Alien upgrades - Lack of direction?

Align

I'll just quote koruyo directly from <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=115204&view=findpost&p=1880662" target="_blank">here</a>.
<!--quoteo(post=1880662:date=Oct 19 2011, 02:30 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Oct 19 2011, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880662"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>While we are at it - Alien upgrades/researches:</b>

NS1:
<b>No General Damage or Armor upgrades</b>(ok hidden for armor depending on hives => armor more effective. Read something like that somewhere)

<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->Defensive<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> (Carapace, Regeneration, Redemption)
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->Movement<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> (Silence, Adrenaline, Celerity)
<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->Sensory<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> (Sent of Fear, Focus, Cloak?)

<b>Weapons: Depending on Hives, each lifeform got additional "weapons"</b>

Every upgrade hat 3 lvls, if you have 3 chambers you get the highest lvl of the upgrade => strongest version.
You can only pick one of each category, and each chamber is linked to a hive ... so to have 2 different chambers you need to have 2 hives.

Depending on lifeform or playstyle you had different combos, that are still effective in their way. Like a silent ambush skulk (Carapace/Regeneration, Silence, Cloak/Focus) or are speedy in your face skulk (Carapace, Celerity, Sent of Fear/Focus)
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NS2: (parts from the design log ideas)
<b>General: Damage(whip) and Armor(Crag) upgrades</b> - but they dont work for every lifeform??? oO

<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->Crag:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Carapace, Regeneration
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->Shift:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Mutation
<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->Shade:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Camo
<!--coloro:#8B0000--><span style="color:#8B0000"><!--/coloro-->Whip<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->: Frenzy, Swarm, Something
<!--coloro:#556B2F--><span style="color:#556B2F"><!--/coloro-->Infestation Chamber<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->?: Celerity, Infectious Blood

<b>Weapons: In addition there are upgrades for other "weapons" - like bilebomb for gorge.</b>
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Its a complete mess compared to ns1.
There is no specialization on playstyle lifeform or situation anymore.
=> the upgrades cant be as strong or are only effective in certain situation - e.g. Celerity should only work on infestation oO...

So... whats the plan??? - with every upgrade and weapon - i can/have to upgrade 20 different things?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

konata

I did like the NS1 system very much.

It was simple, effective, gave you choice and more importantly, meant you had teamwork but not an abundance of teamwork like relying on an alien commander to have to do it all on their own, it could be a team effort.

Smasher

Good point OP (/link/quote)

Egad!

It's because the aliens now have a commander, so they have to make the upgrades more like an RTS, so that there is micromanagement that will require a commander. This, however, goes against all that the aliens stand for -- doing things on the fly, and not having any centralized leadership (they have a hivemind instead).

Still, it's nice to have someone else to help support the gorge in building things. But I think they've gone and made the commander's role too tedious. For the aliens, it should be something like a player hops in the hive, sets up a few structures, then leaves. Very organic.

I think the root problem of this is that the commander in general, for both marines and aliens, needs a lot of work. Right now, it's just a watered down version of an RTS. I think UWE needs to do a major overhaul to make the commander more about strategy and coordination, and less about just dropping structures and researching upgrades.

IronHorse

for marines, the commander <i>IS </i>about strategy and coordination as well? microphone and waypoints and commanding a battlefield alongside situational dependent tech.

aeroripper

Currently, yes. I posted a lengthy response in that thread <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115204&view=findpost&p=1880803" target="_blank">here.</a> There is a fundamentally different approach in the current NS2 model from what NS1 had. I suggested a way to blend to the two together nicely.

Smasher

<!--quoteo(post=1880805:date=Oct 20 2011, 03:16 AM:name=aeroripper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aeroripper @ Oct 20 2011, 03:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880805"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Currently, yes. I posted a lengthy response in that thread <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115204&view=findpost&p=1880803" target="_blank">here.</a> There is a fundamentally different approach in the current NS2 model from what NS1 had. I suggested a way to blend to the two together nicely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very good and well written post (in link), and suggestion:)

Egad!

<!--quoteo(post=1880800:date=Oct 20 2011, 01:59 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Oct 20 2011, 01:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880800"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->for marines, the commander <i>IS </i>about strategy and coordination as well? microphone and waypoints and commanding a battlefield alongside situational dependent tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Very true, but I feel at this point it isn't quite there yet for the Marine commander, but it's close. Again, it's a much bigger problem with the alien commander being almost irrelevant.

As it is now, I just see a lot of games where the interaction between the commander and the soldiers boils down to everyone abusing the commander. I just feel there could be a bit more done to foster cohesion between soldiers and the commanders.

I think <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115204&st=40&p=1880803&#entry1880803" target="_blank">aeroripper</a> nailed it on the head though when he mentioned it being more or less a buffett, where you can research all upgrades rather than have to make tradeoffs. THAT'S what I feel is missing from the game, for both sides. With mutually exclusive tech trees, its easy for a team to decide pre-game what tech-tree/strategy they want to use. Plus, having to give up certain abilities (at least initially) is what makes each game unique and exciting. As much as I loathe WoW, the one thing I <i>do</i> like about the game is the class specializations. An affliction warlock plays completely different from a destruction warlock. Those specializations make the classes much more compelling and interesting than they would be otherwise, and the same goes for mutually-exclusive tech-trees in NS2.

_Thresh_

A big part of the "trade-offs" in NS1 was life-form/building (fade or hive) or weapon versus tech (early shotgun versus phase gates) etc.

With the p.res t.res system effectively removing half of the macro level trade-offs, seems like- as a starting point- you have to double the content in each of the p.res t.res trees: just to bring it up to the same level as NS1 in terms of options.

culprit

I too miss the trade-off style NS1 alien upgrades. It made getting a 2nd hive in everyone's interest. Especially if you weren't so into the 1st chamber chosen. Expansion dependent tech seems to be something missing a bit from NS2 at the moment. Marines have little need to expand except for res or to deny alien expansion. I was somewhat disappointed when the change was implemented rather early that made extra comm stations no longer necessary.

I really liked how the changing territory control related to changes in tech available in NS1 as well. It was also nice that chambers placed kept the upgrade available even when the 2nd or 3rd hive was lost. It did a lot to make the slippery slope less drastic and allow for back-and-forth pushes. I think there needs to be some similar requirement in NS2, especially for the extra comm stations. I think this would be a great way to address the marine turtling problem that's occurring currently. There certainly needs to be some tech that can be retained, like the chamber upgrades in NS1. There just need to be some branches or tiers of the tech tree that are dependent on hives and comm stations.

Maybe something like limiting the # of simultaneous units for MACs or ARCs, perhaps even turrets based on the number of comm stations active. The comm station would act like another processing node so that more units could be fielded together. Sort of like a hidden-upkeep requirement. Just a wild suggestion there.