Time to think about shipping the game
rein4ce
Join Date: 2008-07-05 Member: 64567Members
Join Date: 2008-07-05 Member: 64567Members
Ok, I have been following this game from day 1 so don't get any wrong idea about me, but seeing as we soon reach a 1 year old beta milestone, I think guys (UWE), you really should push for the release soon. You see, after all this time it is safe to say that the game is basically unplayable, seeing as there isn't really anybody playing it (perhaps 1 or 2 servers) nor is it particularly fun to play it either even with fluent FPS.
So here is an idea: just GO WITH THE ORIGINAL NS MECHANICS, don't waste anymore time on coming up with all those new potential features, that later turn out to be either unbalanced or not not that much of a deal anyway. Just add HA, Onos, Gorges building structures, same upgrades as in NS1 and ship the damn thing. That's it.
NS1 has proven to be a very playable and *fun* game, not so many other games can boast that, many many new AAA titles turn out to be flops. Don't put the experience you have gained over the years to waste. Seeing as still there isn't a clear path for the game, I fear the future for NS2 right now is no longer bright.
For new players it won't matter if it's a carbon copy of the original if they have never played it, and for die hard fans it's not gonna be a turn down either. Produce something that we all know is fun and challenging to play instead of desperately trying to make it different for the sake of novelty.
When the game is released, leave making improvements to the modders - they will have lots of spare time on their hands to test out cool variations of the gameplay, while you guys being a small studio I'm afraid cannot afford that. They can later release mods with power zones, commander only building or new weapons.
Come on, this game is already more or less completely forgotten after players seeing how uncompleted (and unoptimized) it is didn't bother to check it out ever again.
Most of the hype about the title is already behind us. Let's get down to nitty-gritty stuff now, optimize the engine and netcode and aim for a release.
Oh and by the way, I really don't care about the fanboys reaction. Parts of the NS2 community turned out to be one of the worst imaginable some time ago, unable to withstand the slightiest critisism.
I am sure people will be reassuring themselves that everything is on track and going for the best but let's keep it real: Black Mesa: Source had the same kind of people, it lead them nowhere. When it comes to NS2, ever since the first beta (year ago) the game really hasn't change THAT much (no new core features, mechanics or significant performance improvements). And on the forums now I can see all the same people discussing the same things over and over, to what end?
I still hope that NS2 becomes a hit one day...
So here is an idea: just GO WITH THE ORIGINAL NS MECHANICS, don't waste anymore time on coming up with all those new potential features, that later turn out to be either unbalanced or not not that much of a deal anyway. Just add HA, Onos, Gorges building structures, same upgrades as in NS1 and ship the damn thing. That's it.
NS1 has proven to be a very playable and *fun* game, not so many other games can boast that, many many new AAA titles turn out to be flops. Don't put the experience you have gained over the years to waste. Seeing as still there isn't a clear path for the game, I fear the future for NS2 right now is no longer bright.
For new players it won't matter if it's a carbon copy of the original if they have never played it, and for die hard fans it's not gonna be a turn down either. Produce something that we all know is fun and challenging to play instead of desperately trying to make it different for the sake of novelty.
When the game is released, leave making improvements to the modders - they will have lots of spare time on their hands to test out cool variations of the gameplay, while you guys being a small studio I'm afraid cannot afford that. They can later release mods with power zones, commander only building or new weapons.
Come on, this game is already more or less completely forgotten after players seeing how uncompleted (and unoptimized) it is didn't bother to check it out ever again.
Most of the hype about the title is already behind us. Let's get down to nitty-gritty stuff now, optimize the engine and netcode and aim for a release.
Oh and by the way, I really don't care about the fanboys reaction. Parts of the NS2 community turned out to be one of the worst imaginable some time ago, unable to withstand the slightiest critisism.
I am sure people will be reassuring themselves that everything is on track and going for the best but let's keep it real: Black Mesa: Source had the same kind of people, it lead them nowhere. When it comes to NS2, ever since the first beta (year ago) the game really hasn't change THAT much (no new core features, mechanics or significant performance improvements). And on the forums now I can see all the same people discussing the same things over and over, to what end?
I still hope that NS2 becomes a hit one day...
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
p.s. first post in long flame thread
^that
If you want ns1, go play ns1 or make an ns1 mod yourself. fmpone is even making a version of ns_veil already, so part of the work is literally done for you.
Let's wait for some people that actually have some insight about how game development works and what risks are involved.
Minus all of the new core features, mechanics and significant performance improvements, you'd be right.
You obviously no nothing of programming, or even all the 3d modeling, animation, ect that is invovled in making a game.
Case in point. "Project Titan" is being worked on by blizzard. No one knows what it is, they never said. It's been in development for years now. So just get over it and QQ someplace else.
-In before lock-
Let's wait for some people that actually have some insight about how game development works and what risks are involved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Risk: Developers release a prettier version of NS1 and hope that people will buy it on the hope that some modder, somewhere would've created a mod to make the game different from the original.
Unfortunately people will only buy a sequel for the new features and updated gameplay.
I can't name any company that has released a successful clone of their old title with only updated graphics. As much as people will hate me mentioning these titles... Even the CoD and Counter Strike series have vastly changed mechanics and features.
The developers do have direction for the development, follow the dev posts and design logs. The reason that the game may seem to be directionless is due to the developers taking an agile development approach which is aimed towards gathering constant customer feedback.
Gameplay will signficantly change over time depending on what the community likes and how they respond.
Believe it or not, the majority of this community actually likes being included in the development process and helping evolve the game over time.
There is already an extensive modding community which the developers frequently work with.
The community is growing over time and there are far more players now than there were 6 months ago. A good indicater they're heading in the right direction.
I also can't tell if you're trolling or not when you say something like this:
<i>When the game is released, leave making improvements to the modders - they will have lots of spare time on their hands to test out cool variations of the gameplay,</i>
Again, people won't buy a rehash with prettier graphics, if there aren't people then there aren't modders. You're placing the cart infront of the horse.
<b>Hell, why don't you just go to the server browser and tell me where this huge flourishing community is?</b>
Because I'm under the impression more people played the game in december last year than they do now.
Just because people are constantly typing in what they want to see in a game on the forums is no indicator of anything, every single project has hundreds of these kind of people. What really matters is how many of those people will be eventually persuaded to buy the game and keep enjoying it a month later.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't name any company that has released a successful clone of their old title with only updated graphics. As much as people will hate me mentioning these titles... Even the CoD and Counter Strike series have vastly changed mechanics and features.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where do I begin, Quake, Medal of Honor, CoD, Modern Warfare, Battlefield series... Maybe you mean different thing when you say "mechanics" but in these games the gameplay is virtually the same, with small additions or changes, but nothing drastic.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unfortunately people will only buy a sequel for the new features and updated gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What people do you mean? the old NS1 fans? You really think that's UWE's primary target? They want to appeal to broader AND younger audience. Even NS1 is lightyears ahead of current gaming market when it comes to innovation and gameplay diversity. NS2 is a tempered version of that but still would stand out.
Now, how many games with brand new ideas can you name that really caught up and how many of these have failed miserably making the studios go out of business? Even game as popular as TF2 is nothing more but a prettified version of TFC (exact clone actually) with some innovations added later (like for example cart pushing mode)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The developers do have direction for the development, follow the dev posts and design logs. The reason that the game may seem to be directionless is due to the developers taking an agile development approach which is aimed towards gathering constant customer feedback.
Gameplay will signficantly change over time depending on what the community likes and how they respond.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course, it has been like that since they started the development. Very much appreciated. I have been following the tweets about design ideas for how long, 3 years now? How does that help actually releasing a final product that will cater to the general audience though? You do realize that the community will be coming up with all new ideas every week for many years to come, right?
Listening to the community feedback... for the longest time I could see obvious patterns after every release: XXX is overpowered, YYY is ######, commander is good, commander is bad, allow building by gorges, do not allow, MACs this, MACs that - back and forth. Nothing concrete has been really established by the community over the years.
It is not about making NS2 same as NS1 but 1) actually completing the game 2) having some assurance that design approach is fun to play and will sell.
343 Industries, Halo: Combat Evolved Anniversary. The whole selling point for the game is that it's LITERALLY a clone with updated graphics.
Apart from that, I completely agree with you.
I think everyone has reacted quite reasonably actually.
Even if UWE did do what you say, that still requires months of implimentation and bug fixing, etc, to get it right.
Quite frankly, I don't think you should start threads on topics that you clearly are not experienced enough to understand.
Someone should close this thread post haste.
On a sidenote though, rein4ce you just need to get your facts straight. Obviously your frustrated because using your everyday rulers for this ''beta'' would make it a total failure, but the fact is that this isn't your everyday beta. Also comparing UWE to companies like DICE and Valve makes you a complete moron.
There's already a wiki page from the developers that applies to your suggestion.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Design_Direction" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/inde...esign_Direction</a>
There are many stages of development, including variations of beta development - NS2 is in an early-mid beta.
If I don't mistake, TF2 was in development for almost 10 years, BF3 beta came out <i>after</i> 3 years of development on the game. Not to mention they're using an existing game engine.
These games have all been released as public betas in late stages of development - UWE has taken a different trend and not only given people access to the early beta but also the alpha version.
If you haven't realised it's also the engine which is in beta and is being tested, anyone who bought the game at this stage of development and expected a fully released game within 6 months is either not fully aware of where the game is at, or are kidding themselves.
Even modifications ontop of existing engines remain in beta for several years.
My comment in regards to a rehash of an old game was speaking in the literal terms where you stated to revert the game to NS1 mechanics and gameplay. This would effectively be a clone of the first game with prettier graphics.
What you see with the Quake, Battlefield and CoD series are games which have included several new features and made large variations in gameplay (battlefield 1942 -> 2142, 200 year time difference? I call the changes pretty drastic) - CoD has also evolved from WW2 era to modern day.
You can't say that the gameplay of these games hasn't drastically changed with each release, they keep the core elements the same - sure. But so does NS2, the core elements of gameplay are still the same. Sure the gorge can't build as many structures and the alien commander needs more involvement - but you can't fly fighter jets in the first version of BF1942 or walk around in mechs. Same applies to CoD - you can't call in an air strike in the first release of the game. Pretty big mechanic changes if you ask me.
I don't think you've noticed the growing server list either, or the actual game stability we're experiencing these days. We don't experience server crashes midgame and necessary server restarts have been greatly reduced.
I am 100% sure you are either trolling or an idiot when you say TF2 is a clone of TFC. I'm not going to bother writing further response to that.
The community has given a considerable amount of feedback that has been included in the game to help shape it. New and Old players which have ultimately made the game better. Look at the prototyping mod for a great example or read through the suggestions board where quite a few ideas have been included. Fade nerf? The community is constantly giving feedback even with whinge posts on what they'd like to see balanced, removed or added.
Ultimately the development of the game is going smoothly and is coming along at a steady pace. The developers in short won't officially release the game until it is decently polished. That takes time to do and you obviously haven't been involved in any sort of game or software development process.
<i>Now, how many games with brand new ideas can you name that really caught up and how many of these have failed miserably making the studios go out of business?</i>
Halo Wars comes to mind.
Discussing game mechanics with someone that claims "battlefield 1942 -> 2142, 200 year time difference? I call the changes pretty drastic" is pretty futile. Obviously you have never worked in the industry and perceive a game from a typical user's points of view: what guns are included and what models and textures they have used. What does even setting of a game have to do with core functionality in this case.
Like I said over a year before: without fluent core mechanics (movement, lack of jerkiness and proper netcode) you can forget about aspiring to be a hit multiplayer title.
I am sure Max is working very hard on the optimizations, but out of thousands of people that pre-ordered the game there is only a handful of servers that most of the time are empty.
I need to say no more.
Happy flaming!
Discussing game mechanics with someone that claims "battlefield 1942 -> 2142, 200 year time difference? I call the changes pretty drastic" is pretty futile. Obviously you have never worked in the industry and perceive a game from a typical user's points of view: what guns are included and what models and textures they have used. What does even setting of a game have to do with core functionality in this case.
Like I said over a year before: without fluent core mechanics (movement, lack of jerkiness and proper netcode) you can forget about aspiring to be a hit multiplayer title.
I am sure Max is working very hard on the optimizations, but out of thousands of people that pre-ordered the game there is only a handful of servers that most of the time are empty.
I need to say no more.
Happy flaming!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So in summary from this thread you've gone from asking to have the game released within a couple of months, as a "carbon copy" of NS1 to just having the netcode fixed? Nice work.
"What does even setting of a game have to do with core functionality in this case."
I've never stated that the setting impacts functionality, but impacts the game mechanics which is what we were discussing.
The fact the game is set in the future vs 1942 leads to new ways for players to achieve victory, contains new game modes as well as providing new features to be taken advantage of. These all impact the mechanics of the game and change how the players interact.
Here is a basic wikipedia article for you to read up on:
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_mechanics" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_mechanics</a>
Overall your argument has been pretty inconsistent. Hopefully you'll come to enjoy a game which is still in development instead of actively criticising what is a work in progress and a game which many people enjoy playing and being involved with.
As you said, the guys are working very hard. Patience is a virtue when it comes to waiting for a small team to make a large game.
Trying to remake NS1 would still require the exo and onos, and it would still require fixing the lag and FPS issues, and it would still require more maps. I don't see what difference it would make honestly.
It's taking far longer than it should, but there doesn't seem to be any way to make it go faster.
Not sure if sarcastic.
I thought that and okay by todays standards it is a bad idea.
Although if you viewed the Blizzard videos they released this year about their history, most months they paid all their employees late all the way from the early 90s until a little over WoW got big. So you have to start somewhere and 'day to day' is somewhere.
EDIT: This one - <a href="http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/about/b20/videos.html#blizzard-retrospective" target="_blank">http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/about...d-retrospective</a> - Well worth the 49 minutes.
Don't forget that UWE also has some other Projects like Decoda (Licensed by: Electronic Arts, Lionhead, Raytheon, Gas Powered Games, Mcafee, Big Huge Games, Creative Assembly, A2M, NCSoft, High Voltage, Playfirst, Riot Games and dozens of others).
UWE also wants to build the bests tools in industry also and also work on a Engine and a Game. Thats 3 things at the same time with a smal group. There don't need as much money as every new CoD costs. MW2 costed around 200mil dollars and on the CoD XP 2011 you had a pricepool of 1mil dollars just to promote MW3.
At Chris:
If we count the maps now that we can play (tram, summit, veil, triad, descent, Turtle) and theones WIP (mineshaft, Aleser, junction etc) I am sure in 2 to 5 build we will see alot more maps.
UWE also wants to build the bests tools in industry also and also work on a Engine and a Game. Thats 3 things at the same time with a smal group. There don't need as much money as every new CoD costs. MW2 costed around 200mil dollars and on the CoD XP 2011 you had a pricepool of 1mil dollars just to promote MW3.
At Chris:
If we count the maps now that we can play (tram, summit, veil, triad, descent, Turtle) and theones WIP (mineshaft, Aleser, junction etc) I am sure in 2 to 5 build we will see alot more maps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only map I'm aware of that works is summit. Tram just doesn't, full stop, summit just about does, and community maps are WIP.
That's something every game development company wants.
In relation to CoD too, the marketing budget doesn't matter. At this day and age now they really don't need to market, their franchise name sells. They're more obliged now to go to events, market to people in the fun ways as they do not to get their name out there or the game out there, but I'd imagine it is more for fun's sake.
There is no need for a feature rollback. But the goal from here forward should be NS1 parity (not clone) and optimize with ruthless efficiency. If it is not core game mechanic (HA, JP, Onos, maps) or optimizing then stop working on it. There will be at least 3-4 sprints of balancing after the core game mechanics are in.
The constant jib-jab about new features is driving me insane and I only have $40-ish dollars invested in this. I'm all for agile but the mission trumps all.
New features can come in patches/DLC or NS3 or mods. UWE was born from the mod culture of the early 00's. That culture has died in almost all games because of the focus on consoles. If they can revive that they have a shot at something revolutionary in PC gaming regardless of NS2's popularity.
Flayra/UWE know the right answers, they have a history of making good decisions that result in great games. K.I.S.S.
I'm in this for the long haul though. In it's current state NS2 is one of the best games on Steam. Keep up the good work and prove me wrong.
This doesn't have to stop with v1.0. This is Natural Selection, evolution is implied. The beauty of PC gaming is the way the games (used to) evolve for years after you purchased them. There is a business model hiding in this long beta that I think Flayra/UWE are smart enough to exploit if they can get the momentum behind NS2 that NS1 had.
Really?
You do know about some of the games they sell on steam right?
Let us worry about our funding situation. And, in fact, our funding situation is fine, and there is no risk of us going bankrupt before we release NS2 due to lack of money.
--Cory