matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Terminology confusing, obviously. Abilities tied to CC energy is not spammable in the same way that abiities tied to observatory energy is, because there is a limited amount of CC's you can build, while there is no limit to the amount of observatories you can build (apart from tres, which is too cheap, IMO).
So adding more abiltities to a CC energy would make building more CC's valuable to the marines. Arguable, you should have nanoshield, medpack and ammopack all come from the same resource, so moving them to the CC energy pool could work. If you accept that medpacks/ammopacks/nanoshields don't scale with number of players, of course...
<!--quoteo(post=1888710:date=Dec 6 2011, 11:56 AM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Dec 6 2011, 11:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you accept that medpacks/ammopacks/nanoshields don't scale with number of players, of course...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could fix that problem by making medpacks and ammo packs a slight area effect, like the nanoshield, and increasing their cost to match.
That way the more marines there are, the more you can hit with the power.
Wouldn't completely eliminate it but would help it scale some, and make it easier to drop them on marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1888758:date=Dec 6 2011, 07:46 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 6 2011, 07:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888758"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could fix that problem by making medpacks and ammo packs a slight area effect, like the nanoshield, and increasing their cost to match.
That way the more marines there are, the more you can hit with the power.
Wouldn't completely eliminate it but would help it scale some, and make it easier to drop them on marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you make health- and ammokits area of effect you have to make it a charger instead of instant effect because it'd be insanely powerfull.
<!--quoteo(post=1888768:date=Dec 6 2011, 07:11 PM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Dec 6 2011, 07:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888768"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you make health- and ammokits area of effect you have to make it a charger instead of instant effect because it'd be insanely powerfull.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I was actually thinking of a sort of healing cloud would be better than the medpack system we have currently, as not only would it be easier to aim and scale better but it would also allow you to fix the annoying 'drop medpacks on marine to make them invincible' thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1888483:date=Dec 5 2011, 06:41 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Dec 5 2011, 06:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888483"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> /Agrees with (all of) what you said
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1888710:date=Dec 6 2011, 12:56 PM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Dec 6 2011, 12:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Terminology confusing, obviously. Abilities tied to CC energy is not spammable in the same way that abiities tied to observatory energy is, because there is a limited amount of CC's you can build, while there is no limit to the amount of observatories you can build (apart from tres, which is too cheap, IMO).
So adding more abiltities to a CC energy would make building more CC's valuable to the marines. Arguable, you should have nanoshield, medpack and ammopack all come from the same resource, so moving them to the CC energy pool could work. If you accept that medpacks/ammopacks/nanoshields don't scale with number of players, of course...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I just can't see the sense in putting it to a resource that is basicly undependent on the rest of the game. Yes, CC energy still needs map control, but you actually just end up limiting the use of your abilities, instead of giving more access to them with more resources. Resources could scale with current player numbers. Simple calculation in the code? It's a RTS/FPS blend, main objective should be to get more resources than the other team, and outplay them. And I think adding the abilities to your resources would help reflect that.
Most strategy games generally have more than one type of resource point, because having to control different map areas for different things is strategically interesting.
About the only one that doesn't do that is command and conquer, but most other ones use it and benefit from it, starcraft has its crystal and its gas, dawn of war has requisition and power, supreme commander has power and mass, which are collected in two entirely different ways, one by expansion, the other by base building, which is very interesting. Company of heroes has three resources, manpower, ammo, and fuel. That's really quite interesting because ammo is solely spent on off map abilities, and a few unit upgrades, but basically ammo is your support power ability, and the game plays out very differently depending on whether you can secure lots of fuel, manpower, or ammo. Ammo heavy players tend to be able to fire lots of support powers but they lack heavy armor. Fuel heavy players can mass armor but an ammo heavy player can give his units AT weapons and call support powers to destroy the other player's tanks. Manpower management can completely cripple a player who doesn't watch what he builds and keeps all his units in play, as building lots of units cuts manpower income. The three resource mechanic actually brings a whole new level of asymmetry to the game, as you have to adapt what tools you use to what sort of money you have, it's one of the game's strongest points.
Introducing an additional resource type will create an economic bottleneck in public gaming. This is a team based game (more than one player per side), and is intended to be primarily a pick-up and go experience that doesn't break when people aren't working in near perfect tandem.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
The difference between energy and resources right now is that energy is bound to a specific building and has a cap, while resorces accumulate for the team and person. Which makes using up the energy a bit frustrating (and confusing - placing cysts can be done anywhere, but the energy has to come from a specific hive). Nanashield will have tbe same problem - ie, you need to have the CC selected to trigger nanoshield, while you don't need it for the packs.
Having a "support pool" res that paid for all kind of in-field support would probably be better than having CC energy paying for NanoShield, personal res paying for med/ammo packs and tres paying for other stuff. Exactly how that pool should be filled (CC's, upgrades, RTs, paying tres) can be adjusted to fit.
As a bonus, marines could loose energy as a concept completly, while keeping it on the alien side, thus adding more asymmetry to the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1889044:date=Dec 8 2011, 03:29 AM:name=Kalabalana)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kalabalana @ Dec 8 2011, 03:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889044"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Introducing an additional resource type will create an economic bottleneck in public gaming. This is a team based game (more than one player per side), and is intended to be primarily a pick-up and go experience that doesn't break when people aren't working in near perfect tandem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then aliens should not need hives for tech, because that does exactly the same thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1889063:date=Dec 8 2011, 07:31 AM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Dec 8 2011, 07:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The difference between energy and resources right now is that energy is bound to a specific building and has a cap, while resorces accumulate for the team and person. Which makes using up the energy a bit frustrating (and confusing - placing cysts can be done anywhere, but the energy has to come from a specific hive). Nanashield will have tbe same problem - ie, you need to have the CC selected to trigger nanoshield, while you don't need it for the packs.
Having a "support pool" res that paid for all kind of in-field support would probably be better than having CC energy paying for NanoShield, personal res paying for med/ammo packs and tres paying for other stuff. Exactly how that pool should be filled (CC's, upgrades, RTs, paying tres) can be adjusted to fit.
As a bonus, marines could loose energy as a concept completly, while keeping it on the alien side, thus adding more asymmetry to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The energy implementation could use some improvement certainly.
I wouldn't change the functionality, but I would change how you access it.
Rather than accessing it from individual CCs, it should be accessed from an overall energy pool, of course it's still provided by CCs and still capped by them, it's just rather than having three CCs with 200 cap and 1 income each, you just have a central pool with 600 cap and 3 income.
You should also put this in for alien hives as having to go to specific hives to get cysts is a little irritating. Although for aliens you could make it so that the hives need to be connected together via infestation to get the central pool, just for fun.
Once you've done this, just add a little bar on the right of the screen that lets you select your various support powers and fire them, just like in company of heroes, or any RTS with off-map support.
Should work just dandy.
Not sure if that's what you meant by a single pool thing.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1889063:date=Dec 8 2011, 08:31 AM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Dec 8 2011, 08:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having a "support pool" res that paid for all kind of in-field support would probably be better than having CC energy paying for NanoShield, personal res paying for med/ammo packs and tres paying for other stuff. Exactly how that pool should be filled (CC's, upgrades, RTs, paying tres) can be adjusted to fit.
As a bonus, marines could loose energy as a concept completly, while keeping it on the alien side, thus adding more asymmetry to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with personal res being this support pool, as it is already made like this for most support stuff for the marine commander, other stuff with energy just isn't apart of this system, yet? Hence the huge gaps in the res model, and the amount of abilities that you just recover over time if you have a specific building. I disagree with the aliens having this 3rd resource for most of their stuff. Which makes their abilities independent from the actual resource flow, and all the structures have different pools, which makes spamming them a very good option. It could be made to have one large energy pool, but that would be alot more work(and more balancing issues) with almost the same outcome as changing it to Personal Res. Having energy for the abilities instead of personal res, gives aliens access to more lifeforms or hydras. This could help balance that out as well, as it is quite obvious that aliens can access too many lifeforms at the moment. All this, is a small change(simple variable changes?), for a more complete resource model. When more stuff arrives, there will still be room for it in the resource system. More trade-offs.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2011
Some assorted thoughts:
<b>1. The Tres/Pres system isn't working so great.</b>
Part of the problem is that it limits comms too much, especially with regards to dropping ammo/meds to marines in the field. It also happens to ruin the "Should I drop stuff for this marine or is it better to save up for this upgrade right now?" decisionmaking that was so important for comms in NS1. When Pres doesn't actually add anything to the gameplay, it makes no sense to have it. The sooner the Tres/Pres differentiation for marines is axed, the better.
<b>2. Having a resources/energy system makes sense, but only if costs are categorized according to gameplay needs.</b>
Scan should cost energy, beacon should cost resources (I won't elaborate on why here, it has been mentioned enough times already). Ignoring gameplay considerations in order to implement a unifying model for resources/energy is the wrong path to take.
<b>3. Nano shield is a good idea, but the current implementation is worse than not having it at all.</b>
Hard counters are great in pure RTS games, but not so much in an RTS/FPS hybrid. The problem is that said counter is incredibly frustrating for the field players. Playing as an alien against an ability that makes your opponent invincible is just frustrating. It isn't that much better for the marine either, because at some point all the aliens will learn that as soon as the blue glob drops you better run the hell away until it runs out, which will make for very disjointed combat. What nanoshield should be, is a boost, similar to catpacks in NS1. For the duration it's activated on you by the comm, you get a boost to your armor.
That way aliens can actually make a conscious choice whether to run away, instead of being faced with the binary choice of run away or die we have right now. I can't stress how important the difference between those two situations are. I would go as far as to say that it's the difference between nano shield cheapening gameplay and nano shield deepening gameplay.
<b>4. The current alien attack to marine health/armor ratios are a mess.</b>
They weren't perfect in NS1 either, so this is a good chance to improve on the original. The problem is that it isn't as intuitive as it should be for the players. Ideally, each armor level should profer a specific advantage on the individual marine in terms of exactly how many specific alien attacks it takes to kill him from full health/armor.
Take the skulk as an example: Right now, the mechanics against armor level 0 marines, where it takes exactly two bites and a parasite to kill a marine, is beautiful. This adds both an incentive for players to use parasite and an element of skill (and humiliation!). The players can use bite and parasite in conjunction when attacking to be more effective, but it takes a bit of practice and steady hands to use it to your advantage. The armor 1 upgrade should then either make it take exactly three skulk bites and a parasite to kill a marine or make it take exactly three skulk bites (the NS1 model). The advantage with the second model is that it balances armor 1 against weapon 1, whereas the first model makes armor 1 always superior to weapon 1 as the first upgrade.
Ideally this should continue up the chain and also synergize with the other alien attacks. In NS1, armor 1 didn't add more bites to kill a marine for a skulk, it only negated the parasite attack, but it did however add an extra attack for fades to kill a marine, making it extremly important a bit later in the game.
Obviously this would need a bit of work to get right, is absolutely limited by maths, and I don't have an absolute answer to how it all should fit together, but here's a quick suggestion of how it should ideally be:
Vs. skulk: A0: 3 bites or 2 bites + 1 parasite. A1: 3 bites or 2 bites + many, many parasites. A2: 4 bites or 3 bites + 1 parasite. A3: 4 bites or 3 bites + many, many parasites.
Vs. fade: A0: Two swipes. A1: Three swipes. A2: Three swipes (adding a fourth swipe for the fade is a huge advantage, so it needs to cost a little extra to get there). A3: Four swipes.
Vs onos: A0: Two gores. A1: Two gores. A2: Three gores. A3: Three gores.
This would also synergize with lerk and gorge attacks, in that a certain amount of hits from them reduces the amount of attacks the other lifeforms have to hit to kill the marine. For example, while A2 doesn't help the marine survive more swipes from a fade, but it should help him survive more other attacks before the fade can kill him in two swipes. You could also synergize different lifeforms in this model, for example make it so that a skulk bite on an A2 marine lets the onos kill him in two gores, while an A3 marine can still surive three onos gores even after being hit once by a skulk bite.
<b>5. The current movement systems are too limited and don't reward time spent practicing.</b>
The worst offender is the fade blink, as has been discussed to death in other threads, but this also applies almost as much to the gorge and marine and even the skulk. The only currently implemented player class that has any appreciable depth to its movement system is the lerk.
I'm going to be very blunt here and say that the marine sprint and gorge belly slide are good examples of what you shouldn't do when designing a movement system in a melee vs. ranged game. They have absolutely zero depth and once the novelty factor wears off after a couple of hours of play, they simply become a button you press to do something, but since it's so easy and there's no way to improve their performance through practice, and everybody does it, they don't actually add anything to the gameplay.
In fact, I would go as far as to say that gameplay would be better if both sprint and belly slide were removed, even if nothing was added in their stead. Belly slide might be possible to salvage through some changes that add meaningful player input to how well it works, but sprinting is completely useless in terms of what it adds to gameplay (nothing).
<b>6. The gorge is the noob class</b>
This has also been discussed heavily before, in tandem with the addition of the alien comm and the removal of vital building functions from the gorge. Right now, the gorge is a hydra/cyst dropping healing dispenser, and it takes a very short time to learn everything there is to learn about gorging in NS2. No surprise then that all the worst players tend to default to going gorge. That in itself isn't so bad, the problem is that there's absolutely zero reason for a good player to go gorge, because there's nothing he can do as a gorge that "Bob NSPlayer", who has had the game since last week, can't do equally well.
The obvious solution to this is making the gorge more combat oriented. That doesn't mean you have to play combat gorge, if you want to sit back and build hydra farms you can, but it should be possible and it should reward players who take the time to practice doing it. To do that you first have to implement a meaningful movement system for the gorge and then you have to improve his primary weapon, the spit gun. The spit gun is actually a great weapon, in that it is one of very few non-hitscan weapons in the game, that actually takes a lot of practice and skill to use effectively. The best way to improve it would be to drastically lower its energy cost and possibly also boost its damage output slightly.
I would also argue that the alien comm is just as meaningless as the recently axed multiple commanders, but I'll leave that for another day.
<!--quoteo(post=1889156:date=Dec 8 2011, 11:28 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Dec 8 2011, 11:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889156"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Obviously this would need a bit of work to get right, is absolutely limited by maths, and I don't have an absolute answer to how it all should fit together, but here's a quick suggestion of how it should ideally be:
Vs. skulk: A0: 3 bites or 2 bites + 1 parasite. A1: 3 bites or 2 bites + many, many parasites. A2: 4 bites or 3 bites + 1 parasite. A3: 4 bites or 3 bites + many, many parasites.
Vs. fade: A0: Two swipes. A1: Three swipes. A2: Three swipes (adding a fourth swipe for the fade is a huge advantage, so it needs to cost a little extra to get there). A3: Four swipes.
Vs onos: A0: Two gores. A1: Two gores. A2: Three gores. A3: Three gores.
This would also synergize with lerk and gorge attacks, in that a certain amount of hits from them reduces the amount of attacks the other lifeforms have to hit to kill the marine. For example, while A2 doesn't help the marine survive more swipes from a fade, but it should help him survive more other attacks before the fade can kill him in two swipes. You could also synergize different lifeforms in this model, for example make it so that a skulk bite on an A2 marine lets the onos kill him in two gores, while an A3 marine can still surive three onos gores even after being hit once by a skulk bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, the damage system should be a cat and mouse process, get ahead see benefit, get behind, feel it. The new system feels more like pudding.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2011
I guess I should also add that I think alien melee damage upgrades should stay where they are right now -- left out of the game. I'm going to do a huge post on the alien upgrade system at some point, but I need to think that one properly through first.
<!--quoteo(post=1889180:date=Dec 8 2011, 06:42 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Dec 8 2011, 06:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889180"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess I should also add that I think alien melee damage upgrades should stay where they are right now -- left out of the game. I'm going to do a huge post on the alien upgrade system at some point, but I need to think that one properly through first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think aliens need some kind of improved late game scaling. The pres system means that ramping up lifeforms isn't going to be as effective as it used to be, so aliens really need to figure out some ways to go further than the big lifeform blooms when the res peak players start affording a lifeform or tech gets unlocked.
I don't know if the basic dmg/armor upgrades are the way to go, but they're one possibility. The implementation has to improve though.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2011
The aliens already have that late game scaling with hives, lifeforms and chamber upgrades. If it needs improving, it should be improved in that direction. Adding a generic melee damage upgrade is a big cop out in my opinion. We need more asymmetry, not less, especially now that the aliens have a commander too, removing one of the defining asymmetries of NS1.
The introduction of pres/tres has made both the marine and alien ecologies go completely bonkers. The resource flow is still more or less balanced around the old NS1 system, but the pres/tres distinction (combined with player bought guns on the marine side) has really shaken things up. It's having a lot of unintended side effects, especially on the amount of higher tier lifeforms and guns in play. I don't have the actual quote available, but a few years back Flayra stated that their goal was to make skulk vs. marine lmg gameplay even more prominent, as that seemed to be what players enjoyed the most in NS1 (I know I did). Unfortunately, the current pres flow for both marines and aliens is leading to exactly the opposite results. Outside of the initial two minutes of gameplay, suddenly there's a gradual incline in the amount of advanced guns and higher tier lifeforms. Depending on who's winning, at around 6-8 minutes into the game, at least one of the teams will either almost entirely be outfitted with gls or sgs or consist mostly of fades/lerks/gorges. How to fix that is an entirely different debate though.
I feel the damage system was heading more in the right direction pre-188. Would love to see some new damage models come out as alternatives to what's going on now. I don't think many people realize it yet, or I'm just wrong, but the current system is a step backwards, and is needlessly hurting the game.
We need some hardcore/talented NS players stepping in with development (gameplay/balance/mechanics).
<!--quoteo(post=1889192:date=Dec 8 2011, 07:10 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Dec 8 2011, 07:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889192"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The introduction of pres/tres has made both the marine and alien ecologies go completely bonkers. The resource flow is still more or less balanced around the old NS1 system, but the pres/tres distinction (combined with player bought guns on the marine side) has really shaken things up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is the thing that bothers me the most. I think it might be worth to have a res model thread sometime soon and try to figure out which parts are functional, which can be fixed and which have to be rebuild somehow. Right now it often feels that there are little adjustments and fine tuning made to things that need wrecking ball more than anything else.
Yes on all points, especially that alien passive upgrades should be removed and gorge is a noob class. I made a long, tired post about gorge improvements <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=115284&view=findpost&p=1886232" target="_blank">here</a>.
Obviously movement skills need implementing at some point.
Also yes to res model needing a good examination.
Edit: Fana, I think you should make a series of topics on each of those points you made for proper discussion. Just for kicks!!!
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2011
Yeah, that's a good post. I don't agree with all of your proposed solutions, but some are very good. The biggest problem being that your suggestion to add a skill component to belly slide doesn't really seem like it would make much of a difference.
I think gameplay could benefit a lot from making both hydras and turrets expire after a set duration to promote more active use instead of farming.
Edit: I have some ideas about that but it might take a while before it happens!!!
Yeah the belly slide idea is grasping at straws. I also still thought healspray looking at the floor gave you instant infestation but its all cysts now so its a moot point really.
How do we actually want support abilities to be used? 1. Should it be constant amount of use through out the game? 2. Should it increase slowly as the game progresses? 3. Should it be able to be used as a way to 'end game' (eg, nano spamming)?
2/3 is hinting at a pres/energy based on CC system (IE you can increase your support abilities by building extra res/tech nodes
1 is hinting at a system similar to hive energy, but capped at 1 'hive' worth.
Current Armor system
How do we actually want game play to change throughout the game?
Obviously with melee upgrades taken out, marines become harder and harder to kill. If you combat that with better survivability on alien side as well, you're gona end up with early game = quick/ambush type attacks, and end game being drawn out battles. Consider that for a game to reach endgame, it means the skills of both teams are relatively balanced.. Then add on top of that drawn out battles, it will just increase the 'stalemate' situation, regardless of any sort of sentry turret/hydra spamming issues.
LMG vs Skulk gametime
I love the lmg vs skulk combat (both sides). Would love to see it extended.
What things can we introduce that will extend the 'tier 1' combat?
and swalk said my idea was complicated and unintuitive... There's no way for me to say that without sounding petty(at least in my opinion there isn't), so there you go.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1889466:date=Dec 9 2011, 08:57 PM:name=Ironsoul)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ironsoul @ Dec 9 2011, 08:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and swalk said my idea was complicated and unintuitive... There's no way for me to say that without sounding petty(at least in my opinion there isn't), so there you go.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So integrating abilities into the resource system is complicated and unintuitive?
I pretty much agree with Fana (again). Especially about the blink.
Regarding the alien melee / armor upgrades; I haven't thought this through but my intuition tells me that it doesn't add much into the game. In NS1, aliens would have to be more creative to counter marine upgrades. The asymmetric nature of the game meant, that aliens would have to take focus, onos, leap, umbra etc. to counter late-game tech instead of racing this symmetric weapon upgrade race. I think asymmetric features keep the gameplay more interesting and versatile.
I'd also like to emphasize the nature of hives. In NS1, the hives always brought the game to another level. For example in NS1, metabolizing fade can keep pressure on marines much more effectively as it doesn't have to go back to hive to heal. This adds more slippery slope to the game, meaning less stalemates. I never liked they way it was in 1.04, where fades were only available with 2nd hive and were autowin without any skill element. In v2 and especially v3, the fade would still be effective with 1-hive, but to a lot less degree than with two hives. You can basically achieve the same effect with passive upgrades only, but I think lifeform abilities take more skill and are generally more fun. Also the fact that hives auto-enable abilities add a lot of upbeat fun tempo to the game.
The pres/tres distiction is basically a value choice between better balancing and more depth. Symmetric resource system can scale very well but my personal preference would to have the game working on small subset number of team sizes with much more interesting games than trying to reach to microscopic or astroscopic player numbers. I've thought a lot about this, and without doing some really weird/crazy resource flow ideas, there's not really going around this dilemma. With common res pool for marines, the commander always faces the choice between maximum number of upgrade paths which is good for the game. The constant consumption of med and ammo will also mean that lerk spores will play an important role, and the commander has always to use resources, instead of farming turrets.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1890240:date=Dec 14 2011, 12:38 PM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Dec 14 2011, 12:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890240"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The pres/tres distiction is basically a value choice between better balancing and more depth. Symmetric resource system can scale very well but my personal preference would to have the game working on small subset number of team sizes with much more interesting games than trying to reach to microscopic or astroscopic player numbers. I've thought a lot about this, and without doing some really weird/crazy resource flow ideas, there's not really going around this dilemma. With common res pool for marines, the commander always faces the choice between maximum number of upgrade paths which is good for the game. The constant consumption of med and ammo will also mean that lerk spores will play an important role, and the commander has always to use resources, instead of farming turrets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree that alot of depth in commander decision making have been lost due to the introduction of personal res. However, the I don't think that sticking with personal res is a completely bad idea, even though it causes less trade-offs.
Personal res gives access to more weapons/lifeforms on both sides compared with NS1. It gives all players on each team a chance to play the class they wish, which is most evident on the aliens atm. As in NS1, alien players had to think about using their resources for structures, which meant only the best players could be the lifeforms. In NS2, everyone gets a chance to play with the lifeforms/weapons. Personal res also balances with player count.
One thing I would really like to see, is an upgrade on harvesters/extractors, like we had in the earlier versions. But they should only increase personal res income for the commander, not the whole team like it was before. That would give you a way to invest your team resources(which you use for upgrades etc.) in supporting your team with meds/ammo etc. Slower upgrades for more supporting, the same trade-off NS1 had.
In my opinion one of the things that breaks the res model the most, is abilities tied to energy. They are independent from the resources, and at the same time the resource model have holes that these abilities could help fill. Holes, such as alien commander not having anything to spend personal res on, which means even more lifeforms in mid-late game. If the triggered abilities of the alien chambers were tied to personal res, they would be alot less spammed, as their overall effectiveness would be down to the resource flow.
Also, the aliens have a very easy time expanding compared to marines, marines have to interact with extractors to build them, aliens don't. I believe that could be solved by a cost increase on harvesters.
Another thing, unrelated but important, is Crag healing is stacking, an issue that was solved during the development of NS1. Same issue should be adressed in NS2.
I think you've identified most points contributing to the boring hard battle lines which are forming too (where progress into the other teams territory can only be made by full team pushes). Which - while an important part of gameplay- reduces high risk high reward strategies and unexpected lead changes.
Expiry timers on offensive buildings would indeed help to open up the map (not many options when OC spam is the gorges main roll). I'd also add removing the horrible horrible SOF effects on the DI and reduce the size of the DI spread per cyst to allow building sized gaps (ninja phase gates, offensive beacons etc).
Once the map is opened up we might be able to get some nice lead change see-sawing within each game and force some active and intelligent defense.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
I like the idea of hydras expiring after some time, the cost would obviously need to be reduced a bit.
Another idea that could achieve something like it, but different; let the hydras die when the gorge dies. Maybe even combine the two ideas.
I also think turrets should be limited to be within a certain range of the robotics factory. That would make it alot more expensive/unviable to cover the whole map with them.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1892189:date=Dec 31 2011, 02:36 AM:name=_Thresh_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Thresh_ @ Dec 31 2011, 02:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892189"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd also add removing the horrible horrible SOF effects on the DI and reduce the size of the DI spread per cyst to allow building sized gaps (ninja phase gates, offensive beacons etc).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed.
My original suggestion for expiring turrets/hydras didn't really say anything about how it should be done, but it's really easy to implement. Just make hydras die after a set amount of time, 30 seconds for example, and make turrets "suicide" when they run out of ammo (also need to tweak ammo numbers and remove the comm's ability to reload them). Damage output on both should be boosted slightly. The idea is to make them very situational support weapons instead of farm animals. Could also lower hydra and turret costs slightly, but need to be very careful about that. There should be a significant down side to dropping either -- the comm or gorge should have to make a conscious choice, and take a risk in terms of possibly wasting the res, when he drops one.
<!--quoteo(post=1892324:date=Jan 2 2012, 07:29 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Jan 2 2012, 07:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892324"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another idea that could achieve something like it, but different; let the hydras die when the gorge dies. Maybe even combine the two ideas.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grab your shotguns kids, we're going gorge hunting!
Comments
So adding more abiltities to a CC energy would make building more CC's valuable to the marines. Arguable, you should have nanoshield, medpack and ammopack all come from the same resource, so moving them to the CC energy pool could work. If you accept that medpacks/ammopacks/nanoshields don't scale with number of players, of course...
You could fix that problem by making medpacks and ammo packs a slight area effect, like the nanoshield, and increasing their cost to match.
That way the more marines there are, the more you can hit with the power.
Wouldn't completely eliminate it but would help it scale some, and make it easier to drop them on marines.
That way the more marines there are, the more you can hit with the power.
Wouldn't completely eliminate it but would help it scale some, and make it easier to drop them on marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you make health- and ammokits area of effect you have to make it a charger instead of instant effect because it'd be insanely powerfull.
Yeah, I was actually thinking of a sort of healing cloud would be better than the medpack system we have currently, as not only would it be easier to aim and scale better but it would also allow you to fix the annoying 'drop medpacks on marine to make them invincible' thing.
/Agrees with (all of) what you said
So adding more abiltities to a CC energy would make building more CC's valuable to the marines. Arguable, you should have nanoshield, medpack and ammopack all come from the same resource, so moving them to the CC energy pool could work. If you accept that medpacks/ammopacks/nanoshields don't scale with number of players, of course...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just can't see the sense in putting it to a resource that is basicly undependent on the rest of the game.
Yes, CC energy still needs map control, but you actually just end up limiting the use of your abilities, instead of giving more access to them with more resources. Resources could scale with current player numbers. Simple calculation in the code?
It's a RTS/FPS blend, main objective should be to get more resources than the other team, and outplay them.
And I think adding the abilities to your resources would help reflect that.
Most strategy games generally have more than one type of resource point, because having to control different map areas for different things is strategically interesting.
About the only one that doesn't do that is command and conquer, but most other ones use it and benefit from it, starcraft has its crystal and its gas, dawn of war has requisition and power, supreme commander has power and mass, which are collected in two entirely different ways, one by expansion, the other by base building, which is very interesting. Company of heroes has three resources, manpower, ammo, and fuel. That's really quite interesting because ammo is solely spent on off map abilities, and a few unit upgrades, but basically ammo is your support power ability, and the game plays out very differently depending on whether you can secure lots of fuel, manpower, or ammo. Ammo heavy players tend to be able to fire lots of support powers but they lack heavy armor. Fuel heavy players can mass armor but an ammo heavy player can give his units AT weapons and call support powers to destroy the other player's tanks. Manpower management can completely cripple a player who doesn't watch what he builds and keeps all his units in play, as building lots of units cuts manpower income. The three resource mechanic actually brings a whole new level of asymmetry to the game, as you have to adapt what tools you use to what sort of money you have, it's one of the game's strongest points.
This is a team based game (more than one player per side), and is intended to be primarily a pick-up and go experience that doesn't break when people aren't working in near perfect tandem.
Having a "support pool" res that paid for all kind of in-field support would probably be better than having CC energy paying for NanoShield, personal res paying for med/ammo packs and tres paying for other stuff. Exactly how that pool should be filled (CC's, upgrades, RTs, paying tres) can be adjusted to fit.
As a bonus, marines could loose energy as a concept completly, while keeping it on the alien side, thus adding more asymmetry to the game.
This is a team based game (more than one player per side), and is intended to be primarily a pick-up and go experience that doesn't break when people aren't working in near perfect tandem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then aliens should not need hives for tech, because that does exactly the same thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1889063:date=Dec 8 2011, 07:31 AM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Dec 8 2011, 07:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The difference between energy and resources right now is that energy is bound to a specific building and has a cap, while resorces accumulate for the team and person. Which makes using up the energy a bit frustrating (and confusing - placing cysts can be done anywhere, but the energy has to come from a specific hive). Nanashield will have tbe same problem - ie, you need to have the CC selected to trigger nanoshield, while you don't need it for the packs.
Having a "support pool" res that paid for all kind of in-field support would probably be better than having CC energy paying for NanoShield, personal res paying for med/ammo packs and tres paying for other stuff. Exactly how that pool should be filled (CC's, upgrades, RTs, paying tres) can be adjusted to fit.
As a bonus, marines could loose energy as a concept completly, while keeping it on the alien side, thus adding more asymmetry to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The energy implementation could use some improvement certainly.
I wouldn't change the functionality, but I would change how you access it.
Rather than accessing it from individual CCs, it should be accessed from an overall energy pool, of course it's still provided by CCs and still capped by them, it's just rather than having three CCs with 200 cap and 1 income each, you just have a central pool with 600 cap and 3 income.
You should also put this in for alien hives as having to go to specific hives to get cysts is a little irritating. Although for aliens you could make it so that the hives need to be connected together via infestation to get the central pool, just for fun.
Once you've done this, just add a little bar on the right of the screen that lets you select your various support powers and fire them, just like in company of heroes, or any RTS with off-map support.
Should work just dandy.
Not sure if that's what you meant by a single pool thing.
As a bonus, marines could loose energy as a concept completly, while keeping it on the alien side, thus adding more asymmetry to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with personal res being this support pool, as it is already made like this for most support stuff for the marine commander, other stuff with energy just isn't apart of this system, yet?
Hence the huge gaps in the res model, and the amount of abilities that you just recover over time if you have a specific building.
I disagree with the aliens having this 3rd resource for most of their stuff.
Which makes their abilities independent from the actual resource flow, and all the structures have different pools, which makes spamming them a very good option.
It could be made to have one large energy pool, but that would be alot more work(and more balancing issues) with almost the same outcome as changing it to Personal Res.
Having energy for the abilities instead of personal res, gives aliens access to more lifeforms or hydras.
This could help balance that out as well, as it is quite obvious that aliens can access too many lifeforms at the moment.
All this, is a small change(simple variable changes?), for a more complete resource model.
When more stuff arrives, there will still be room for it in the resource system. More trade-offs.
<b>1. The Tres/Pres system isn't working so great.</b>
Part of the problem is that it limits comms too much, especially with regards to dropping ammo/meds to marines in the field. It also happens to ruin the "Should I drop stuff for this marine or is it better to save up for this upgrade right now?" decisionmaking that was so important for comms in NS1. When Pres doesn't actually add anything to the gameplay, it makes no sense to have it. The sooner the Tres/Pres differentiation for marines is axed, the better.
<b>2. Having a resources/energy system makes sense, but only if costs are categorized according to gameplay needs.</b>
Scan should cost energy, beacon should cost resources (I won't elaborate on why here, it has been mentioned enough times already). Ignoring gameplay considerations in order to implement a unifying model for resources/energy is the wrong path to take.
<b>3. Nano shield is a good idea, but the current implementation is worse than not having it at all.</b>
Hard counters are great in pure RTS games, but not so much in an RTS/FPS hybrid. The problem is that said counter is incredibly frustrating for the field players. Playing as an alien against an ability that makes your opponent invincible is just frustrating. It isn't that much better for the marine either, because at some point all the aliens will learn that as soon as the blue glob drops you better run the hell away until it runs out, which will make for very disjointed combat. What nanoshield should be, is a boost, similar to catpacks in NS1. For the duration it's activated on you by the comm, you get a boost to your armor.
That way aliens can actually make a conscious choice whether to run away, instead of being faced with the binary choice of run away or die we have right now. I can't stress how important the difference between those two situations are. I would go as far as to say that it's the difference between nano shield cheapening gameplay and nano shield deepening gameplay.
<b>4. The current alien attack to marine health/armor ratios are a mess.</b>
They weren't perfect in NS1 either, so this is a good chance to improve on the original. The problem is that it isn't as intuitive as it should be for the players. Ideally, each armor level should profer a specific advantage on the individual marine in terms of exactly how many specific alien attacks it takes to kill him from full health/armor.
Take the skulk as an example: Right now, the mechanics against armor level 0 marines, where it takes exactly two bites and a parasite to kill a marine, is beautiful. This adds both an incentive for players to use parasite and an element of skill (and humiliation!). The players can use bite and parasite in conjunction when attacking to be more effective, but it takes a bit of practice and steady hands to use it to your advantage. The armor 1 upgrade should then either make it take exactly three skulk bites and a parasite to kill a marine or make it take exactly three skulk bites (the NS1 model). The advantage with the second model is that it balances armor 1 against weapon 1, whereas the first model makes armor 1 always superior to weapon 1 as the first upgrade.
Ideally this should continue up the chain and also synergize with the other alien attacks. In NS1, armor 1 didn't add more bites to kill a marine for a skulk, it only negated the parasite attack, but it did however add an extra attack for fades to kill a marine, making it extremly important a bit later in the game.
Obviously this would need a bit of work to get right, is absolutely limited by maths, and I don't have an absolute answer to how it all should fit together, but here's a quick suggestion of how it should ideally be:
Vs. skulk:
A0: 3 bites or 2 bites + 1 parasite.
A1: 3 bites or 2 bites + many, many parasites.
A2: 4 bites or 3 bites + 1 parasite.
A3: 4 bites or 3 bites + many, many parasites.
Vs. fade:
A0: Two swipes.
A1: Three swipes.
A2: Three swipes (adding a fourth swipe for the fade is a huge advantage, so it needs to cost a little extra to get there).
A3: Four swipes.
Vs onos:
A0: Two gores.
A1: Two gores.
A2: Three gores.
A3: Three gores.
This would also synergize with lerk and gorge attacks, in that a certain amount of hits from them reduces the amount of attacks the other lifeforms have to hit to kill the marine. For example, while A2 doesn't help the marine survive more swipes from a fade, but it should help him survive more other attacks before the fade can kill him in two swipes. You could also synergize different lifeforms in this model, for example make it so that a skulk bite on an A2 marine lets the onos kill him in two gores, while an A3 marine can still surive three onos gores even after being hit once by a skulk bite.
<b>5. The current movement systems are too limited and don't reward time spent practicing.</b>
The worst offender is the fade blink, as has been discussed to death in other threads, but this also applies almost as much to the gorge and marine and even the skulk. The only currently implemented player class that has any appreciable depth to its movement system is the lerk.
I'm going to be very blunt here and say that the marine sprint and gorge belly slide are good examples of what you shouldn't do when designing a movement system in a melee vs. ranged game. They have absolutely zero depth and once the novelty factor wears off after a couple of hours of play, they simply become a button you press to do something, but since it's so easy and there's no way to improve their performance through practice, and everybody does it, they don't actually add anything to the gameplay.
In fact, I would go as far as to say that gameplay would be better if both sprint and belly slide were removed, even if nothing was added in their stead. Belly slide might be possible to salvage through some changes that add meaningful player input to how well it works, but sprinting is completely useless in terms of what it adds to gameplay (nothing).
<b>6. The gorge is the noob class</b>
This has also been discussed heavily before, in tandem with the addition of the alien comm and the removal of vital building functions from the gorge. Right now, the gorge is a hydra/cyst dropping healing dispenser, and it takes a very short time to learn everything there is to learn about gorging in NS2. No surprise then that all the worst players tend to default to going gorge. That in itself isn't so bad, the problem is that there's absolutely zero reason for a good player to go gorge, because there's nothing he can do as a gorge that "Bob NSPlayer", who has had the game since last week, can't do equally well.
The obvious solution to this is making the gorge more combat oriented. That doesn't mean you have to play combat gorge, if you want to sit back and build hydra farms you can, but it should be possible and it should reward players who take the time to practice doing it. To do that you first have to implement a meaningful movement system for the gorge and then you have to improve his primary weapon, the spit gun. The spit gun is actually a great weapon, in that it is one of very few non-hitscan weapons in the game, that actually takes a lot of practice and skill to use effectively. The best way to improve it would be to drastically lower its energy cost and possibly also boost its damage output slightly.
I would also argue that the alien comm is just as meaningless as the recently axed multiple commanders, but I'll leave that for another day.
Vs. skulk:
A0: 3 bites or 2 bites + 1 parasite.
A1: 3 bites or 2 bites + many, many parasites.
A2: 4 bites or 3 bites + 1 parasite.
A3: 4 bites or 3 bites + many, many parasites.
Vs. fade:
A0: Two swipes.
A1: Three swipes.
A2: Three swipes (adding a fourth swipe for the fade is a huge advantage, so it needs to cost a little extra to get there).
A3: Four swipes.
Vs onos:
A0: Two gores.
A1: Two gores.
A2: Three gores.
A3: Three gores.
This would also synergize with lerk and gorge attacks, in that a certain amount of hits from them reduces the amount of attacks the other lifeforms have to hit to kill the marine. For example, while A2 doesn't help the marine survive more swipes from a fade, but it should help him survive more other attacks before the fade can kill him in two swipes. You could also synergize different lifeforms in this model, for example make it so that a skulk bite on an A2 marine lets the onos kill him in two gores, while an A3 marine can still surive three onos gores even after being hit once by a skulk bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, the damage system should be a cat and mouse process, get ahead see benefit, get behind, feel it. The new system feels more like pudding.
I think aliens need some kind of improved late game scaling. The pres system means that ramping up lifeforms isn't going to be as effective as it used to be, so aliens really need to figure out some ways to go further than the big lifeform blooms when the res peak players start affording a lifeform or tech gets unlocked.
I don't know if the basic dmg/armor upgrades are the way to go, but they're one possibility. The implementation has to improve though.
The introduction of pres/tres has made both the marine and alien ecologies go completely bonkers. The resource flow is still more or less balanced around the old NS1 system, but the pres/tres distinction (combined with player bought guns on the marine side) has really shaken things up. It's having a lot of unintended side effects, especially on the amount of higher tier lifeforms and guns in play. I don't have the actual quote available, but a few years back Flayra stated that their goal was to make skulk vs. marine lmg gameplay even more prominent, as that seemed to be what players enjoyed the most in NS1 (I know I did). Unfortunately, the current pres flow for both marines and aliens is leading to exactly the opposite results. Outside of the initial two minutes of gameplay, suddenly there's a gradual incline in the amount of advanced guns and higher tier lifeforms. Depending on who's winning, at around 6-8 minutes into the game, at least one of the teams will either almost entirely be outfitted with gls or sgs or consist mostly of fades/lerks/gorges. How to fix that is an entirely different debate though.
I don't think many people realize it yet, or I'm just wrong, but the current system is a step backwards, and is needlessly hurting the game.
We need some hardcore/talented NS players stepping in with development (gameplay/balance/mechanics).
This is the thing that bothers me the most. I think it might be worth to have a res model thread sometime soon and try to figure out which parts are functional, which can be fixed and which have to be rebuild somehow. Right now it often feels that there are little adjustments and fine tuning made to things that need wrecking ball more than anything else.
Obviously movement skills need implementing at some point.
Also yes to res model needing a good examination.
Edit: Fana, I think you should make a series of topics on each of those points you made for proper discussion. Just for kicks!!!
I think gameplay could benefit a lot from making both hydras and turrets expire after a set duration to promote more active use instead of farming.
Edit: I have some ideas about that but it might take a while before it happens!!!
Some thoughts:
Resource pool for support abilities.
How do we actually want support abilities to be used?
1. Should it be constant amount of use through out the game?
2. Should it increase slowly as the game progresses?
3. Should it be able to be used as a way to 'end game' (eg, nano spamming)?
2/3 is hinting at a pres/energy based on CC system (IE you can increase your support abilities by building extra res/tech nodes
1 is hinting at a system similar to hive energy, but capped at 1 'hive' worth.
Current Armor system
How do we actually want game play to change throughout the game?
Obviously with melee upgrades taken out, marines become harder and harder to kill. If you combat that with better survivability on alien side as well, you're gona end up with early game = quick/ambush type attacks, and end game being drawn out battles. Consider that for a game to reach endgame, it means the skills of both teams are relatively balanced.. Then add on top of that drawn out battles, it will just increase the 'stalemate' situation, regardless of any sort of sentry turret/hydra spamming issues.
LMG vs Skulk gametime
I love the lmg vs skulk combat (both sides). Would love to see it extended.
What things can we introduce that will extend the 'tier 1' combat?
Slower resource gaining speed?
Take out pres from kills?
Harder to Tech up? (Ie Hive 2 vs CC 2?)
So integrating abilities into the resource system is complicated and unintuitive?
Regarding the alien melee / armor upgrades; I haven't thought this through but my intuition tells me that it doesn't add much into the game. In NS1, aliens would have to be more creative to counter marine upgrades. The asymmetric nature of the game meant, that aliens would have to take focus, onos, leap, umbra etc. to counter late-game tech instead of racing this symmetric weapon upgrade race. I think asymmetric features keep the gameplay more interesting and versatile.
I'd also like to emphasize the nature of hives. In NS1, the hives always brought the game to another level. For example in NS1, metabolizing fade can keep pressure on marines much more effectively as it doesn't have to go back to hive to heal. This adds more slippery slope to the game, meaning less stalemates. I never liked they way it was in 1.04, where fades were only available with 2nd hive and were autowin without any skill element. In v2 and especially v3, the fade would still be effective with 1-hive, but to a lot less degree than with two hives. You can basically achieve the same effect with passive upgrades only, but I think lifeform abilities take more skill and are generally more fun. Also the fact that hives auto-enable abilities add a lot of upbeat fun tempo to the game.
The pres/tres distiction is basically a value choice between better balancing and more depth. Symmetric resource system can scale very well but my personal preference would to have the game working on small subset number of team sizes with much more interesting games than trying to reach to microscopic or astroscopic player numbers. I've thought a lot about this, and without doing some really weird/crazy resource flow ideas, there's not really going around this dilemma. With common res pool for marines, the commander always faces the choice between maximum number of upgrade paths which is good for the game. The constant consumption of med and ammo will also mean that lerk spores will play an important role, and the commander has always to use resources, instead of farming turrets.
I agree that alot of depth in commander decision making have been lost due to the introduction of personal res.
However, the I don't think that sticking with personal res is a completely bad idea, even though it causes less trade-offs.
Personal res gives access to more weapons/lifeforms on both sides compared with NS1.
It gives all players on each team a chance to play the class they wish, which is most evident on the aliens atm.
As in NS1, alien players had to think about using their resources for structures, which meant only the best players could be the lifeforms.
In NS2, everyone gets a chance to play with the lifeforms/weapons.
Personal res also balances with player count.
One thing I would really like to see, is an upgrade on harvesters/extractors, like we had in the earlier versions. But they should only increase personal res income for the commander, not the whole team like it was before.
That would give you a way to invest your team resources(which you use for upgrades etc.) in supporting your team with meds/ammo etc.
Slower upgrades for more supporting, the same trade-off NS1 had.
In my opinion one of the things that breaks the res model the most, is abilities tied to energy.
They are independent from the resources, and at the same time the resource model have holes that these abilities could help fill.
Holes, such as alien commander not having anything to spend personal res on, which means even more lifeforms in mid-late game.
If the triggered abilities of the alien chambers were tied to personal res, they would be alot less spammed, as their overall effectiveness would be down to the resource flow.
Also, the aliens have a very easy time expanding compared to marines, marines have to interact with extractors to build them, aliens don't.
I believe that could be solved by a cost increase on harvesters.
Another thing, unrelated but important, is Crag healing is stacking, an issue that was solved during the development of NS1.
Same issue should be adressed in NS2.
I think you've identified most points contributing to the boring hard battle lines which are forming too (where progress into the other teams territory can only be made by full team pushes). Which - while an important part of gameplay- reduces high risk high reward strategies and unexpected lead changes.
Expiry timers on offensive buildings would indeed help to open up the map (not many options when OC spam is the gorges main roll). I'd also add removing the horrible horrible SOF effects on the DI and reduce the size of the DI spread per cyst to allow building sized gaps (ninja phase gates, offensive beacons etc).
Once the map is opened up we might be able to get some nice lead change see-sawing within each game and force some active and intelligent defense.
Another idea that could achieve something like it, but different; let the hydras die when the gorge dies.
Maybe even combine the two ideas.
I also think turrets should be limited to be within a certain range of the robotics factory.
That would make it alot more expensive/unviable to cover the whole map with them.
Agreed.
My original suggestion for expiring turrets/hydras didn't really say anything about how it should be done, but it's really easy to implement. Just make hydras die after a set amount of time, 30 seconds for example, and make turrets "suicide" when they run out of ammo (also need to tweak ammo numbers and remove the comm's ability to reload them). Damage output on both should be boosted slightly. The idea is to make them very situational support weapons instead of farm animals. Could also lower hydra and turret costs slightly, but need to be very careful about that. There should be a significant down side to dropping either -- the comm or gorge should have to make a conscious choice, and take a risk in terms of possibly wasting the res, when he drops one.
Maybe even combine the two ideas.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grab your shotguns kids, we're going gorge hunting!