What did you do?!?

JonacrabJonacrab Join Date: 2003-08-02 Member: 18705Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester
<div class="IPBDescription">or... what did UWE do, to Ns2_tram</div>So, the last time I played tram(probably a few patches ago, since no one plays it anymore) even if it wasnt the best layout for a map, it was playable, in the sense you could finish a game. So I wanted to get a feel for some of the map again, and wow, my video card cant even handle the map anymore. It wont load half of the entities, there is significant lag with just me on the server, and the console just keeps spewing out "not enough video memory" errors. So, I was thinkin maybe they expanded the map when I wasnt payin attention. But, to my disappointment, upon loading the editor, they did not expand it (except a tiny bit in observation) So anyways, looking at it from a map editor's POV, it would seem like they were working on optimizing things, since things were much better organized in the layers and such, since the last time I looked at it in the editor. So my question is, why the video errors? The size of the file is a bit larger than summit, but not vastly. And the map size compared to summit is probably very close, if not smaller than Summit. And from what I looked at in the editor, it didnt seem like they went nuts on props or geo... so... im just wondering what the issue is, since its not apparent, at a glance anyways.

My video card really isnt up to snuff, but its reasonable, at least to play on summit, so just what did they change in tram to make my video card cry :( he didnt deserve it!

Comments

  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited August 2011
    Most likely due to occlusion errors rendering too much of the map, eating up your memory? I'm not sure if they fixed tram up with the new Occulusion Culling group, to help the engine decide what is visible and what isn't. I cannot open it in the editor, makes it either run at 0.01FPS or simply crash, which ain't all that different :P


    Try running around the map using:

    cheats 1
    r_wireframe 1


    To see what is being rendered behind the walls, which should not be visible.
  • pSyk0mAnpSyk0mAn Nerdish by Nature Germany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
    edited August 2011
    I've noticed a few issues when loading multiple maps without restarting NS2. Probably a few things that get taken over from other maps (as in not terminated and deleted in memory) and thus take up memory slow down performance.

    If whoever has these issues wants to give some proper feedback try loading Tram after a fresh restart of NS2 (and maybe even reboot to be sure) and compare it to loading Tram after playing Summit or Rockdown without restarting NS2.

    It might even be worth checking if this is connected to the level in the Main Menu. I'm not sure if one can load NS2 without the Main Menu Background level by using a command or wether it's possible to just delete/rename the .level to get a black background or something without errors.

    Edit: You can rename the menu.level in /ns2/maps/ and the main_menu.cinematics in /ns2/cinematics/ so the game doesn't load them, but I don't think it'll help.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    You could load directly into the map using a shortcut to NS2.exe

    ie: "somedrive\Steam\SteamApps\common\natural selection 2\NS2.exe" map ns2_sample-build179
  • playerplayer Join Date: 2010-09-12 Member: 73982Members
    Nah tram is seriously fubar at the moment. Just tried to load it up, but either it crashes before\inside the readyroom, or shortly (seconds) after joining a team, with accompanying artifacts\broken scoreboard and all kinds of crazy stuff.
  • fmponefmpone Join Date: 2011-07-05 Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1870401:date=Aug 21 2011, 02:34 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 21 2011, 02:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870401"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nah tram is seriously fubar at the moment. Just tried to load it up, but either it crashes before\inside the readyroom, or shortly (seconds) after joining a team, with accompanying artifacts\broken scoreboard and all kinds of crazy stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    O________O
  • PersianImm0rtalPersianImm0rtal Join Date: 2010-12-02 Member: 75414Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester
    <!--quoteo(post=1870401:date=Aug 21 2011, 01:34 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 21 2011, 01:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870401"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nah tram is seriously fubar at the moment. Just tried to load it up, but either it crashes before\inside the readyroom, or shortly (seconds) after joining a team, with accompanying artifacts\broken scoreboard and all kinds of crazy stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    Same exact thing happens to me when I try to play on this map. Its really wierd. Unplayable. Missing graphics, broken scorboard same old thing. And that is if it even can load the map lol.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited August 2011
    Shall try loading it up then, haven't loaded it up ever since my flying adventures on camera :P


    [edit]
    I can load it and it runs in between roughly 18-35FPS... You guys sure you ain't got a botched up ns2_tram?

    Filesize: 8,55 MB (8.968.175 bytes)
  • playerplayer Join Date: 2010-09-12 Member: 73982Members
    No sorry, I did an integrity-recheck and it came out fine. Tried to load it 3 times (with a game-restart each time of course), crashed all 3 times before it was able to show the readyroom. With 6GBs of RAM and 1,5 GBs of GPU-memory there is absolutely no excuse why this pile of shyt doesn't want to go.
  • JonacrabJonacrab Join Date: 2003-08-02 Member: 18705Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester
    Well, I can load it in the editor fine, no crash, no slowdown(in fact much easier to fly around in, than the previous version of it, which was badly disorganized in its layers) When I load the map, it takes a really long time to actually get into the ready room, assuming I have the patience to wait. Then once in, the fps are atrocious(like 20 at ms, but if i go near alien start it drops to like 5). At times the marine model textures wont load (gives the pink and white checkerboard) the command station sometimes has no textures, and none of the tech points will load, theres just a hole in the ground with the blue light cinematic sitting in the middle. All of this is related to the video memory errors I keep getting im sure. What I cant see is why though.... I dont see anything excessive going on in the map with the editor, and at least from a "feel" standpoint... I dont see anything dramatically different in the map. It is possible they have been doing more detailing, but as far as expanding and adding, the biggest difference is they changed the layout of observation, and possibly added a few vent areas. They have the occlusion geo in there as well, so its not that. The file size is about 2.5 MB bigger than summit, but thats all I can see that might create these issues, but it is odd that it is not just me... cuz my vid card isnt that great, and the previous version of tram was totally playable, as opposed to this.
  • PersianImm0rtalPersianImm0rtal Join Date: 2010-12-02 Member: 75414Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester
    I have even tried reinstalling ns2 many times. Tram has not worked since atleast build 170 for me.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1870461:date=Aug 22 2011, 05:03 AM:name=Jonacrab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jonacrab @ Aug 22 2011, 05:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870461"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At times the marine model textures wont load (gives the pink and white checkerboard) the command station sometimes has no textures, and none of the tech points will load, theres just a hole in the ground with the blue light cinematic sitting in the middle. All of this is related to the video memory errors I keep getting im sure. What I cant see is why though....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Sounds quite similar when I try running NS2 at high quality on my HD4850 512Mb, models don't load and most likely the game just outright crashes. Lack of Vram is my problem and the reason I can't play it on anything higher then medium
  • QuovatisQuovatis Team Inversion Join Date: 2010-01-26 Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    I still don't understand how Summit and Tram can be so different. Tram gets runs out of graphics memory and crashes, has horrible FPS in certain areas, and has poor FPS throughout. Summit doesn't have such issues. What is in Tram that isn't in Summit that causes so many problems?
  • HackepeterHackepeter Join Date: 2003-06-08 Member: 17107Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1871938:date=Aug 29 2011, 11:39 PM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Aug 29 2011, 11:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1871938"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still don't understand how Summit and Tram can be so different. Tram gets runs out of graphics memory and crashes, has horrible FPS in certain areas, and has poor FPS throughout. Summit doesn't have such issues. What is in Tram that isn't in Summit that causes so many problems?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I tried to gather some information to find the crux of the matter. At first I looked for a place with many draw calls in summit and I think such place is the alien start:

    <img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8054606/2011-09-01_00001.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    Almost 2000 draw calls but it still runs very smooth (36 fps). At the most times on summit I'am around 1000 draw calls.

    and now lets check for tram:

    <img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8054606/tram_check.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    At first you see I had to use my digital camera to make that "screenshot" because there wasn't enough graphic ram for taking it with steam or fraps.
    I got 4000 draw calls in that tram tunnel and also usually around 2000 calls on other places in Tram.

    My conclusion about that results: Trams layout/geometry is to open compared to summit which is quite contorted. Also its geometry is to complex (to much details like pipes etc.). An open geometry means there is not much for occlusion culling to do to reduce that load. At last I think there are to much textures loaded in Tram.

    Possibly solutions for tram:
    <ul><li>more barriers to help occlusion culling</li><li>reduce world complexity</li><li>reduce texture usage</li></ul>
    But maybe I'am misreading some data, further comments much appreciated!
  • JonacrabJonacrab Join Date: 2003-08-02 Member: 18705Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester
    Sounds like an answer to me... but what I dont see is why. I played tram a bit when it was the only map, the "feel" of the map hasnt changed at all, any "detailing" they did, was probably unnecessary, and obviously severely impacted playability. If they had made some major layout changes thats understandable, but it would seem like all they did was overdetail when it wasnt really needed. It would be nice if they would "update" the map with a previous version that was playable, because summit, while a good map, is getting boring :P

    It is kind of odd that tram works fine in the editor for me tho, if the reason is just because of overdetailing... although it helps that most of the map has been reorganized and each section can be turned off in layers.
  • jergodzjergodz Join Date: 2011-05-20 Member: 99745Members
    I like tram and all but I always get 20fps lower than in summit so its pretty much unplayable..
  • pSyk0mAnpSyk0mAn Nerdish by Nature Germany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
    edited September 2011
    Good observation there, Hackepeter, although 1800 draw calls at that spot in Summit show that occlusion culling is already going crazy (you can see the crossroads tunnel).

    There are two more things:
    -There are very short spikes in the draw calls when moving your view or position that suggest that the engine takes more in than necessary for a few ms (you can't see additional stuff popping up in wireframe mode though), which I think is due to all the gaps in Tram's geometry filled with props
    This issue sometimes blends in with the 2nd one below due to similar effects on drawcalls.

    -It's not only open geometry and long view distance, but too much of that and too much detail in different directions. This means, when you change your view or position the engine renders what comes ahead of you + the stuff you just saw, which can double the draw calls in some areas resulting in fps spikes.

    You can test this by slowly moving and checking draw calls and then do fast rapid movement:
    -Strafing and slightly turning from Alien Start to its tram tunnel entrance and back while watching in hive direction
    -or standing near the wall in the middle of dbl-res (repair room) and moving your view from the one entrance to the other (~180°) and back.
  • ZurikiZuriki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75105Members
    The automated culling system is currently functioning as intended which is causing massive performance issues, the manual culling system is currently not implemented as far as I know (not seen it mentioned in any change logs). Many games use LODs to lower the poly count and texture detail for distant objects and surfaces. I don't believe NS2 has any system comparable to this, which might be a large contributor to slowdowns. If such a system was implemented it might help to negate the impact of culling errors (distant geometry that isn't meant to be drawn is drawn with lower poly count/texture detail, reducing it's effective performance impact).

    An LOD system is almost imperative if UWE wants Spark to be able to support outside maps too (that doesn't necessarily mean just NS2, but any Spark-created game). Spark in all it's glory, would die if it attempted to render something like a city, or village.
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