemy and then at the corner, he'd get gunned down.
The fade would essentially become a resource leech to the enemy, appearing, slaying someone, and vanishing before retribution could be brought if he did it right, so that suddenly those 5 marines heading to your base become four, then three, then two, and then one, before getting overwhelmed, being forced to retreat, or being stalked and killed by the hunting fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again turning it into a very expensive version of the skulk.
The aliens don't need another glass cannon, what they need is a general unit that can get shot quite a bit, do a good bit of damage, and maybe has some specialist equipment for dealing with unique situations like exosuits or jetpackers.
Essentially they need the fade as it was before the blink change, blink being a utility power rather than a very unreliable godmode.
A teleporting unit that can one shot people is a terrible idea, play against fades without all your armor upgades and see how terrible it is.
As a side note, why do armor/weapon upgrades exist anyway? They don't do anything significant other than make random lifeforms horribly bad/stupidly good until both sides max them out.
I don't see it as an expensive skulk. If you're familiar with Tyranids, the skulk is more the equivalent of a hormagaunt while the Fade is the lictor. Sure, you can hide as a skulk, but it's not your MO in general. A fade is a lurking threat that has the tools to get in and out while killing off a squad member.
As for one shotting people, frankly, its either one shot or not used, its so slow that there's not much use in it without a one hit kill. Simply put, if you have no armor upgrades you're just as bad, if not worse against the fast moving skulk than the fade. As a side note, when I meant "like the trailer for the fade" I really mean it. I think you should really only be one shotting from the back of a player.
As for armor and weapon upgrades, I have no idea why they exist, they don't really do anything but give the commander something to do, even if its the equivalent of bailing water out of a sinking boat. I'd much prefer to see commanders do more interesting things than they do now. Honestly, I'd rather the commander didn't buff me at all in any way, just give us the options and we'll choose them ourselves. The commander should be looking at the tactical picture, positioning structures, defenses, activating structures, etc, not playing what is essentially quartermaster.
<!--quoteo(post=1865047:date=Jul 31 2011, 05:59 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Jul 31 2011, 05:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865047"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see it as an expensive skulk. If you're familiar with Tyranids, the skulk is more the equivalent of a hormagaunt while the Fade is the lictor. Sure, you can hide as a skulk, but it's not your MO in general. A fade is a lurking threat that has the tools to get in and out while killing off a squad member.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is exactly what the skulk does, only instead of getting out it just dies and respawns as it doesn't cost anything, thus making it also a lot cheaper than the fade, what am I paying 50 res for? As I recall lictors are quite a lot tougher and most importantly, more damaging than hormagaunts, whereas both skulks and fades kill marines extremely quickly, so it doesn't matter really if one is slightly faster, except of course for purposes of annoying the other team to death with cheap attacks.
<!--quoteo(post=1865047:date=Jul 31 2011, 05:59 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Jul 31 2011, 05:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865047"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for one shotting people, frankly, its either one shot or not used, its so slow that there's not much use in it without a one hit kill. Simply put, if you have no armor upgrades you're just as bad, if not worse against the fast moving skulk than the fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which suggests there's something rather broken about the power in general, give it something useful rather than a horrible variant of the primary attack, like acid rocket, that was a nice power, whatever happened to that?
Well I see you paying 50 res so you can stick around well behind their lines to murder people over and over until they root you out, unlike the skulk which will typically be coming at you from basically the same direction.
As for the power, sure, I agree, it's not very good (and I miss the acid rocket from NS1,) though I understand why its there, its also really cool image wise, this crazy alien mantis coming up behind an unsuspecting marine and "Hsssssshhh SWACK!"
<!--quoteo(post=1865051:date=Jul 31 2011, 06:06 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Jul 31 2011, 06:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well I see you paying 50 res so you can stick around well behind their lines to murder people over and over until they root you out, unlike the skulk which will typically be coming at you from basically the same direction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Vents/other corridors/crawlspaces/using your brain can accomplish that perfectly well with a skulk, it just takes slightly longer.
<!--quoteo(post=1865051:date=Jul 31 2011, 06:06 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Jul 31 2011, 06:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for the power, sure, I agree, it's not very good (and I miss the acid rocket from NS1,) though I understand why its there, its also really cool image wise, this crazy alien mantis coming up behind an unsuspecting marine and "Hsssssshhh SWACK!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ehh, it'd be ok in a singleplayer game, but watch the marines once in a while, none of them sit still long enough for that to actually happen. Hell try sneaking up behind a marine as a skulk, it's damn near impossible because they turn arond in order to move to a slightly different location, or just for fun, and when they don't turn round they move side to side or run forward, basically you can't do any metal gear solid crap in a multiplayer game.
Yeah, about the only time you sneak up on a stationary marine is one that's repairing/building.
In any case, I don't really see the Fade teleport as jibing with the idea of a medium front line combatant, everything about him seems to scream "assassin unit!" (Admittedly, having a medium size Kharaa that could just barrel in directly but not lead the late game charge like the Onos would be really neat.)
In the end though, if the fade is made to fulfill that role, who am I to argue, just because I see fade and think "lictor like assassin" doesn't mean other people do, and that's fine.
By the way, when I mean lictor, I mean this: <a href="http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lictor" target="_blank">http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lictor</a> When I saw the Fade in NS1 that's immediately what came to mind, they even look similar in some aspects (especially the older lictor model) which I bet isn't a coincidence.
The fade does look like an assassin it's true, but the trouble is the alien team doesn't need one, hell the game in general doesn't need one, assassins are basically what snipers are and snipers in ANY game are useless, the only reason you need snipers is to counter other snipers, you could take them out and the game in general would remain unchanged.
What the aliens need is something tough, as the lerk and skulk are both featherweights, something that can do generally good amounts of damage to general things, and which is more mobile than the onos as well as cheaper.
If you gave the skulk more health and a bit more bitepower, it would become your assassin unit while also being a good harasser and general damage dealer due to their innate mobility and small size, while the fade with its tougher armor and let's say wide attack range (make it really easy to hit with claws) would be your brawler type unit, getting into combat, moving around, smacking everyone about, and generally being a pain in the neck, a good distraction for skulks in other words, essentially the fade is the striker to use the DnD term. Make blink more of a combat power, used to move around a battlefield in short bursts rather than to move long distance which is what it currently is.
The lerk would be your support class, hanging back a bit and picking off particular targets or controlling the field with spores, giving it back umbra would also be a good addition as umbra enahnces the lerk's role as the controller.
Then the onos is huge, heavy, has a few significant defensive abilities that put it well above the other classes in terms of taking damage, it would be good to push through corridors where mobility can't improve your survivability, good against turret farms as they don't know to switch to a better target, and good at being huge and obvious and generally drawing fire away from everyone else, including fades, not so hot on the damage though other than against structures and exosuits, basically the defender, good at drawing aggro.
And then you have the gorge building stuff and healing people. Useful and gets yelled at a lot because he's the healer.
As it stands the fade is trying to be everything the skulk is naturally suited to being, and the skulk is kinda just sitting there being useless. Makes more sense to do it the other way.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1865038:date=Jul 30 2011, 09:43 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Jul 30 2011, 09:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wish the secondary strike could take the role it was apparently meant for, stabbing infantry to death. Its just so slow and clunky though with the wind up and noise, it doesn't one shot them or anything either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They will be able to one shot Marines next patch, I believe. ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1865038:date=Jul 30 2011, 09:43 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Jul 30 2011, 09:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think the answer is increasing blink cost, we already effectively do increase blink cost by setting fades on fire, they still get away just fine, the answer is to lower fade health and armor so that attacking groups of marines is a deadly proposition without support or some kind of serious advantage. I'd honestly really like to get rid of the fade blink noise, lower their health, and increase their secondary fire damage, to slay instantly at equal melee vs armor, and slow down blink traveling. This means fades would be able to more easily reach ambush positions, and also silently appear behind a marine before eviscerating someone and ditching, very much in the same way the trailer showed, but if he tried a frontal assault or just blinked at the enemy and then at the corner, he'd get gunned down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Stab attack does feel quite clumsy... A delayed attack, which roots the Fade for a crucial second feels out of place on a surgical striker like the Fade.
<!--quoteo(post=1865067:date=Jul 30 2011, 10:28 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 30 2011, 10:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865067"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fade does look like an assassin it's true, but the trouble is the alien team doesn't need one, hell the game in general doesn't need one, assassins are basically what snipers are and snipers in ANY game are useless, the only reason you need snipers is to counter other snipers, you could take them out and the game in general would remain unchanged.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's quite a shaky premise to your argument. Since when are melee assassins the equivalent to long ranged snipers? Last time I played any FPS, shotguns were quite useless against snipers, which is NOT what Fades are. -_-
1) kills per minute as said before, high k/d but low kills per minute if marines can aim. 2) timing The beauty of NS is that overall strategic advantage is also a gameplay factor. If marines fail to prevent that second hive and then get subsequently get res starved and locked down from vent and flight control with only one rt, fades may indeed seem overpowered. If commanders sentry spam then yes fades will be op anywhere but where the sentries are. 3) napkin lmg math Overall fade hp armour 0 = 400 (300 + 50 armour) armour 1 = 470ish armour 2 = 530ish armour 3 = 600 lmg has 50 bullets with each bullet doing 10 damage = 500 total damage. So really technically, yes with 1 entire lmg clip you can kil lvl 0 and 1 fades. Throw in 3 marines and it takes 15ish bullets each to <b>kill</b> one. Current build performance on people's systems and rego is a huuge factor here.
I think fade balance also needs to take into account current marine movement. Its all very well to balance through numbers but the ability to dodge as marines to buy time is a big meta factor. So i would personally rather suggest things like proper crouch jumping over railings..
T3 is not out yet, as previously stated you will not think OP is so strong once they are introduced. Currently fade keeps the aliens balanced and as stated previously induces the stalemate we all experience near end game.
For T2 this game is pretty much balanced perfectly right now, if anything alien is actually at a disadvantage because we struggle for an end game currently (aside from a well organized bile bomb).
Also these are pub games and it's beta, this is why we are here to test everything out. Don't get crazy with OP threads and balancing issues when the whole game is not even introduced yet. Sure fades are strong, but marines can answer appropriately.
<!--quoteo(post=1865068:date=Jul 31 2011, 06:36 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Jul 31 2011, 06:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865068"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's quite a shaky premise to your argument. Since when are melee assassins the equivalent to long ranged snipers? Last time I played any FPS, shotguns were quite useless against snipers, which is NOT what Fades are. -_-<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When was the last time you played an FPS where the snipers could teleport across the map and stab people in the face with their melee weapons?
An assassin is a class designed to precisely kill a single target from a good position, it emphasises precise control and good positioning.
In most FPS games, this takes the form of the sniper, who fires bullets from his gun across the map to hit any target he can see, he needs to be in a secluded area to do this however. The trade off is that generally, the other classes can't touch him if he does it right, because he outranges them. The problem with this class is it encourages defensive play, as it has to hang back in order to shoot things, and all games require aggression in order to win from at least one of the teams, also it doesn't do anything another class couldn't, other than kill other snipers.
In NS, the fade teleports across the map with his magic powers to stab any target he can see with his claws, to do this he needs to generally be in a secluded position to observe the marines, catch them unawares, or at the very least, be able to get away afterwards. The tradeoff is that the marines can't touch him because he can teleport out of combat if he does it right. This is also what the skulk has to do. The problem with this class is it encourages defensive play, as it has to fall back after every kill, and all NS games require aggression in order to win from both teams, also it doesn't do anything another class couldn't, especially direct assaults which the aliens are in dire need of some capacity for, currently fades are the best they have and they aren't very good at it, if the only assault class the aliens get is the onos, that's not very good design, it makes the other classes useless for the most part as they are all variants on harassing the enemy, except for the one class that just smashes everything, it's rather poorly weighted.
The function of the classes is very similar, how they go about it is just flavour.
build a 3 crag, 1 gorge position near the frontlines. The fade doesn't have to fall back very far, and more inter-node territory will be claimed by the aliens unless marines go on the offensive. At the point where this frontline is on the doorstep of marine start, the fade becomes less important as a fighting unit and more as an HP tank. Gorges can then start bile bombing and cracking the marine defensive line.
We just had a game where marines basically built 100 turrets on the map. Each entryway was guarded by groups of ten turrets. Using this strategy, I killed 50 turrets because the marines were more interested in shooting the fade than me. The fact that the marine commander grouped arcs for easy bombing instead of leapfrogging them helped. We eventually won because one other bile bomber attacked from the power node entry point, cleared just enough to get to the power node, then took down the entire base at once.
The difference between a fade and an assassin is health. 300 health means the fade does not have to be sneaky, and it also means the fade does not have to attack one marine at a time and retreat if he picks his battles wisely. It also means that the fade is not a defensive class. He can hold his own when others are aware of him, and he can engage and confidently win despite being wounded. This is not a sniper or a spy.
<!--quoteo(post=1865083:date=Jul 31 2011, 07:43 AM:name=kaffaljidhma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kaffaljidhma @ Jul 31 2011, 07:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865083"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->build a 3 crag, 1 gorge position near the frontlines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The bad thing is, in NS2 just one marine is needed to kill the whole alien nest with a grenade launcher rifle. Today we got 2 matches, everytime the same thing happend. Aliens got the whole map, but marines stay in their base, defending it very good. The Grenadelauncher prevent the aliens from moving forward with crags and hydras. Also the flamethrower, the shotguns kills the fade. So there was no way to break in, realy the two matches take 1 and 1 1/2 hours we only won because of leavers/rage quiters. The balancing is so hard, my guess is UWE put to much for marines in the game. It was well balanced in NS1. The problem with NS2, there not realy "helpful" upgrades, the movement, sensory and defence chamber of NS1 made the game very dynamic and balanced. I realy miss the upgrades and weaponbalance (aliens and marines). The new toys in ns2 are fun but i think they do not match to ns. But its beta and we have to see what UWE will change.
Your crags were too close. Put a secondary crag base further back where grenade launchers can't penetrate. Have the fades target grenadiers specifically, and make sure the fades know how to retreat. Make sure your gorges know how to bilebomb.
a marine base with only 1 res node will eventually succumb to a tech loss when everybody's personal res is expended. Therefore, don't give them any reason to gain personal res. When they're all down to rifles, move up your crags and beat them with superior firepower.
I don't know about you lot, but don't you find playing as a marine it sometimes looks like that the fade hits you while they are still in blink? I know its a lag issue but a cooldown (0.2 - 0.5sec) after blink to use swipe, would possibly make marine vs fade fights more of a even footing?
I say this because I find more and more fades blink spamming while at melee range while swiping, I don't mind the type of spam to travel around a battlefield, I just get this feeling that fades needs a penalty in deciding to make a swipe at a foe (I get this feeling while I play fade aswell).
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Also, the premier things to do when sieging the marine base is DO NOT ATTACK THEIR BASE.
Wait for the marines to exit the base with their personal weapons, then kill them where they will loose their weapons.
Don't attack their base and give them RFK so they can buy new guns.
<!--quoteo(post=1864406:date=Jul 28 2011, 03:45 PM:name=Shilorius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shilorius @ Jul 28 2011, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1864406"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fade is fine now as it is, I think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes.. that was the time when the shotgun cost 15 p-res and had 20 damage per pellet. now the shotgun is to weak. In my opinion it was not a good idea to increase the price AND decrease the damage.
20 p-res per shotgun is fine because the marine can now choos if he prefers the GL or the shotgun. but 18 damage per pellet seems a little to less if you want to fight a fade. on the other hand the shotgun is way to overpowered against skulks with 20dmg.
maybe make the shotgun do heavy damage, more damage to armor and less to health....
But I still think that the fade is fine now as it is.
Comments
I don't think the answer is increasing blink cost, we already effectively do increase blink cost by setting fades on fire, they still get away just fine, the answer is to lower fade health and armor so that attacking groups of marines is a deadly proposition without support or some kind of serious advantage. I'd honestly really like to get rid of the fade blink noise, lower their health, and increase their secondary fire damage, to slay instantly at equal melee vs armor, and slow down blink traveling. This means fades would be able to more easily reach ambush positions, and also silently appear behind a marine before eviscerating someone and ditching, very much in the same way the trailer showed, but if he tried a frontal assault or just blinked at the enemy and then at the corner, he'd get gunned down.
The fade would essentially become a resource leech to the enemy, appearing, slaying someone, and vanishing before retribution could be brought if he did it right, so that suddenly those 5 marines heading to your base become four, then three, then two, and then one, before getting overwhelmed, being forced to retreat, or being stalked and killed by the hunting fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again turning it into a very expensive version of the skulk.
The aliens don't need another glass cannon, what they need is a general unit that can get shot quite a bit, do a good bit of damage, and maybe has some specialist equipment for dealing with unique situations like exosuits or jetpackers.
Essentially they need the fade as it was before the blink change, blink being a utility power rather than a very unreliable godmode.
A teleporting unit that can one shot people is a terrible idea, play against fades without all your armor upgades and see how terrible it is.
As a side note, why do armor/weapon upgrades exist anyway? They don't do anything significant other than make random lifeforms horribly bad/stupidly good until both sides max them out.
As for one shotting people, frankly, its either one shot or not used, its so slow that there's not much use in it without a one hit kill. Simply put, if you have no armor upgrades you're just as bad, if not worse against the fast moving skulk than the fade. As a side note, when I meant "like the trailer for the fade" I really mean it. I think you should really only be one shotting from the back of a player.
As for armor and weapon upgrades, I have no idea why they exist, they don't really do anything but give the commander something to do, even if its the equivalent of bailing water out of a sinking boat. I'd much prefer to see commanders do more interesting things than they do now. Honestly, I'd rather the commander didn't buff me at all in any way, just give us the options and we'll choose them ourselves. The commander should be looking at the tactical picture, positioning structures, defenses, activating structures, etc, not playing what is essentially quartermaster.
Which is exactly what the skulk does, only instead of getting out it just dies and respawns as it doesn't cost anything, thus making it also a lot cheaper than the fade, what am I paying 50 res for? As I recall lictors are quite a lot tougher and most importantly, more damaging than hormagaunts, whereas both skulks and fades kill marines extremely quickly, so it doesn't matter really if one is slightly faster, except of course for purposes of annoying the other team to death with cheap attacks.
<!--quoteo(post=1865047:date=Jul 31 2011, 05:59 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Jul 31 2011, 05:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865047"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for one shotting people, frankly, its either one shot or not used, its so slow that there's not much use in it without a one hit kill. Simply put, if you have no armor upgrades you're just as bad, if not worse against the fast moving skulk than the fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which suggests there's something rather broken about the power in general, give it something useful rather than a horrible variant of the primary attack, like acid rocket, that was a nice power, whatever happened to that?
As for the power, sure, I agree, it's not very good (and I miss the acid rocket from NS1,) though I understand why its there, its also really cool image wise, this crazy alien mantis coming up behind an unsuspecting marine and "Hsssssshhh SWACK!"
Vents/other corridors/crawlspaces/using your brain can accomplish that perfectly well with a skulk, it just takes slightly longer.
<!--quoteo(post=1865051:date=Jul 31 2011, 06:06 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Jul 31 2011, 06:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for the power, sure, I agree, it's not very good (and I miss the acid rocket from NS1,) though I understand why its there, its also really cool image wise, this crazy alien mantis coming up behind an unsuspecting marine and "Hsssssshhh SWACK!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ehh, it'd be ok in a singleplayer game, but watch the marines once in a while, none of them sit still long enough for that to actually happen. Hell try sneaking up behind a marine as a skulk, it's damn near impossible because they turn arond in order to move to a slightly different location, or just for fun, and when they don't turn round they move side to side or run forward, basically you can't do any metal gear solid crap in a multiplayer game.
In any case, I don't really see the Fade teleport as jibing with the idea of a medium front line combatant, everything about him seems to scream "assassin unit!" (Admittedly, having a medium size Kharaa that could just barrel in directly but not lead the late game charge like the Onos would be really neat.)
In the end though, if the fade is made to fulfill that role, who am I to argue, just because I see fade and think "lictor like assassin" doesn't mean other people do, and that's fine.
By the way, when I mean lictor, I mean this: <a href="http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lictor" target="_blank">http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lictor</a>
When I saw the Fade in NS1 that's immediately what came to mind, they even look similar in some aspects (especially the older lictor model) which I bet isn't a coincidence.
What the aliens need is something tough, as the lerk and skulk are both featherweights, something that can do generally good amounts of damage to general things, and which is more mobile than the onos as well as cheaper.
If you gave the skulk more health and a bit more bitepower, it would become your assassin unit while also being a good harasser and general damage dealer due to their innate mobility and small size, while the fade with its tougher armor and let's say wide attack range (make it really easy to hit with claws) would be your brawler type unit, getting into combat, moving around, smacking everyone about, and generally being a pain in the neck, a good distraction for skulks in other words, essentially the fade is the striker to use the DnD term. Make blink more of a combat power, used to move around a battlefield in short bursts rather than to move long distance which is what it currently is.
The lerk would be your support class, hanging back a bit and picking off particular targets or controlling the field with spores, giving it back umbra would also be a good addition as umbra enahnces the lerk's role as the controller.
Then the onos is huge, heavy, has a few significant defensive abilities that put it well above the other classes in terms of taking damage, it would be good to push through corridors where mobility can't improve your survivability, good against turret farms as they don't know to switch to a better target, and good at being huge and obvious and generally drawing fire away from everyone else, including fades, not so hot on the damage though other than against structures and exosuits, basically the defender, good at drawing aggro.
And then you have the gorge building stuff and healing people. Useful and gets yelled at a lot because he's the healer.
As it stands the fade is trying to be everything the skulk is naturally suited to being, and the skulk is kinda just sitting there being useless. Makes more sense to do it the other way.
They will be able to one shot Marines next patch, I believe. ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1865038:date=Jul 30 2011, 09:43 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Jul 30 2011, 09:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think the answer is increasing blink cost, we already effectively do increase blink cost by setting fades on fire, they still get away just fine, the answer is to lower fade health and armor so that attacking groups of marines is a deadly proposition without support or some kind of serious advantage. I'd honestly really like to get rid of the fade blink noise, lower their health, and increase their secondary fire damage, to slay instantly at equal melee vs armor, and slow down blink traveling. This means fades would be able to more easily reach ambush positions, and also silently appear behind a marine before eviscerating someone and ditching, very much in the same way the trailer showed, but if he tried a frontal assault or just blinked at the enemy and then at the corner, he'd get gunned down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Stab attack does feel quite clumsy... A delayed attack, which roots the Fade for a crucial second feels out of place on a surgical striker like the Fade.
<!--quoteo(post=1865067:date=Jul 30 2011, 10:28 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 30 2011, 10:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865067"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fade does look like an assassin it's true, but the trouble is the alien team doesn't need one, hell the game in general doesn't need one, assassins are basically what snipers are and snipers in ANY game are useless, the only reason you need snipers is to counter other snipers, you could take them out and the game in general would remain unchanged.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's quite a shaky premise to your argument. Since when are melee assassins the equivalent to long ranged snipers? Last time I played any FPS, shotguns were quite useless against snipers, which is NOT what Fades are. -_-
as said before, high k/d but low kills per minute if marines can aim.
2) timing
The beauty of NS is that overall strategic advantage is also a gameplay factor. If marines fail to prevent that second hive and then get subsequently get res starved and locked down from vent and flight control with only one rt, fades may indeed seem overpowered. If commanders sentry spam then yes fades will be op anywhere but where the sentries are.
3) napkin lmg math
Overall fade hp
armour 0 = 400 (300 + 50 armour)
armour 1 = 470ish
armour 2 = 530ish
armour 3 = 600
lmg has 50 bullets with each bullet doing 10 damage = 500 total damage. So really technically, yes with 1 entire lmg clip you can kil lvl 0 and 1 fades. Throw in 3 marines and it takes 15ish bullets each to <b>kill</b> one. Current build performance on people's systems and rego is a huuge factor here.
I think fade balance also needs to take into account current marine movement. Its all very well to balance through numbers but the ability to dodge as marines to buy time is a big meta factor. So i would personally rather suggest things like proper crouch jumping over railings..
T3 is not out yet, as previously stated you will not think OP is so strong once they are introduced. Currently fade keeps the aliens balanced and as stated previously induces the stalemate we all experience near end game.
For T2 this game is pretty much balanced perfectly right now, if anything alien is actually at a disadvantage because we struggle for an end game currently (aside from a well organized bile bomb).
Also these are pub games and it's beta, this is why we are here to test everything out. Don't get crazy with OP threads and balancing issues when the whole game is not even introduced yet. Sure fades are strong, but marines can answer appropriately.
When was the last time you played an FPS where the snipers could teleport across the map and stab people in the face with their melee weapons?
An assassin is a class designed to precisely kill a single target from a good position, it emphasises precise control and good positioning.
In most FPS games, this takes the form of the sniper, who fires bullets from his gun across the map to hit any target he can see, he needs to be in a secluded area to do this however. The trade off is that generally, the other classes can't touch him if he does it right, because he outranges them. The problem with this class is it encourages defensive play, as it has to hang back in order to shoot things, and all games require aggression in order to win from at least one of the teams, also it doesn't do anything another class couldn't, other than kill other snipers.
In NS, the fade teleports across the map with his magic powers to stab any target he can see with his claws, to do this he needs to generally be in a secluded position to observe the marines, catch them unawares, or at the very least, be able to get away afterwards. The tradeoff is that the marines can't touch him because he can teleport out of combat if he does it right. This is also what the skulk has to do. The problem with this class is it encourages defensive play, as it has to fall back after every kill, and all NS games require aggression in order to win from both teams, also it doesn't do anything another class couldn't, especially direct assaults which the aliens are in dire need of some capacity for, currently fades are the best they have and they aren't very good at it, if the only assault class the aliens get is the onos, that's not very good design, it makes the other classes useless for the most part as they are all variants on harassing the enemy, except for the one class that just smashes everything, it's rather poorly weighted.
The function of the classes is very similar, how they go about it is just flavour.
We just had a game where marines basically built 100 turrets on the map. Each entryway was guarded by groups of ten turrets. Using this strategy, I killed 50 turrets because the marines were more interested in shooting the fade than me. The fact that the marine commander grouped arcs for easy bombing instead of leapfrogging them helped. We eventually won because one other bile bomber attacked from the power node entry point, cleared just enough to get to the power node, then took down the entire base at once.
The difference between a fade and an assassin is health. 300 health means the fade does not have to be sneaky, and it also means the fade does not have to attack one marine at a time and retreat if he picks his battles wisely. It also means that the fade is not a defensive class. He can hold his own when others are aware of him, and he can engage and confidently win despite being wounded. This is not a sniper or a spy.
The bad thing is, in NS2 just one marine is needed to kill the whole alien nest with a grenade launcher rifle.
Today we got 2 matches, everytime the same thing happend.
Aliens got the whole map, but marines stay in their base, defending it very good.
The Grenadelauncher prevent the aliens from moving forward with crags and hydras.
Also the flamethrower, the shotguns kills the fade.
So there was no way to break in, realy the two matches take 1 and 1 1/2 hours we only won because of leavers/rage quiters.
The balancing is so hard, my guess is UWE put to much for marines in the game.
It was well balanced in NS1.
The problem with NS2, there not realy "helpful" upgrades, the movement, sensory and defence chamber of NS1 made the game very dynamic and balanced.
I realy miss the upgrades and weaponbalance (aliens and marines).
The new toys in ns2 are fun but i think they do not match to ns.
But its beta and we have to see what UWE will change.
a marine base with only 1 res node will eventually succumb to a tech loss when everybody's personal res is expended. Therefore, don't give them any reason to gain personal res. When they're all down to rifles, move up your crags and beat them with superior firepower.
I say this because I find more and more fades blink spamming while at melee range while swiping, I don't mind the type of spam to travel around a battlefield, I just get this feeling that fades needs a penalty in deciding to make a swipe at a foe (I get this feeling while I play fade aswell).
Thoughts...?
+1
Wait for the marines to exit the base with their personal weapons, then kill them where they will loose their weapons.
Don't attack their base and give them RFK so they can buy new guns.
fixed
/10chars
yes.. that was the time when the shotgun cost 15 p-res and had 20 damage per pellet.
now the shotgun is to weak.
In my opinion it was not a good idea to increase the price AND decrease the damage.
20 p-res per shotgun is fine because the marine can now choos if he prefers the GL or the shotgun.
but 18 damage per pellet seems a little to less if you want to fight a fade.
on the other hand the shotgun is way to overpowered against skulks with 20dmg.
maybe make the shotgun do heavy damage, more damage to armor and less to health....
But I still think that the fade is fine now as it is.
Right now it's all about shot placement and teamwork when taking one down.
Though... I have no complaints, I love the fade!