Hive rush ?
Candide
Join Date: 2011-06-28 Member: 106766Members
Join Date: 2011-06-28 Member: 106766Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Discussing the interest of a very fast 2nd hive</div>Hello everyone,
my pseudo is Candide and I'm an old NS1 player. I'm very excited about NS2 so far, and really pleased that the developers let the community take a part of the building of NS2 by making this alpha version available and playable.
Due to fps performances I can't really yet play in a pseudo-competitive level (I know improvements are coming), and thus decided yet not trying to join a clan. But public games are difficult to play as (and against) a real team and it's hard to test strategies, that's why I mainly just watch videos from clan matches I can find on the web.
It seems that the alien team always start by taking one or two resource nodes and upgrade a little, and then save for a second hive, at a time when marines have easy access of Shotguns or even Grenade Launchers sometimes, making the defence of that growing hive not an easy task.
I'm starting this thread to discuss the possibility to rush the second hive.
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<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Facts:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
- Teams begin with 50 team resources
- A hive costs 50 team resources
- A hive takes about 3 min to grow today
- A harvester gives 1 team resource every 8 seconds
- A harvester gives 1 personal resource every 32 seconds
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Proposition:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Let's say the alien commander puts all his starting resources in a second hive in the first seconds of the game. The hive will probably end before marines can destroy it (or maybe even discover it, as it's not an habitual strategy). But what is the advantage of a second hive if the players can't even become fades because of lack of resources ?
- A position with a hive already build is way easier to defend:
* The hive regenerates aliens, making the loss of a gorge less awkward
* The infestation reduce marines' movement making them easier to catch
* Dead aliens can directly spawn at this advanced hive, gaining a bunch of time
* The alien commander can be closer and jump off the hive to defend it too
- A second hive makes harassing way more efficient
- Skulk lifeform gains leap (this is huge)
- A second hive gives a huge amount of energy:
* Three drifters less to make because of the free ones
* Double the energy for infestation and gaining rapidly heavy map control and new harvesters (and recovering from marines' pushes)
- As soon as a player reaches 50 res (don't forget that kills give resources), no need for a "hive operation" to let him fading. He can do it right away.
Then, we should take in consideration the cons of this rushed hive :
- No early harvester and 50 tres in a hive means no huge amount of resources, meaning:
* no melee 1 upgrade (making killing marines harder)
* all resources are precious, this means that if someone lerks or gorges, he or she should be very conservative
* very high risk high reward strategy, meaning the more the other team is surprised, the more it's efficient, but if the marines figure it out (or just are too good at aiming), it will be a flop and a quasi-sure loss for the alien team. But the whole game plan presented here is thought to minimize all the risks.
Please note that those cons only exist during the first 4-5 minutes of the game.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Game plan:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Of course, an alien team should never be all-in a strategy. That's why an early game plan is essential to this hive rush:
- To defend this hive early, a major part of the team should cover it and deny all marine progression in this part of the map. With a 6-player team, I would say 3 skulks should go in the location of the growing hive, and harass the nearest marine extractor to gain as much time as possible. Meanwhile, the alien commander having no team resources to spend, he can easily leave the main hive to put some infestation and one hydra (and soon a second hydra) in the second hive room.
- Having a gorge there helps defending the position (with the hydras and heal spray) but also simply makes available a healing point way ahead on the battlefield before the hive ends.
- As soon as the team gets 10 team resources, a dead skulk can easily jump in the hive and get a harvester between the two hives, then leave it and go again in combat harassing the marines. And as soon as the team gets another 10 team resources, the same process should be done the the second hive harvester (don't forget there is a gorge there to help).
- When the hive is fully grown, the gorge can take his place again in the new hive. The state of the alien territory : 2 hives fully grown and 3 extractors, all of this in ~3 minutes since the beginning of the game.
- Meanwhile, the rest of the team (in my example it would be 2 skulks) was dedicated at running across the rest of the map to hunt marines and destroy other side's extractors. Sure, it may not be enough in one or two waves. But their role being dedicated to harass marines, I'm not talking about few waves, but coordinates attacks over and over during the first 3 or 4 minutes.
This is a very aggressive strategy and should be perceived like it. The main objective is to distract marines during the first minutes of the game. As soon as the hive ended, the commander jumps again in the new hive an starts expanding harvesters and making upgrades. The alien team then should be able to have an advanced map control leading to the victory, or at least a really good start.
Please also note that with this heavy harassment strategy, skulks should gain a lot of personal resources killing marines, balancing in a way (not entirely, but still a little) the lack of early harvesters. It will be even better if the team coordinates to let the same skulk kill a maximum of marines, making him the quickest fade ever grown =).
Of course, as soon as the hive is fully grown, the whole early-game strategy stops and the game plan should be rearranged according the marines' situation.
---------
What are you thinking? Have you already tested this? If so how was it?
If you have videos to share featuring this strategy (winning or losing, whatever), you're welcome.
Thanks for reading, and let's discuss!
my pseudo is Candide and I'm an old NS1 player. I'm very excited about NS2 so far, and really pleased that the developers let the community take a part of the building of NS2 by making this alpha version available and playable.
Due to fps performances I can't really yet play in a pseudo-competitive level (I know improvements are coming), and thus decided yet not trying to join a clan. But public games are difficult to play as (and against) a real team and it's hard to test strategies, that's why I mainly just watch videos from clan matches I can find on the web.
It seems that the alien team always start by taking one or two resource nodes and upgrade a little, and then save for a second hive, at a time when marines have easy access of Shotguns or even Grenade Launchers sometimes, making the defence of that growing hive not an easy task.
I'm starting this thread to discuss the possibility to rush the second hive.
---------
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Facts:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
- Teams begin with 50 team resources
- A hive costs 50 team resources
- A hive takes about 3 min to grow today
- A harvester gives 1 team resource every 8 seconds
- A harvester gives 1 personal resource every 32 seconds
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Proposition:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Let's say the alien commander puts all his starting resources in a second hive in the first seconds of the game. The hive will probably end before marines can destroy it (or maybe even discover it, as it's not an habitual strategy). But what is the advantage of a second hive if the players can't even become fades because of lack of resources ?
- A position with a hive already build is way easier to defend:
* The hive regenerates aliens, making the loss of a gorge less awkward
* The infestation reduce marines' movement making them easier to catch
* Dead aliens can directly spawn at this advanced hive, gaining a bunch of time
* The alien commander can be closer and jump off the hive to defend it too
- A second hive makes harassing way more efficient
- Skulk lifeform gains leap (this is huge)
- A second hive gives a huge amount of energy:
* Three drifters less to make because of the free ones
* Double the energy for infestation and gaining rapidly heavy map control and new harvesters (and recovering from marines' pushes)
- As soon as a player reaches 50 res (don't forget that kills give resources), no need for a "hive operation" to let him fading. He can do it right away.
Then, we should take in consideration the cons of this rushed hive :
- No early harvester and 50 tres in a hive means no huge amount of resources, meaning:
* no melee 1 upgrade (making killing marines harder)
* all resources are precious, this means that if someone lerks or gorges, he or she should be very conservative
* very high risk high reward strategy, meaning the more the other team is surprised, the more it's efficient, but if the marines figure it out (or just are too good at aiming), it will be a flop and a quasi-sure loss for the alien team. But the whole game plan presented here is thought to minimize all the risks.
Please note that those cons only exist during the first 4-5 minutes of the game.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Game plan:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Of course, an alien team should never be all-in a strategy. That's why an early game plan is essential to this hive rush:
- To defend this hive early, a major part of the team should cover it and deny all marine progression in this part of the map. With a 6-player team, I would say 3 skulks should go in the location of the growing hive, and harass the nearest marine extractor to gain as much time as possible. Meanwhile, the alien commander having no team resources to spend, he can easily leave the main hive to put some infestation and one hydra (and soon a second hydra) in the second hive room.
- Having a gorge there helps defending the position (with the hydras and heal spray) but also simply makes available a healing point way ahead on the battlefield before the hive ends.
- As soon as the team gets 10 team resources, a dead skulk can easily jump in the hive and get a harvester between the two hives, then leave it and go again in combat harassing the marines. And as soon as the team gets another 10 team resources, the same process should be done the the second hive harvester (don't forget there is a gorge there to help).
- When the hive is fully grown, the gorge can take his place again in the new hive. The state of the alien territory : 2 hives fully grown and 3 extractors, all of this in ~3 minutes since the beginning of the game.
- Meanwhile, the rest of the team (in my example it would be 2 skulks) was dedicated at running across the rest of the map to hunt marines and destroy other side's extractors. Sure, it may not be enough in one or two waves. But their role being dedicated to harass marines, I'm not talking about few waves, but coordinates attacks over and over during the first 3 or 4 minutes.
This is a very aggressive strategy and should be perceived like it. The main objective is to distract marines during the first minutes of the game. As soon as the hive ended, the commander jumps again in the new hive an starts expanding harvesters and making upgrades. The alien team then should be able to have an advanced map control leading to the victory, or at least a really good start.
Please also note that with this heavy harassment strategy, skulks should gain a lot of personal resources killing marines, balancing in a way (not entirely, but still a little) the lack of early harvesters. It will be even better if the team coordinates to let the same skulk kill a maximum of marines, making him the quickest fade ever grown =).
Of course, as soon as the hive is fully grown, the whole early-game strategy stops and the game plan should be rearranged according the marines' situation.
---------
What are you thinking? Have you already tested this? If so how was it?
If you have videos to share featuring this strategy (winning or losing, whatever), you're welcome.
Thanks for reading, and let's discuss!
Comments
Aliens have been woefully overpowered in Natural Selection 2 since build 178. Instantly dropping a hive has always been a viable strategy, and defending a rushed hive really isn't all that hard, aliens spawn so quickly and growing hives have so much health that even if you die defending it, you can just respawn and return to its defense before it takes a considerable amount of damage. Aliens move so quickly around the map, while marines that are killed attacking the hive have to wait in their usually congested infantry portals, and then rush at a much slower pace to continue the attack. Usually marine pushes into hive rooms in the early game are over once the first wave gets slaughtered, they marines spawn back in one by one, not all at once, and without advanced coordination, which you almost never see in public games, just stream in 1 by 1 into the hive room to get slaughtered.
If anything we don't need building hives to be any easier, if your on the marine team and you know the aliens have a hive going up the moment the game starts, its clear if you don't quickly and decisively take it down, you already know how the next 45 minutes prior to your inevitable defeat are going to be like. For the marine side failure to take out a rushed hive usually means certain defeat, whereas for the aliens, failure to defend a rushed hive doesn't always mean so, as the marines wouldn't have anything more powerful then shotguns, which have such terrible short ranged effectiveness, that you could clean up any rush to your main hive. Also any kills you would've gotten quickly bring up your resource count, allowing you to set up some crags/whips and get your upgrades started, and if your really persistent, a little saving up and you can easily afford another hive to try and rush fades.
This is probably going to change with the cost of hives being doubled, which i think is probably for the better, we'll have to wait and see to be sure.
It's an all-in strat at the moment, but really not the best choice. It is too risky, if you lose it, you lose the game.
You won't be able to drop another because of the lack of resources, and you will have trouble killing all the marines due to no upgrades.
But the strategy will be gone in the next patch, and we will see less hivespam in next patch. Hive cost have been increased to 100.
I hope this increasing cost comes with goodies to really help aliens to get a second hive. Because 100 team resources is <b>A LOT</b>.
You mean all of them? Pretty much, at current tech level.
The real issue is that the alien team get Fades, not the hive.
That’s more overpriced than an iPod.
But if they absolutely need the marines to win more games, this would do it.
However, the problem I foresee is early GLs. They're a problem now, but they'll be a much bigger problem when there is only one hive to target and replacement hives will be far too costly to be feasible. Early GLs will be the next big imbalance though, I predict, because skulks are pathetic versus rifle squads and martyrdom will go unabated.
I can't wait to see the effects this has on strategic play. The new NS2HD clan-casts will be very interesting.
The fades are the most prominent issue, but there are many other benefits of the 2nd hive that can be as (if not valuable), including:
- More hive energy for cysts/drifters
- More eggs
- A different spawn location that is (generally) closer to the marines
- Another tech node to connect cysts
- Skulk leap
- 3rd chamber type (shade or crag, depending on which one you dropped at alien start)
- Gorge bilebomb
I'd say the extra hive energy (in the current res setup, aliens are limited by hive energy rather than TRes), the additional eggs (helps prevent egg-lock), and the skulk leap are the most valuable, outside of fades.
Shouldn't we be making the marines spread out more instead of taxing the aliens?
This idea may cause fright because it will limit 'ninja' possibilities, but I think it will just make a ninja build more dependent on co-op teamplay while still retaining some asymmetry. I think a have cost of ~70 seems more reasonable. Doubling it to 100 just seems too drastic at this point.
However, the problem I foresee is early GLs. They're a problem now, but they'll be a much bigger problem when there is only one hive to target and replacement hives will be far too costly to be feasible. Early GLs will be the next big imbalance though, I predict, because skulks are pathetic versus rifle squads and martyrdom will go unabated.
I can't wait to see the effects this has on strategic play. The new NS2HD clan-casts will be very interesting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree.. Hope it doesn't get too out of hand o.0.
Always liked having this high risk high reward option. It seems the reason why they increased hive cost was because aliens could just keep rehiving so quickly and not because of the ability to hive rush? If so, why not give aliens 100 res to start with, but increase the res cost of all their buildings and upggrades as well. This way if you do hive rush, your stuck without upgrades and such even more so the risk is higher (fades with no armour upgrades are pretty killable).
Always liked having this high risk high reward option. It seems the reason why they increased hive cost was because aliens could just keep rehiving so quickly and not because of the ability to hive rush? If so, why not give aliens 100 res to start with, but increase the res cost of all their buildings and upggrades as well. This way if you do hive rush, your stuck without upgrades and such even more so the risk is higher (fades with no armour upgrades are pretty killable).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like this change, on paper. Haven't seen it play out yet, ofc.
I'm quite sure that this change was both to fix the insta hivedrops, and the repeated hivedrops. And that, it does.
Now aliens would have to try and get the advanced armory down to delay the GLs.
But with the new hive cost marines will most likely have armor1, GLs and phase gates. So defending a hive at that point is going to be pretty tough for aliens.
And it will also make aliens need more than two harvesters, and pressuring those harvesters to delay the hive will also be more viable.
Alien team resources just become alot more valuable.
I'm really looking forward to this change, I'm pretty tired of this "hide and seek" with hivedrops, it doesn't feel fair with "constant" hivedropping.
At the steep cost of 100 T Res (takes almost 4.5 minutes from 3 Harvesters!), dropping a second hive becomes a make-or-break affair, which may create very dramatic game play, but the outcomes will be rather binary. If the Aliens lose the second Hive, they will not have enough resources, income, upgrade, or time to replace it before being crushed by Tier 2+ Marines.
From the scrims I've watched on Youtube, it is evident that the timing of the second Hive is crucial, as many games either have, or would have been won by Marines if aliens could not get Fade within a minute of the completion of the seond Hive. This cost surge will significantly delay the second Hive, further reducing the chance of the second Hive completing.
This change will also hurt Alien strategic variety. A second Hive unlocks essential tech for fighting against tier 2 Marines with Grenades, Shotguns, and Phase Gates/ARCs/Sentries. Without a second Hive, aliens are locked out of the majority of their tech, while Marines do not suffer such restrictions.
Alien techs would need to be more accessible, and flexible to create interesting strategic paths. Increasing Hive cost would have an detrimental, and opposite effect.