Going back and looking again you are right, I was getting a bit crazy there. The skulk doesn't suffer a major penalty in vertical viewing area from NS1->NS2, it's more a case of differently arranged teeth blocking part of the screen in a different way. Where NS1 teeth were arranged in a staggered fashion, the NS2 mouth occupies a solid block of screen with protruding teeth. I don't know what the skulk FOV setting was in NS1, but I presume they are the same, or close.
In NS2 FOV is set from the horizontal and then the vertical is scaled to your aspect, here is a screen I took in 4:3. The red box is what you see in 16:10 and the blue box is what you see in 16:9. I have provided a screenshot from NS1 for comparison.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally I hope they change this as I need to run it at 4:3 on my 16:10 monitor as the FOV I get on my native resolution makes me feel sick.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think they can actually do anything to fix that apart from increase total FOV. If they switched to a vertical FOV setting like a lot of modern games, it simply results in 4:3 aspect having reduced horizontal rather than increased vertical.
<!--quoteo(post=1884870:date=Nov 13 2011, 11:39 PM:name=Destroid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Destroid @ Nov 13 2011, 11:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884870"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think they can actually do anything to fix that apart from increase total FOV. If they switched to a vertical FOV setting like a lot of modern games, it simply results in 4:3 aspect having reduced horizontal rather than increased vertical.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand there are issues with allowing certain people to see more of the screen, but as long as there's a limit on the range of FOV then I think it's fair. It seems silly to reduce what people running widescreen monitors can see when the vast majority have them. According to the steam survey only about 15-20% are running 4:3 resolutions, with the rest running either 16:9 or 16:10. IMO if you are running 4:3 as your native res then you should see less horizontally - you can always run a widescreen resolution and have black bars if you really want the extra space.
If they leave it as it currently is then it just makes people like me run 4:3 resolutions on widesceen monitors in order to get the extra FOV. I'd much rather run at my native res but if I do it feels like it's constantly zoomed in.
So your issue is being penalised the vertical FOV? And you would prefer that 4:3 users be punished instead, because they are a smaller group (after all, you too can run black bars if you wish)?. I think the current system is the best you can use, because horizontal FOV is without a doubt more important than vertical in FPS, it's just that for some shooters like Natural Selection, the vertical FOV is quite important too.
<!--quoteo(post=1884873:date=Nov 14 2011, 12:19 AM:name=Destroid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Destroid @ Nov 14 2011, 12:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884873"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So your issue is being penalised the vertical FOV? And you would prefer that 4:3 users be punished instead, because they are a smaller group (after all, you too can run black bars if you wish)?. I think the current system is the best you can use, because horizontal FOV is without a doubt more important than vertical in FPS, it's just that for some shooters like Natural Selection, the vertical FOV is quite important too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it seems silly to penalise the vast majority of players just because a small minority wont get to see a little extra on the side of the screen. Why should the aspect ratio that displays the default FOV correctly be 4:3? It makes far more sense to have the default FOV work with the most popular aspect ratio (16:9, I think) and then cut off a small amount of horizontal space for the others. That way all of the players can play the game with the intended FOV and only a small number have a slight disadvantage, rather than most having a zoomed in look with a small number playing with the correct FOV.
I guess the argument is that if everyone sees the exact same amount of horizontal space then it's fair. IMO it's a far bigger disadvantage to have a decreased FOV than it is to have a little space cut off.
It's not really to do with seeing more horizontal or vertical space. When I play with a low FOV it makes me feel sick and it's difficult to orientate as it feels like I'm playing with zoom constantly turned on. TF2 and many other multiplayer FPS games allow you to change the FOV and give you more horizontal viewing space when running at widescreen resolutions. I don't really think it's a big deal.
As I said before, I do run with black bars at the moment (horizontal) :(
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited November 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1884870:date=Nov 13 2011, 04:39 PM:name=Destroid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Destroid @ Nov 13 2011, 04:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884870"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have provided a screenshot from NS1 for comparison.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yea so there isnt a difference for the majority of players since only %15 of players are using a ratio that is arguably outdated. if its a view model it might be easier for a fix than if the camera is drawn inside the actual worldview model
here's where my disbelief came into effect i guess - theres actually LESS teeth visible in ns2 compared to ns1, as long as i dont use a 4:3 aspect ratio.
The superimposed image I posted before should pretty clearly show why, running in what looks like 16:9 you would barely see any NS1 teeth at all, as they would be cropped out of the image.
<!--quoteo(post=1884843:date=Nov 13 2011, 06:32 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 13 2011, 06:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884843"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I played a bit with the skulk code and it's not so easy to get a stable view, the ceiling geometry is really complicated, and you get a bit sick working on that with all the bugs. But it shouldn't be so hard to do at the end, so if you want AvP2-style wallwalk Khaze, you can implement it yourself (or maybe someone else will do a mod). The funny thing is how the map looks different from the ceiling, it's really hard to recognize anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks for the show. From my POV it looks less messy then it does in AvP2. You seem to be running over ledges with the view barely changeing.
<!--quoteo(post=1884865:date=Nov 13 2011, 11:53 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Nov 13 2011, 11:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884865"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The AVP style of wallwalking is alot more confusing than the NS style. And it is alot harder to use then the NS wallwalking. It would be a mistake to change that. It's not hard to wallwalk in NS or NS2, if you got trouble with it, it's simply a lack of skill. Yes, the geometry in some of the NS2 levels can make it a bit harder, because your wallwalking is dependent on your view angle. But it is possible to aquire the skill nessesary to avoid falling, and it is not too hard. And it is definitly better than the AVP style, which sometimes made you go in circles in vents, and make you totally disorientated. No need for change here, maybe just a need for practice?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As you said, it's not hard to wallwalk in NS or NS2. Is it a bad thing if wallwalking would be "harder" as you say an AvP style would be implemented? Once you master it and become used to the rotating you are more efficent at wallwalking. Going in circles in vents in AvP means that you're eighter not aiming straight in the vent or that you sidestep onto the sides. If you fail to avoid that, you could also hold the release wall button and all would be good...
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1884887:date=Nov 14 2011, 12:47 PM:name=Fluid Core)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fluid Core @ Nov 14 2011, 12:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884887"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As you said, it's not hard to wallwalk in NS or NS2. Is it a bad thing if wallwalking would be "harder" as you say an AvP style would be implemented? Once you master it and become used to the rotating you are more efficent at wallwalking. Going in circles in vents in AvP means that you're eighter not aiming straight in the vent or that you sidestep onto the sides. If you fail to avoid that, you could also hold the release wall button and all would be good...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My point exactly, it should not be hard to do, or learn. The NS version is way more efficent than the AVP version. Can't see a change like this do any good at all. Going in circles in vents in, lets say AVP2, is really frustrating, and sometimes they can be pretty hard getting into. Small spaces ###### you up really well in AVP2, even when you do aim "properly". Unless you uncling from the wall ofc., but then it's not wallwalking anymore. If you want bad wallwalking, go play AVP2 :) Would hate to see this mistake be made in NS2. Imagine wallwaking in the tight space of the cieling in pipe junction. Would be horrible in AVP style. The NS version is more clean, and alot easier to work around. That's a fact.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
i doubt that avp wall walking will ever come to ns. that's a design decision which was already made years ago and has proven to be the right choice to the devs and the majority of players.
i think it's the first time i'm posting in this thread, so sry if i ignore the rest of the topic here :)
Maybe just the mouth view model could turn around to illustrate that you're wall walking. Might give you a annoyingly small field of view to have the mouth model sideways on a 16.9 monitor though.
<!--quoteo(post=1884896:date=Nov 14 2011, 11:22 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Nov 14 2011, 11:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884896"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point exactly, it should not be hard to do, or learn. The NS version is way more efficent than the AVP version. Can't see a change like this do any good at all. Going in circles in vents in, lets say AVP2, is really frustrating, and sometimes they can be pretty hard getting into. Small spaces ###### you up really well in AVP2, even when you do aim "properly". Unless you uncling from the wall ofc., but then it's not wallwalking anymore. If you want bad wallwalking, go play AVP2 :) Would hate to see this mistake be made in NS2. Imagine wallwaking in the tight space of the cieling in pipe junction. Would be horrible in AVP style. The NS version is more clean, and alot easier to work around. That's a fact.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a Charles Darwin quote that goes:
“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.â€
Although I agree with some others that it should be selectable.. and I agree with you that it should stay the way it is.. if the people that would prefer the AvP style camera are better with it, so be it.. I would personally be able to use wall walking either way. In fact, I actually am indifferent to most things so some days I might want to use the AvP style camera because of the shear cool factor of it, although a lot of the reason that camera works in AvP is because you can do run-by swiping always looking in the same general area (+-20 degrees in one axis) for headshots (which are dynamic in that game) because they create their levels so that there's low ceilings purposely, to benefit aliens. In NS2, hallways have high ceilings because the maps are designed to incorporate the Onos, so run-by biting isn't really a viable attack.. you have to drop down and be exposed.. which is why I think skulks right now are simply too slow anyways because they only have their face to attack with - or parasite, in which case they give some clues to their whereabouts and just let the marines know that they will be encountered.. the player can just ask his comm to drop a scan, and the ambush-er becomes the ambushed..
I don't think a lot of people understand when to and when not to wall walk :\ a lot of the time I see people that are clearly spotted heading into an ambush spot (which means YOU SHOW UP ON ALL THE MARINES RADAR) just camp there anyways and wait to die.. giving the marine P-res and totally being a useless player in general.. if the AvP style camera would help them with some sort of confidence to attempt an attack that didn't make them totally useless, by all means, give them the option. However, the initial post I don't really agree with.. the excuse is so weak - I can look away from a wall without falling off. It's called strafing. You should try it some time.
<!--quoteo(post=1884900:date=Nov 14 2011, 03:43 PM:name=Forss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Forss @ Nov 14 2011, 03:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884900"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe just the mouth view model could turn around to illustrate that you're wall walking. Might give you a annoyingly small field of view to have the mouth model sideways on a 16.9 monitor though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like to see what that's like in-game, sounds like a nice idea to try.
I think the wallwalking is fine apart from the use of WASD detaching you. I think you should be required to press either jump or crouch in order to detach.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1884905:date=Nov 14 2011, 05:05 PM:name=Corpsey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corpsey @ Nov 14 2011, 05:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's a Charles Darwin quote that goes:
“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.â€<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I see what you're trying to do here. I'm not against change, I'm against bad changes. I played my part of AVP2, and the wallwalking is <i>really</i> horrible compared to NS. See my earlier arguments.
I don't think this would change how bad players play. It would only make them more confused and maybe even dizzy. And therefore even worse at playing the game. Sure it's a cool effect, and it looks more realistic, I will give you that. But it doesn't work gameplay wise. Especially not with the complex architecture we see in NS2 maps.
The viewmodel rotation idea could be interesting to try out, as long as the POV doesn't rotate. But then again, it might just look real bad. :P
<!--quoteo(post=1884896:date=Nov 14 2011, 04:22 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Nov 14 2011, 04:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884896"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point exactly, it should not be hard to do, or learn. The NS version is way more efficent than the AVP version.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Neighter version is hard to do or learn, but the AvP style is harder getting used to, and once mastered is more effective, for the same reason that it's easier to run on the floor in NS than on the ceiling/wall. It allows you to zap alot more smoothly from surface to surface and be a harder target for the marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1884896:date=Nov 14 2011, 04:22 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Nov 14 2011, 04:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884896"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Imagine wallwaking in the tight space of the cieling in pipe junction. Would be horrible in AVP style. The NS version is more clean, and alot easier to work around. That's a fact.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think view-rotation should be implemented -just- like in AvP2. As you mentioned, it got several flaws that make it hard to use. It would however be very strange if the general model (rotating camera) couldn't be improved to be less confusing and more smooth. For me, the effect that was hardest to deal with in AvP2 was that the camera didn't just rotate, but flipped if you walked over ledges. I think that just like you need to change your aim when running around a corner (unless you want to crab down the corridor..), you should need to change your aim to walk "up" a drop in the ceiling. This would make the view rotation pretty much happen due to strafing. To not make tiny ledges running alongside you rotate the camera strangely, just have the camera attached with the view model rotation. That way tiny ledges would just slightly tilt the vision.
Whatever happens, I'll work with what I'll get. I'd much prefer a rotating view however. It's alot more immersive and once mastered, more fluent and effective.
<!--quoteo(post=1884865:date=Nov 13 2011, 06:53 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Nov 13 2011, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884865"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The AVP style of wallwalking is alot more confusing than the NS style. And it is alot harder to use then the NS wallwalking. It would be a mistake to change that. It's not hard to wallwalk in NS or NS2, if you got trouble with it, it's simply a lack of skill. Yes, the geometry in some of the NS2 levels can make it a bit harder, because your wallwalking is dependent on your view angle. But it is possible to aquire the skill nessesary to avoid falling, and it is not too hard. And it is definitly better than the AVP style, which sometimes made you go in circles in vents, and make you totally disorientated. No need for change here, maybe just a need for practice?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
100% agree.
Btw I don't find the AvP system all that bad though, I beat the first one (PS3) in the hardest difficulty, with all the races.. not like that means anything.. but it's good practice because you have to be the utmost stealthy or you will be targeted with some mad DPS. Anyways it's like I said though I'm indifferent.... I would personally prefer it to be left the way it is and the only thing that really bothers me about skulk right now is that when you jump when you're near a wall, you don't have any upwards momentum sometimes.. your screen just pops. That bothers me more than having to navigate obstacles while wall walking.
<!--quoteo(post=1884950:date=Nov 14 2011, 08:12 PM:name=Fluid Core)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fluid Core @ Nov 14 2011, 08:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Neighter version is hard to do or learn, but the AvP style is harder getting used to, and once mastered is more effective, for the same reason that it's easier to run on the floor in NS than on the ceiling/wall. It allows you to zap alot more smoothly from surface to surface and be a harder target for the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think as long as the NS1 model can be adjusted for smoother corner turns and possibly some more efficient up/down movement there's no big difference what the styles can do once mastered. At least apart from the corners I can't think of many things I couldn't do efficiently in NS1.
In addition to being extremely comfortable with NS1 model already, I think the two main reasons I prefer the NS1 style are:
<ul>* Aiming ranged weapons (parasite, leap) is a lot easier when you don't have to worry your screen tilting to some weird angle due to geometry.
* The rotating view really has to be done properly if the devs decide to go there and there's already more than enough on the to-do list. At that point I see the well explored and probably more robust NS1 concept as a good pick that lets the devs focus on fine tuning the rest of the gameplay.</li></ul>
Also depending on the implementation and design decisions things like air curve might also be more 'natural' to control with NS1 style wallwalk. You probably don't want to have your screen rotate when you drop from the ceiling and want to execute a smooth mouse movement to control your fall.
<!--quoteo(post=1884956:date=Nov 14 2011, 10:04 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Nov 14 2011, 10:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884956"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In addition to being extremely comfortable with NS1 model already, I think the two main reasons I prefer the NS1 style are:
<ul>* Aiming ranged weapons (parasite, leap) is a lot easier when you don't have to worry your screen tilting to some weird angle due to geometry.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the aim would just rotate around your aiming axis (your screen would "spin"), then you would aim at exactly the same point regardless of rotation.
<!--quoteo(post=1884956:date=Nov 14 2011, 10:04 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Nov 14 2011, 10:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884956"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul>* The rotating view really has to be done properly if the devs decide to go there and there's already more than enough on the to-do list. At that point I see the well explored and probably more robust NS1 concept as a good pick that lets the devs focus on fine tuning the rest of the gameplay.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair point, and actually the best point against it that I've yet to hear. Perhaps I should learn some lua and try to make a mod instead :)
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1884967:date=Nov 14 2011, 05:34 PM:name=Fluid Core)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fluid Core @ Nov 14 2011, 05:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps I should learn some lua and try to make a mod instead :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
do it. ill test for you incessantly. i LOVE the AvP method. (played every game) personally find it more visceral, more involved, and requiring slightly more skill. all things i love. just smooth that "view snapping" that occurs, and also never ever limit viewing speeds / mouselook changes to model animation timings. (drove me nuts in latest avp)
Another limitation of the current wall walk is you lose a considerable amount of agility - if you are stuck to a wall and facing the horizontal plane there is no way to strafe up or down - your only choices are to walk forwards, backwards or off the wall. AvP avoided this problem as your control scheme stays the same through any orientation. I don't recall the NS1 control implementation but a wall stick button would should allow you to gain back most of your agility.
Of course, this only applies if wall walk is meant to be a routine method of combat for skulks, rather than only used to get to the vents and create ambushes.
You don't have some silly tilted angle which causes you to weirdly protrude off the surface. You don't automatically stick to anything within about 8 units vicinity causing your model to flip out and show weird angles from the 3rd/1st perspective. The skulk is faster and when you press jump you fly off the wall. That's about it for difference.
<!--quoteo(post=1884975:date=Nov 15 2011, 03:04 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Nov 15 2011, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884975"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->do it. ill test for you incessantly. i LOVE the AvP method. (played every game) personally find it more visceral, more involved, and requiring slightly more skill. all things i love. just smooth that "view snapping" that occurs, and also never ever limit viewing speeds / mouselook changes to model animation timings. (drove me nuts in latest avp)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anyone know a good introduction to lua? I didn't find any sticky on the modding forum or so... I'll look into it when I get some spare time :)
Comments
In NS2 FOV is set from the horizontal and then the vertical is scaled to your aspect, here is a screen I took in 4:3. The red box is what you see in 16:10 and the blue box is what you see in 16:9. I have provided a screenshot from NS1 for comparison.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally I hope they change this as I need to run it at 4:3 on my 16:10 monitor as the FOV I get on my native resolution makes me feel sick.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think they can actually do anything to fix that apart from increase total FOV. If they switched to a vertical FOV setting like a lot of modern games, it simply results in 4:3 aspect having reduced horizontal rather than increased vertical.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/5lyvM.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/CfAPy.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Superimposed
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/YVfXA.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I understand there are issues with allowing certain people to see more of the screen, but as long as there's a limit on the range of FOV then I think it's fair. It seems silly to reduce what people running widescreen monitors can see when the vast majority have them. According to the steam survey only about 15-20% are running 4:3 resolutions, with the rest running either 16:9 or 16:10. IMO if you are running 4:3 as your native res then you should see less horizontally - you can always run a widescreen resolution and have black bars if you really want the extra space.
If they leave it as it currently is then it just makes people like me run 4:3 resolutions on widesceen monitors in order to get the extra FOV. I'd much rather run at my native res but if I do it feels like it's constantly zoomed in.
Well it seems silly to penalise the vast majority of players just because a small minority wont get to see a little extra on the side of the screen. Why should the aspect ratio that displays the default FOV correctly be 4:3? It makes far more sense to have the default FOV work with the most popular aspect ratio (16:9, I think) and then cut off a small amount of horizontal space for the others. That way all of the players can play the game with the intended FOV and only a small number have a slight disadvantage, rather than most having a zoomed in look with a small number playing with the correct FOV.
I guess the argument is that if everyone sees the exact same amount of horizontal space then it's fair. IMO it's a far bigger disadvantage to have a decreased FOV than it is to have a little space cut off.
It's not really to do with seeing more horizontal or vertical space. When I play with a low FOV it makes me feel sick and it's difficult to orientate as it feels like I'm playing with zoom constantly turned on. TF2 and many other multiplayer FPS games allow you to change the FOV and give you more horizontal viewing space when running at widescreen resolutions. I don't really think it's a big deal.
As I said before, I do run with black bars at the moment (horizontal) :(
yea so there isnt a difference for the majority of players since only %15 of players are using a ratio that is arguably outdated. if its a view model it might be easier for a fix than if the camera is drawn inside the actual worldview model
here's where my disbelief came into effect i guess - theres actually LESS teeth visible in ns2 compared to ns1, as long as i dont use a 4:3 aspect ratio.
for comparison's sake:
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/1u1vT.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
also good read:
<a href="http://strlen.com/gfxengine/fisheyequake/compare.html" target="_blank">http://strlen.com/gfxengine/fisheyequake/compare.html</a>
The funny thing is how the map looks different from the ceiling, it's really hard to recognize anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the show. From my POV it looks less messy then it does in AvP2. You seem to be running over ledges with the view barely changeing.
<!--quoteo(post=1884865:date=Nov 13 2011, 11:53 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Nov 13 2011, 11:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884865"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The AVP style of wallwalking is alot more confusing than the NS style. And it is alot harder to use then the NS wallwalking.
It would be a mistake to change that. It's not hard to wallwalk in NS or NS2, if you got trouble with it, it's simply a lack of skill.
Yes, the geometry in some of the NS2 levels can make it a bit harder, because your wallwalking is dependent on your view angle.
But it is possible to aquire the skill nessesary to avoid falling, and it is not too hard.
And it is definitly better than the AVP style, which sometimes made you go in circles in vents, and make you totally disorientated.
No need for change here, maybe just a need for practice?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As you said, it's not hard to wallwalk in NS or NS2. Is it a bad thing if wallwalking would be "harder" as you say an AvP style would be implemented? Once you master it and become used to the rotating you are more efficent at wallwalking. Going in circles in vents in AvP means that you're eighter not aiming straight in the vent or that you sidestep onto the sides. If you fail to avoid that, you could also hold the release wall button and all would be good...
My point exactly, it should not be hard to do, or learn.
The NS version is way more efficent than the AVP version. Can't see a change like this do any good at all.
Going in circles in vents in, lets say AVP2, is really frustrating, and sometimes they can be pretty hard getting into.
Small spaces ###### you up really well in AVP2, even when you do aim "properly".
Unless you uncling from the wall ofc., but then it's not wallwalking anymore.
If you want bad wallwalking, go play AVP2 :)
Would hate to see this mistake be made in NS2.
Imagine wallwaking in the tight space of the cieling in pipe junction. Would be horrible in AVP style.
The NS version is more clean, and alot easier to work around. That's a fact.
i think it's the first time i'm posting in this thread, so sry if i ignore the rest of the topic here :)
The NS version is way more efficent than the AVP version. Can't see a change like this do any good at all.
Going in circles in vents in, lets say AVP2, is really frustrating, and sometimes they can be pretty hard getting into.
Small spaces ###### you up really well in AVP2, even when you do aim "properly".
Unless you uncling from the wall ofc., but then it's not wallwalking anymore.
If you want bad wallwalking, go play AVP2 :)
Would hate to see this mistake be made in NS2.
Imagine wallwaking in the tight space of the cieling in pipe junction. Would be horrible in AVP style.
The NS version is more clean, and alot easier to work around. That's a fact.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a Charles Darwin quote that goes:
“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.â€
Although I agree with some others that it should be selectable.. and I agree with you that it should stay the way it is.. if the people that would prefer the AvP style camera are better with it, so be it.. I would personally be able to use wall walking either way. In fact, I actually am indifferent to most things so some days I might want to use the AvP style camera because of the shear cool factor of it, although a lot of the reason that camera works in AvP is because you can do run-by swiping always looking in the same general area (+-20 degrees in one axis) for headshots (which are dynamic in that game) because they create their levels so that there's low ceilings purposely, to benefit aliens. In NS2, hallways have high ceilings because the maps are designed to incorporate the Onos, so run-by biting isn't really a viable attack.. you have to drop down and be exposed.. which is why I think skulks right now are simply too slow anyways because they only have their face to attack with - or parasite, in which case they give some clues to their whereabouts and just let the marines know that they will be encountered.. the player can just ask his comm to drop a scan, and the ambush-er becomes the ambushed..
I don't think a lot of people understand when to and when not to wall walk :\ a lot of the time I see people that are clearly spotted heading into an ambush spot (which means YOU SHOW UP ON ALL THE MARINES RADAR) just camp there anyways and wait to die.. giving the marine P-res and totally being a useless player in general.. if the AvP style camera would help them with some sort of confidence to attempt an attack that didn't make them totally useless, by all means, give them the option. However, the initial post I don't really agree with.. the excuse is so weak - I can look away from a wall without falling off. It's called strafing. You should try it some time.
I'd like to see what that's like in-game, sounds like a nice idea to try.
I think the wallwalking is fine apart from the use of WASD detaching you. I think you should be required to press either jump or crouch in order to detach.
“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.â€<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see what you're trying to do here.
I'm not against change, I'm against bad changes.
I played my part of AVP2, and the wallwalking is <i>really</i> horrible compared to NS.
See my earlier arguments.
I don't think this would change how bad players play. It would only make them more confused and maybe even dizzy. And therefore even worse at playing the game.
Sure it's a cool effect, and it looks more realistic, I will give you that. But it doesn't work gameplay wise.
Especially not with the complex architecture we see in NS2 maps.
The viewmodel rotation idea could be interesting to try out, as long as the POV doesn't rotate.
But then again, it might just look real bad. :P
The NS version is way more efficent than the AVP version.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Neighter version is hard to do or learn, but the AvP style is harder getting used to, and once mastered is more effective, for the same reason that it's easier to run on the floor in NS than on the ceiling/wall. It allows you to zap alot more smoothly from surface to surface and be a harder target for the marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1884896:date=Nov 14 2011, 04:22 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Nov 14 2011, 04:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884896"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Imagine wallwaking in the tight space of the cieling in pipe junction. Would be horrible in AVP style.
The NS version is more clean, and alot easier to work around. That's a fact.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think view-rotation should be implemented -just- like in AvP2. As you mentioned, it got several flaws that make it hard to use. It would however be very strange if the general model (rotating camera) couldn't be improved to be less confusing and more smooth.
For me, the effect that was hardest to deal with in AvP2 was that the camera didn't just rotate, but flipped if you walked over ledges. I think that just like you need to change your aim when running around a corner (unless you want to crab down the corridor..), you should need to change your aim to walk "up" a drop in the ceiling. This would make the view rotation pretty much happen due to strafing. To not make tiny ledges running alongside you rotate the camera strangely, just have the camera attached with the view model rotation. That way tiny ledges would just slightly tilt the vision.
Whatever happens, I'll work with what I'll get. I'd much prefer a rotating view however. It's alot more immersive and once mastered, more fluent and effective.
It would be a mistake to change that. It's not hard to wallwalk in NS or NS2, if you got trouble with it, it's simply a lack of skill.
Yes, the geometry in some of the NS2 levels can make it a bit harder, because your wallwalking is dependent on your view angle.
But it is possible to aquire the skill nessesary to avoid falling, and it is not too hard.
And it is definitly better than the AVP style, which sometimes made you go in circles in vents, and make you totally disorientated.
No need for change here, maybe just a need for practice?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
100% agree.
Btw I don't find the AvP system all that bad though, I beat the first one (PS3) in the hardest difficulty, with all the races.. not like that means anything.. but it's good practice because you have to be the utmost stealthy or you will be targeted with some mad DPS. Anyways it's like I said though I'm indifferent.... I would personally prefer it to be left the way it is and the only thing that really bothers me about skulk right now is that when you jump when you're near a wall, you don't have any upwards momentum sometimes.. your screen just pops. That bothers me more than having to navigate obstacles while wall walking.
I think as long as the NS1 model can be adjusted for smoother corner turns and possibly some more efficient up/down movement there's no big difference what the styles can do once mastered. At least apart from the corners I can't think of many things I couldn't do efficiently in NS1.
In addition to being extremely comfortable with NS1 model already, I think the two main reasons I prefer the NS1 style are:
<ul>* Aiming ranged weapons (parasite, leap) is a lot easier when you don't have to worry your screen tilting to some weird angle due to geometry.
* The rotating view really has to be done properly if the devs decide to go there and there's already more than enough on the to-do list. At that point I see the well explored and probably more robust NS1 concept as a good pick that lets the devs focus on fine tuning the rest of the gameplay.</li></ul>
Also depending on the implementation and design decisions things like air curve might also be more 'natural' to control with NS1 style wallwalk. You probably don't want to have your screen rotate when you drop from the ceiling and want to execute a smooth mouse movement to control your fall.
<ul>* Aiming ranged weapons (parasite, leap) is a lot easier when you don't have to worry your screen tilting to some weird angle due to geometry.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the aim would just rotate around your aiming axis (your screen would "spin"), then you would aim at exactly the same point regardless of rotation.
<!--quoteo(post=1884956:date=Nov 14 2011, 10:04 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Nov 14 2011, 10:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884956"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul>* The rotating view really has to be done properly if the devs decide to go there and there's already more than enough on the to-do list. At that point I see the well explored and probably more robust NS1 concept as a good pick that lets the devs focus on fine tuning the rest of the gameplay.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair point, and actually the best point against it that I've yet to hear. Perhaps I should learn some lua and try to make a mod instead :)
do it. ill test for you incessantly.
i LOVE the AvP method. (played every game)
personally find it more visceral, more involved, and requiring slightly more skill. all things i love.
just smooth that "view snapping" that occurs, and also never ever limit viewing speeds / mouselook changes to model animation timings. (drove me nuts in latest avp)
Of course, this only applies if wall walk is meant to be a routine method of combat for skulks, rather than only used to get to the vents and create ambushes.
(I haven't played it for years)
i LOVE the AvP method. (played every game)
personally find it more visceral, more involved, and requiring slightly more skill. all things i love.
just smooth that "view snapping" that occurs, and also never ever limit viewing speeds / mouselook changes to model animation timings. (drove me nuts in latest avp)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anyone know a good introduction to lua? I didn't find any sticky on the modding forum or so... I'll look into it when I get some spare time :)