I don't think comparing aiming to BH is fair. Aiming is considerably easier than CS style BH is and it comes naturally, thus everyone gets fairly good at it. The weirdness of BH movement to viewing players (and to people starting it) is what makes it less accessible. They're already mentioned ideas for tutorials and the like, but in the end, it can't compare to how obvious aiming is (point it at the target.) Thus you're going to find less of a skill gap between two players aiming than one using BH.
Because they've said they aren't adding "classic" BH (which gives me the impression they're saying no crazy leap+strafe+turn BH) but rather a system of bounding off of surfaces, I don't think we'll see quite the problem with skill gaps I was expecting. In any, yes game, skill should make a difference, but there has to be some fudge room, a very slow and gradual improvement of capabilities between new NS2 players and older NS2 players, so that you don't end up with unassailable targets. It's not about how much skill should affect it, it's how quickly skill should affect survivability.
As for current jump spam, I can see in the animation a great potential for it to look quite good. I'm starting to see skulks moving more like this: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WskPDhUJ_Ho&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WskPDhUJ_Ho...feature=related</a>
I think with new animations it could actually look quite good, it's a movement type that isn't unheard of in nature.
<!--quoteo(post=1872663:date=Sep 2 2011, 07:23 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 2 2011, 07:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872663"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think comparing aiming to BH is fair. Aiming is considerably easier than CS style BH is and it comes naturally, thus everyone gets fairly good at it. The weirdness of BH movement to viewing players (and to people starting it) is what makes it less accessible. They're already mentioned ideas for tutorials and the like, but in the end, it can't compare to how obvious aiming is (point it at the target.) Thus you're going to find less of a skill gap between two players aiming than one using BH.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that aiming is easier to understand but I don't think that it's an easier skill to perform. The vast majority of people I have played against in FPS games are very poor at aiming. I don't think everyone is fairly good at it at all. I also don't believe the skill gap between a player who can BH and one who can't is greater than that of players who can aim well or not.
I think the difference would be that aiming scales really well, whereas bunnyhoping seems to be more of a either you can or your can't. If it were more transparent to the player though I don't think this would be the case so much, as it wouldn't be a hidden secret move that only experienced players knew about.
<!--quoteo(post=1872669:date=Sep 2 2011, 12:48 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Sep 2 2011, 12:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872669"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree that aiming is easier to understand but I don't think that it's an easier skill to perform. The vast majority of people I have played against in FPS games are very poor at aiming. I don't think everyone is fairly good at it at all. I also don't believe the skill gap between a player who can BH and one who can't is greater than that of players who can aim well or not.
I think the difference would be that aiming scales really well, whereas bunnyhoping seems to be more of a either you can or your can't. If it were more transparent to the player though I don't think this would be the case so much, as it wouldn't be a hidden secret move that only experienced players knew about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with most of what has been said. Let's take bunny hop and improve it so it is more accessible. Just in case we can convince them to put it in since nothing is set in stone and they are intelligent people who can listen to overwhelming reason. Once i break down all the items and fix them please any nay sayers chime in so we can please most of the people against it. I just dont want it to be done like... what was it called darn it. You were a man who bsaically went through hell guns blazing and just by holding the jump key (if i remember right) you could achieve speed through multiple jumps, but it lack air control in the NS1 sense. Some one mentioned it earlier and ill have to check back then edit this.
Also i am sure the devs could make this look good. With a bigger skulk it wouldnt be as OP for new shooters to shoot at. Skulks were pretty tiny in NS1 and you wasted half your clip on them at a distance (or i did lol) and when they got close it was game over.
<i>New Way</i> - Some have said it already that the devs could add a 3 jump type mechanic to jump already making it easier to time and more accessible.
<u>Crouch</u> -
<i>Old way</i> - Used to turn off sticking to the wall.
<i>New way</i> - I would still prefer to use a key to attain this but it could be toggle able or turn off wall stick after a certain speed threshold.
<u>Air Control</u> -
<i>Old way</i> - Each had his or her own style. The most impressive was the boat motion that allowed for maximum field of view. I have also seen the figure 8 motion.
<i>New way</i> - I would like to see this stay the same as this is what made it fun to master. Once you the initial start down and how to maintain it, then you have to look at terrain. To make this easier couldnt they program in a more forgiving arc? Or just make it easier to start and leave how it was maintained. It was cool to see the different methods and gave style.
On an additional note (to be fair to the devs), what do you want to see in "skill base movement". Let a smarter man than I break down BHing into a sentence of what made it fun. Bacillus or Fana care to elaborate on this?
There wasn't anything really 'fun', with bunny hopping, it was just needed in competitive play because if you didn't, you died. It allowed a single skulk a chance to out manoeuvre the marine with a chance to get in and to get a bite in before you died. If you were with a team of skulks and you bdropped it'd be tough for marines to kill all of you so they'd eventually run out of bullets and die to the remaining skulks.
While playing in exi, almost every time there was a large group of marines going somewhere, we'd surround them from different positions, then once all ready, we'd drop from ceilings, vents and bdrop in from somewhere. If those skulks couldn't bhop, they'd have died, so would have the rest.
Skulking should have always been a (obvious), skulk. Hide back toss some parasites get in position to have the drop on marines. People for some reason, just get really annoyed whenever they feel that they should be able to close a 20 foot gap against a marine. Hell, take your time, toss a few parasites, creep your way forward, whichever way you can, till you can successfully attack the marine.
I really don't miss bunnyhopping, I can definitely make do without it. I've played against a lot of you who are complaining about bunnyhopping in ns2, either in a scrim or pub. I can tell you that almost all of you don't take advantage of everything that you can do as a skulk to get closer to the marine to have the bigger advantage. Almost all of you guys do is try to run in/jump in and around it's just silly. There's a slight difference in the way that you should play skulk in the beginning, change it up from the old ns1 style of skulking and you'll get better results.
Again my position on bunny hopping, it'd be neat if it was in ns2, but as of now, it isn't needed.
edit: You used crouch so you wouldn't stick to the ground, in NS now, you don't have to hold crouch, unless if you think you'll be getting close to a wall or something, in which case, then hold crouch.
But if we go this way then mappers should keep in mind 20-30 foot gaps are death to slow big skulks. NS1 had a lot of long bland hallways that required BH as you said. Maps are said to be getting bigger by the golden pig and i look forward to this. If indeed ambush is the only way of going about it, then maps need to adapt.
RisingSun they've already said classic BH isn't coming back in for now, but that doesn't mean their wall jumping mechanic doesn't fulfill those requirements. The idea is that you'd bounce off of surfaces to move more quickly and close distance. They've said before they want skulks on walls more, not less, so I don't see them doing things to keep you on the floor. From the looks of what they're trying it's going to be a matter of leaping from obstacle to wall or ceiling at increasing speeds.
I don't think going on over and over on NS1 bunny hop is going to be very productive until the devs actually try their own system as was mentioned on page 2. Better to get an idea of exactly how to implement their system than to worry about classic BH which is not in the works at the moment. I agree with Frhoe that there are other ways to get at the enemy, but I would argue inevitably the game requires you to get face to face in a fight. where you can't ambush. That's where the dev's wall hop style movement would apparently be used to close the gap.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1872691:date=Sep 2 2011, 11:18 AM:name=Frhoe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frhoe @ Sep 2 2011, 11:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872691"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There wasn't anything really 'fun', with bunny hopping, it was just needed in competitive play because if you didn't, you died. It allowed a single skulk a chance to out manoeuvre the marine with a chance to get in and to get a bite in before you died. If you were with a team of skulks and you bdropped it'd be tough for marines to kill all of you so they'd eventually run out of bullets and die to the remaining skulks.
While playing in exi, almost every time there was a large group of marines going somewhere, we'd surround them from different positions, then once all ready, we'd drop from ceilings, vents and bdrop in from somewhere. If those skulks couldn't bhop, they'd have died, so would have the rest.
Skulking should have always been a (obvious), skulk. Hide back toss some parasites get in position to have the drop on marines. People for some reason, just get really annoyed whenever they feel that they should be able to close a 20 foot gap against a marine. Hell, take your time, toss a few parasites, creep your way forward, whichever way you can, till you can successfully attack the marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's a shame you apparently never explored all the creative possibilities bunnyhopping opened up in combat. If you had, you would never say that it wasn't fun or that it was "just needed". As for your concept of skulk gameplay, it just isn't viable. The low fps, low server tick rate, weird prediction and mouse lag is the only reason the current NS2 skulk can hold its own against the marines.
As has been previously stated, bunnyhopping doesn't actually hurt the ambushing game, it just gives players more options to choose from. In some situations ambushing and playing it slow will be the best choice, in others you need an aggressive approach. I'm starting to sound like a broken record here (you're not giving me a lot of choice when you're just ignoring all the posts that have been made so far), but I'll say it again: To balance melee vs. ranged, you need some sort of movement system for the melee side. To make gameplay interesting for spectators and to keep people interested in playing after the initial "wow, cool" wears off, that system needs to have a certain depth.
<!--quoteo(post=1872705:date=Sep 2 2011, 07:30 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 2 2011, 07:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->RisingSun they've already said classic BH isn't coming back in for now, but that doesn't mean their wall jumping mechanic doesn't fulfill those requirements. The idea is that you'd bounce off of surfaces to move more quickly and close distance. They've said before they want skulks on walls more, not less, so I don't see them doing things to keep you on the floor. From the looks of what they're trying it's going to be a matter of leaping from obstacle to wall or ceiling at increasing speeds.
I don't think going on over and over on NS1 bunny hop is going to be very productive until the devs actually try their own system as was mentioned on page 2. Better to get an idea of exactly how to implement their system than to worry about classic BH which is not in the works at the moment. I agree with Frhoe that there are other ways to get at the enemy, but I would argue inevitably the game requires you to get face to face in a fight. where you can't ambush. That's where the dev's wall hop style movement would apparently be used to close the gap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do hear you Azi, but as i have demonstrated in the past, im stubborn and wont let BH go till it is in the game. If you were to create a thread on how to make Wall jumping viable or how to do it right (this game did it right or this is what i would like to see) i will jump in and help as much as i can constructively.
But on the hand of BH we know if the argument for Bh can be made intelligently and with enough voices behind it they are more likely to put it in. A lot of this game has changed for the better through persistent posts. I do also agree with you until they implement their wall jump, BH wont be seriously considered.
edit* Also remember if we were just spinning our wheels here this thread would have remained locked. We are getting somewhere and if we can please a harsh critic such as yourself i think that is a plus. Thus my BH only thread =)
developers will realize the importance of skill based movement, and go through adding it as they promised .. OR developers will add their own skill based movement, to compensate/avoid adding actually what we had in ns1 OR someone will make mod to add ns1 skill based movement
ok guys this is the three options, what will actually happen. I personally hope they will add skill based movement, the one we had in ns1 BUT I seriously doubt it. this game has been dumbed-down so much, i'm sure the movement will suffer as well (which it already does). Although cory did say they will be adding their own skill based movement to compensate of NOT adding the actual thing needed. So you have your answer there.
<!--quoteo(post=1872663:date=Sep 2 2011, 07:23 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 2 2011, 07:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872663"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think comparing aiming to BH is fair. Aiming is considerably easier than CS style BH is and it comes naturally, thus everyone gets fairly good at it. The weirdness of BH movement to viewing players (and to people starting it) is what makes it less accessible. They're already mentioned ideas for tutorials and the like, but in the end, it can't compare to how obvious aiming is (point it at the target.) Thus you're going to find less of a skill gap between two players aiming than one using BH.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think there are some pretty sweet tricks for adjusting the skill curve as necessary. For example you can lower the starting barrier by implementing a warsow styled <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sop4AJ4kW6g" target="_blank">dash jump</a>. At that point dash and speed preservation jumping could already get players started with learning the skill. After that players could learn to preserve speed better quite naturally and even learn to gain speed after a while.
Obviously giving too much ease starts making it difficult to balance the game as the low level aliens are able to overrun low level aliens, but I believe there's more than enough little tricks to shape the learning curve to any direction necessary.
If bunny hop has to be added, make it performed by holding down the space bar please. I don't need the chore of bhopping, but I can't not use it and fall behind in the game as a result.
Overly arduous process are a bother, especially when they are not perceived as fun, but required at higher levels of play.
<!--quoteo(post=1872706:date=Sep 2 2011, 08:36 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Sep 2 2011, 08:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a shame you apparently never explored all the creative possibilities bunnyhopping opened up in combat. If you had, you would never say that it wasn't fun or that it was "just needed". As for your concept of skulk gameplay, it just isn't viable. The low fps, low server tick rate, weird prediction and mouse lag is the only reason the current NS2 skulk can hold its own against the marines.
As has been previously stated, bunnyhopping doesn't actually hurt the ambushing game, it just gives players more options to choose from. In some situations ambushing and playing it slow will be the best choice, in others you need an aggressive approach. I'm starting to sound like a broken record here (you're not giving me a lot of choice when you're just ignoring all the posts that have been made so far), but I'll say it again: To balance melee vs. ranged, you need some sort of movement system for the melee side. To make gameplay interesting for spectators and to keep people interested in playing after the initial "wow, cool" wears off, that system needs to have a certain depth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fana, bunny hopping 'was' just needed, it was fun for the first 2 years of doing it. There are as you say creative possibilities, trust me I know, like you and a lot of other old players we know the game inside and out and all that can be done.
You are also right about the reason why skulk right now can hold it's own is because of the prediction, fps and tick rate. Which is why i said right now bunny hopping isn't needed. Right now in NS2 all you need is leap, by leaping you can close a 30 foot gap within a second and end up behind the marine and have your way with him.
The only class that would need bunny hop is the skulk but once you get the second hive for leap, you really don't need to bhop anymore. Gorges shouldn't need/get it, fades have blink, lerks.. fly, onos obviously doesn't need it. I really don't feel that bunnyhopping should be the type of movement system for them. I believe there should be something that while skulks only 1 hive that there should be a way to aggressively attack marines and come out winning, since currently there's only.. Cloaking, erratic wall/ceiling running, jumping and dusting.
In short, once you get second hive, you're golden. There needs to be a movement system for the skulk, which can close gaps with marines when they only have 1 hive, which definitely does not need to be bunny hopping.
<!--quoteo(post=1872762:date=Sep 2 2011, 02:45 PM:name=Frhoe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frhoe @ Sep 2 2011, 02:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fana, bunny hopping 'was' just needed, it was fun for the first 2 years of doing it. There are as you say creative possibilities, trust me I know, like you and a lot of other old players we know the game inside and out and all that can be done.
You are also right about the reason why skulk right now can hold it's own is because of the prediction, fps and tick rate. Which is why i said right now bunny hopping isn't needed. Right now in NS2 all you need is leap, by leaping you can close a 30 foot gap within a second and end up behind the marine and have your way with him.
The only class that would need bunny hop is the skulk but once you get the second hive for leap, you really don't need to bhop anymore. Gorges shouldn't need/get it, fades have blink, lerks.. fly, onos obviously doesn't need it. I really don't feel that bunnyhopping should be the type of movement system for them. I believe there should be something that while skulks only 1 hive that there should be a way to aggressively attack marines and come out winning, since currently there's only.. Cloaking, erratic wall/ceiling running, jumping and dusting.
In short, once you get second hive, you're golden. There needs to be a movement system for the skulk, which can close gaps with marines when they only have 1 hive, which definitely does not need to be bunny hopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right Andrew, the only class that would actually NEED bunnyhopping would be Skulks pre-hive 2. Still, you can't ignore all the benefits it would add to gameplay.
For example, Fades right now are annoying slow to move around the map and as far as moving without the blink, they're just awful. Going in to a base and out requires MOST of your energy bar and most of the time after 2-3 in/outs you need to go back to the hive to heal. It's just super frustrating compared to NS1. In this case, an out of combat blink would help Fades get around immensely.
We haven't seen Onoses yet, but judging by the current in-game model the unreleased maps are going to be far bigger than Summit. Can you imagine just walking everywhere? A charge type ability wouldn't really be very intuitive since it would probably work like the Fade blink where you use it all up to travel a short distance and have to walk all the way to your destination. Don't forget about returning to the hive to heal...
Gorges are probably the most frustratingly unrealized class right now. They're required for healing but their role is just so horribly boring. Sliding around is really static to where you have a start/stop cooldown, can only gain velocity from either going down a slope or starting over... It's more dangeous than jumping up/down.
Bunnyhopping would pretty much solve a majority of these problems. I agree that RIGHT NOW it isn't necessary for skulks to have it to kill marines, but I GUARANTEE that once the game becomes more stable and maps become bigger, marines are going to have much larger advantages over marines.
Besides, I think the majority of people who are against it are ignoring the fact that bhop was actually FUN. My brain is full of mush: I can't seem to understand how someone who was in exigent doesn't think bunnyhopping was fun. There are other opinions of course, but I think if I asked you the same question in season 1 or 2 of CAL you would have had a much different opinion.
Veritas, that's my point at the beginning, bunny hopping was fun. After the years of playing competitively and doing it day in and day out while playing the game every single day, spending hours in bhop maps, it just becomes another yawn. There's nothing special about it, the only reason why I and most people learned to do it, was because it was needed to compete. You didn't learn bunnyhopping just so you could have a good time jumping around a map, you learned it to be a top competitive player. Or you learned it for curiosity sake, because it was challenging and once you finally nailed it, you were definitely happy and had fun with it, a lot.
<!--quoteo(post=1872767:date=Sep 2 2011, 03:20 PM:name=Frhoe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frhoe @ Sep 2 2011, 03:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872767"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Veritas, that's my point at the beginning, bunny hopping was fun. After the years of playing competitively and doing it day in and day out while playing the game every single day, spending hours in bhop maps, it just becomes another yawn. There's nothing special about it, the only reason why I and most people learned to do it, was because it was needed to compete. You didn't learn bunnyhopping just so you could have a good time jumping around a map, you learned it to be a top competitive player. Or you learned it for curiosity sake, because it was challenging and once you finally nailed it, you were definitely happy and had fun with it, a lot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. I wanted to learn it to be better at first. Still, the learning curve of bunnyhopping could be made way lower by several suggestions already mentioned in this thread. I disagree with the whole bunnyhopping=yawn thing though. I loaded up ze_marinebhop just to do it a few weeks ago and had a blast! You should try it :)
<!--quoteo(post=1872767:date=Sep 2 2011, 02:20 PM:name=Frhoe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frhoe @ Sep 2 2011, 02:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872767"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Veritas, that's my point at the beginning, bunny hopping was fun. After the years of playing competitively and doing it day in and day out while playing the game every single day, spending hours in bhop maps, it just becomes another yawn. There's nothing special about it, the only reason why I and most people learned to do it, was because it was needed to compete. You didn't learn bunnyhopping just so you could have a good time jumping around a map, you learned it to be a top competitive player. Or you learned it for curiosity sake, because it was challenging and once you finally nailed it, you were definitely happy and had fun with it, a lot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But you did say it was fun once. Lower the entry level skill and others can have fun too =) You sound like a grumpy old Vet =)
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2011
I think we've already gone over these points several times, so I'm going to make my replies succinct.
<!--quoteo(post=1872762:date=Sep 2 2011, 08:45 PM:name=Frhoe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frhoe @ Sep 2 2011, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fana, bunny hopping 'was' just needed, it was fun for the first 2 years of doing it. There are as you say creative possibilities, trust me I know, like you and a lot of other old players we know the game inside and out and all that can be done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That may be your experience, but it isn't mine, nor is it the experience of anybody I know who plays NS or even the majority (that know how bunnyhop) posting in this thread.
<!--quoteo(post=1872762:date=Sep 2 2011, 08:45 PM:name=Frhoe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frhoe @ Sep 2 2011, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only class that would need bunny hop is the skulk but once you get the second hive for leap, you really don't need to bhop anymore. Gorges shouldn't need/get it, fades have blink, lerks.. fly, onos obviously doesn't need it. I really don't feel that bunnyhopping should be the type of movement system for them. I believe there should be something that while skulks only 1 hive that there should be a way to aggressively attack marines and come out winning, since currently there's only.. Cloaking, erratic wall/ceiling running, jumping and dusting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Leap has no depth. All the movement systems you've mentioned were also present in NS, except for the dusting which I'm sure will go the way of the dodo when performance is fixed.
<!--quoteo(post=1872762:date=Sep 2 2011, 08:45 PM:name=Frhoe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frhoe @ Sep 2 2011, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In short, once you get second hive, you're golden. There needs to be a movement system for the skulk, which can close gaps with marines when they only have 1 hive, which definitely does not need to be bunny hopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It doesn't have to be bunnyhopping, but there are a lot of good reasons for implementing it. I have my doubts about the proposed wallhopping system.
Comments
Because they've said they aren't adding "classic" BH (which gives me the impression they're saying no crazy leap+strafe+turn BH) but rather a system of bounding off of surfaces, I don't think we'll see quite the problem with skill gaps I was expecting. In any, yes game, skill should make a difference, but there has to be some fudge room, a very slow and gradual improvement of capabilities between new NS2 players and older NS2 players, so that you don't end up with unassailable targets. It's not about how much skill should affect it, it's how quickly skill should affect survivability.
As for current jump spam, I can see in the animation a great potential for it to look quite good. I'm starting to see skulks moving more like this: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WskPDhUJ_Ho&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WskPDhUJ_Ho...feature=related</a>
I think with new animations it could actually look quite good, it's a movement type that isn't unheard of in nature.
I agree that aiming is easier to understand but I don't think that it's an easier skill to perform. The vast majority of people I have played against in FPS games are very poor at aiming. I don't think everyone is fairly good at it at all. I also don't believe the skill gap between a player who can BH and one who can't is greater than that of players who can aim well or not.
I think the difference would be that aiming scales really well, whereas bunnyhoping seems to be more of a either you can or your can't. If it were more transparent to the player though I don't think this would be the case so much, as it wouldn't be a hidden secret move that only experienced players knew about.
I think the difference would be that aiming scales really well, whereas bunnyhoping seems to be more of a either you can or your can't. If it were more transparent to the player though I don't think this would be the case so much, as it wouldn't be a hidden secret move that only experienced players knew about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with most of what has been said. Let's take bunny hop and improve it so it is more accessible. Just in case we can convince them to put it in since nothing is set in stone and they are intelligent people who can listen to overwhelming reason. Once i break down all the items and fix them please any nay sayers chime in so we can please most of the people against it. I just dont want it to be done like... what was it called darn it. You were a man who bsaically went through hell guns blazing and just by holding the jump key (if i remember right) you could achieve speed through multiple jumps, but it lack air control in the NS1 sense. Some one mentioned it earlier and ill have to check back then edit this.
Also i am sure the devs could make this look good. With a bigger skulk it wouldnt be as OP for new shooters to shoot at. Skulks were pretty tiny in NS1 and you wasted half your clip on them at a distance (or i did lol) and when they got close it was game over.
<u><b>Bunny Hop</b></u>
<u>Jump</u> -
<i>Old way</i> - 3jump script, mousewheel, normal jump key (though extremely difficult)
<i>New Way</i> - Some have said it already that the devs could add a 3 jump type mechanic to jump already making it easier to time and more accessible.
<u>Crouch</u> -
<i>Old way</i> - Used to turn off sticking to the wall.
<i>New way</i> - I would still prefer to use a key to attain this but it could be toggle able or turn off wall stick after a certain speed threshold.
<u>Air Control</u> -
<i>Old way</i> - Each had his or her own style. The most impressive was the boat motion that allowed for maximum field of view. I have also seen the figure 8 motion.
<i>New way</i> - I would like to see this stay the same as this is what made it fun to master. Once you the initial start down and how to maintain it, then you have to look at terrain. To make this easier couldnt they program in a more forgiving arc? Or just make it easier to start and leave how it was maintained. It was cool to see the different methods and gave style.
On an additional note (to be fair to the devs), what do you want to see in "skill base movement". Let a smarter man than I break down BHing into a sentence of what made it fun. Bacillus or Fana care to elaborate on this?
While playing in exi, almost every time there was a large group of marines going somewhere, we'd surround them from different positions, then once all ready, we'd drop from ceilings, vents and bdrop in from somewhere. If those skulks couldn't bhop, they'd have died, so would have the rest.
Skulking should have always been a (obvious), skulk. Hide back toss some parasites get in position to have the drop on marines. People for some reason, just get really annoyed whenever they feel that they should be able to close a 20 foot gap against a marine. Hell, take your time, toss a few parasites, creep your way forward, whichever way you can, till you can successfully attack the marine.
I really don't miss bunnyhopping, I can definitely make do without it. I've played against a lot of you who are complaining about bunnyhopping in ns2, either in a scrim or pub. I can tell you that almost all of you don't take advantage of everything that you can do as a skulk to get closer to the marine to have the bigger advantage. Almost all of you guys do is try to run in/jump in and around it's just silly. There's a slight difference in the way that you should play skulk in the beginning, change it up from the old ns1 style of skulking and you'll get better results.
Again my position on bunny hopping, it'd be neat if it was in ns2, but as of now, it isn't needed.
edit: You used crouch so you wouldn't stick to the ground, in NS now, you don't have to hold crouch, unless if you think you'll be getting close to a wall or something, in which case, then hold crouch.
But if we go this way then mappers should keep in mind 20-30 foot gaps are death to slow big skulks. NS1 had a lot of long bland hallways that required BH as you said. Maps are said to be getting bigger by the golden pig and i look forward to this. If indeed ambush is the only way of going about it, then maps need to adapt.
I don't think going on over and over on NS1 bunny hop is going to be very productive until the devs actually try their own system as was mentioned on page 2. Better to get an idea of exactly how to implement their system than to worry about classic BH which is not in the works at the moment. I agree with Frhoe that there are other ways to get at the enemy, but I would argue inevitably the game requires you to get face to face in a fight. where you can't ambush. That's where the dev's wall hop style movement would apparently be used to close the gap.
While playing in exi, almost every time there was a large group of marines going somewhere, we'd surround them from different positions, then once all ready, we'd drop from ceilings, vents and bdrop in from somewhere. If those skulks couldn't bhop, they'd have died, so would have the rest.
Skulking should have always been a (obvious), skulk. Hide back toss some parasites get in position to have the drop on marines. People for some reason, just get really annoyed whenever they feel that they should be able to close a 20 foot gap against a marine. Hell, take your time, toss a few parasites, creep your way forward, whichever way you can, till you can successfully attack the marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a shame you apparently never explored all the creative possibilities bunnyhopping opened up in combat. If you had, you would never say that it wasn't fun or that it was "just needed". As for your concept of skulk gameplay, it just isn't viable. The low fps, low server tick rate, weird prediction and mouse lag is the only reason the current NS2 skulk can hold its own against the marines.
As has been previously stated, bunnyhopping doesn't actually hurt the ambushing game, it just gives players more options to choose from. In some situations ambushing and playing it slow will be the best choice, in others you need an aggressive approach. I'm starting to sound like a broken record here (you're not giving me a lot of choice when you're just ignoring all the posts that have been made so far), but I'll say it again: To balance melee vs. ranged, you need some sort of movement system for the melee side. To make gameplay interesting for spectators and to keep people interested in playing after the initial "wow, cool" wears off, that system needs to have a certain depth.
I don't think going on over and over on NS1 bunny hop is going to be very productive until the devs actually try their own system as was mentioned on page 2. Better to get an idea of exactly how to implement their system than to worry about classic BH which is not in the works at the moment. I agree with Frhoe that there are other ways to get at the enemy, but I would argue inevitably the game requires you to get face to face in a fight. where you can't ambush. That's where the dev's wall hop style movement would apparently be used to close the gap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do hear you Azi, but as i have demonstrated in the past, im stubborn and wont let BH go till it is in the game. If you were to create a thread on how to make Wall jumping viable or how to do it right (this game did it right or this is what i would like to see) i will jump in and help as much as i can constructively.
But on the hand of BH we know if the argument for Bh can be made intelligently and with enough voices behind it they are more likely to put it in. A lot of this game has changed for the better through persistent posts. I do also agree with you until they implement their wall jump, BH wont be seriously considered.
edit* Also remember if we were just spinning our wheels here this thread would have remained locked. We are getting somewhere and if we can please a harsh critic such as yourself i think that is a plus. Thus my BH only thread =)
developers will realize the importance of skill based movement, and go through adding it as they promised ..
OR
developers will add their own skill based movement, to compensate/avoid adding actually what we had in ns1
OR
someone will make mod to add ns1 skill based movement
ok guys this is the three options, what will actually happen. I personally hope they will add skill based movement, the one we had in ns1 BUT I seriously doubt it.
this game has been dumbed-down so much, i'm sure the movement will suffer as well (which it already does). Although cory did say they will be adding their own skill based movement to compensate of NOT adding the actual thing needed. So you have your answer there.
I think there are some pretty sweet tricks for adjusting the skill curve as necessary. For example you can lower the starting barrier by implementing a warsow styled <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sop4AJ4kW6g" target="_blank">dash jump</a>. At that point dash and speed preservation jumping could already get players started with learning the skill. After that players could learn to preserve speed better quite naturally and even learn to gain speed after a while.
Obviously giving too much ease starts making it difficult to balance the game as the low level aliens are able to overrun low level aliens, but I believe there's more than enough little tricks to shape the learning curve to any direction necessary.
I don't need the chore of bhopping, but I can't not use it and fall behind in the game as a result.
Overly arduous process are a bother, especially when they are not perceived as fun, but required at higher levels of play.
As has been previously stated, bunnyhopping doesn't actually hurt the ambushing game, it just gives players more options to choose from. In some situations ambushing and playing it slow will be the best choice, in others you need an aggressive approach. I'm starting to sound like a broken record here (you're not giving me a lot of choice when you're just ignoring all the posts that have been made so far), but I'll say it again: To balance melee vs. ranged, you need some sort of movement system for the melee side. To make gameplay interesting for spectators and to keep people interested in playing after the initial "wow, cool" wears off, that system needs to have a certain depth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fana, bunny hopping 'was' just needed, it was fun for the first 2 years of doing it. There are as you say creative possibilities, trust me I know, like you and a lot of other old players we know the game inside and out and all that can be done.
You are also right about the reason why skulk right now can hold it's own is because of the prediction, fps and tick rate. Which is why i said right now bunny hopping isn't needed. Right now in NS2 all you need is leap, by leaping you can close a 30 foot gap within a second and end up behind the marine and have your way with him.
The only class that would need bunny hop is the skulk but once you get the second hive for leap, you really don't need to bhop anymore. Gorges shouldn't need/get it, fades have blink, lerks.. fly, onos obviously doesn't need it. I really don't feel that bunnyhopping should be the type of movement system for them. I believe there should be something that while skulks only 1 hive that there should be a way to aggressively attack marines and come out winning, since currently there's only.. Cloaking, erratic wall/ceiling running, jumping and dusting.
In short, once you get second hive, you're golden. There needs to be a movement system for the skulk, which can close gaps with marines when they only have 1 hive, which definitely does not need to be bunny hopping.
You are also right about the reason why skulk right now can hold it's own is because of the prediction, fps and tick rate. Which is why i said right now bunny hopping isn't needed. Right now in NS2 all you need is leap, by leaping you can close a 30 foot gap within a second and end up behind the marine and have your way with him.
The only class that would need bunny hop is the skulk but once you get the second hive for leap, you really don't need to bhop anymore. Gorges shouldn't need/get it, fades have blink, lerks.. fly, onos obviously doesn't need it. I really don't feel that bunnyhopping should be the type of movement system for them. I believe there should be something that while skulks only 1 hive that there should be a way to aggressively attack marines and come out winning, since currently there's only.. Cloaking, erratic wall/ceiling running, jumping and dusting.
In short, once you get second hive, you're golden. There needs to be a movement system for the skulk, which can close gaps with marines when they only have 1 hive, which definitely does not need to be bunny hopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right Andrew, the only class that would actually NEED bunnyhopping would be Skulks pre-hive 2. Still, you can't ignore all the benefits it would add to gameplay.
For example, Fades right now are annoying slow to move around the map and as far as moving without the blink, they're just awful. Going in to a base and out requires MOST of your energy bar and most of the time after 2-3 in/outs you need to go back to the hive to heal. It's just super frustrating compared to NS1. In this case, an out of combat blink would help Fades get around immensely.
We haven't seen Onoses yet, but judging by the current in-game model the unreleased maps are going to be far bigger than Summit. Can you imagine just walking everywhere? A charge type ability wouldn't really be very intuitive since it would probably work like the Fade blink where you use it all up to travel a short distance and have to walk all the way to your destination. Don't forget about returning to the hive to heal...
Gorges are probably the most frustratingly unrealized class right now. They're required for healing but their role is just so horribly boring. Sliding around is really static to where you have a start/stop cooldown, can only gain velocity from either going down a slope or starting over... It's more dangeous than jumping up/down.
Bunnyhopping would pretty much solve a majority of these problems. I agree that RIGHT NOW it isn't necessary for skulks to have it to kill marines, but I GUARANTEE that once the game becomes more stable and maps become bigger, marines are going to have much larger advantages over marines.
Besides, I think the majority of people who are against it are ignoring the fact that bhop was actually FUN. My brain is full of mush: I can't seem to understand how someone who was in exigent doesn't think bunnyhopping was fun. There are other opinions of course, but I think if I asked you the same question in season 1 or 2 of CAL you would have had a much different opinion.
I agree. I wanted to learn it to be better at first. Still, the learning curve of bunnyhopping could be made way lower by several suggestions already mentioned in this thread. I disagree with the whole bunnyhopping=yawn thing though. I loaded up ze_marinebhop just to do it a few weeks ago and had a blast! You should try it :)
But you did say it was fun once. Lower the entry level skill and others can have fun too =) You sound like a grumpy old Vet =)
<!--quoteo(post=1872762:date=Sep 2 2011, 08:45 PM:name=Frhoe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frhoe @ Sep 2 2011, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fana, bunny hopping 'was' just needed, it was fun for the first 2 years of doing it. There are as you say creative possibilities, trust me I know, like you and a lot of other old players we know the game inside and out and all that can be done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That may be your experience, but it isn't mine, nor is it the experience of anybody I know who plays NS or even the majority (that know how bunnyhop) posting in this thread.
<!--quoteo(post=1872762:date=Sep 2 2011, 08:45 PM:name=Frhoe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frhoe @ Sep 2 2011, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only class that would need bunny hop is the skulk but once you get the second hive for leap, you really don't need to bhop anymore. Gorges shouldn't need/get it, fades have blink, lerks.. fly, onos obviously doesn't need it. I really don't feel that bunnyhopping should be the type of movement system for them. I believe there should be something that while skulks only 1 hive that there should be a way to aggressively attack marines and come out winning, since currently there's only.. Cloaking, erratic wall/ceiling running, jumping and dusting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Leap has no depth. All the movement systems you've mentioned were also present in NS, except for the dusting which I'm sure will go the way of the dodo when performance is fixed.
<!--quoteo(post=1872762:date=Sep 2 2011, 08:45 PM:name=Frhoe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frhoe @ Sep 2 2011, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In short, once you get second hive, you're golden. There needs to be a movement system for the skulk, which can close gaps with marines when they only have 1 hive, which definitely does not need to be bunny hopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't have to be bunnyhopping, but there are a lot of good reasons for implementing it. I have my doubts about the proposed wallhopping system.