Fade Is Overpowered

IlendilTG · November 2002

I was just playing in a 1 hour game as commander and guess what happened?

We got owned by FADES, we controlled 1 hive location and several outposts, but they demolished ALL of them.

Lets say <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'> is a Fade.

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'> can kill <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'>

In 10 minutes.

Why are sentries so weak now?
I'm starting to think the sentries are useless now... 19 resources, can't aim worth crap, dies in 10 slashes if the Fade gets close enough (which is very easy to do.)

Sentries are way too weak, I bet any of you a team of at least 4 fades will destroy all the outposts you have
At least make the sentry SMARTER, make them AIM better ffs... do you think any sentry would withstand 2 fades, especially since the sentry detects targets every 3 seconds? 3 seconds is a lot... one Fade can distract it while the other one kills the factory.

Marines suck. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'>

crode · November 2002

maybe you should try playing a fade a bit. you will see exactly how they are played. then come back and change your post when you find out the are not too over powered.

Catgirl · November 2002

Wow, ten minutes, eh?

You should try having ACTUAL MARINES to back up your Sentries, instead of just setting up walls of them and hoping the server will play the game for you. Little tip.

I don't see a single thing in your posts about the Fades owning your Marines, just your Turrets. And of course real players should be able to demolish Turrets. Turrets are a roadblock, not an impenetrable wall.

Aliens keep killing your Turrets? HAVE ACTUAL PEOPLE WATCHING THEM.

(Hell, I can kill way more Turrets than that in ten minutes if nobody's watching me... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'> Being able to kill Turrets isn't a sign of class-overpoweredness, it's a sign of knowing how to kill Turrets effectively.)

IlendilTG · November 2002

This was because I was commanding only 4 marines...

I'm saying, even I had backup there, those acid rockets can tear them apart.

By the time the marines even know theres a waypoint for them, the outpost is GONE.
This was on ns_eclipse btw...

Nimbus · November 2002

what about a Marine with a nade launcher, how many Offense turrets can he take out in 10 minutes if no aliens are there?

Catgirl · November 2002

About 750,000 if the Comm keeps feeding him ammo.

IlendilTG · November 2002

Well, it takes 10 grenades to take out one offense chamber if the marine can't aim well, 30+ if theres at least 3 defense chambers there.

Catgirl · November 2002

So you're complaining about skilled Fades ripping up your outposts, but when it comes time to compare against Marines, you use the comparison of a Marine who can't aim? Fair, that.

Shadowics · November 2002

I'm sorry, really, but I can't agree with you at all. Your turret may be 19 resources but a Fade is 44 resources. The turret is much better long range, and has unlimited ammo, you can have as many turrets as you want, and they never go off ramboing on their own. Turrets are not meant to hold off players forever, were you playing by yourself? where was the rest of your team? Hell, you could kill a turret farm with a skulk or even a gorge easily enough, it would just take awhile, the only being you'd probably be dead meat if any marines surprised you. If you just have a outpost with a dozen turrets and no marines don't expect it to last forever. IMHO marine turrets are <i>over</i>powered right now because there's no limit on how many you can have other than your resources and floor space.

Ah, curses, others have replied in the time it's taken me to type this. Acid rockets take forever to kill something with if you're the one using them. Bile bombs would do 4 times the damage if they weren't bugged, just wait till they get that fixed then the game will be more balanced. Small games are always the hardest, even though they seem easier to comm because there are less people.

Twex · November 2002

^^ what catgirl said. sentries without marine support are supposed to fall to Fades. you should really build 2 sentries less and get a phase gate up instead.

however, instead of discussing marine sentries again, we should ask if Fades are overpowered versus actual marines.

IMHO the acid rocket got a tad too strong in 1.01. a class that can cloak, blink and has a deadly melee attack shouldn't have a super ranged attack too. adrenaline fades can fire rockets at MG speeds and kill in a few shots. i don't like that at all.

xioutlawix · November 2002

Heh, I like to invariably go back and forth between the two races, its just more fun with more diversity. And for a while there I was in fact thinking that the races were balanced. But it seems to have a lot to do with the size of the teams.
In a small server (5-7 people per team) I've noticed a pretty easy marine rape in most cases. For larger servers, the marines seem to have an easier time fighting back.

Either way, I have to agree. Why bother even going onos now when you have the fade, which has equally great melee and ranged attacks :\

I have to say I'm definitely in favor of a pro-marine buff. Something of a compromise between 1.0 and 1.01.
I have to say, it just feels like 1.0 was more balanced than this latest version. I loved going aliens in 1.0 because they were the underdogs, you had to fight for that win. But it seems like now in 1.01, you simply don't have a fighting chance at marines. Oh well, such is the fun of tweaking <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

IlendilTG · November 2002

Ok let me explain.

A fade has 200/125, 200/150 at lvl 1 carapace.

LMG bullets can only do 10 dmg per bullet.
There is 50 bullets in a clip, but you can't expect all of them to hit a Fade.

So, lets say only 15 bullets hit, thats 150 damage.
Any smart alien would create 3 offense chambers, meaning lvl 3 carapace, that allows 60% damage absorbtion.

That means the alien will have about 140/90, that is hardly any damage if you ask me, when the marine starts reloading, that fade is gonna run and slash him.

A full LMG clip can kill him, but tell me if its possible to hit all 50 bullets.
HMG can kill faster, that is for sure, but the Fade is too fast for the marine to shoot him.

Spetz · November 2002

Fades really are no match for Marines in Heavy Armour with a Heavy Machinegun. So they are balanced imho. I have seen the Marines win a lot more frequently now that commanders are getting better at their job, and hence the Marine team gets better. Sure, the Fade owns regular marines, but then it is the Marine team's fault for allowing the Aliens to get Fades before they can get heavy armour and heavy machine guns. The only way to really do this is by securing a hive at the begining and holding it.

crode · November 2002

hey i could live with them nerfing acid rockets... but i better be able to get the ability of melee'ing a marine in heavy armor in under 3-4 seconds.

IlendilTG · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shadowics @ Nov 16 2002, 05:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I'm sorry, really, but I can't agree with you at all. Your turret may be 19 resources but a Fade is 44 resources. The turret is much better long range, and has unlimited ammo, you can have as many turrets as you want, and they never go off ramboing on their own. Turrets are not meant to hold off players forever, were you playing by yourself? where was the rest of your team? Hell, you could kill a turret farm with a skulk or even a gorge easily enough, it would just take awhile, the only being you'd probably be dead meat if any marines surprised you. If you just have a outpost with a dozen turrets and no marines don't expect it to last forever. IMHO marine turrets are <i>over</i>powered right now because there's no limit on how many you can have other than your resources and floor space.

Ah, curses, others have replied in the time it's taken me to type this. Acid rockets take forever to kill something with if you're the one using them. Bile bombs would do 4 times the damage if they weren't bugged, just wait till they get that fixed then the game will be more balanced. Small games are always the hardest, even though they seem easier to comm because there are less people.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The turret is much better long range, and has unlimited ammo</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Are you kidding me?

The closest resource nozzle to the marine base on ns_eclipse is a long hallway with a catwalk and if you build any turret there, those fades can acid rocket from far away and recieve no damage. Go command, click a sentry, and look at the green circle, THATS THE MAXIMUM RANGE IT CAN SHOOT. Acid rocket can go unlimited distance, sentry is limited.

Unlimited ammo, yes, but so does the Fade.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>IMHO marine turrets are <i>over</i>powered right now because there's no limit on how many you can have other than your resources and floor space.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

If they were overpowered, nothing can get past them, but 1 fade can get past with little to no damage.

IlendilTG · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Spetznaz_1 @ Nov 16 2002, 05:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Fades really are no match for Marines in Heavy Armour with a Heavy Machinegun. So they are balanced imho. I have seen the Marines win a lot more frequently now that commanders are getting better at their job, and hence the Marine team gets better. Sure, the Fade owns regular marines, but then it is the Marine team's fault for allowing the Aliens to get Fades before they can get heavy armour and heavy machine guns. The only way to really do this is by securing a hive at the begining and holding it.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Alright... let me say something.
Smaller games = aliens have advantage.
Larger games = marines have advantage.

Aliens have advantage why?

Its because the resources are spread out, if there were fewer aliens, each of them would be getting more then they would have if it was a larger game, where the resources would have to be spread out between all of the aliens.

The aliens can get hives much faster then you think.

crode · November 2002

i play exclusively on 30+ player servers so that sounds about right

Catgirl · November 2002

Of course, if Marines would learn to play effectively in the early game with their default LMGs instead of whining about how they could be "owning" if they had HMGs and standing next to the CC and whining for them...I bet Marines would do a lot better.

I regularly see Marines complaining about wanting an HMG less than 5 minutes into the game.

As for resources being spread out...that makes it a little harder for that Gorge to get his EIGHTY resources to build a Hive just so they can have access to Fades.

Complaining because you can't LMG a Fade is like complaining because you can't Skulk a Marine in HA with an HMG. They're UPGRADED for a REASON. They PAY to be better. You can't complain that your naked-**obscenity** newly spawned Marine with his default piddly gun can't massacre Onos like mowing down wheat. Those players PAY with RESOURCES for the PRIVLEDGE of having those better attacks and stats.

Fades killing your guys with LMGs? Give them better gear! Make them comperable!

Fade with Carapace and Adrenaline and Cloaking = 50 resource points.

Marine with an HMG and Heavy Armour = 50 resource points.

And you can't tell me Marines in HA can't mow down Fades with their HMGs.

IlendilTG · November 2002

Alright, how do I give gear if the Fades killed every single outpost I had?

Any fade can kill an outpost with 4 turrets, even with an acid rocket. It takes only 3-4 acid rockets to kill a marine, 5-6 if its just splash hit.
I DID give HA and HMGs in that game, but all of them died to that slash

Sure, it maybe newb marines, but it means that the Fade is slightly overpowered.

crode · November 2002

wrong again. Someone posted a test and it took 10 or 11? acid rockets to kill a marine. One guy welds and they are indestructable. I would think that your marines were not playing very well

like i said, play the aliens side on a 30+ server and you will think differently

Catgirl · November 2002

Or they're a good Fade.

You have to remember that generally the Alien players are a good bit better than the Marine players. Mostly from playing pre-1.01 and dealing with HA/HMG Marines before they have their second frickin' Hive.

As for an Outpost with 4 Turrets...I can kill one of those as Lerk too. Especially with 2 Hives. Hell, I can kill an Outpost as Lerk with almost no work with 2 Hives. Outposts die. You kill theirs, they kill yours. If you want them to survive, you put people there to watch them.

If a Fade gets close enough to MULTIPLE Marines with HMGs in HA to slash them to death...maybe they're just bad Marines? Equal numbers of players can't cover up different skill levels. Aliens are built to solo more than Marines. A much better Alien is going to rip through your less-skilled team whether he's overpowered or not. Skulks can take on entire packs of Marines by running around them and biting at their ankles. It's just how it works.

I eat Fades like candy with an HMG. ESPECIALLY WITH BACKUP. Two HA guys both with Welders and a Comm giving them health judiciously can take out Fades without too much trouble. It takes 5 slashes to kill a fully-armoured HA Marine with a Fade.

Yes, in small games Marines get rocked by Aliens. Then don't play small games. NS isn't built for small games. NS is built for teamwork, not soloing. 4 people, with one being Commander, isn't enough for teamwork.

IlendilTG · November 2002

One guy welds?

I only had the ability to command 4 marines, and if they move around alone, they are sure to die, these marines can't move to a waypoint instantly.

You forgot the fact that acid rocket can splash...

Unit · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Sure, it maybe newb marines, but it means that the Fade is slightly overpowered.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Come on now...it's not fair that u use a skilled Fade player, and then newbie marines for comparison. Have u played as a Fade often? I have, and trust me, taking down a remote base with 1 Fade is not easy business, it takes quite a long time just to rocket down a sentry turret, and going in for the factory is very hard if the marine commander knew how to place his buildings. If u want to make ur expansions even more formiddable, place 1 marine at that node and tell him to hide behind a building/or stand on top of it. The Fade won't be stupid enough to charge straight up against 3 turrets + a marine, and with the marine there he cannot go for the factory.

Try that, it should work beautifully, that is, considering you're not working with "newb marines".

Catgirl · November 2002

Acid Rocket vs Heavy Armour Marine:

Acid Rocket = 60 damage, Heavy Armour = transfers 90% of damage to armour.

(This math assumes all shots are head-on full 60 damage, no splashes for less.)

Shot 0: 100 health / 290 armour
Shot 1: 60 damage (6 health, 54 armour) = 94 health / 246 armour
Shot 2: 60 damage = 88 health / 192 armour
Shot 3: 60 damage = 82 health / 138 armour
Shot 4: 60 damage = 76 health / 84 armour
Shot 5: 60 damage = 70 health / 30 armour
Shot 6: 60 damage = 40 health / 0 armour
Shot 7: 60 damage = **DEAD**

So if a Marine stands there and takes your Rockets full in the face, doesn't dodge, and has nobody (Comm or Welder) healing him, it'll take 7 shots to kill him. In reality, it's going to take approximately 10-11 shots, maybe more, depending on the dodging skills of the Marine and aim of the Fade.

IlendilTG · November 2002

You also forgot that you don't instantly get 290 armor, its starts at 200 armor, you get 290 ONCE you get lvl 3 armor, which costs 100 resouces.

You'll have to recalculate that.

Also, if I were to try and keep at least 1 marine there, it wouldn't be possible, since I can only command 4, I'd need all to kill at least 1 hive.

Catgirl · November 2002

I already told you...NS isn't made for small games like that. Listen to that part.

As for having HMGs and Heavy Armour, but not having ANY upgrades...I hate Commanders that do that. They don't know what the hell they're doing. They race to the big guns and Heavy Armour and neglect any upgrades to their base Marines. And then they die. Always.

You spend the majority of the game as a regular Marine with an LMG if you die a reasonable amount of times. Why would you not get the upgrades for that before Heavy Armour and other such things? It makes no sense.

IlendilTG · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Catgirl @ Nov 16 2002, 06:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I already told you...NS isn't made for small games like that. Listen to that part.

As for having HMGs and Heavy Armour, but not having ANY upgrades...I hate Commanders that do that. They don't know what the hell they're doing. They race to the big guns and Heavy Armour and neglect any upgrades to their base Marines. And then they die. Always.

You spend the majority of the game as a regular Marine with an LMG if you die a reasonable amount of times. Why would you not get the upgrades for that before Heavy Armour and other such things? It makes no sense.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I already told you...NS isn't made for small games like that. Listen to that part.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Then tell the developers to limit the size to a minimum 16 people and then you can say that.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why would you not get the upgrades for that before Heavy Armour and other such things? It makes no sense.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I had level 3 weapons and level 2 armor before I started to run low on resources, are you saying that I don't upgrade?

Catgirl · November 2002

Then why when I made my comparison about how many Acid Rockets it takes to kill a HA Marine did you want me to use the BASE armour of Heavy Armour? Obviously that isn't what you had, but you want me to use it for my calculations? That doesn't make sense.

You CONTINUOUSLY use worst-case scenarios for Marines ("LMGs suck against Fades." "Acid Rockets kill unupgraded Marines too fast." "Marines weren't very good." "It takes 10 grenades to kill an Offense Chamber if the Marine can't aim.") while simultaneously using example of skilled, upgraded Alien players. Skilled players beat unskilled players, never mind the upgrades. A good Skulk can kill Heavy Armoured Marines. A good Marine with an LMG can kill Fades. That's just how it works. I can Crowbar people in TFC too, but that's just because I'm GOOD.

IlendilTG · November 2002

Sigh.... I think I'll stop commanding til the marines at least get a good nerf.

wRaven · November 2002

You know, you can't use personal experinces to say how you would ballance a game. Each person has a different skill level, play syle, ext. "I killed two fades with a shot gun." Big deal. Who cares. "I destroyed a whole base with one fade." And? This doesen't mean the game is ballanced; however, it also doesn't mean it is.

Its also not smart to compare Grenades to the Fade's range attacks. The fade has unlimited ammo, not to mention with head on confrintations, the Fade's range attacks explode at once, while grenades if they don't hit anything, take a second or two to actuall blow up. If you hop away, you can easily avoide grenades, at leat not taking as much dammage.

When you get down to it. 5 fades vs. 5 marines, fades have a greater chance of surivival. Not to say they will win, but they can probally do better in the end. Each one has a high powered long range attack, and deadly close range attack. Each of them. This is as if a marine had a HMG, GL, and a shotgun, less ammo for each weapon, but unlimited now.

Unit · November 2002

Woot Catgirl does that make me a "good alien player"? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'> I occassionally take down heavies with Skulks by circling them in a frenzy...but usually right after that my head hurts from all the spinning...

Fade Is Overpowered

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