Design flaw in alien building abilities
matso
Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<div class="IPBDescription">Why fury/umbra/cloak is never used</div>Whips have the special fury ability - it adds 10% to damage and cuts attack time by 10% as well for all aliens under its influence. It actually stacks as well - so with 10 whips, you do twice as much damage every bite, and you can bite as often as the server updates.
In spite of this, you probably have never killed a marine while using fury.
Crags have umbra, a big yellow cloud which blocks half the bullets used by a marine, effectively doubling the damage alien players can take.
But you have probably never survived a battle thanks to umbra.
There is a basic flaw when it comes to alien buildiings: they are designed to influence battles around themselves. And there are no battles around alien buildings. Pretty much all battles are fought with the ranged marines standing off and killing the alien buildings from outside their range, forcing the aliens to attack the marines in melee range outside the range of the alien buildings.
The reason why this bothers me is that it seems to indicate that UWE intended battles to actually happen around alien buildings, and they just plain don't. So, obviously actual gameplay don't follow what was originally intended ("no plan survives contact with the enemy"). This in turn means that other planned abilities based on the same ide - ie marines actually getting in range of alien buildings - are going to be unused as well (babblers, anyone?) unless there are some radical redesigns...
The question is just how nimble can UWE be in redesigning the game and still get something out in a reasonable time?
Gets me worried, that.
In spite of this, you probably have never killed a marine while using fury.
Crags have umbra, a big yellow cloud which blocks half the bullets used by a marine, effectively doubling the damage alien players can take.
But you have probably never survived a battle thanks to umbra.
There is a basic flaw when it comes to alien buildiings: they are designed to influence battles around themselves. And there are no battles around alien buildings. Pretty much all battles are fought with the ranged marines standing off and killing the alien buildings from outside their range, forcing the aliens to attack the marines in melee range outside the range of the alien buildings.
The reason why this bothers me is that it seems to indicate that UWE intended battles to actually happen around alien buildings, and they just plain don't. So, obviously actual gameplay don't follow what was originally intended ("no plan survives contact with the enemy"). This in turn means that other planned abilities based on the same ide - ie marines actually getting in range of alien buildings - are going to be unused as well (babblers, anyone?) unless there are some radical redesigns...
The question is just how nimble can UWE be in redesigning the game and still get something out in a reasonable time?
Gets me worried, that.
Comments
For example in NS1 there are some very clear moments when you know marines are going to push alien nodes. At that point I could think of dozens of spots to plant buildings to help the defence. However, it really requires that the commander and alien team know where, when and how those pushes are going to happen and have both the buildings and the players in position.
Once the building features are finalized the mappers can also intentionally create map layouts and architecture that encourage building placement.
as for umbra, this ability must be given back to the lerk. Its never used because its completely useless in a limited range, limited placement and hardly ever is where ever you need it to be. this ability must be a mobile one. It would also promote better teamwork among aliens to require lerks for support.
Whips are also poorly placed by some people - I've prevented hives going down with whips.
Shades I have found to be the most useless so far because when people cloak they oftentimes just watch marines take down cysts, extractors, hives, etc.... instead of intervening.
These structures/abilities are mostly defensive in nature and the alien side has turned out to be very offensive. Maybe that wasn't the initial intent, but the high-mobility nature means their defensive strategy is basically to be aggressive on offense and force marines to retreat to defend their base. Making these abilities passive or transferring some of them to the gorge would help.
whips must be rooted under the infestation, attack only when marines come within range and retract back under the infestation when marines move away. Scan would reveal them. this will somewhat make whips more useful but they still will be lacking. Whips require long range weapon, something they should have as passive ability not as an upgrade. Building whips seems to be only good when you need the upgrade another then that, its waste of res.
cast anywhere on the map.
that the commander casts using the building that supports it.
A current complaint is that the Alien Commander is not busy enough.
How would you like to hear "Umbra coming" during a fire/bite fight?
Building the building or performing the upgrade unlocks the spell.
Implement with a cooldown period for each spell.
Adjust cooldowns and power levels for balance.
whips must be rooted under the infestation, attack only when marines come within range and retract back under the infestation when marines move away. Scan would reveal them. this will somewhat make whips more useful but they still will be lacking. Whips require long range weapon, something they should have as passive ability not as an upgrade. Building whips seems to be only good when you need the upgrade another then that, its waste of res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As long as marines have no gl a whip wall (f.e. Behind the door at crossroads) is very effective blocking a path (instead of a pure wall ( I ) place it diagonal ( / ) around corners to prevent sniping)
The issue is that an effective whip wall is a waste of drifters/hive energy that could be used on other more important items (such as cyst placement or other structures such as crags, hives, or shades).
So yea fury needs some retooling.
-Usability issues with commander interface ( i.e taking 5 - 10 times longer then it should to perform simple tasks <b><u>like</u></b> activating umbra/fury or placing structures/cysts <-- Will be fixed with time of course
-Current difficulty level for marines to destroy alien structures
Best example i can think of is with the recent changes to the shotgun and grenade launcher. Tactics have changed where a lot of games now turn into marine trains with grenade launchers that easily take out any alien outpost. Reduction in grenade life has made it easier for players to plant grenades in crucial spots, and grenade splash damage goes through structures quite effectively (e.x ns2_summit : Hive taking grenade hits from reactor side in alien start but buildings and players on crevice side [opposite end] still take decent damage).
The trend being to build alien structures clustered together combined with powerful grenade damage and splash radius means alien outposts often get destroyed(immediately) befor the intended interactive battle can take place.
Another quick example is how difficult cyst placement is. Alien commanders are often forced to put cysts in plain sight, making it easy for marines to break cyst chains, which makes it difficult for commanders to construct alien outposts. <--- Will be fixed in time
I see offensive whips being effective when hidden, and crag healing stations are often (not always) placed behind the action.
I love the idea of gorges <i>+using</i> structures to activate an ability (alien commander could lock this feature out ?)
<b>Keep in mind Crag/shade/whip dont have all their features, Game play is primarily on ns2_summit, and these are experiences up to build 184.</b>
Like selecting a crag would give a circle similar to cyst placement in which you can "drop" the ability.
That way you actually could use it even if marines are on a range.
and if you build it so it can be sniped from across the map you either need to work on your placement or its just a spot thats ###### to defend for aliens.
I cant imagine this being to hard to implement this way, seeing how everything you would need for this already exists.
The problem i have with making it a cast ability for the com is that it either:
- takes away the need to build buildings on the frontline
- you would only need to build 1 to get the ability
- and if they actually would stack, so you actually have use for more then 1, this would make it possible for the alien comm to just spam them outright if needed.
cast anywhere on the map.
that the commander casts using the building that supports it.
A current complaint is that the Alien Commander is not busy enough.
How would you like to hear "Umbra coming" during a fire/bite fight?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 for Dark Swarm pushes !
Also, balance should go 70% in favor of marines for a few build so that the aliens learn something new.
DI only is barly an improvement to now.
You want it where the battles happen.
Give it back to lifeforms, and make cloak passive for static objects only. the whole chamber stuff(umbra to the alien upgrades...) was a lot better in ns1.
Then aliens can activate all the local structures it by 'using' it.
This gives attacking marines a chance to destroy the key cyst before aliens can activate it.
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Or, if structures are being attacked/in range of a Marine, they display a hovering button. So alien comm can activate the ability.
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I do use umbra quite a lot to protect buildings, but fury is a pain. Aliens often go on the attack just as I activate it, and they are no longer in range.
Umbra is the same.
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Perhaps aliens form relationships with structures - like the squad bubbles but they get bigger the longer you hang around a certain cluster.
So for every 15 seconds you hang around a structure, it adds a second before the relationship breaks.
So in theory, aliens could gather around a whip for 1min and then run at the base, then the comm could activate fury and umbra and they will still be effected even though they are out of range of the structures.
I also like the idea of ALL alien buildings being able to move, and use certain abilities while moving. A moving Crag release umbra might actually be useful. Reduce armor while uprooted...things like that.
Are we too far along to try a build or two with no alien commander and gorge dropped structures?
+1
<!--quoteo(post=1871825:date=Aug 29 2011, 05:28 AM:name=Smasher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smasher @ Aug 29 2011, 05:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1871825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, just to try it out for a build wouldn't hurt. If it doesn't feel right, one can just change it back. Worth a try imo.
+1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They are afraid we would like it too much and not want the alien comm back. ;P
It would seem the simplest solution to this structure flaw would be some kind of passive version of the effects instead (maybe upgrade to unlock them). Most likely the trigger would be to auto-cast if the structure had just been hit or had been alerted by a nearby marine (similar to a hydra perking up when an enemy is near). I play alien comm all the time, and almost never ever click a structure to activate the effects. Not sure why, it's just slightly unintuitive for some odd reason.