<div class="IPBDescription">what is it?</div>So what is the whip's bombard ability? I have never got it to work right. What does it do and how do you use it?
<!--quoteo(post=1884292:date=Nov 8 2011, 05:07 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Nov 8 2011, 05:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884292"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Whip can be upgraded to a "Mature" Whip, which adds a bombard-style attack. The structure forms and grows glowing balls of acidic goo, that it coils its tentacle body tightly around, until given a command to hurl its deadly projectile at Commander selected targets. The acid ball explodes on impact and has a splash damage area effect. All the abilities use energy which replenishes over time. In addition to new abilities, mature versions of alien upgrade structures have a higher maximum energy and more health.
The whip was actually designed around the bombard feature, and the melee aspect was added later. Basically, when the whip has been upgraded to a mature whip, it would form a ball of acidic goo, that it then throws at marine structures. The ball explodes on impact and does a lot of splash damage over a large area.
This is the initial concept and render of the whip with the ball.
I'm really interested in how the projectile physics are going to be implemented. I can see how having a longer range could be difficult to make look natural, but I really hope the khamm's artillery piece has some decent range.
The whip seems too weak and slow to be used effectively with the more hit/run lifeforms. I can see how putting a shielding onos in could make for some very interesting teamplay and make the whip effective. I so want to see what a full tech battle in a long game is going to look like.
<!--quoteo(post=1884354:date=Nov 9 2011, 03:07 AM:name=thefonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (thefonz @ Nov 9 2011, 03:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884354"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->big draw back, you have to infest right up to the marine base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It was mentioned in the Design Decision Log thread that the Whip would not require infestation to survive, or at least it would be able to survive off of it for much longer then other structures, to allow it to travel to marine areas where the aliens haven't infested.
Does this mean the Gorge has to lose its bile-bomb ability?
It'd be sad to see the Gorge's anti-structure role go, would it really upset the game balance that greatly if both the Gorge and the Whip had similar anti-structure abilities?
hmm, It would be interesting to see if the whip can attack while uprooted... that seems to be the only way to make it useful... especially in an attack against marine structures.
I know, it's like the arc, but the whip is so much slower, that it kinda needs to be able to suddenly attack.
Would the whip be better categorised as a "deployable unit" instead of a "structure"?
Would/should that prevent ARCs from targeting it? Would 2 hostile deployed ARCs target each other? Depending on what the reasoning is for why ARCs don't attack lifeforms, there might be a lore-friendly way to side-stepping the ARC issue.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1884402:date=Nov 9 2011, 01:52 PM:name=ZycaR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ZycaR @ Nov 9 2011, 01:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884402"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=113258&view=findpost&p=1884404" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1884404</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I rather like this suggestion.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
I really don't understand how the whip is supposed to be able to do anything to a marine base, unless you think the marines there are going to be sitting there staring at it, maybe twiddling their thumbs, while it takes down their structures?
Please leave bile bomb as a gorge ability... regardless of what the original vision of the whip was... doesn't mean it is practical in game play. =/
The amount of control the alien comm has on directing the bombard ability is frustrating. The gorge is much more mobile, able to peak around a corner, and all this while around his buddies... It is a lot harder to coordinate the same thing with a whip+comm, and the whip is very restricted in movement and with its ability to aim... just don't...
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
almost every ability given to a player instead to a control able AI unit is stronger (except of hitscan stuff :X), who knows how the gorge would be changed if bilebomb gets really removed? (i don't know, it's not final) so, you are only reading "thinking about removing bilebomb" in the design log. that line is for sure not written there because the gorge requires a nerf, but a change... im sure once the ideas are mature enough charlie will share them with everyone and feeback will be welcome. until then, discussing a possible bilebomb change makes not much sense. that line in the design log means only that some more drastical changes should / will be made.
We have given this more thought, and I believe Charlie is not going to remove the bile bomb, just change it to differentiate it more from the Whip.
So, for example, the Gorge bilebomb would have a smaller area of effect, and mainly it would be used to target one specific structure, and it would do damage over time. As in the gorge could pop his head around the corner and fire off a shot, then duck out of site again, while the goo covers the structure and eats away at it.
The Whip would have a very large area of effect with large splash damage, so that it could hit multiple targets at once. It also would probably be able to target the ground, so even if the structures aren't in the direct LOS of the Whip a commander could shoot it around corners at the ground or wall it could still do splash damage to the structures in the room.
That was just from the last discussion I had with him, he may have different ideas at this point, so take this with a grain of salt.
I like the idea of the Gorge having a DoT vs Structures. This would really help make the gorge a great support class. I had mentioned in another thread that being able to shoot/throw mini-cysts and other structures would be really great. This sludge DoT concept would fit well with the DI growing abilities of the gorge. I'd suggest just giving DI growth a DoT affect vs structures. This would enable a gorge to shoot a distracting mini-cyst into a marine emplacement to do some DoT as well as sow some panic. It would cause turrets to possibly target the cyst as well, allowing other lifeforms or whips to make a decisive strike.
Either way, I really am excited to see the gorge get some cool DoT and other 'spells'.
<!--quoteo(post=1884374:date=Nov 9 2011, 07:20 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Nov 9 2011, 07:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884374"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was mentioned in the Design Decision Log thread that the Whip would not require infestation to survive, or at least it would be able to survive off of it for much longer then other structures, to allow it to travel to marine areas where the aliens haven't infested.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It still means they have to get direct LOS to marine structures in order to bombard them, which kind of makes whips a slow, fragile, expensive, support-heavy, micro-intensive, probably not very effective siege unit.
If whips are going to be siege units, they need more health, to move faster, to root-unroot automatically, to be entirely independent of infestation, and to be capable of bombaring a room through the doorway. Someone made a nice mod as I recall which basically made whips throw bouncy bombs into rooms, that bounced all over and filled the room with explosions, that'd be a useful ability.
it sounds like they don't know what to do with whips generally. And I can understand that, its the only chamber which doesn't feel like it belongs in ns2 environment. It sure looks nice, and the idea of it is good but in gameplay wise it just doesn't work. I believe the whip itself aside from bombard ability must be redesigned.
whips are extremely easy to kill, hard to control and cost more resources then they worth. I can't see myself wanting to upgrade the chamber which will die easily anyway, waste of res.
Now, lets talk about how we can design new chamber or if that fails I rather see this chamber removed then ruin gameplay experience or make it more complicated then it should be.
allow whips to be rooted under the infestation, this will offer them protection allow whips to attack players when they come within whip range, but retract themselves back under the infestation if player moves scan would reveal their location whips must come with bombard ability already, no upgrading required while the whip is rooted under the infestation, its range is increased within the infestation
infestation needs to play bigger role within the aliens, it has to offer strong boosts to aliens and their buildings
Why should the Whip even be a siege unit in the first place? The gorge already fills the role the ARC has while being suitably distinct, and we are missing an area-damage defence in the game, so if the blob the Whip tosses hurt players we'd be all set...?
Or is the idea that the commanders need to be able to direct the siege efforts manually?
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1884798:date=Nov 13 2011, 12:15 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Nov 13 2011, 12:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884798"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why should the Whip even be a siege unit in the first place? The gorge already fills the role the ARC has while being suitably distinct, and we are missing an area-damage defence in the game, so if the blob the Whip tosses hurt players we'd be all set...?
Or is the idea that the commanders need to be able to direct the siege efforts manually?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Looks like they're desperately trying to come up with something -- anything -- for the alien comm to do. Right now there's barely anything, so you either sit there twiddling your thumbs half the game or jump in and out every minute or so. I wonder how long it's going to take them to realize the alien comm was a bad idea to begin with.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited November 2011
everyone's already said what i have to say about the whip -<b> it can <i>not </i>match the ARC in any way, mostly due to LOS</b>
so why not make it's bombard ball more like an anti personnel grenade? so that it has a long range and short range (whipping) attack for area denial?
and leave the beloved bombard ability to the belly sliding gorge, possibly with some form of umbra to temporarily protect him as he ducks in and out of marine controlled areas.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1884798:date=Nov 12 2011, 03:15 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Nov 12 2011, 03:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884798"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why should the Whip even be a siege unit in the first place? The gorge already fills the role the ARC has while being suitably distinct, and we are missing an area-damage defence in the game, so if the blob the Whip tosses hurt players we'd be all set...?
Or is the idea that the commanders need to be able to direct the siege efforts manually?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the grenade launcher is the better analogy than the ARC to the gorge bilebomb.
I also think the whip-alien siege weapon is going to run into the same problem as the ARC, namely that it will not be very effective unless spammed. The only time I've seen ARCs do something that a GL rush couldn't do have been when the marine comm builds 10+ of them and suicides them at an alien hive. The ARCs will die, but they usually can take down (or seriously damage) entrenched hives.
I'd rather just see bilebomb buffed to be as effective as the grenade launcher in taking down structures.
If it is true they don't know what to do with the alien commander, and if it is also true that the gorge requires much more to do. I see a very pleasing solution to all this for us NS1 vets..................................... DOT DOT DOT.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Whip bombard needs to work more like babblers so that it can hit something without LOS. Even if you let the whip survive off infestation and buff the speed by 500%, it's still not going to be that effective. Imagine how useless ARCs would be if you needed LOS. That's how the whip bombard will be without major changes.
Comments
Not sure what the deal is with this currently.
Source: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Bombard" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Bombard</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The ability would be more useful if the whip would automatically lob goo at a marine though.
This is the initial concept and render of the whip with the ball.
[attachment=36022:WhipBombard.jpg]
--Cory
The whip seems too weak and slow to be used effectively with the more hit/run lifeforms. I can see how putting a shielding onos in could make for some very interesting teamplay and make the whip effective. I so want to see what a full tech battle in a long game is going to look like.
It was mentioned in the Design Decision Log thread that the Whip would not require infestation to survive, or at least it would be able to survive off of it for much longer then other structures, to allow it to travel to marine areas where the aliens haven't infested.
--Cory
It'd be sad to see the Gorge's anti-structure role go, would it really upset the game balance that greatly if both the Gorge and the Whip had similar anti-structure abilities?
I know, it's like the arc, but the whip is so much slower, that it kinda needs to be able to suddenly attack.
Would/should that prevent ARCs from targeting it? Would 2 hostile deployed ARCs target each other? Depending on what the reasoning is for why ARCs don't attack lifeforms, there might be a lore-friendly way to side-stepping the ARC issue.
I rather like this suggestion.
The amount of control the alien comm has on directing the bombard ability is frustrating. The gorge is much more mobile, able to peak around a corner, and all this while around his buddies... It is a lot harder to coordinate the same thing with a whip+comm, and the whip is very restricted in movement and with its ability to aim... just don't...
So, for example, the Gorge bilebomb would have a smaller area of effect, and mainly it would be used to target one specific structure, and it would do damage over time. As in the gorge could pop his head around the corner and fire off a shot, then duck out of site again, while the goo covers the structure and eats away at it.
The Whip would have a very large area of effect with large splash damage, so that it could hit multiple targets at once. It also would probably be able to target the ground, so even if the structures aren't in the direct LOS of the Whip a commander could shoot it around corners at the ground or wall it could still do splash damage to the structures in the room.
That was just from the last discussion I had with him, he may have different ideas at this point, so take this with a grain of salt.
--Cory
Either way, I really am excited to see the gorge get some cool DoT and other 'spells'.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It still means they have to get direct LOS to marine structures in order to bombard them, which kind of makes whips a slow, fragile, expensive, support-heavy, micro-intensive, probably not very effective siege unit.
If whips are going to be siege units, they need more health, to move faster, to root-unroot automatically, to be entirely independent of infestation, and to be capable of bombaring a room through the doorway. Someone made a nice mod as I recall which basically made whips throw bouncy bombs into rooms, that bounced all over and filled the room with explosions, that'd be a useful ability.
whips are extremely easy to kill, hard to control and cost more resources then they worth. I can't see myself wanting to upgrade the chamber which will die easily anyway, waste of res.
Now, lets talk about how we can design new chamber or if that fails I rather see this chamber removed then ruin gameplay experience or make it more complicated then it should be.
allow whips to be rooted under the infestation, this will offer them protection
allow whips to attack players when they come within whip range, but retract themselves back under the infestation if player moves
scan would reveal their location
whips must come with bombard ability already, no upgrading required
while the whip is rooted under the infestation, its range is increased within the infestation
infestation needs to play bigger role within the aliens, it has to offer strong boosts to aliens and their buildings
Or is the idea that the commanders need to be able to direct the siege efforts manually?
Or is the idea that the commanders need to be able to direct the siege efforts manually?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Looks like they're desperately trying to come up with something -- anything -- for the alien comm to do. Right now there's barely anything, so you either sit there twiddling your thumbs half the game or jump in and out every minute or so. I wonder how long it's going to take them to realize the alien comm was a bad idea to begin with.
so why not make it's bombard ball more like an anti personnel grenade? so that it has a long range and short range (whipping) attack for area denial?
and leave the beloved bombard ability to the belly sliding gorge, possibly with some form of umbra to temporarily protect him as he ducks in and out of marine controlled areas.
i would like that!
I would like that too, that should give the Whip some siege/distraction ability if Babbler AI isn't too shabby.
Or is the idea that the commanders need to be able to direct the siege efforts manually?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the grenade launcher is the better analogy than the ARC to the gorge bilebomb.
I also think the whip-alien siege weapon is going to run into the same problem as the ARC, namely that it will not be very effective unless spammed. The only time I've seen ARCs do something that a GL rush couldn't do have been when the marine comm builds 10+ of them and suicides them at an alien hive. The ARCs will die, but they usually can take down (or seriously damage) entrenched hives.
I'd rather just see bilebomb buffed to be as effective as the grenade launcher in taking down structures.
The whip is a load of crap.
If it is true they don't know what to do with the alien commander, and if it is also true that the gorge requires much more to do. I see a very pleasing solution to all this for us NS1 vets..................................... DOT DOT DOT.