swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2011
This is really one of the bigger problems of the game at the moment, here is my take on the energy costs, and my solution(which works): <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115515" target="_blank">Nano Shield, Beacon, Building energy doesn't scale with resource situation</a> Next time, try to read the forums before franticly posting a new thread in your moment of rage.
<!--quoteo(post=1888905:date=Dec 7 2011, 01:25 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Dec 7 2011, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like some of the other people above have pointed out. Cysts arn't the root of the problem - they have an energy cost and are easily killed. Its kind of ridiculous to get all in a huff about an alien comm spamming cysts which ruin games way less than turret spam. If they are spamming cysts in your base, then its end game and you should have lost already by rights or its early game and the alien comm is just wasting energy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The real problem is that there is no downside of wasting your energy, it just replenishes. And doesn't have alot, if any, trade-offs. My suggestion also solves that.
<!--quoteo(post=1889101:date=Dec 8 2011, 01:08 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Dec 8 2011, 01:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Next time, try to read the forums before franticly posting a new thread in your moment of rage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are u serious? You have problem with the system of resources, I have problem with the cyst spam. I dont have problem with the system atm, so before you franticly reply to a topic, try to understand my view.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
Increasing the self build time and only allowing cysts to be placed if the previous cyst in the chain has finished building would limit spam. Like 3-5 seconds per cyst.
Marines would stand a larger chance against oncoming infestation as it wouldn't be raining cysts on them like before. And this would increase the importance of an early game Gorge. Where the Gorge could get the res node all infested for the commander to drop a harvester and then link up the cysts.
Part of the problem I see with cysts can be easily explained. So, you hop in the hive as a commander, right? You purchase all the armor, weapon, and ability upgrades for your teammates, right? Now what do you do as a commander? You spam build as much stuff as you possibly can to support your team, and try to keep marines from pushing forward. Meanwhile, you've gained a ton of hive energy. What do you use it on? CYSTS! LOTS OF CYSTS! EVERYWHERE A CYST, CYST! So many cysts that Old MacDonald would have a farm just for cysts.
The biggest problem with this setup is that there aren't any repercussions to using all this energy, therefore, <i>who cares</i> if you used all that energy for cysts? In late games, you're seeing stalemates tons of times because the aliens have so many resources.
Fix? Easy. Make them cost res.
Now, every time a marine kills a cyst, the commander is in "oh crap" mode. I guarantee you he/she will never spam cysts again like that. This might affect how many Drifters are made and spammed now. No problem. Give the hive less energy to deal with, and I guarantee the commander will think twice about building twelve crags side by side.
The key note here is that less resources cause for smarter, well-thought decisions, and more resources cause for more careless, less-thought-out decisions.
i dont think res-cost for cyst would properly adress this problem. i'd prefer a cooldown (~3s) like some people pointed out already. so you can at least not bypass turrets / defending marines with cysts. 1. when marines attack the cysts, you can just instantly replace them even before they kill the first one (unless early in the game, or if they really kill a lot in a row). this feels kinda dull imo. 2. regardless if turrets are spammed or not, it feels out of place to use cysts to keep them busy all the time.
<!--quoteo(post=1890614:date=Dec 17 2011, 08:04 PM:name=aCId_rAIn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aCId_rAIn @ Dec 17 2011, 08:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890614"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What do you use it on? CYSTS! LOTS OF CYSTS! EVERYWHERE A CYST, CYST! So many cysts that Old MacDonald would have a farm just for cysts.
The biggest problem with this setup is that there aren't any repercussions to using all this energy, therefore, <i>who cares</i> if you used all that energy for cysts?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure if some of you have really actually played alien commander in 189 tbh. The opportunity cost and strategic ramifications of cyst spamming is very much there (within relevant game periods before it reaches stalemate heaven). They are not spammable unless something else is wrong such as long games due to turret spamming. The tradeoff for wasting cysts is obviously drifters and no cysts to expand for rt's which is kinda a big thing since the hive res increase. It already is an 'oh crap' moment when marines kill cysts in games that don't stretch out into infinity. Maye it could be more so with decreased hive energy regen, but with how weak cysts are atm, introducing a tres cost makes placing cysts more of a gamble than calculated gameplay.
I think its important to note that every cyst you kill reduces the ammount of energy the alien comm has during a fixed ammount of time whether or not its instantly replaced. Also note that cyst spam does not adversely affect marine teams that don't turret farm but actually benefits them. Cysts stacked in one area means narrow hive sight, less map/res control and less surface area in which sprint is slower - not to mention *cough* grenade launcher *cough*. Consider as well the local unit limit cap which takes into account both hostile and friendly structures/players.
<!--quoteo(post=1890614:date=Dec 17 2011, 08:04 PM:name=aCId_rAIn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aCId_rAIn @ Dec 17 2011, 08:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890614"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In late games, you're seeing stalemates tons of times because the aliens have so many resources.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not sure where this is coming from. Stalemates occur because of a lack of t3 tech for both sides, usually resulting in unbreakable turret farms that cause people to leave the server and kill games (a 'strategy' the OP constantly implements). Whether or not the current res system is imbalanced and allows aliens too many fades or not is a totally unrelated issue.
Turrets <b>should</b> not be an effective late game defensive bulwark if UWE wants to make a game that has any kind of depth of strategy. Which is why im saying if the alien comm has enough spare energy to spam cysts in any disruptive degree, then some other mechanic is wrong with the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1890625:date=Dec 17 2011, 12:37 PM:name=Laosh'Ra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Laosh'Ra @ Dec 17 2011, 12:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890625"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i dont think res-cost for cyst would properly adress this problem. i'd prefer a cooldown (~3s) like some people pointed out already. so you can at least not bypass turrets / defending marines with cysts. 1. when marines attack the cysts, you can just instantly replace them even before they kill the first one (unless early in the game, or if they really kill a lot in a row). this feels kinda dull imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->If they cost vital resources, aliens won't <i>want</i> to do that since it could've been spent on hives or upgrades. You don't see marine commanders dropping structures in the line of sight of hydras to draw their fire.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1890676:date=Dec 18 2011, 12:46 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Dec 18 2011, 12:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they cost vital resources, aliens won't <i>want</i> to do that since it could've been spent on hives or upgrades. You don't see marine commanders dropping structures in the line of sight of hydras to draw their fire.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Early game, energy is vital to allow you to reach the RT locations. During the research phase and waiting for 2nd hive, tres is tight. Once the second hive is dropped and the research is done, tres spending is limited by energy.
A hive regenerates 30 energy per minute. This is 2 cysts at 15 each or a single drifter (and some) at 25.
With buildings costing 10 tres, this limits alien spending to about 12 tres per hive and minute, assuming they don't drop any cysts. Considering that you gain 7.5 tres per minute per RT, you can spend the tres income from about 1.5 RTs per hive.
Again, assuming you don't drop any cysts. If you DO drop cysts, you WILL end up with more tres than you can spend.
So arguing that cysts should cost tres because it will stop the cyst spam ... no. That would make it worse.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1888907:date=Dec 7 2011, 01:30 PM:name=WizardHUN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WizardHUN @ Dec 7 2011, 01:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is no turret spam. 4/room.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a <b>mod</b> that does that, not the game. Sorry, but to me it seems like you're just whining about stuff, that you haven't really thought much about anyway. And this is not the only "hasty" thread you have made. If you are going to post a thread, make sure you make it clear what the problem is, and if it's even a problem at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1890678:date=Dec 18 2011, 01:03 AM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Dec 18 2011, 01:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890678"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Early game, energy is vital to allow you to reach the RT locations. During the research phase and waiting for 2nd hive, tres is tight. Once the second hive is dropped and the research is done, tres spending is limited by energy.
A hive regenerates 30 energy per minute. This is 2 cysts at 15 each or a single drifter (and some) at 25.
With buildings costing 10 tres, this limits alien spending to about 12 tres per hive and minute, assuming they don't drop any cysts. Considering that you gain 7.5 tres per minute per RT, you can spend the tres income from about 1.5 RTs per hive.
Again, assuming you don't drop any cysts. If you DO drop cysts, you WILL end up with more tres than you can spend.
So arguing that cysts should cost tres because it will stop the cyst spam ... no. That would make it worse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's why it makes sense to make them cost personal res. It will hold people off from doing silly tactics like; let's fill marine start with instantly dropped buildings to waste their time. Also, it gives the alien commander something to spend personal resources on, but he will definitly need more stuff to use it on, so there are more trade-offs, I think the triggered abilities of the chambers would be a good addition to this. The alien commander really needs something to spend his personal resources on, aliens can currently access too many lifeforms. It doesn't encourage commander rotation nearly as much as it encourages wise decisions. Another reason for my "get rid of energy" thread: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115515" target="_blank">Nano Shield, Beacon, Building energy doesn't scale with resource situation</a>
Could implement a system like they did in NS1 with Marine turrets and only allow a certain amount in different rooms depending on the size of the room.
I don't know... maybe these discussions aren't ready for discussion yet, as the game isn't fully matured. I can see everyone's point in each argument, but I just don't know if any of these ideas (including my own, even) are perfect for this.
After a long discussion, it seemed there were underlying problems that doing these types of fixes would only mask, not remove -- that is definitely not the way to go. I don't want to put duct tape over a rusty water pipe and call it a day.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1890705:date=Dec 18 2011, 06:56 AM:name=aCId_rAIn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aCId_rAIn @ Dec 18 2011, 06:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know... maybe these discussions aren't ready for discussion yet, as the game isn't fully matured.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much. The current resource system and infestation system is kinda like scaffolding - its good enough to hold the game up (ie, sorta playable) while its being built, but its going to be replaced/changed before the game is released.
Though I do think its good to have discussions like this because knowing the pros/cons of various systems is good.
And if the flaws of the current system isn't pointed out .. we could get stuck with it.
Comments
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115515" target="_blank">Nano Shield, Beacon, Building energy doesn't scale with resource situation</a>
Next time, try to read the forums before franticly posting a new thread in your moment of rage.
<!--quoteo(post=1888905:date=Dec 7 2011, 01:25 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Dec 7 2011, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like some of the other people above have pointed out. Cysts arn't the root of the problem - they have an energy cost and are easily killed. Its kind of ridiculous to get all in a huff about an alien comm spamming cysts which ruin games way less than turret spam. If they are spamming cysts in your base, then its end game and you should have lost already by rights or its early game and the alien comm is just wasting energy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The real problem is that there is no downside of wasting your energy, it just replenishes. And doesn't have alot, if any, trade-offs.
My suggestion also solves that.
Are u serious? You have problem with the system of resources, I have problem with the cyst spam. I dont have problem with the system atm, so before you franticly reply to a topic, try to understand my view.
Marines would stand a larger chance against oncoming infestation as it wouldn't be raining cysts on them like before. And this would increase the importance of an early game Gorge. Where the Gorge could get the res node all infested for the commander to drop a harvester and then link up the cysts.
The biggest problem with this setup is that there aren't any repercussions to using all this energy, therefore, <i>who cares</i> if you used all that energy for cysts? In late games, you're seeing stalemates tons of times because the aliens have so many resources.
Fix?
Easy.
Make them cost res.
Now, every time a marine kills a cyst, the commander is in "oh crap" mode. I guarantee you he/she will never spam cysts again like that. This might affect how many Drifters are made and spammed now. No problem. Give the hive less energy to deal with, and I guarantee the commander will think twice about building twelve crags side by side.
The key note here is that less resources cause for smarter, well-thought decisions, and more resources cause for more careless, less-thought-out decisions.
1. when marines attack the cysts, you can just instantly replace them even before they kill the first one (unless early in the game, or if they really kill a lot in a row). this feels kinda dull imo.
2. regardless if turrets are spammed or not, it feels out of place to use cysts to keep them busy all the time.
The biggest problem with this setup is that there aren't any repercussions to using all this energy, therefore, <i>who cares</i> if you used all that energy for cysts?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure if some of you have really actually played alien commander in 189 tbh. The opportunity cost and strategic ramifications of cyst spamming is very much there (within relevant game periods before it reaches stalemate heaven). They are not spammable unless something else is wrong such as long games due to turret spamming. The tradeoff for wasting cysts is obviously drifters and no cysts to expand for rt's which is kinda a big thing since the hive res increase. It already is an 'oh crap' moment when marines kill cysts in games that don't stretch out into infinity. Maye it could be more so with decreased hive energy regen, but with how weak cysts are atm, introducing a tres cost makes placing cysts more of a gamble than calculated gameplay.
I think its important to note that every cyst you kill reduces the ammount of energy the alien comm has during a fixed ammount of time whether or not its instantly replaced. Also note that cyst spam does not adversely affect marine teams that don't turret farm but actually benefits them. Cysts stacked in one area means narrow hive sight, less map/res control and less surface area in which sprint is slower - not to mention *cough* grenade launcher *cough*. Consider as well the local unit limit cap which takes into account both hostile and friendly structures/players.
<!--quoteo(post=1890614:date=Dec 17 2011, 08:04 PM:name=aCId_rAIn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aCId_rAIn @ Dec 17 2011, 08:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890614"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In late games, you're seeing stalemates tons of times because the aliens have so many resources.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure where this is coming from. Stalemates occur because of a lack of t3 tech for both sides, usually resulting in unbreakable turret farms that cause people to leave the server and kill games (a 'strategy' the OP constantly implements). Whether or not the current res system is imbalanced and allows aliens too many fades or not is a totally unrelated issue.
Turrets <b>should</b> not be an effective late game defensive bulwark if UWE wants to make a game that has any kind of depth of strategy. Which is why im saying if the alien comm has enough spare energy to spam cysts in any disruptive degree, then some other mechanic is wrong with the game.
1. when marines attack the cysts, you can just instantly replace them even before they kill the first one (unless early in the game, or if they really kill a lot in a row). this feels kinda dull imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->If they cost vital resources, aliens won't <i>want</i> to do that since it could've been spent on hives or upgrades. You don't see marine commanders dropping structures in the line of sight of hydras to draw their fire.
Early game, energy is vital to allow you to reach the RT locations. During the research phase and waiting for 2nd hive, tres is tight. Once the second hive is dropped and the research is done, tres spending is limited by energy.
A hive regenerates 30 energy per minute. This is 2 cysts at 15 each or a single drifter (and some) at 25.
With buildings costing 10 tres, this limits alien spending to about 12 tres per hive and minute, assuming they don't drop any cysts.
Considering that you gain 7.5 tres per minute per RT, you can spend the tres income from about 1.5 RTs per hive.
Again, assuming you don't drop any cysts. If you DO drop cysts, you WILL end up with more tres than you can spend.
So arguing that cysts should cost tres because it will stop the cyst spam ... no. That would make it worse.
That's a <b>mod</b> that does that, not the game.
Sorry, but to me it seems like you're just whining about stuff, that you haven't really thought much about anyway.
And this is not the only "hasty" thread you have made.
If you are going to post a thread, make sure you make it clear what the problem is, and if it's even a problem at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1890678:date=Dec 18 2011, 01:03 AM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Dec 18 2011, 01:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890678"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Early game, energy is vital to allow you to reach the RT locations. During the research phase and waiting for 2nd hive, tres is tight. Once the second hive is dropped and the research is done, tres spending is limited by energy.
A hive regenerates 30 energy per minute. This is 2 cysts at 15 each or a single drifter (and some) at 25.
With buildings costing 10 tres, this limits alien spending to about 12 tres per hive and minute, assuming they don't drop any cysts.
Considering that you gain 7.5 tres per minute per RT, you can spend the tres income from about 1.5 RTs per hive.
Again, assuming you don't drop any cysts. If you DO drop cysts, you WILL end up with more tres than you can spend.
So arguing that cysts should cost tres because it will stop the cyst spam ... no. That would make it worse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's why it makes sense to make them cost personal res.
It will hold people off from doing silly tactics like; let's fill marine start with instantly dropped buildings to waste their time.
Also, it gives the alien commander something to spend personal resources on, but he will definitly need more stuff to use it on, so there are more trade-offs, I think the triggered abilities of the chambers would be a good addition to this.
The alien commander really needs something to spend his personal resources on, aliens can currently access too many lifeforms.
It doesn't encourage commander rotation nearly as much as it encourages wise decisions.
Another reason for my "get rid of energy" thread:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115515" target="_blank">Nano Shield, Beacon, Building energy doesn't scale with resource situation</a>
After a long discussion, it seemed there were underlying problems that doing these types of fixes would only mask, not remove -- that is definitely not the way to go. I don't want to put duct tape over a rusty water pipe and call it a day.
Pretty much. The current resource system and infestation system is kinda like scaffolding - its good enough to
hold the game up (ie, sorta playable) while its being built, but its going to be replaced/changed before the game is released.
Though I do think its good to have discussions like this because knowing the pros/cons of various systems
is good.
And if the flaws of the current system isn't pointed out .. we could get stuck with it.