Solution to tech points argument?
Steinhauer
Join Date: 2010-07-17 Member: 72493Members
Join Date: 2010-07-17 Member: 72493Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Prototype lab uses tech point?</div>I've been reading some of the threads in the mapping section and people are debating how many tech points a map should have. Everyone seems to have good points, but I think the biggest problem is that Marines just have no use for tech points right now because they don't need a 2nd CC to unlock any tech. If prototype labs and MAYBE even <strike>robotics factories</strike> arms labs were required to be built on tech points, then it would re-introduce the concept of fighting over tech points that would probably help break the stalemates of the game in the end. After all, they're called "tech points" not "command points".
Essentially, it would bring back the fight over who gets to utilize the end-game tech. I'm curious to see what the devs and you guys in the community think about this.
Essentially, it would bring back the fight over who gets to utilize the end-game tech. I'm curious to see what the devs and you guys in the community think about this.
Comments
I'll support any idea that makes the fighting more intense
Well my point was that you're not making them build CCs, but you're still forcing them to fight over these vital "tech points" that maps are designed around, which retains a lot of the original strategy of the game without being a silly sort of limiting. A second CC is essentially useless now, there's little to no reason for having marines implement a second location to command from (though the option is good), and instead of forcing players to unlock things by building new ones (and redesigning the tech tree in the process) you only restrict them to building certain upgrade buildings on these vital tech points. The Prototype lab seems perfect for this since 1) it hasn't been implemented yet and 2) it's a super-awesome building with super-awesome futuristic technologies like jetpacks, exosuits, and eventually nukes, so it seems logical that this kind of functionality would require whatever it is that CCs and Hives require that keeps them confined to a tech point.
Right now Marines can deny vital tech to the aliens by a kind of intermittent map control - and it's a fun mechanic. Aliens can only deny marine tech by shutting down all the resources (ie almost complete map control) or assaulting the enemy base.
The marine turtle conundrum was really irking me. This has the potential to make the game much more interesting. It also provides marines the option to not expand, if they think they can win with shotguns and flamers.
Teeter totter balance.
I personal feel the tech points should just be giant power transformers. The marines have to build them to get power throughout a certain area. The aliens have to destroy them to take out the power within an area. It would make the fighting for them more intense because once you lock down a teach point, you have control over a few adjacent rooms. None of this power node for every single room, which seems to end up being redundant to a degree. It will be, in a way, like a marine hive because without it marines lose power in all the areas the transformer powers. This will also make power packs more critical because do keep a room up and running once a transformer goes down, you'll have to use a power pack until you can reclaim reclaim and rebuild the power transformer/tech point.
However, I would argue that the Robotics Facility <b>should not</b> require a tech point:
- The commander should get access to MACs before the tech tree requires Marines to leave their base.
- The spawn direction of robots give reason enough as to why placement of this structure should be carefully considered.
- Everything that is produced from the Robotics Factory is mobile anyway.
Teeter totter balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, this is where the decision to implement 5 or 6 tech points comes in. I'm not arguing for either 5 or 6, in fact I think maybe we should have some with 5 and some with 6, but my idea isn't exactly where that argument should take place. It only tries to ALLOW that argument to be even relevant, because right now it's not.
<!--quoteo(post=1875979:date=Sep 20 2011, 06:47 PM:name=DarkOmen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DarkOmen @ Sep 20 2011, 06:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1875979"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree entirely with the OP about how the Prototype Lab should need to be built on a tech point. Maybe the structure needs some sort of interface to the environment's computer system to function?
However, I would argue that the Robotics Facility <b>should not</b> require a tech point:
- The commander should get access to MACs before the tech tree requires Marines to leave their base.
- The spawn direction of robots give reason enough as to why placement of this structure should be carefully considered.
- Everything that is produced from the Robotics Factory is mobile anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah those are the same reasons I put a big "MAYBE" before "robotics facility". Looking at the Tech tree I think the Arms Lab would be a better choice for the first tech point expansion. The location of the arms lab makes no difference on how useful it is, so it could easily be confined to a tech point simply to encourage expansion. If you want weapon/armor upgrades, push out and earn them. Adds another dimension to the upgrade race as well I think. I'm much more certain about the prototype lab though. I'll edit the OP.
Possibly, though you could try to balance the game in other ways instead, and embrace the asymmetry of gameplay.
how so?
I dunno you tell me. So many people have balancing ideas, the problem is it's very difficult to balance the game before everything is in, so it might have to hold off for a while.
the marines must expand ASAP because they cannot get vital armor upgrades.
the aliens can go crag/shade/shift, it wont matter since the aliens get the whip regardless of tech choice. a simple 15 res for melee one and they get 2 hit kills. all they need to do now is harass the tech points and the marines will never get the armor they need.
I still think this is a good idea, just has some kinks in it.
also, if this idea gets implemented then 6 tech point maps are probably best. 5 tech point maps will lead to a huge tech advantage for one team.
on second thought, that could be fun. each team get two relatively safe tech points on their side. in between then is the hotly contested 3rd tech point.
the marines must expand ASAP because they cannot get vital armor upgrades.
the aliens can go crag/shade/shift, it wont matter since the aliens get the whip regardless of tech choice. a simple 15 res for melee one and they get 2 hit kills. all they need to do now is harass the tech points and the marines will never get the armor they need.
I still think this is a good idea, just has some kinks in it.
also, if this idea gets implemented then 6 tech point maps are probably best. 5 tech point maps will lead to a huge tech advantage for one team.
on second thought, that could be fun. each team get two relatively safe tech points on their side. in between then is the hotly contested 3rd tech point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Having 3 nodes will cause you to research at normal speed, and you gain/lose 25% research speed depending on how many nodes you have with respect to the 3. (5 nodes would give a 50% boost in research speed, while having only marine start node means you research at only 50% of the default time length being twice as long).
Or make certain research options become only available when your team has at least "x" amount of nodes. Maybe you can only start researching exo armor with 5 nodes?
Makes sense, if the aliens require a second tech point in order to gain access to higher life forms, so too should the marines in order to gain access to jetpacks and heavy armor.
Having 3 nodes will cause you to research at normal speed, and you gain/lose 25% research speed depending on how many nodes you have with respect to the 3. (5 nodes would give a 50% boost in research speed, while having only marine start node means you research at only 50% of the default time length being twice as long).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An interesting idea, though the problem is that things only have to be researched once, so the speed gain wouldn't help enough alone to warrant putting much investment into controlling a tech point. That's how I see it anyways
CCs should be useful 'out of the box', single IP (stops IP rush) and single access armoury point (no upgraded kit, accessed by one Marine at a time), upgraded with PG (only goes to other CCs).
It becomes a useful outpost straight away, not a point on the map that needs babysitting to setup and a load of res to make it a viable launch pad for taking the fight deeper into alien controlled map areas.
Just making taking the point an upgrade requirement means that you make two points to defend and limit the Marines ability to attack and force res spending onto more defence. Marines don't have the speed to spread their defence over multiple points without the stated res spending.
So I like the idea, but with out big changes to the Marine res mech, it will really hurt the Marines gameplay.
They already tried that idea and didn't like it apparently, granted there weren't as many features back then. Also it feels a bit more restrictive, and unjustifiable. What about having ANOTHER CC allows these guys to research X upgrade? Makes more sense if the building the upgrade comes from requires some kinda of extra power or something from a tech point to operate, to me anyways. You get a very similar effect as your idea but it feels less restrictive and makes a little more sense.
In NS original each class for the Aliens had 4 skills to gain though at the beginning of a match they had two, because they only had one hive.
So Aliens would have to get 2 more hives to have all their upgrades and evolves available to effectively win the game.
Seeing that UWE has crossed over the marine commander from NS1 to both teams having commanders in NS2,
shouldn't they cross over the Aliens Tech tree from NS1 over to both teams in NS2?
Why not make both teams based around 1st, 2nd and 3rd Tech upgrades?
If one team tries to tech up to 2nd Tier the opposing team can either try to destroy the CC / Hive or try advance to their 2nd Tier to match that move.
there are a few structures that define a way in the tech tree: for aliens: 3 types of chambers
for marines you also have 3: robotics, prototype lab, arms lab.
maybe it would be smarter to add the whip and the obs as well to this list. but im not sure about that yet. if i remove all whip upgrades, but instead put all damage + defense upgrades there, you have an equivalent to the arms lab (would be just fair). but maybe it would be wrong to directly compare alien and marine tech tree, and instead define "steps". such a step is not really a tier, but in combination they open powerful possiblities: prototype lab + arms lab, robotics + arms lab or proto + robotics (= T2). well, and all 3 of the is T3. for aliens nothing would change, except i would untie life forms from hives and make them instead more powerful through abilities (which are tied to hives, like it was in ns1)
once i have some time i would like to implement that (or a variation) in my mod to see if it works.
edit: it was actually pretty easy to make that, just needed to change a few values and untie the command station from the tech point.
familiar but different:
<img src="http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/1038/2011092500001d.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
there are a few structures that define a way in the tech tree: for aliens: 3 types of chambers
for marines you also have 3: robotics, prototype lab, arms lab.
maybe it would be smarter to add the whip and the obs as well to this list. but im not sure about that yet. if i remove all whip upgrades, but instead put all damage + defense upgrades there, you have an equivalent to the arms lab (would be just fair). but maybe it would be wrong to directly compare alien and marine tech tree, and instead define "steps". such a step is not really a tier, but in combination they open powerful possiblities: prototype lab + arms lab, robotics + arms lab or proto + robotics (= T2). well, and all 3 of the is T3. for aliens nothing would change, except i would untie life forms from hives and make them instead more powerful through abilities (which are tied to hives, like it was in ns1)
once i have some time i would like to implement that (or a variation) in my mod to see if it works.
edit: it was actually pretty easy to make that, just needed to change a few values and untie the command station from the tech point.
familiar but different:
<img src="http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/1038/2011092500001d.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I...really like the way that looks! The only thing I'm worried about is that with com chairs no longer bound to mapmaker-defined locations, teams will be able to place them in much better protected locations than their hive counterparts (Such as the "always-powered" hallway between MS and DC in Summit, or in the little detour away from Reception in the middle of Crevice on the same map which has only one approach).
and, relocating costs time, money and is risky. if you manage to do it, you are rewarded :)
and since we have now more tech points on a map (5 on small map summit), at least the "lock down" strategy wouldn't work that well, like it was in ns1