DON'T fix the stalemate
Topper
Mr. Parasite Himself Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8462Members
Mr. Parasite Himself Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8462Members
<div class="IPBDescription">It's a sign that the game is on track.</div>Ok, hear me out...
I know stalemates are long and tedious. I know it feels like the game is lacking something. And It is. And that is Tier 3.
<b>Tier 1</b> should be all about expansion - <i>grabbing Res, setting up a 2nd hive / forward base.</i>
<b>Tier 2</b> should be about consolidation -<i> fortifying your position, taking down weak opposition.</i>
<b>Tier 3</b> should be about victory -<i> taking out the enemy no matter where they are.</i>
At the moment we only have Tier 2, which SHOULD be having trouble taking out well defended starting positions.
Now, I'm not saying that Tier 1 or 2 shouldn't be able to win a game, not at all, just that stalemates are bound to happen, and to attempt to alleviate that would just make Tier 3 unnecessary.
Or at least that's just my take on it :)
I know stalemates are long and tedious. I know it feels like the game is lacking something. And It is. And that is Tier 3.
<b>Tier 1</b> should be all about expansion - <i>grabbing Res, setting up a 2nd hive / forward base.</i>
<b>Tier 2</b> should be about consolidation -<i> fortifying your position, taking down weak opposition.</i>
<b>Tier 3</b> should be about victory -<i> taking out the enemy no matter where they are.</i>
At the moment we only have Tier 2, which SHOULD be having trouble taking out well defended starting positions.
Now, I'm not saying that Tier 1 or 2 shouldn't be able to win a game, not at all, just that stalemates are bound to happen, and to attempt to alleviate that would just make Tier 3 unnecessary.
Or at least that's just my take on it :)
Comments
It effectively already is, because you can't defend it with T2 stuff.
I don't agree that only T3 should be able to take out a defended base, but the lack of anti-base equipment is definitely the reason it's as stalematey as it is.
The only way such situations are interesting is when one man can screw it up by simple mistake such as overextending or miscalling. In NS1 closest thing to stalemate would be holding phasegate which technically aint stalemate since you have move around to protect RTS and 10 delay in facing can cost the game. In NS2 you can have 5 people afking without real effect on the game.
The only way such situations are interesting is when one man can screw it up by simple mistake such as overextending or miscalling. In NS1 closest thing to stalemate would be holding phasegate which technically aint stalemate since you have move around to protect RTS and 10 delay in facing can cost the game. In NS2 you can have 5 people afking without real effect on the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But as you know one was a complete game, the other not.
This kinda concerns me too. t3 shouldn't be the only answer..
It isnt the only answer. Games for aliens are usually won or lost for the fight for second hive. Going by NS1 standards, Second hive was so important. Third hive was the end of the game for marines, but most game ended with a sustained second hive or dead one (alien win/marine win). T3 is just a goal for both team to progress to first to dominate.
Absolutely i agree - early to mid game is interesting in regard to 2nd hive. But turret spam for example seems too effective at prolonging games given mid game tech? What i was concerned about is there for example being no effective mid game alien counter to turret farms (dont say bilebomb because we know it isn't the case when marines are lobbing grenades). Maybe onos will eventually result in alien win, but it doesn't change the fact that mid game atm is more often than not an arbitrary ammount of boring time.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now, I'm not saying that Tier 1 or 2 shouldn't be able to win a game, not at all, just that stalemates are bound to happen, and to attempt to alleviate that would just make Tier 3 unnecessary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All this ***ting about how game is not balanced and stuff comes usually from ppl who never played vanila NS.
We just lack Onos and Exo suit. These are the meanings of a real enemy- base taking down.
It is like playing any RTS - you can win even on the first Tier, but it is usually comes from either a really good and surprising strategy, exploits or just playing against bad players. Same case. We've taken down alien bases couple of times just by going fast GL's and being really teamed up.
PS just remember what panic and rush was it when someone would scream "ONOS"! And how much of hailing it was when an Onos would be taken down (if).
All this ***ting about how game is not balanced and stuff comes usually from ppl who never played vanila NS.
We just lack Onos and Exo suit. These are the meanings of a real enemy- base taking down.
It is like playing any RTS - you can win even on the first Tier, but it is usually comes from either a really good and surprising strategy, exploits or just playing against bad players. Same case. We've taken down alien bases couple of times just by going fast GL's and being really teamed up.
PS just remember what panic and rush was it when someone would scream "ONOS"! And how much of hailing it was when an Onos would be taken down (if).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Totally agree.
And yeah i remember the ways jet-packers would chase after the retreating onos with a hmg firing all the way, with teammates mic spamming "dont f**king let him get away" "GET HIM GET HIM", Good times.
What we basically need is to give the winning team the option to use their advantage of having much more resources available to end a game. That indirectly means access to T3, if not fully implemented then at least partially (stronger life-forms with hive 3 abilities, more meaningful upgrades which are especially strong when combinating them, Jetpacks for marines to dump their res overflow)
The winner of each game should be decided in a timely fashion. Stalemates are not fun for anyone. I have to agree that Sentry spam is the main culprit, as the Alien team is unable to capitalize on their economic advantage and map control.
This is not at a level where Tier 3 is going to solve everything, there is an overwhelming alien dominance right now that is only stopped by sentry gun spam which indicates there is something fundamentally wrong happening in Tier 1-2 that needs to be addressed so that we can actually get to a real stalemate, where marines and aliens are both evenly matched but neither can win.
This isn't the equivalent of two players in a chess game with neither able to pull off a killing blow, it's more one player has lost everything but his king while the other player has lost only a few pieces but for some reason he can't manage checkmate.
Balance would be indicated by players fighting each other to a standstill in Tier 2, what it currently involves is aliens beating the marines savagely but being unable to seal the deal due to sentry guns.
This needs adjustment before Tier 3 will do anything but hand games to aliens.
This is currently not the case. Well, if marines hold 80% of the map, they can probably win. But for aliens, controling the map does not give them much of an advantage.
I think one of the solutions is to give less res for kills, and more res with the extractors. That way map control becomes more important. Currently having more extractors is nice, but not really crucial, specially if you have already 2-3 extractors.
EDIT:
Macs that repair should cost resources (if they don't already do). That way a one base/one extractor marine team will not be able to hold on forever, because they will be out of resources.
Macs that repair should cost resources (if they don't already do). That way a one base/one extractor marine team will not be able to hold on forever, because they will be out of resources.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How should that work with marines repairing structures? I guess they also will be able later to do that, but if not that would be a good solution. We anyway need more team res dumps. stuff that constantly requires team res. One reason of sentry spam is, that team res don't have any value anymore once you have done all upgrades (doesn't matter if you are contained in marine start or have 80% of the map) In NS1 we had weapon drops and beacon
I think marines should not repair buildings. They already repair powernodes and each other. Buildings are mostly in the base, which gives the MAC its reason to exist, to support the commander in base building/maintaining.
And for the other comment. I would reduce res to kill to fixed values depending on the alien class. What those values are, i don't know. Perhaps skulk 1, lerk + gorge 2, fade 3 and onos 4-5? Perhaps the amount of resources you get by the extractors does not even need to be changed, because currently you often see unused resource nodes, because you have enough res anyway.
that is not currently the case.
If the stalemate is not fixed then we will just have
oni, fades, jetpacks, and exo suit all in marine start with a gazillion sentries
and a stalemate.
yes I am be overly dramatic.
But the point that we should just reach Tier3 to finish it doesn't sound like an answer.
Sounds like I should just keep building trains of sentries and finish those wimpy aliens.
The Marines need those 3-4 sentrys, because otherwise they would run into a biting skulk once they walk through a phasegate. These stalemates just show the lack of an building killing abillity on alien side. In the build 185 i doesn´t see much stalemates because the Marines are stronger now, and with there grenlaunchers and ARC it is easy to kill an alien hive or outpost. But if the aliens manage to get mapcontrol and don´t let the marines gain to much res, they are on top, but can´t kill the marine base ( at least at summit, because there are just two small tunnels into the base). So such games with alien advantage turn into a stalemate at marine base. Even with just one or two towers it takes like 10 hours to kill marine base.
To the Res problem. I think Marines depend very strong on Res. They need them especially in the early and mid game very much Res. When the aliens kill the RTs very consequent, the marines will have much trouble to get the neccessary upgrades and weapons. On the other hand aliens can easily live with 2 RTs for the whole game. I think the alien pustles and drifters should cost Tres, that would help to balance this problem.
Perhaps the problem is that alien play very often on their own and don´t stick together. And the Gorge ist played to less and not offensive enough. The Fade should kill the marines, and then the gorge makes damage against buildings, but he needs support, because he is not a fighter since build 185 ;). But in summit it is very hard because the grens make much damage in the small entrances to the base.
But overall in my opinion it is balanced pretty good and the aliens need to change there playstyle to more teamwork on public servers.
Dominating tier 2 aliens should be able to win the game.
1. Turrets need to be limited in some way.
4 in an area like marine start and half way to ventilation/flight control, sounds quite reasonable. Turrets will have to be placed smart.
4 turrets covering each other, or 2 and 2 turrets covering each other, both solutions are powerful enough to hold off lone skulks from killing the IPs, but not enough to hold off the entire alien team if there are no marines in base.
I actually think the HBZ server is running a mod with this.
Havent tried it as commander myself though.
2. Make beacon cost 15 team res and this would also help solve this problem.
Also, observatories around the map(near hives) are really powerful compared to their cost.
They are being used instead of phase gates, the cost will make people stop doing that, and make it for emergensies only.