Fade balance changes in 185
Flayra
Game Director, Unknown Worlds EntertainmentSan Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
Game Director, Unknown Worlds EntertainmentSan Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
<div class="IPBDescription">I forgot to update the changelog on Friday</div>Here's the missing Fade changelog entry describing the changes to the Fade in Build 185:
Fade tuning to fit him more to character (harassment, surgical striker) while making him feel more responsive to use, and less of a tank.
- Bumped his acceleration while ethereal.
- Dropped health from 300 to 200.
- Decreased continuous blink energy cost and added an initial cost so he blinks a bit more intentionally.
- Altered damage and puncture damage type to make him very effective vs. marines and less against structures.
- Decreased swipe energy cost and increased swipe ROF to make sure he's never waiting around.
Please discuss. :)
Fade tuning to fit him more to character (harassment, surgical striker) while making him feel more responsive to use, and less of a tank.
- Bumped his acceleration while ethereal.
- Dropped health from 300 to 200.
- Decreased continuous blink energy cost and added an initial cost so he blinks a bit more intentionally.
- Altered damage and puncture damage type to make him very effective vs. marines and less against structures.
- Decreased swipe energy cost and increased swipe ROF to make sure he's never waiting around.
Please discuss. :)
Comments
Any word on getting Acid Rocket or some ranged attack in the future?
even with the lower fps, that i have in 185, i manage to kill a lot marines xD
Even NS1 was revolved around and keeping second hive.. and/or taking it down as marines.
I was hoping NS2 would get away from this aspect a bit, since it seems to promote binary gameplay (i.e. Do aliens have a 2nd hive? Yes = Win, No = Lose).
It's not that binary. if the marines play smart and survive long enough through a second hive, they gain res for weapons and upgrades long enough until tier 3 will be up (jp or exo) and counter fades.
i grant that that aliens most likely win on two hives now but i think it's because jet pack was more of a tier 2 in Ns1 that balanced fades. since it's not around at the moment, rines are too slow and vulnerable (no exo either) with strong endgame weapons so the instinct is to camp in.
Onos is strong in alien play to end games, but it's not as important as jp is to the marines..
my 2 cents anyway,
peace. :-)
This is correct, there is NO cost to enter blink, only the drain, you can still spam blink as much as you want.
I feel the fade is still very much overpowered because of this fact, if a cost to enter blink was added I feel he would be pretty much spot on, with blink spam it's impossible to kill a good fade without flames.
I feel that 3-4 marines should still be able to kill a fade WITHOUT flames, atm it's just frustrating while he's blink spamming all over the place.
True, but I see this as more of a problem in bigger maps or ones with tech nodes close to alien start. I think server room in tram is a good example, because its so far away from marine start, that its hard for the marines to take it down before it goes up. 2+ hives should give aliens an advantage, but right now its a significant advantage (e.g. fades, skulk leap, more egg spawn locations, more drifter/cyst energy, 2nd chamber (crag or shade), bilebomb, closer spawn location).
In my opinion the fade does still to much damage. For example: I had an commander, who spammed medpacks all over me, but the fade killed me with ease, because it does (with melee#3, I guess) more than 100 damage.
I think it is all right if the fade kills a marine in one hit wit the stab (2nd weapon), even if the marine has armor#3 (which it doesn't atm).
But, the main swipe should do less damage. If a fade needs just 2 swipes to kill you have barely a chance to even pont at it. I would prefer that the fade needs to do, similar to the skulk, 3 swipes if the melee# level matches the armor# level of the marines.
...come to speak of it...
If used to be that way (fade needs 3 swipes, but the swipes are faster) some builds back. I liked that. It feels to me, that changing the fade to a slower but more powerful attack braught a good chunk of the imbalance. Bringing the fade "back to its roots" and giving it back the faster less adrenaline consuming attack is a good beginning... and I think reducing the damage is the next step.
This would also encurage players to choose the lerk and gas all the marines who survived 2 fade swipes with like 1 HP....
PS:
I do like the current fade blink. It is totally all right that a fade can blink around and have only a little initial cost.
Especially if you decrease th damage,it <i>has to</i> blink around even more.
Also playing the Fade feels better now and you die fast if you don't pay attention on your health.
But the stab is useless know. Marines can just walk out of range, maybe its because I am familiar with the old range IDK.
The overall balance (ignoring the bugs/problems) is almost perfect!
Thx for this build.
It's only becoming more like a buffed skulk with each change, and giving it an arbitrary inability to damage structures isn't going to change that.
Either the fade or the skulk needs a significant role change, otherwise one of them is a waste.
Had a player (can't remember his name) show us the other night his 'spam blink flying' technique in Crevice.
He was able to actuallu fly around to the top of crevice.
It looked ridiculous.
I realize that these changes are probably necessary for the time being, but people saying they've killed 3 fades in one life is a little shocking to me, as the fade role in NS1 was to be the ruthless killer to the non-jetpack/exosuit marines, but of course that was never a huge problem since the marines would eventually get jetpacks and heavy armor. When we see Exosuits and Jetpacks, i'd like to see the fade be restored to what it was possibly in build 177 or 178, since for the time being they dominate tier 2, but just like skulks and lerks become obselete, fades will as well when Tier 3 is added.
Had a player (can't remember his name) show us the other night his 'spam blink flying' technique in Crevice.
He was able to actuallu fly around to the top of crevice.
It looked ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I want to see a video of that!
Great casting btw!
I feel the fade is still very much overpowered because of this fact, if a cost to enter blink was added I feel he would be pretty much spot on, with blink spam it's impossible to kill a good fade without flames.
I feel that 3-4 marines should still be able to kill a fade WITHOUT flames, atm it's just frustrating while he's blink spamming all over the place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its quite possible to take a fade down 1on1 if you have a shotgun and armor upgrade in this build. But yeah, the activation cost still needs to be fixed, fades can still spam the blink to insanity. 2 good players with shotgun, armor and medpacks can reliably take down fades 2on1, and having a third guy with a flamethrower is extremely powerful against all current alien lifeforms, not structures so much, then you would need a guy with grenade launcher or ARCs.
<!--quoteo(post=1871988:date=Aug 30 2011, 12:53 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Aug 30 2011, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1871988"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know whether it's balanced, but the whole reliance on blink and reducing health really isn't doing much for the fade's role as opposed to the skulk.
It's only becoming more like a buffed skulk with each change, and giving it an arbitrary inability to damage structures isn't going to change that.
Either the fade or the skulk needs a significant role change, otherwise one of them is a waste.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fade really got his role in this build, it is to take down marines, not structures. That's the skulks and gorges(in endgame, bilebomb) job.
The fades are REALLY slow at taking down buildings in this build, and I think its good to clarify the roles that way. Lerk spikes needs this pass too.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Altered damage and puncture damage type to make him very effective vs. marines and less against structures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please give lerk spikes puncture damage too! They are too good against buildings! Don't know if they already are puncture, but I feel that the lerk is too effective against buildings. He is a supporter class, not a siege class.
Grenade Launcher is also too powerful at taking down both lifeforms and buildings, the damage and AoE should be tweaked a bit.
Sorry about bringing this up in the fade balance thread, but it really needs a little attention.
And it feels right so. I think the bug that Frenzy does not work in 185 did the whole game more balanced!
Maybe UWE should turn it to Tier 3 or even get rid of it.
still needs to increase. While he's in this state, his movement should increase by a lot since this is his only real movement.
Decreased continuous blink energy cost and added an initial cost so he blinks a bit more intentionally.
fade energy still is being consumed far too quickly, and he cannot conserve his energy in any way. Blink should work in two forms to help conserve energy.
First form would be the way it is now. second form should allow the fade to tap blink, and allow his momentum to carry him - this should conserve his energy.
the fade movement is still isn't smooth at all. Without any skill based movement you end up blinking in straight lines.
now for his attacks; he needs to be able to attack buildings aside from the marines. Not being able to help skulks while the marines died isn't good. And his second attack should change, it should instantly attack but have delay in between so it cannot be spammed. Currently its useless, and hardly to never been used.
The fades are REALLY slow at taking down buildings in this build, and I think its good to clarify the roles that way. Lerk spikes needs this pass too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a stronger skulk with an arbitrarily different damage type.
That isn't a unique role, that's lazy design.