Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1893454:date=Jan 11 2012, 02:07 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jan 11 2012, 02:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893454"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Compare the popular NS1 maps to the unpopular NS1 maps (ns_veil to ns_machina, ns_tanith to ns_altair, ns_origin to ns_agora); what do you see? It should be pretty obvious that making your map dark, and generally focusing on aesthetics over gameplay considerations, is a bad idea if you want people to actually play it in the long run.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have to agree, I believe at one stage the most commonly played version of NS was siege, all based around siege maps, of which Sgt Barlows siege generator was the exception, rather than the rule. All those maps were generally just big boxes piled high, but they had the most replay ability because of the general madness that ensued.
As I said earlier, I guess people are making maps towards the developers ideas, which seems to point to a more atmospheric look, but everyone will make maps to their own tastes.
The beauty of re-interpreting something is that it is your version of the orignal, and the author has said, if people don't like it, they can make changes and create their own version of it. I am just looking forward to seeing and playing another new NS2 map, regardless of it's heritage :)
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
you seem to forget that veil, tanith and origin were much earlier introduced then machina, altair and agora, players tend to stick to maps that they know instead of learning a new one after a set amount of time invested into the game/maps. But yeah, atmospheric maps do tend to have a lower playerbase, people should be slapped for that fact :P
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1893479:date=Jan 11 2012, 07:41 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 11 2012, 07:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893479"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But yeah, atmospheric maps do tend to have a lower playerbase, people should be slapped for that fact :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you serious? Why? I'm personally don't give much value to atmosphere and aestethics in game. Sure they are the thing that might lure me to try a game but they don't make me to play it more than an hour or two. I feel that the atmosphere and aetethics don't give me anything in a long run. They just make it harder to enjoy the game fully. I think mappers who focus on aestethics and atmosphere instead of gameplay should be slapped. But as you said they kinda get already because no one plays those maps because it's not fun.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
Well, I don't think there will ever be a game better than Super Smash 64, in terms of a game itself. Or, chess, for that matter. But there is no denying games are getting closer to real life, at least in terms of presentation. I think it's important to keep the pace with that, and it does add something to the experience.
Speaking of a video, will you let NS2HD make a tour through the map as he did with Tram once? That would be quite nice.
Also, I have some problems understanding why people demand brightness above all else when UWE themselves decided that darkness is an element of their game. Although being different from ns1 it seems to work quite well both in terms of gameplay (based on what I've played on summit, tram and rockdown) and immersion. Also the brightness in fmpones screens is affected by his gamma- and brightness settings in the driver, the most important thing here is that veils brightness is comparable to other ns2 maps as players will be changing those values themselves for the entire game anyway.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People are free to edit and change my map to suit their preferences, by the way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great! What about creative common or free art license to make it clear ?
Personally I find 3D games to be aesthetically rather unpleasant, my favorite games in term of graphics would be Machinarium, Limbo, stuff like that.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
There is a paradox in design like this in that most importantly, you create a void. What people are going to use is empty space, and the way they use it is shaped by the space itself. The colors and patterns on the box might give you different feelings, but in the end a box is a box. As much as you like to create nice ornaments, it is from the void imagination comes.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1893498:date=Jan 11 2012, 07:34 AM:name=Zeikko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeikko @ Jan 11 2012, 07:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893498"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you serious? Why? I'm personally don't give much value to atmosphere and aestethics in game. Sure they are the thing that might lure me to try a game but they don't make me to play it more than an hour or two. I feel that the atmosphere and aetethics don't give me anything in a long run. They just make it harder to enjoy the game fully. I think mappers who focus on aestethics and atmosphere instead of gameplay should be slapped. But as you said they kinda get already because no one plays those maps because it's not fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh wow :|
Stop reading into things that aren't there please. What, should I post a sarcasm tag or tongue in cheek smiley each and every time I post something to poke fun at some group, I just find it amusing that competitive players are afraid of a bit of environmental struggle in a game called Natural Selection. Sure things should absolutely not snag you and movement needs to be smooth, but that doesn't mean it has to look like someone places 1000watts lights everywhere.
As a side note, it is quite possible to get a darkness feel to areas without them being too dark. Last time I had a look at ns2_veil (yesterday :o), it seemed to have a bit too many close to black/full shadow walls. I'd like to see a bit more power to be used for those lights so to speak...
[edit] Just a minute here, I did post a tongue in cheek smiley (text format but it's still there), you sir should be slapped :P <--
<!--quoteo(post=1893517:date=Jan 11 2012, 12:18 PM:name=cron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cron @ Jan 11 2012, 12:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893517"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, I have some problems understanding why people demand brightness above all else when UWE themselves decided that darkness is an element of their game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No they're not. They want other atmospherics such as hive fog and infestation to create atmosphere, not darkness. The only darkness they want you to perceive is of a contested area, with power node failure. This is why the maps start light and not dark in non-powered areas.
<!--quoteo(post=1893538:date=Jan 11 2012, 01:02 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 11 2012, 01:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893538"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just find it amusing that competitive players are afraid of a bit of environmental struggle in a game called Natural Selection.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes afraid. Not annoyed by gameplay-breaking useless ###### all over the map and not eye-sore at all of having to stare into the monitor because you can see ###### all half the time. Can you at least understand that if you play the game for an extended amount of time stuff like very badly lit maps become an increasing aggravation, and the whole 'cool atmosphere'-thing gets old REAL FAST.
<a href="http://www.hidden-source.com/" target="_blank">http://www.hidden-source.com/</a> An example of how to make a multiplayer game with dark maps so no one plays.
Okay then, they learned. When Hidden was first released the maps were dark, pitch black dark in many areas. Looks like they brightened it up.. that may be a sign of development.
<!--quoteo(post=1893440:date=Jan 11 2012, 02:05 AM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Jan 11 2012, 02:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893440"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People are free to edit and change my map to suit their preferences, by the way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I appreciate this. Technically there's nothing the mappers can do to prevent editing but when the modders have author's blessing everything works better.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1893545:date=Jan 11 2012, 01:23 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jan 11 2012, 01:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes afraid. Not annoyed by gameplay-breaking useless ###### all over the map and not eye-sore at all of having to stare into the monitor because you can see ###### all half the time. Can you at least understand that if you play the game for an extended amount of time stuff like very badly lit maps become an increasing aggravation, and the whole 'cool atmosphere'-thing gets old REAL FAST.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You know, if that is the only part of the post you read then I can see why you've drawn that conclusion :| However there is more in my post that would suggest I addressed your concerns and veil seems (as I said) a bit on <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_side_%28Star_Wars%29" target="_blank">the dark side</a>
Who reads posts anyway, much easier to just not I say!
I saw you trying to nuance it a bit in the next sentence, but I feel my point stands anyway. You give an inch of freedom and before you know it the map is full of crates\railings\pipes\containers, so I must react with vigor!
What is a shame is that no one contacted KFS to ask him if he had the plans for his 3rd installment in the series, which never got to release, to see if they engineer that in to a NS2 map. That way you wouldn't be reinventing the past but improving the series.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
We are in need of more and better "clipbrushes" and a setting to disable clipping on small props/clutter :) That way you can have the cool looking stuff, but have it excluded from snagging. TF2 valve should take note, I've seen many a map with snagging walls and stuff, but yeah TF2 is a comic game mostly :P
[ninja edit] <!--quoteo(post=1893568:date=Jan 11 2012, 04:57 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Jan 11 2012, 04:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893568"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What is a shame is that no one contacted KFS to ask him if he had the plans for his 3rd installment in the series, which never got to release, to see if they engineer that in to a NS2 map. That way you wouldn't be reinventing the past but improving the series.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AFAIK it was stated "somewhere" that he was contacted and said something along the lines of being fine with a remake, from which I'd conclude, a new version from his end was not on the agenda :)
<!--quoteo(post=1893569:date=Jan 11 2012, 05:57 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 11 2012, 05:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->AFAIK it was stated "somewhere" that he was contacted and said something along the lines of being fine with a remake, from which I'd conclude, a new version from his end was not on the agenda :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> He's talking about the third map in the series. KFS stated a long time ago that there was going to be a third map, so this was a "trilogy" of maps, but then he got hired to make Q4 (IIRC).
He had a 3rd map in the series planned. It would have been nice if someone brought those plans for the 3rd map to NS2 instead of a remake of an existing NS1 map, so it completed the series.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1893546:date=Jan 11 2012, 02:26 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Jan 11 2012, 02:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893546"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://www.hidden-source.com/" target="_blank">http://www.hidden-source.com/</a> An example of how to make a multiplayer game with dark maps so no one plays.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Damn, we're in trouble with my maps then. I used to play Hidden:Source for about the first 3 years of the game, and never had any problems with the lighting levels. I thought they were just fine :)
I suppose there is a chance that it could just be differing monitors etc, which make for different views of the game. I just don't find NS2 too dark, except when the power goes out, and starts flashing between red and off. Maybe it's different types of monitor, maybe it's different monitor settings, or driver colour profiles, but then again I have eyes that are sensitive to light, so maybe thats why I don't have too much trouble. Black is very rarely anywhere near black on a TFT screen :)
Is this acceptable lighting level for a multiplayer map? From AvP? 'cause I don't think it is, and it's lighter than the latest pipeline pictures. I'm asking just to gauge what everyone thinks as a whole, as AvP was touted for being one of the worst modern MP experiences because of environment design.
Well, you could create a rule-of-thumb, say, you shouldn't have to use your flashlight any more than 5% of the time spent playing the map, above that it's become too dark. The usage of flashlights is novel at first, but becomes a chore after some playtime, and thus should be avoided as much as possible.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1893614:date=Jan 11 2012, 10:07 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Jan 11 2012, 10:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893614"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is this acceptable lighting level for a multiplayer map? From AvP? 'cause I don't think it is, and it's lighter than the latest pipeline pictures. I'm asking just to gauge what everyone thinks as a whole, as AvP was touted for being one of the worst modern MP experiences because of environment design.
Also, there is some bad language in that. So it's NSFW so to speak, play with sound muted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It depends on the target audience for the map. Although I've already posted empirical evidence that bright maps are more popular, at least in the long run, but that doesn't mean that there's no room for dark, atmospheric maps. My issue isn't actually that he's making a dark map -- that's fine and dandy. Even if I don't enjoy those maps, a lot of people do, and it makes perfect sense to have maps that cater to that audience as well. My issue is that <b>it seems like</b> he's basically perverting a classic map from the original game and turning it into something else. I have no objections to changing the map in order to make it suitable for NS2 or simply to make it prettier either -- my objection is to the apparent deviation from what I see as the core aspects of the original map.
zombiehellmonkeyJoin Date: 2007-08-31Member: 62093Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
It's hard to say what is too bright or too dark - for any one who has ever owned a cheap monitor, any form of dark is too much. I once owned a cheap screen and discovered that everything I made on it was too bright - the only way to tell is to use a high quality flatscreen. That is why the alpha levels exist as a start screen option.
I feel that if a room is dark, then it should be lit in the areas that matter for a gameplay scenario in that room. Some main routes that are well traversed should be well-lit. I've kept one tech room particularly dark because i have 6 techs, and I felt the extra tech should be more difficult to hold to avoid both teams just taking 3 techs each and stalling to horde res. Once again, it is a matter of the mapper thinking like a player rather than just as a designer.
Im not a fan of poorly lit games in general, its fine to have atmospheric and dark areas or at points when power goes down but 90% of the time i actually like to see what im doing and appreciate the graphics, this is why alien start on summit is so nice, it's bright and colourful, really shows off what the engine is capable of, we need more areas like that not less.
Sadly the theme set the devs decided to start off with has set the entire mood of the game and mappers don't have much choice but to use what's available, still it doesn't hurt to have brighter softer lighting over larger areas to make up for the dark texture set.
<!--quoteo(post=1893793:date=Jan 12 2012, 12:15 PM:name=subshadow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (subshadow @ Jan 12 2012, 12:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893793"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMO we hsould take this discussion to another thread. But keep up the good work FMpone!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
May be but as fmpone says our feedback isn't valued as he's already addressed all our points before we create them, it won't hurt to use this thread for something constructive which applies to the map as well as a "look at me" screenshot thread.
Comments
Have to agree, I believe at one stage the most commonly played version of NS was siege, all based around siege maps, of which Sgt Barlows siege generator was the exception, rather than the rule. All those maps were generally just big boxes piled high, but they had the most replay ability because of the general madness that ensued.
As I said earlier, I guess people are making maps towards the developers ideas, which seems to point to a more atmospheric look, but everyone will make maps to their own tastes.
The beauty of re-interpreting something is that it is your version of the orignal, and the author has said, if people don't like it, they can make changes and create their own version of it. I am just looking forward to seeing and playing another new NS2 map, regardless of it's heritage :)
Are you serious? Why?
I'm personally don't give much value to atmosphere and aestethics in game. Sure they are the thing that might lure me to try a game but they don't make me to play it more than an hour or two.
I feel that the atmosphere and aetethics don't give me anything in a long run. They just make it harder to enjoy the game fully. I think mappers who focus on aestethics and atmosphere instead of gameplay should be slapped. But as you said they kinda get already because no one plays those maps because it's not fun.
Also, I have some problems understanding why people demand brightness above all else when UWE themselves decided that darkness is an element of their game. Although being different from ns1 it seems to work quite well both in terms of gameplay (based on what I've played on summit, tram and rockdown) and immersion. Also the brightness in fmpones screens is affected by his gamma- and brightness settings in the driver, the most important thing here is that veils brightness is comparable to other ns2 maps as players will be changing those values themselves for the entire game anyway.
Great! What about creative common or free art license to make it clear ?
Personally I find 3D games to be aesthetically rather unpleasant, my favorite games in term of graphics would be Machinarium, Limbo, stuff like that.
I'm personally don't give much value to atmosphere and aestethics in game. Sure they are the thing that might lure me to try a game but they don't make me to play it more than an hour or two.
I feel that the atmosphere and aetethics don't give me anything in a long run. They just make it harder to enjoy the game fully. I think mappers who focus on aestethics and atmosphere instead of gameplay should be slapped. But as you said they kinda get already because no one plays those maps because it's not fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh wow :|
Stop reading into things that aren't there please. What, should I post a sarcasm tag or tongue in cheek smiley each and every time I post something to poke fun at some group, I just find it amusing that competitive players are afraid of a bit of environmental struggle in a game called Natural Selection. Sure things should absolutely not snag you and movement needs to be smooth, but that doesn't mean it has to look like someone places 1000watts lights everywhere.
As a side note, it is quite possible to get a darkness feel to areas without them being too dark. Last time I had a look at ns2_veil (yesterday :o), it seemed to have a bit too many close to black/full shadow walls. I'd like to see a bit more power to be used for those lights so to speak...
[edit]
Just a minute here, I did post a tongue in cheek smiley (text format but it's still there), you sir should be slapped :P <--
No they're not. They want other atmospherics such as hive fog and infestation to create atmosphere, not darkness. The only darkness they want you to perceive is of a contested area, with power node failure. This is why the maps start light and not dark in non-powered areas.
Yes afraid. Not annoyed by gameplay-breaking useless ###### all over the map and not eye-sore at all of having to stare into the monitor because you can see ###### all half the time. Can you at least understand that if you play the game for an extended amount of time stuff like very badly lit maps become an increasing aggravation, and the whole 'cool atmosphere'-thing gets old REAL FAST.
Okay then, they learned. When Hidden was first released the maps were dark, pitch black dark in many areas. Looks like they brightened it up.. that may be a sign of development.
I appreciate this. Technically there's nothing the mappers can do to prevent editing but when the modders have author's blessing everything works better.
You know, if that is the only part of the post you read then I can see why you've drawn that conclusion :| However there is more in my post that would suggest I addressed your concerns and veil seems (as I said) a bit on <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_side_%28Star_Wars%29" target="_blank">the dark side</a>
I saw you trying to nuance it a bit in the next sentence, but I feel my point stands anyway. You give an inch of freedom and before you know it the map is full of crates\railings\pipes\containers, so I must react with vigor!
[ninja edit]
<!--quoteo(post=1893568:date=Jan 11 2012, 04:57 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Jan 11 2012, 04:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893568"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What is a shame is that no one contacted KFS to ask him if he had the plans for his 3rd installment in the series, which never got to release, to see if they engineer that in to a NS2 map. That way you wouldn't be reinventing the past but improving the series.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AFAIK it was stated "somewhere" that he was contacted and said something along the lines of being fine with a remake, from which I'd conclude, a new version from his end was not on the agenda :)
He's talking about the third map in the series. KFS stated a long time ago that there was going to be a third map, so this was a "trilogy" of maps, but then he got hired to make Q4 (IIRC).
He had a 3rd map in the series planned. It would have been nice if someone brought those plans for the 3rd map to NS2 instead of a remake of an existing NS1 map, so it completed the series.
Damn, we're in trouble with my maps then. I used to play Hidden:Source for about the first 3 years of the game, and never had any problems with the lighting levels. I thought they were just fine :)
I suppose there is a chance that it could just be differing monitors etc, which make for different views of the game. I just don't find NS2 too dark, except when the power goes out, and starts flashing between red and off. Maybe it's different types of monitor, maybe it's different monitor settings, or driver colour profiles, but then again I have eyes that are sensitive to light, so maybe thats why I don't have too much trouble. Black is very rarely anywhere near black on a TFT screen :)
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8N77lAD23iY"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8N77lAD23iY" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Also, there is some bad language in that. So it's NSFW so to speak, play with sound muted.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8N77lAD23iY"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8N77lAD23iY" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Also, there is some bad language in that. So it's NSFW so to speak, play with sound muted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It depends on the target audience for the map. Although I've already posted empirical evidence that bright maps are more popular, at least in the long run, but that doesn't mean that there's no room for dark, atmospheric maps. My issue isn't actually that he's making a dark map -- that's fine and dandy. Even if I don't enjoy those maps, a lot of people do, and it makes perfect sense to have maps that cater to that audience as well. My issue is that <b>it seems like</b> he's basically perverting a classic map from the original game and turning it into something else. I have no objections to changing the map in order to make it suitable for NS2 or simply to make it prettier either -- my objection is to the apparent deviation from what I see as the core aspects of the original map.
I feel that if a room is dark, then it should be lit in the areas that matter for a gameplay scenario in that room. Some main routes that are well traversed should be well-lit. I've kept one tech room particularly dark because i have 6 techs, and I felt the extra tech should be more difficult to hold to avoid both teams just taking 3 techs each and stalling to horde res. Once again, it is a matter of the mapper thinking like a player rather than just as a designer.
But keep up the good work FMpone!
I'd say elevator shaft is more like .5 of a check.
Sadly the theme set the devs decided to start off with has set the entire mood of the game and mappers don't have much choice but to use what's available, still it doesn't hurt to have brighter softer lighting over larger areas to make up for the dark texture set.
But keep up the good work FMpone!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
May be but as fmpone says our feedback isn't valued as he's already addressed all our points before we create them, it won't hurt to use this thread for something constructive which applies to the map as well as a "look at me" screenshot thread.