Lack of dynamic hitboxes?
Corpsey
Join Date: 2011-07-02 Member: 107538Members
Join Date: 2011-07-02 Member: 107538Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Headshot!</div>What is the reasoning behind the lack of hitboxes? I think it would be hard to balance properly, especially for a game like NS, but to really make a game feel like there's some skill involved is being able to make skill shots.... I think this is something that really bothered me about NS1, both on marines and aliens I would register headshots, even if the hitbox was missing half the time, for the soul purpose that inside I could know that "I was shooting the alien in the head" or "I was chewing the marine's head" and yet because there was no hitbox I never benefited from being able to do that. I would go play counter-strike after and headshot an entire room of people because of the training I got from NS1.. I was even better at bhopping and such but it didn't make me want to go back and play NS1 because as alien there was no "grapple and bite head off" attack for the skulk.. and you couldn't "get a headshot", so being a skulk started slowly becoming the worst experience. That's for someone that knew the HL1 engine well too though.. a lot of other disappointment was from people new to HL1 that played NS and would just run in as a skulk and die without getting a single hit. I think headshots kind of balance this because for every noob that can't get skill kills, there's pros and average players that can get and hold at least a 1/1 K/D ratio, if not less but with a high score from taking down enemies strategic strongpoints.
Comments
Well lore-wise, Kharaa have armored heads. Heck, the ONOS has a massive bone-shield on his that stops anything short of an anti-materiel round.
Gameplay wise, it's kind of mean to punish Kharaa, who often charge head-first at their marine targets, and compensate it with a slight marine buff, since very few alien attacks actually land on Marine heads on a semi-frequent basis. Additionally, as I understand it, the "skill" focus in NS2 is more on knowing where to be, when to be there, who to take with you, and how to aim when you get there. PvP combat is important, but a lot of it is decided before it begins with things like number-imbalances and ambush situations.
:P
Gameplay wise, it's kind of mean to punish Kharaa, who often charge head-first at their marine targets, and compensate it with a slight marine buff, since very few alien attacks actually land on Marine heads on a semi-frequent basis. Additionally, as I understand it, the "skill" focus in NS2 is more on knowing where to be, when to be there, who to take with you, and how to aim when you get there. PvP combat is important, but a lot of it is decided before it begins with things like number-imbalances and ambush situations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is though is that they're already modifying health values from NS1.. the fade for example, and the skulk doesn't have carapace yet and it has additional armor with armor upgrades. I think if they add a skill system it would have to be soon or never, because it would have to start being tested with play testers. I don't think I'll be playing NS2 much without a dynamic hitbox system because I'll by frustrated with players that aren't in the right spot at the right time doing the proper thing..... like you said a lot of how the game plays out deals with these "events" and if there's no pointer to tell noobs where to go, a lot of noobs go and roam the map in places that there's nothing.. wasting 5 minutes which doesn't sound like a lot but in NS2 the game is just too fast paced to be slacking like that. The sad part is though that then games will really be stacked if there's many pros on one team, but the other side of that is that games will end quicker so a new match can begin with new teams, perhaps more balanced.
Maybe somebody will make a mod with headshots - so you can enjoy ns2 too, but im nearly 100% sure we wont see this in classic ns2.
PS: Pssst... yeah... yeah, you over there.... come closer.... you want a spacebar? huh? - really cheap - good quality... ill make you a special price! :P
I don't see how any of this is illogical. Having no head hitbox is illogical... It's like saying if I smashed your face with a baseball bat it would be the same if I smashed your toe with a baseball bat.
Kharaa charge head first at enemies
Frontiersman spend most of the game getting eaten, poisoned, or stabbed in the back (and just occasionally shot at by spikes or bitten in the head)
It's not fair to give Frontiersman bonus damage on all their weapons because of the Kharaa playstyle, nor would it be fair to buff the alien retreats by decreasing their weapon strengths enough that the bonus would only raise attack damage back to current levels.
well i'm sure it wouldnt that extreme in NS2, but consider yourselves warned :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is all I have to say...
Also, Kharaa don't have to charge at players head-on...... in fact, it's quite stupid to do so if you're not attempting any sort of evasive movement with an agile player. That's when it comes down to skill aswell, with movement.
A lot of this reminds me of dungeons and dragons, I don't know how many people have ever played but in D&D there's 2 types of values.. values belonging to players that change with experience, and values of dice rolls which vary, but can be determined quite easily by physics, and not "luck" as some would believe. How you hold the dice, how hard you roll the dice, depends on the players outcome.. keep in mind that people always have sight of the dice their rolling, even when they're put into a dice cup. Anyways.. getting back relating this to the topic at hand, skulks would have agility feats, but how the skulk uses his dexterity and wisdom is up to the skulk. His dexterity and dice rolls are a value generated by the experience he has gained.
So in my case, I've played zombie shooters so I know how to deal with players that are only able to attack in CQB.. it gives me a wisdom bonus to my flanking positions. Noobs on the other hand wouldn't have this because perhaps they haven't experienced it yet. Also, for skulk play I know how to flank because I've played NS1.. and if I ever need to attack coming at a player head on, I'll usually b-hop and attempt to zig-zag instead of just running straight.. this is another wisdom bonus that has affected my agility. Noobs wouldn't attempt something like that.. HOWEVER I also know how to aim for a head.. so if I had the option I would get headshots.. which is the equivalent of a critical hit in D&D. And while in D&D you might think that it is luck.. there are skills the players can obtain that boost dice ratings - and those skills are acquired <b>through experience</b>. Much like real life. I think it would add a level of challenge for players that are actually aware of vital places to attack enemies.......
Anyways a lot of CQB is attacking numbers also, so if I have you guys calling me illogical and I'm the only logical one.. you just wont see how illogical you are because you think too highly of yourself. Step back and see what you're saying......
Koruyo:
PS: Pssst... yeah... yeah, you over there.... come closer.... you want a spacebar? huh? - really cheap - good quality... ill make you a special price! :P
Hmm yeah that's logical.
Again, someone earlier has mentioned the lore, and with that.. the aliens ARE armored.. I'm not saying the criticals should do immense damage, just be more dynamic than "hit or not"
Since marine have no armor on their fingers, if a skulk bites a marine in the hand, the marine will no longer be able to hold a gun :-)
Koruyo:
PS: Pssst... yeah... yeah, you over there.... come closer.... you want a spacebar? huh? - really cheap - good quality... ill make you a special price! :P
Hmm yeah that's logical.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think he may have been referring to the fact that you responded to a post which said that the skill in NS comes a lot from the teamplay, by saying that a dynamic hitbox system would stop noobs from wandering around the map aimlessly... which just... makes no sense?
Also, need to look at NS as its own teambased game, not as being more like CS or another faster shooter where a player can single handedly win the game if they're skillful and have a good/lucky round.
I'm fairly sure the devs intention is to keep that out of the game and focus on the teamwork. Giving a single marine the ability to bring down a fade with lvl1 LMG headshots 1on1, or a fade the ability to one-shot everyone in the head regardless of armour upgrades, will break that balance.
Also, need to look at NS as its own teambased game, not as being more like CS or another faster shooter where a player can single handedly win the game if they're skillful and have a good/lucky round.
I'm fairly sure the devs intention is to keep that out of the game and focus on the teamwork. Giving a single marine the ability to bring down a fade with lvl1 LMG headshots 1on1, or a fade the ability to one-shot everyone in the head regardless of armour upgrades, will break that balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem though is that there's nothing currently and I don't think there ever will be something that will prevent noobs from going off and doing "NOTHING to help the team" on the other side of the map... that's a totally different issue though but it's mostly the Kharaa team that is plagued by this because I keep saying, the aliens need numbers. The dynamics would simply be to add some variety to how aliens and marines take damage.. and I think if you are able to leap and bite someone's head off you should be granted a bonus.. because the game just seems kind of silly without this.... There's no skill involved with the shooting if you're familiar with other FPS games.. to counter the extra damage the creatures can have more armor.. which would also help the aliens resolve the game faster when marines are turtling.. So servers would have more games instead of games that are drawn out because marines aren't playing together well enough. Then a new round will start with new teams.. what more could you possibly want? A stalemate with the same players? Boring.. I wouldn't play.
I'm not suggesting that headshots should come up.. or headshots should be regarded as the only place to aim.. because sometimes it's beneficial to aim at the bulk of a creature, especially if they're meaty.. I'm just saying it would add some dynamics for people that are able to target vital organs and such.
So instead of communicating and teamwork(you dont believe how much you can do with talking - even with ppl that are new to this game), you want headshots - because your skillZ are soooo incredible that you can solo the game and ignore all the noobZ.
^^
PS: i think im starting to troll :X
I was quoting you to mirror your text and concur with your sentiment. The spelling correction was just janitorial work on my part; It's a bit too early in the morning for me to be near an auto-correct list...
That'll stop the stupid jumping!
So instead of communicating and teamwork(you dont believe how much you can do with talking - even with ppl that are complealty new to this game), you want headshots - because your skillZ are soooo incredible that you can solo the game and ignore all the noobZ.
^^<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've tried joining a group, and in fact I've posted in the 6v6 cup as needing a clan and no one sent me a steam friend request or PM'd me or anything so it's not like I haven't tried to get in with a group of people..
Anwyays, having dynamic hitboxes in no way would detract from the team play, if it were balanced, and that's why I said 2 hours ago it would have to start being playtested soon or it will never make it into the game.. it probably wont but then I also probably wont be playing NS2... well I hope UWE makes another game though, I liked NS1. I was really hoping NS2 would have more dynamics.. Hive placement, CS placement, Hitboxes.. everything NS1 was lacking.
That'll stop the stupid jumping!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 for skulks gaining the ability to sit under falling marines and swallow them whole.
But you have to contact them, be active, show up at trainings etc. - nobody will run after you.
But you have to contact them, be active, show up at trainings etc. - nobody will run after you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This thread is not about needing or wanted a clan, if I need or want a clan I'll go join a clan.. I don't want to join a clan, I don't want to organize a clan.
I don't know where you're getting that idea from - I'm just saying that there should be some skillful play involved in the game, and that can happen if the hitboxes are more dynamic..
Are you afraid to be shot in the face, and have people that are more skilled than you start playing? Are you afraid of a challenge?
Also, any game that's just targeting groups of people is a failure.. if new players can't join, they will not want to join clans, and if new players that are skilled want to play but there's no benefit to being skilled other than waiting out on the tech.. they've lost that player also because it's just plain boring. I'm not saying in any way that I want imbalance I'm just saying that it would be nice if having skills with a mouse in FPS games was beneficial for people that are actually aiming for vitals, simply because it would add that extra random factor to the game when good players face off against eachother.
Anyways you are not even discussing the topic so I'll stop wasting my time?
If you have played the original NS or NS2, you would understand why "critical hits", or "head shots" are not needed in a game like NS2. The random factor that you described is exactly the devs are trying to avoid, to emphasize on the strategic (eg map control & awareness) and tactical (eg ambush) aspects of the game. Extra random factors create more extreme borderline cases, making games more difficult to balance. Do you really want Marines to kill a Skulk in 0.2 seconds, while it takes a Skulk 1-5 seconds to even get close to a Marine?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, any game that's just targeting groups of people is a failure.. if new players can't join, they will not want to join clans, and if new players that are skilled want to play but there's no benefit to being skilled other than waiting out on the tech.. they've lost that player also because it's just plain boring.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I fail to see how adding headshot to NS2 makes it universally more appealing, since any skilled player will learn that, it is already very rewarding when all their attacks hit. In fact, that is what the damage and health in the game are balanced upon. If you personally find the game boring, then don't play it. I think the majority of NS2 players will not be deterred by it.
I've already said I'm most likely not going to play because it doesn't suit my tastes.. however I feel like the NS community fails at knowing what they want.. because what you all want is really damn boring.. I also fail to see how a noob is going to get a "lucky" headshot.. that's usually not something that happens out of the blue. And also, I am not suggesting that headshot deal an immense amount of damage - I've said that so many times now but I feel like I need to say it again because you seem to be missing the point. Just because hitboxes have varied damage doesn't mean the head is going to have such increased damage that skulks are going to die ridiculously faster.. because, I also suggested that their armor be boosted to compensate, and I feel like it's fair for balancing that the skulks should get that.. not to mention their 3D model is more armored.
Expanding on the noobs getting lucky headshots though - what is so wrong about new players being good at first person shooters? You don't want to expand the community with new players that are actually skilled? Besides, it's still a team game and as such, 1 team must win.. and let it be the most skilled in more aspects than combat.. I'm not saying to eliminate any other parts of the game, all I'm suggesting is that if you truly want a game to be competitive you might as well work on balancing it so that players that do want to beat the odds are able to get bonuses for skilled attacking.
Without skilled attacking the game is <i>too</i> heavily based on teams working together.. like any unit of either team running into 3+ players into the opposition will get destroyed.. and you would think that happens in any game - but I'm telling you I practiced in NS1 targeting skulks head, fades head, onos head - and then went and played CS 1.6 after and immediately was able to go 5 kills 0 deaths from just pure headshotting (3 headshots in a matter of seconds in some cases, clearing a room of opposition) - and before CS and NS I used to play Unreal Tournament, which is what started my bloodlust for headshots - but I feel like I'd much rather play CS 1.6 over UT because of how dynamic it is.. like I consider myself fairly pro in CS 1.6 and there are still times when other players catch me off guard, and it's a good thing because you learn the most from defeat. Plus, in CS 1.6 you must wait to respawn, in NS you don't even have to wait to respawn.. that's why I feel like teams should either crunch numbers and plan tactically and go big, or die so a new round can start with new teams and a new chance to dominate. I think it would actually add a lot to the game, but I seem to be the only person that thinks so but I encourage anyone else that feels the same to comment.
I personally think that the NS community is afraid of the good FPS players that this will attract to the game, I just don't understand why you wouldn't want to be recognized for having skills as every player in NS - marine and alien.
I dont like the idea, it brings out stuff based more on luck and makes balancing even harder for all skill levels.
Dynamic hitboxes don't work in ns2 and there are a few reasons off the top of my head why.
1) Players in the competitive scene aim better than you seem to give them credit for - there were godlike players in ns1 and the same is true in ns2. Dynamic hitboxes will cause imbalances between pub and competitive play. Needing to offset dynamic hitboxes with hp/armour changes is case in point.
2) Everything needs to be calculable to some degree. Its important to be able to determine how long you can stay in combat, when to retreat, when to attack etc. This isn't so when you start adding the chance for random damage bursts from headshots. This isn't cs where its range vs range, movement is restricted and you can't heal.
3) Skulks need 2 hives to leap in order to bite marine heads as they can't jump that high without, causing alot of issues and headaches around hive and leap balance.
4) Dynamic hitboxes increase skillcap but there are other ways to do so that are movement based. Skill in cs doesn't necessarily translate into the same skill in NS in somewhat the same way as a physicist is not as good at chemistry as a chemist.
<!--quoteo(post=1876707:date=Sep 24 2011, 04:58 PM:name=Corpsey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corpsey @ Sep 24 2011, 04:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876707"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've already said I'm most likely not going to play because it doesn't suit my tastes.. however I feel like the NS community fails at knowing what they want.. because what you all want is really damn boring..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well i think dynamic hitboxes are really damn boring. Following your logic does that mean I also know better than you about what you really want?
<!--quoteo(post=1876707:date=Sep 24 2011, 04:58 PM:name=Corpsey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corpsey @ Sep 24 2011, 04:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876707"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Expanding on the noobs getting lucky headshots though - what is so wrong about new players being good at first person shooters? You don't want to expand the community with new players that are actually skilled? Besides, it's still a team game and as such, 1 team must win.. and let it be the most skilled in more aspects than combat..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is nothing wrong with new players being good at fps. There is tracking and twitch, two different skillsets. Skill is always dependant on the rulesets of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1876707:date=Sep 24 2011, 04:58 PM:name=Corpsey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corpsey @ Sep 24 2011, 04:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876707"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Plus, in CS 1.6 you must wait to respawn, in NS you don't even have to wait to respawn.. that's why I feel like teams should either crunch numbers and plan tactically and go big, or die so a new round can start with new teams and a new chance to dominate. I think it would actually add a lot to the game, but I seem to be the only person that thinks so but I encourage anyone else that feels the same to comment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
FPS/RTS
<!--quoteo(post=1876707:date=Sep 24 2011, 04:58 PM:name=Corpsey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corpsey @ Sep 24 2011, 04:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876707"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally think that the NS community is afraid of the good FPS players that this will attract to the game, I just don't understand why you wouldn't want to be recognized for having skills as every player in NS - marine and alien.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lack of dynamic hitboxes does not equal lack of recognition of skill or skill for that matter of fact. I'm surprised this is coming out of you at all when you've apparantly played ns1..
<!--coloro:#ffff00--><span style="color:#ffff00"><!--/coloro-->You brought it to the point!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
All this is because the frightend skilless serfs don't want to bow before their rightfull competetive playing masters.
Get serious, if you want to play with headshots, bunnyhopping and related "pro" features, search for a game with a concept that supports your preferred playing style. But, as it has been mentioned a few times already in this thread, NS2 values other game mechanics.
And a Skulk biting a Marines head? Good luck with one Hive to achieve this! Also Skulks are usless then, it takes 0.4 to 0.5 seconds to kill a Skulk now depending on wich start gun you use. Adding HS would decrease this number and Aliens will have some Hard times to even close the gap.
NS2 already has a dynamic aspect but on the DMG side. Choosing the right weapon at the right times dealing the DMG-Type is really important.
F.e. Many complian that the LMG is usless but it is so powerfull! 500-650 DMG per clip at a high (0.05s) rate of fire with a imense precision. And it's 2. ND attack can pushback leaping/jumping skulks leaving them defenseless but it needs practice to achieve a Leap hit (yeah you can be Tiger Woods in NS2).
The only ones that gain a bonus by getting HS are the Marines and not the Aliens.
Try to play in a Match and not Pub and you will find out, that NS2 almost everything is dynamic and important and each choice you take can be dramatic (in good and bad ways) for the whole team.
F.e. You just build 3 Drifters to get some Crags and whips on. Meanwhile a Marine killed the Link and you have no energy to replace thos 2 Cysts and no one can go gorge.
IMO this game is dynamic enough!
Edit:
Afraid about good FPS game. Lol. Do you think we don't play other FPS ( I play, AA2/3, CS, TF2, CoD, L4D and more). And I can say that I am a good FPS player Since 1998. And I am sure, no I know it, that good NS gamer a f.ucking good FPS gamers. Why? Aiming faster than the NME at a Head isn't hard and that is all you want with your dynamic Hitboxes. It is bull######! NS2 is more than who Aims faster at a head.
You got me angry with your last post!