Movement Mod
<div class="IPBDescription">Air control, blink momentum, and more</div>Hi everyone, I decided to re-make this mod with the goal of making movement exactly like NS1. It now uses a ported version of GoldSource movement and the speed values from NS1. Blink, leap, and charge are now exactly like NS1. Marines can glide-jump up obstacles without slowdown. I'm going to wait on adding crouch-glide-jump until a basic jump+crouch mechanic gets implemented by UWE.
The only real exceptions are the exosuit (which doesn't really have an NS1 equivalent), and the lerk, which I will be working on some more in the future. The readyroom player also uses clamped speed, so it will feel a little awkward as well.
It's up on workshop, enjoy!
The only real exceptions are the exosuit (which doesn't really have an NS1 equivalent), and the lerk, which I will be working on some more in the future. The readyroom player also uses clamped speed, so it will feel a little awkward as well.
It's up on workshop, enjoy!
Comments
1+
backwards blinking does not work, also blink speed feels too slowly. actually i prefer the behavior which we currently see in ns2. it requires more skill to perform a blink, because you are required to aim in the right direction initially (or you should at least since it makes it easier to control), instead of being able to freely move whereever you want. i also don't like the changes to leap. you are taking a lot of speed out of the game
I changed the initial blink velocity to be the max blink velocity in B187, though I may need to adjust costs a bit further to encourage longer blinks.
Leap should now have the same max speed / base walking speed ratio as NS1.
I also reduced stab damage so that it won't one-hit-kill unless the marines are far behind in upgrades.
Dont like the current version :(
Dont like the current version :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The air control prevents movement unless the desired movement direction is greater than 90 degrees away from your current direction. This is basically how it works (in practice) in half-life games. So you won't be able to do things like strafe to the side while jumping forward, but it allows for better control and vision when turning into targets from mid-air. With the vanilla air control, turning into a target is difficult because you have to account for the constant sideways movement caused by holding strafe.
Although, if you compare this mod to NS1 movement, you'll find that the air control still feels restricted. This is because NS2 doesn't have turning acceleration (which seems like a lot of work to implement correctly).
As for marines, I would like more control, but the game seems to be balanced so that marines play within those restrictions. So I'm unsure as to how to approach their evolution.
Although, if you compare this mod to NS1 movement, you'll find that the air control still feels restricted. This is because NS2 doesn't have turning acceleration (which seems like a lot of work to implement correctly).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you dont want sideways movement, then dont strafe while jumping?
Currently its like strafe doesnt work anymore in air, im not sure if it was that way in ns1 (havent played for years) but at least in hl2 games you can jump "around" corners or do things like this <a href="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12784365/pillar.png" target="_blank">http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12784365/pillar.png</a> which also kinda works in vanilla ns2.
But i guess maybe i dont really understand air control and its benefits, or what you are planning to do... looking forward to test more versions.
Could you do me a real favour? I see you doing a lot of movement stuff on the fade and i think its great. Could you also bring back the old skulk feel including bhop, whop n stuff. That were some parts that made ns legendary for me.
Since I made a promise to fmpone to name my first child after him for making the veil remake all I can offer you is choosing my second childs name or maybe to be my best man on the wedding ;)
I added an extra speed check when starting a jump (sometimes you could jump before speed was clamped).
I increased the skulk's leap force by 20%. It was too low compared to max leap speed.
(oops, forgot to change friction for skulks)
As for marines, I would like more control, but the game seems to be balanced so that marines play within those restrictions. So I'm unsure as to how to approach their evolution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The current alien movement systems have negligible depth. Any decently conditioned player (has played an fps game with advanced movement before at a decent level) can learn them in a couple of hours and master them in a couple of weeks. The only improvements over the NS1 equivalents is the wallwalking (which is a lot more robust now) and the Lerk flight (slightly better balanced and has more alternatives (although "pancaking" is still the most effective way of evading fire)).
The fade is by far the worst example: the new blink is basically an "I win" button. Press mouse2 and bacon comes out. Anybody with half a brain and a little experience with melee vs. ranged gameplay is basically unstoppable. The only times you'll ever die is if you get stuck or greedy.
As for the alien system not being complex enough, well that may be the case, but by no means is the system negligible. Perhaps just a poorly chosen word. For example, I would not say Lerk combat requires the same amount of effort as building an observatory which truly is, a negligible skill (Holding your use key.).
Jumping still is like on rails.
As for the rest of your post, I'm going to assume you agree with me considering you choose to quibble over words instead of making an argument.
As for the rest of your post, I'm going to assume you agree with me considering you choose to quibble over words instead of making an argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When I am moving from point A to point B, and there is no one around, that movement is not, by definition mind you, a combat related activity (I hope you realize this). Therefore adding some extra skill set in there is redundant imo. I do not want the extra hassle of having to perform some tedious task for an extra speed boost. Just like how I don't want to have to type "reload" before a game will allow me to reload my weapon (despite raising the game's overall skillset).
As for the rest of my post, I only "quibbled" over your word use because your original post, and this one I am quoting, come off extremely condescending. (Also, the Lerk flight -> Observatory building explanation was a valid argument.)
If you choose to interpret my post as condescending, that's your problem. Even if I was, it's no excuse. Your "observatory building explanation" was an argument to support your quibbling over words, not the actual point of the discussion.
Jumping still is like on rails.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I'd like to add blink acceleration back in and lower the initial boost from tapping blink. That should do the trick.
I'm also going to increase air acceleration, but it will still follow the same rules as before. It <i>should</i> feel like it's on rails if you're trying to use the forward key.
If you choose to interpret my post as condescending, that's your problem. Even if I was, it's no excuse. Your "observatory building explanation" was an argument to support your quibbling over words, not the actual point of the discussion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My posts were not all about you Fana. Overall I am fine with making changes to the system so long as bunny hopping, or some variant is <u>not</u> included (That was the direction I felt this mod may have headed in, and why I made my original response.). While bunny hopping would add to the complexity of combat, that does not justify the baggage it would bring requiring all players to always use it or lose advantage (Take note of that and think about how that would effect public play, new players to the game, etc.). My logic goes like this; will the addition of bunny hopping bring more players to the game then it will turn away? If yes, put it in, but in all likelihood the answer will be no. This is for the reasons I've already explained.
But if you want, why stop at bunny hopping? Why not make bunny hopping's air acceleration effect magnified by how many times you can strafe back and fourth while in flight? Also, while doing that, why not also increase speed if you move the mouse clockwise while strafing right, and counter-clockwise while strafing left? What about further increasing the speed if you right click in the air while doing this? Now imagine being forced to do this constantly or the other team's players will gain the speed advantage to a tech point?
The whole point is, when you understand entirely what bunny hopping is, what it means to a game, and what it means to the game's public, you'll see why it doesn't belong. As for the whole observatory comparison and what you think of it, who cares, it doesn't matter.
The main reason I prefer more Blink control is, NS2 maps are not flat, but have obstacles that can easily block straight line movement. In the most silly case, an egg can spawn in the way, and cause a Fade to lose control during Blink (try blinking into an egg and you'll see).
So I think UWE's changes to Blink control in build 187 were in the right direction. Penalizing Fades for changing movement direction (by costing extra energy) isn't such a good idea.
The main reason I prefer more Blink control is, NS2 maps are not flat, but have obstacles that can easily block straight line movement. In the most silly case, an egg can spawn in the way, and cause a Fade to lose control during Blink (try blinking into an egg and you'll see).
So I think UWE's changes to Blink control in build 187 were in the right direction. Penalizing Fades for changing movement direction (by costing extra energy) isn't such a good idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Originally, I wanted to keep the air control consistent with blink control, but the more I play with my modded version of blink, the more problems that seem to creep up. I oftentimes accidentally blink sideways because I have to use strafe keys to control direction. Getting blocked is also going to be a nightmare in full public servers. So, I'm either going to have to revert back to the default blink control, or make some pretty drastic changes.
Ah that. I've played with modifying Blink for quite a while.
Can you describe the movement you're trying to achieve? How does Blink move without pressing direction keys? What if, for example, you press the right key for a second when strafing left, and then release all direction keys?
But if you want, why stop at bunny hopping? Why not make bunny hopping's air acceleration effect magnified by how many times you can strafe back and fourth while in flight? Also, while doing that, why not also increase speed if you move the mouse clockwise while strafing right, and counter-clockwise while strafing left? What about further increasing the speed if you right click in the air while doing this? Now imagine being forced to do this constantly or the other team's players will gain the speed advantage to a tech point?
The whole point is, when you understand entirely what bunny hopping is, what it means to a game, and what it means to the game's public, you'll see why it doesn't belong<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While it is a somewhat unintuitive skill to learn (but so is 3D computer gaming as a whole, we've just learned to accept the logic of the system and adapted our thinking to it through years of playing), the actual inputs a player has to do while bunny hopping, isn't actually significantly larger than other comparable movement systems in the game. Compare it to the near constant spacebar spamming while in combat as Lerk or the hotkey frenzy that is marine commanding.
The beauty of bunny hopping isn't that it gives you a speed boost while performing some arbitrary punching on the keyboard, although the speed boost is certainly a necessary part of it. The beauty of bunny hopping is that a certain combination of inputs (again: all actions performed in a game are a certain combination of inputs, some more intuitive than others) makes you move in a way that opens up a lot more options and possibilities than any other system devised so far, all the while balancing melee vs. gameplay naturally while providing pros and cons to using it so that you are actually not required to use it to be successful (I've played with many top tier players who were able to perform well without knowing how to bunnyhop) but still given benefits for choosing to learn and practice it.
<!--quoteo(post=1880581:date=Oct 19 2011, 03:17 AM:name=Kalabalana)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kalabalana @ Oct 19 2011, 03:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880581"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While bunny hopping would add to the complexity of combat, that does not justify the baggage it would bring requiring all players to always use it or lose advantage (Take note of that and think about how that would effect public play, new players to the game, etc.). My logic goes like this; will the addition of bunny hopping bring more players to the game then it will turn away? If yes, put it in, but in all likelihood the answer will be no. This is for the reasons I've already explained.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is, unfortunately, a valid concern and I believe the main reason the NS2 devs have so far balked at adding bunny hopping to the game. Personally, I feel that the pros outweight the cons, and I certainly don't think we should always appeal to the lowest common denominator. If that was the case, we should all just go play crazy birds.
False skill constraints suck, but I think are required to balance a game out.
tapping blink you should leap forward as you did in ns1(having your momentum carry you), but doing so you're visible
holding blink would be the current blink method
I've always gently tapped my blink and have my momentum carry me to the position, like many ns1 fades.
constantly holding blink drains the energy far to fast.
as for secondary fade attack - making it an instant attack but short delay in between would actually make it useful in combat.
Kalabalana @
sounds like you choice not to make stand on either you hate/don't want skill based movement or you welcome it with open arms if more people demand it. And dumbing down the game for easy play, not making it challenging isn't the best way to encourage people to play it, and if you do they will get tired of it pretty quick. The game already pretty much dumbed-down compared to ns1 if you haven't yet noticed.
its much needed change for aliens.
I want what is best for the game, I do not believe adding bunny hopping is the correct choice. This point of view has also been reflected by FPS game developers for over half a decade now across the board. I'm not about to pretend I know more about gaming than industry experts.
I suppose it's possible to argue that it's main use is "travelling faster" if you look at how much it is used for travelling compared to how much it's used in combat, but you're focusing on the wrong things in that case. If I had to choose between either using it to travel faster or in combat, the choice would be combat every time. Bunny hopping in NS1 was primarily a tool used to gain an advantage in many combat situations while also being useful for traversing the map faster.
Using the fact that you could use it for travelling faster as an argument against it makes no sense at all considering all movement systems have that purpose. If you automatically exclude anything that requires skill to use to travel faster, you're also automatically excluding all movement systems that have any sort of depth to their skill requirements.
<!--quoteo(post=1880743:date=Oct 19 2011, 11:41 PM:name=Kalabalana)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kalabalana @ Oct 19 2011, 11:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880743"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I want what is best for the game, I do not believe adding bunny hopping is the correct choice. This point of view has also been reflected by FPS game developers for over half a decade now across the board. I'm not about to pretend I know more about gaming than industry experts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do you think I'm here (and why the NS1 community survived for so long, or any number of the other old school games for that matter) playing this game instead of the games made by said "experts"? At this point I'm not sure it's even possible to dumb down triple A title games any further. That they sell well is no argument for their quality, nor does any comparison with them really apply to the rather unique ranged vs. melee gameplay in NS1 and 2.
Fair enough.
<!--quoteo(post=1880761:date=Oct 19 2011, 09:19 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 19 2011, 09:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Using the fact that you could use it for travelling faster as an argument against it makes no sense at all considering all movement systems have that purpose. If you automatically exclude anything that requires skill to use to travel faster, you're also automatically excluding all movement systems that have any sort of depth to their skill requirements.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you ever played <a href="http://www.foddy.net/Athletics.html" target="_blank">QWOP</a>? This is an extreme example, but illustrates my point, where do we stop before it gets ridiculous? Bunny hopping might be that sweet spot between no skill in movement, and too much. I think it's slightly on the "too much" side of things, and will hurt the game. We can't say whether it hurt NS1 or not, since there's no relative comparison. But I do recall a lot of people not happy about it when I used to play.
<!--quoteo(post=1880761:date=Oct 19 2011, 09:19 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 19 2011, 09:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why do you think I'm here (and why the NS1 community survived for so long, or any number of the other old school games for that matter) playing this game instead of the games made by said "experts"? At this point I'm not sure it's even possible to dumb down triple A title games any further. That they sell well is no argument for their quality, nor does any comparison with them really apply to the rather unique ranged vs. melee gameplay in NS1 and 2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exact same reason I'm here, you share my sentiments apparently. It's possible I don't know enough about ranged vs. melee FPS games, but I do know what makes a game good, and what makes a game prosper financially. If UWE creates a cult hit that appeals to a demographic too small to support development, then it's game over for Natural Selection. While I'm not saying this will be the case, I just feel bunny hopping would be a step in this direction imo.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At this point I'm not sure it's even possible to dumb down triple A title games any further.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
>_> <_< Never say never. I can't even play CoD and the like since the gameplay seems so horribly simplistic. It pretty much feels like I just had a full frontal lobotomy which compels me to clap my hands like a seal while eating my ice cream. Hopefully NS2 can find a good balance between full frontal lobotomy, and bottomless pit of despair (Eve Online) levels of difficulty to make the movement abilities sublime to learn.
Do the aliens scale in skill enough? The marines are challenged by new detail overload, dark maps, teleport blink, early leap and all that. Meanwhile aliens have more simplistic and easy to use movement abilities at their disposal, but very little room to grow onwards from there.
If I have to take a guess right now, I'd say it's going to be a total mess balancing the game between the skill levels. Aliens just don't have similar kind of challenges and room for improvement as marines do. It already happened to some extend in NS1 with top tier being always the most consistent in winning marine rounds while lower levels struggled a lot to 'steal' a round from alien opponents in smaller games. And that's with the old movement skill system that seems to be unthinkably difficult for modern gaming.
I would not be concerned about players having "too high" skill difference, after certain level players tend to play gathers and practice clan wars or other more organized playmodes rather than public where new players usually start.