Nuclear Dawn, NS Rip Off WTF!

LunosLunos Join Date: 2009-08-18 Member: 68518Members
edited July 2011 in Off-Topic
So I was browsing Steam today when I notice this game called Nuclear Dawn advertised on the front page. I watch some gameplay vids of it and low and behold It's almost a CARBON COPY OF NS MINUS ALIENS! WTF! Complete with resource points, team commander (top down view), sentries and other structures, team upgrades etc. I mean if that wasn't blatantly copied from NS I don't know what is. Now read their slogan for the game <i>"Nuclear Dawn is the first game to offer a full FPS and RTS experience, within a single gameplay model, without crippling or diluting either side of the game."</i> Obviously I call BS since NS was around YEARS before this rip off even entered the concept phase. I'm greatly angered and offended by this, I hope Flayra and the rest have some kinda copyright on their game because this is just too similar to be a coincidence. I say sue the ######s!

Edit: Oh and first post in 2 years, yay! Yes I'm a professional lerker(sp?).

Comments

  • pSyk0mAnpSyk0mAn Nerdish by Nature Germany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
    Professional lurkers would have spotted this:
    <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=114385" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....howtopic=114385</a>

    :p
  • LunosLunos Join Date: 2009-08-18 Member: 68518Members
    Ha! Right you are, seems I was a day late to the party. I checked the Off Topic forums for a thread like this but didn't expect one to pop up in General and not with that name. Glad to see I'm not the only one upset over this though. I'm proud to say I've been an ardent supporter of NS for many years and take great offense to others saying crap like they are the first or the best FPS/RTS game out there. I'm actually a little disappointed Cory said he wasn't too worked up over it :(
  • lolfighterlolfighter Snark, Dire Join Date: 2003-04-20 Member: 15693Members
    Why should we get worked up over this? Their claims are just marketing blurbs, nobody takes those seriously. What matters is whether the game is any good. If it is, it's competition for NS2, and competition drives people to excellence. If it isn't, people will just say "eh, good thing there's NS2 to look forward to." Either way it's no biggie.
  • sherpasherpa stopcommandermode Join Date: 2006-11-04 Member: 58338Members
    Been following this game since... 2006? Looked good when it was going to be a Source mod, then it went vapourware. Will only pick it up post-release if it gets good reviews.
  • A_Boojum_SnarkA_Boojum_Snark Join Date: 2003-09-07 Member: 20628Members
    People need to learn the definition of <a href="http://youtu.be/nXX38RwBgfw" target="_blank">a rip off</a>
  • SentrySteveSentrySteve .txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Members, Constellation
    How old are you, Lunos?
  • LunosLunos Join Date: 2009-08-18 Member: 68518Members
    edited July 2011
    Why do you want to know my age Steve?

    lol wow Boojum that was an interesting watch. I guess the Chinese will copy anything and everything...
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    edited July 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1864854:date=Jul 30 2011, 10:51 AM:name=Lunos)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lunos @ Jul 30 2011, 10:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1864854"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So I was browsing Steam today when I notice this game called Nuclear Dawn advertised on the front page. I watch some gameplay vids of it and low and behold It's almost a CARBON COPY OF NS MINUS ALIENS! WTF! Complete with resource points, team commander (top down view), sentries and other structures, team upgrades etc. I mean if that wasn't blatantly copied from NS I don't know what is. Now read their slogan for the game <i>"Nuclear Dawn is the first game to offer a full FPS and RTS experience, within a single gameplay model, without crippling or diluting either side of the game."</i> Obviously I call BS since NS was around YEARS before this rip off even entered the concept phase. I'm greatly angered and offended by this, I hope Flayra and the rest have some kinda copyright on their game because this is just too similar to be a coincidence. I say sue the ######s!

    Edit: Oh and first post in 2 years, yay! Yes I'm a professional lerker(sp?).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Everyone takes issue with that quote, and I still don't see why. NS is a horrible RTS, it can't claim to have not crippled either side of the game.

    Now I don't imagine nuclear dawn will do any better, but NS didn't invent the FPSRTS genre and it certainly can't argue that it's the best example of it.

    All rts games have the same elements, NS is probably most similar to star/warcraft if you want specifics, and fpsrts games don't generally do anything as interesting as deviating from the standard RTS approach. What you describe is how every RTS game ever has and probably will work for the forseeable future, all they (and NS) did was take the rather uninspired approach of replacing the little AI controlled soldiers with little human controlled soldiers, and voila, FPSRTS is born.
  • LunosLunos Join Date: 2009-08-18 Member: 68518Members
    While NS might not have created the sub genre I certainly feel they didn't do a half bad job with it either. One of the reason I don't like that quote is basically because they are saying "look at us we're the best" while I can't recall ever seeing or hearing the NS crew claim the same (although I'm sure they'd like to disagree with that quietly heh). It just makes them look like they're picking a fight.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1865061:date=Jul 31 2011, 06:16 AM:name=Lunos)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lunos @ Jul 31 2011, 06:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865061"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While NS might not have created the sub genre I certainly feel they didn't do a half bad job with it either. One of the reason I don't like that quote is basically because they are saying "look at us we're the best" while I can't recall ever seeing or hearing the NS crew claim the same (although I'm sure they'd like to disagree with that quietly heh). It just makes them look like they're picking a fight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Or alternatively it means they've gone with a more in depth RTS aspect to the game, which if it's the case is quite interesting to me, I'd like to see a game that manages to give a more full RTS element without making it suck due to the need for players to do everything.

    What I'm hoping they're doing is basically separating the RTS and FPS elements, allowing the commander to play his game while the players play theirs, it'll work a lot better that way for both sides, as players get the freedom to have a nice shooter game while the commanders get the freedom to not be limited by the stupidity of their units.

    If so, their claim would have some validity to it, as I don't know of any other FPSRTS games that don't regress the RTS side back five or ten years.
  • LunosLunos Join Date: 2009-08-18 Member: 68518Members
    I guess that is where we differ. I actually like having to coordinate with my team to get something done. While at times, yes, it can be pretty frustrating it's also very rewarding when it works and makes you and your team feel like you've accomplished something. I feel if they separated the aspects more like what you're saying where the commander is basically playing his own game, then it creates too much of a boundary between him and the team. You don't feel a part of your men.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    I'm not, I'm the commander, I have godlike powers, all you have is a gun.

    It's a fundamental part of any RTS that I am better than my units, they are not sentient creatures with their own thoughts and feelings and rights, they're my sword, shield, and hands in the world.

    When you try to change that you end up making a pretty poor RTS game, because having units with minds of their own is like having an FPS where your gun decides where to aim.
  • lolfighterlolfighter Snark, Dire Join Date: 2003-04-20 Member: 15693Members
    Maybe you're more cut out for classic rts games than for rts/fps hybrids then.
  • MOOtantMOOtant Join Date: 2010-06-25 Member: 72158Members
    NS1 was never an RTS get over it. If you're not convinced then think how close combat+buildmenu+mic comunication were to "RTS" classic NS1. Comm is head builder/coordinator and that's all.
  • lolfighterlolfighter Snark, Dire Join Date: 2003-04-20 Member: 15693Members
    Really? Why isn't it an rts? Key elements of the game were territorial control and resource management, both strategic considerations. It lacked micromanagement of units because you couldn't control them directly (or at all, sometimes), but those are tactical elements.

    What exactly disqualifies NS from being an rts, at least for the marine side?
  • SentrySteveSentrySteve .txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1865157:date=Jul 31 2011, 12:46 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Jul 31 2011, 12:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865157"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really? Why isn't it an rts? Key elements of the game were territorial control and resource management, both strategic considerations. It lacked micromanagement of units because you couldn't control them directly (or at all, sometimes), but those are tactical elements.

    What exactly disqualifies NS from being an rts, at least for the marine side?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=102260&st=240&p=1717224&#entry1717224" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...p;#entry1717224</a>

    NS1's RTS side was really poor from a strictly 'real time strategy' aspect. Obviously, the FPS side was truly amazing.
  • lolfighterlolfighter Snark, Dire Join Date: 2003-04-20 Member: 15693Members
    That's not the same as not being an rts at all though. I'll admit that NS was rather light on the rts side, but that's not the same as not being an rts at all.
  • SentrySteveSentrySteve .txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1865165:date=Jul 31 2011, 01:24 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Jul 31 2011, 01:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's not the same as not being an rts at all though. I'll admit that NS was rather light on the rts side, but that's not the same as not being an rts at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It's pretty damn close. The key RTS elements, the basic building blocks of an RTS, do not exist in NS1.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1865111:date=Jul 31 2011, 01:36 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Jul 31 2011, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865111"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe you're more cut out for classic rts games than for rts/fps hybrids then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I am, generally, although I do think there are interesting things you can do with the genre.

    For example, in previous NS2 versions, the alien commander had a pretty separate role from the team, but the team was still an important element, the activities of the team give the commander opportunities, if they secure an area it's easier to expand there, if they are defending somewhere the commander can push elsewhere while the enemy is distracted, and so on. Having an autonomous map element which changes the terrain by making some areas favourable and others not, <i>is</i> an interesting mechanic for an RTS game.

    Similarly of course, you could try making an FPSRTS by thinking about what makes it an RTS, strictly speaking, there isn't anything that says an RTS needs to have a top down commander, you could make an RTS from the first person perspective, still with strategic elements of holding areas, building them up, attacking enemy strongholds etc, but without the top down view. If you gave everyone the ability to make buildings then people could spontaneously work in small groups to build up and push/defend as they like. Still strategic, still real time, just not conventional RTS, and also meshing much more fluently with the FPS element.
  • lolfighterlolfighter Snark, Dire Join Date: 2003-04-20 Member: 15693Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1865168:date=Jul 31 2011, 07:27 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jul 31 2011, 07:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865168"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's pretty damn close. The key RTS elements, the basic building blocks of an RTS, do not exist in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    What, things like territory control, resource management and tech trees? Even the last one exists in a rudimentary form. It doesn't have ALL the building blocks of an rts, but that's because it's a hybrid. You can't very well have micromanagement of units if they're being controlled by different players.
  • SentrySteveSentrySteve .txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Members, Constellation
    edited July 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1865171:date=Jul 31 2011, 01:38 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Jul 31 2011, 01:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865171"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What, things like territory control, resource management and tech trees? Even the last one exists in a rudimentary form. It doesn't have ALL the building blocks of an rts, but that's because it's a hybrid. You can't very well have micromanagement of units if they're being controlled by different players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It did have territory control, although rarely was that a result of the commander planning out a specific strategy. It was more a group of marines wandering out near a hive then asking for a phase and t/siege fac. Either way, I'll give you that one. The 'resource management' must be a joke as NS1 had only one resource which was generally immune to harassment (read my post I linked to earlier). Finally, the tech tree was basic at best. I'm not knocking NS1 for any of this but to say NS1 was also an RTS is a beyond a stretch. There was a guy who had a top down view, could build structures, and drop weapons / health.

    I only bring up these flaws because I'm hopeful NS2 can correct or improve upon them. It's not easy because every concession provided to the RTS side will likely hurt the FPS side. I like the idea of MACs and ARCs because it's something for the commander to plan, control, and coordinate with his team. I'm hoping to see more commander controlled content in NS2.
  • MOOtantMOOtant Join Date: 2010-06-25 Member: 72158Members
    There's nothing wrong with NS having very little of RTS.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    There is when it means the entire game hinges on one player being willing to play a very shoddy RTS game.
  • RichardRahlRichardRahl Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104594Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1865197:date=Jul 31 2011, 03:56 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 31 2011, 03:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865197"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is when it means the entire game hinges on one player being willing to play a very shoddy RTS game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I agree with this as im usually always the guy sitting in the chair beacause my tea
    Either doesnt want to or dont know how. And i wish there was more for
    E to do to interact with the game other than occasionally droping building/packs attempting to tell people what to do so we can win or hopping out to kill a lone skulk chomping at ips. Macs and arcs are great however arcs have a tendency to get eaten as well as macs because they have to defensive ability, and as the pathing stand are almost always a waste of tres other than macs whose pathing is better than the arcs. Late game i find myself running around with multiple macs buildimg turrets beacause theres nothing else to do.


    Also sorry for typing at work on my iphone
  • DrfuzzyDrfuzzy FEW... MORE.... INCHES... Join Date: 2003-09-21 Member: 21094Members
    If nuclear dawn is a ripoff of ns, then ns ripped off gloom.
    But no, neither are rip offs.
  • tigersmithtigersmith Join Date: 2004-11-11 Member: 32749Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter
    I love how its now a Paid Game...I remember years ago it was going to be a free mod. God times have changed. Better be good.
  • SopsSops Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17894Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1865416:date=Aug 1 2011, 09:38 AM:name=tigersmith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tigersmith @ Aug 1 2011, 09:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865416"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love how its now a Paid Game...I remember years ago it was going to be a free mod. God times have changed. Better be good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Different developer
  • Konohas Perverted HermitKonohas Perverted Hermit Join Date: 2008-09-26 Member: 65075Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1865339:date=Aug 1 2011, 03:31 AM:name=Drfuzzy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drfuzzy @ Aug 1 2011, 03:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865339"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If nuclear dawn is a ripoff of ns, then ns ripped off gloom.
    But no, neither are rip offs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Gloom for the Amiga CD? Haha...
  • ZiGGYZiGGY Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12479Members
    well this thread brings back memories TROLOLOLOL
  • marksmarks Join Date: 2008-07-28 Member: 64720Members
    Like Sherpa said - when it was a HL2 mod it had some truly talented people working on it, now ..... not so much. Doubt I will pick it up unless it gets some tremendous reviews.
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