That still seems kinda complex, I mean you'd presumably end up with a bunch of fork points, and what happens if you connect a fork to a hive? You'd end up with the trailing end suddenly being the root, which would produce kinda weird effects I'm thinking.
It seems like that sort of tree-like structure would either get very complicated very quickly, or be somewhat pointless. I mean taking summit as an example, I think I'd probably just run one big vine through the level, it's not like there'd be much reason to branch after all, the level is basically a circle with a line through it. By the time you want to branch you'd have another hive to run it off.
Unless of course you need to branch to fill out rooms in which case it seems like managing infestation in rooms would quickly become kinda annoying, as you'd have loads of little twigs coming off the main body of the root.
Plus the idea of branching making the vine stronger seems odd, it sounds like the best way to use the system would be to just run one thin line all through the level then spam a bunch of branches at the end to make the line really tough, but you'd kinda expect the opposite to be true because you'd think all the offshoots would make it weaker.
It still seems complicated.
The reason i don't really like any of the actual network style suggestions is that none of them really work well with rooms. Having actual tracked connections between nodes like that produces kinda messy structures when you try to expand out to fill a room and then also treat the room as one big blob for the purposes of running new connections off the room. You can see it currently with cysts, the connection system doesn't handle rooms very well, and rooms are in some ways more of a liability because of the poor connection handlng inherent to the hierarchical node system. You can quite easily mess with the connectivity by killing a few cysts in a room, when really speaking rooms should be the strongest parts of the infestation, because there's masses of it in there and probably some structures as well.
The only way I think to fix that is to remove the hierarchy part, and just change it to a simple binary format. Is it connected to the hive? Yes/no, and also by massively increasing the network density so that shooting one cyst won't cut the chain. The amount of infestation present dictates strength, not how many cysts or other support structures there are. This would mean network strength is strongest wherever there is plenty of room to grow, and plenty of time to build up.
<!--quoteo(post=1890918:date=Dec 19 2011, 08:54 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 19 2011, 08:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890918"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That still seems kinda complex, I mean you'd presumably end up with a bunch of fork points, and what happens if you connect a fork to a hive? You'd end up with the trailing end suddenly being the root, which would produce kinda weird effects I'm thinking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I imagine each new hive would spawn a new root vine. Connecting two different system would reinforce both of them.
<!--quoteo(post=1890918:date=Dec 19 2011, 08:54 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 19 2011, 08:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890918"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems like that sort of tree-like structure would either get very complicated very quickly, or be somewhat pointless. I mean taking summit as an example, I think I'd probably just run one big vine through the level, it's not like there'd be much reason to branch after all, the level is basically a circle with a line through it. By the time you want to branch you'd have another hive to run it off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Risk - gain gamble. It would be faster to just have one single vine grow through the entire level. On the other hand, if you wait to long to branch the entire vein could quickly die to a single marine with a hatchet. I imagine cutting a vine would kill it back to the latest fork. Also having multiple vines running alongside wouldn't be slower, but would have had a greater invested cost.
<!--quoteo(post=1890918:date=Dec 19 2011, 08:54 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 19 2011, 08:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890918"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unless of course you need to branch to fill out rooms in which case it seems like managing infestation in rooms would quickly become kinda annoying, as you'd have loads of little twigs coming off the main body of the root.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shooting out a bunch is quicker but cost more. You can also have fewer and snake them through the room. I imagine about 3-4 vines would be good to fill out a fairly large room if you're not in a great hurry.
<!--quoteo(post=1890918:date=Dec 19 2011, 08:54 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 19 2011, 08:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890918"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Plus the idea of branching making the vine stronger seems odd, it sounds like the best way to use the system would be to just run one thin line all through the level then spam a bunch of branches at the end to make the line really tough, but you'd kinda expect the opposite to be true because you'd think all the offshoots would make it weaker.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Think of it like this; the hive isn't stupid. It pumps in more power in a more complex tree to fuel the needs of it. It also works pretty well for game-play purposes :)
Very interesting idea guys. I'll throw my two cents into this. My idea was to have the cyst with the highest upgrade nearest or a set distance to the harvester give a resource buffer. Possibly adding something slight like 10% per upgrade on the cyst and also a limit to the buffer for game balance. Would reinforce the importance for resources control and give the Marines more of a reason to attack harvesters behind the lines. Hope it give you guys some new ideas and keep up the good work.
I've just been skimming through these posts. I've seen some of Chris' comments about infestation destruction. I'm getting the feeling he may be against the cyst-node idea? Maybe I'm wrong about that -- but this is the way I feel in general.
I had always assumed when the cyst was introduced, that it was a somewhat temporary solution until the infestation mechanics could be worked out fully. I personally like a node-less infestation concept, much like what was shown in the really early (first) infestation video. Maybe it's just aesthetics, but having nodes all over the place seems clumsy and a bit bothersome. It would be ideal for the infestation to be like a fungus looking stuff just caked all over every surface. Like in Aliens, right? Some sort of secreted resin ;D.
This networking idea seems to be doing great for the placement and pathing of infestation; I guess I just don't like the idea of the nodes being seen. I guess I don't have any good solutions to throw out there -- I just wanted to express my feeling on the cyst structures and the deviation the infestation model is taking from a free-growing type concept.
Quick idea: since areas are supposed to be cleary defined in terms of territory (like what is done with lighting) why can't the same be done for infestation? Resource points, power sockets, or command station points could be used as the source that extends to a given area. *shrug* I'm sure a lot of thought had gone into the implementation; I'm just wishing for that image I originally had on the infestation model.
<!--quoteo(post=1891043:date=Dec 20 2011, 04:44 PM:name=Fluid Core)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fluid Core @ Dec 20 2011, 04:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1891043"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But, are you against vines? ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a lot better on the 'feel' side, but I remain skeptical as to whether it would work on the gameplay side. I still think it'd be a lot harder to use than having infestation just be one contiguous blob with no connective structure beyond itself. I also think it'd be harder to solve the useability problems with it than it would be to solve the ones with infestation being too hard to remove under the other system.
I don't really mind blobs myself, but if it grows by itself you would need to stop the growth for a while nearby where the blob takes damage or so to prevent it from just growing back together if you try to shoot it of. Since bullets are so small, the area would have to be significantly larger then the actual bullet, and I feel it would be hard to balance it so that you can still severe infestation across a hallway, while not making it so that you can spray the entire length so that all would disappears.
That's is one of the reasons that I would go with vines, the other being that I could have incredible fun with creating the ultimate network. Always liked tower defense games where you build the maze yourself, and this is a similar approach :)
Well, actually, I was thinking it'd be fairly easy to overcome regeneration with bullets.
I mean without cysts it should take say ten minutes or so to fill a room with infestation, that's pretty slow growth.
Assume two marines with rifles come into a corridor, they can fire 50 bullets in 2.5 seconds or so (I think that's the rifle fire rate) and they carry 200-250 bullets each (not sure if the bars on the ammo counter include the current clip).
That's enough bullets to do a fair amount of damage to infestation, they could quite easily use the rifles like knives to just cut a big line across the corridor, especially if the commander gives them ammo kits, and that's just with basic rifles.
Once you include things like damage upgrades you could make the bullets more effective, for things like shotguns you could include some special code to make it blast a big chunk out of the infestation (to balance out its limited number of bullets) and anything with an area effect would be really good at killing infestation if you keep it stocked with ammo. Marine bullets are apparently explosive if the decals are to be believed so it seems reasonable they'd affect a slightly larger area than the precise spot the bullet hits, and you could also argue it's collateral damage to the infestation from the impact.
Ultimately, marines would be using their primary weapons to clear infestation, which means that really speaking it should just be a matter of balancing bullets so that they clear a certain amount of infestation, the same thing that stops marines from destroying entire alien bases with one gun would stop them destroying entire rooms of infestation with one gun, it is not ammo effiicient to do so.
Marines are very good at damage dealing in short bursts, their problem is longevity due to their limited ammo, so it should be quite easy to make killing infestation quite easy in a small area, but hard over a large area, as it plays to natural marine strengths to favour focussed attacks.
If you want more complexity in the infestation you could make alien structures have a 'mutate infestation' mode where they stop doing their primary function and sort of burrow into the infestation a bit, and change its properties. So you could make shifts cause the infestation to slow marines down a bit, shades could make it produce an obscuring mist that aliens would be able to see through easily but marines would see as much thicker. Crags could make it tougher to damage or make any structures on it grow a sort of carapace over them. Whips could make it corrode marine armor slowly if they stand on it. You could represent all of this by blending into a new infestation texture around the structure, each a different colour and texture to symbolise the effects.
That's pretty tower defence, but you don't need to worry about it everywhere, it's complexity where you want to have complexity but the basic infestation is incredibly simple, so if you're just running a supply chain it's easy to do and you can mostly forget about it once you drop the cysts.
Yea, it could work. But would there be enough for the commander to do for it to be a fun experience? Wouldn't you just sat "accelerate growth in this direction" and then run to ambush a few marines and when you next visit the hive, take a quick peek, maybe change one direction and press on an upgrade? I feel it would have worked in ns1 with gorges being the accelerators, but in ns2 with a dedicated commander I think it would not be enough to do, nor enough to make an impact being a great commander and not just decent.
Although burrowing structures to make a secondary effect for the infestation sounds fun.. The Kharaa areas would be more bland then tho, unless you make the infestation really thick and wavy.
Well, the burrowed structures wouldn't stack with each other, so you'd have say one crag to mutate the infestation, one or more to do healing and umbra, you wouldn't just burrow all the structures. I also assume you couldn't stack different effects on each other so you'd have to choose what effects suit what areas. Obscuring mist could be very helpful on the frontlines around long corridors, while armored structures would be a lot better in a hive room with lots of structures.
You could also add more mutation effects, faster alien movement on infestation to set up highways for your units for example, improved energy regenration for structures to let you use the active abilities of other structures more often. There's lots of options.
I think what with cysts providing spread and regeneration, infestation types, structures in general and active abilities, whips being made more versatile, potentially as a sort of alien equivalent of the arc, and gorge hydra/cyst spitting there's plenty for the commander to do. He can do all the infestation and building and structure tweaking and suchlike, and any downtime he can spend filling out the hive room with hydras and well placed cysts, generally optimising his buildings, although I imagine there'd be plenty to do on the commander construction front.
If not you could always introduce some more active abilities, or triggered abilities on infestation, it'd be quite cool if making a hive a crag hive or a whip hive or whatever gave the hive the ability to fire off that structure's active ability anywhere on the infestation.
I definitely think any complexity/busy work you add should be optional, so you don't have to do it if you don't want to, but you can if you have the time. The trouble with making something as fundamental as infestation inherently complicated is that it might work fine on smaller maps, but on bigger maps with lots of infestation it could rapidly become a hindrance.
Aesthetically though yes infestation does need to be more interesting than a uniform green carpet. Aesthetic vines would be quite cool, as would all sorts of random visual things like little wavy lights on stalks growing out of the walls, the occasional patch of cillia waving around, glowing yellow spots that blink every now and then, there's loads of cool alien looking stuff you could include on the aesthetic side of infestation, as well as sound and atmospheric effects.
<!--quoteo(post=1890609:date=Dec 17 2011, 02:44 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 17 2011, 02:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it'd be much better if dropping a cyst made the infestation in the local area grow faster around the cyst, and also made it regenerate much faster when damaged. This allows cysts to serve as a means of controlling growth, and also of sustaining growth under tough conditions.
With this model, I think cysts should be droppable anywhere, and be able to keep themselves alive, but the infestation doesn't grow from them, it grows from the hive. Cysts just make it grow FASTER. So you can imagine the commander dropping a chain of cysts across the map, and maybe little spores or something come out of the hive and fly to the spots and seed a little cyst there. The cysts just sit there doing nothing, but then if you wait you see the infestation growing quickly across the map, from the hive room. I think it'd be pretty awesome as a marine, to walk into an area that maybe a gorge has hidden a bunch of cysts in, and to see this green stuff growing out of the doorway on the other side of the room and slowly spreading across the room as you walk across it. That's INFINITELY cooler than the current approach.
In order for infestation to stay alive, it needs to connect to the hive, but it does so simply by being connected, there's no vines or cyst network, if the infestation connects to the hive along its surface, it's sustained and grows freely. To cut off infestation marines have to isolate it completely from the hive, which means finding a narrow hallway and burning it clear and keeping it clear until the infestation dies off.
Things like structures are the specialised growth, killing them doesn't kill infestation, it just stops the structure from doing what it does.
If a patch of infestation is cut off from the hive, the structures on it should slow down, heal slower, active abilities don't work, the infestation recedes back to the cysts.
To kill infestation you would just damage it, with anything. Spray it with bullets, fire, grenades, whatever. Anything works, it just takes time and flamers would obviously be the best choice because they spread damage around a lot. Killing cysts would make it easier, but you still have to clear it yourself.
You could also add some new marine structures or structure functionality. A CC for example might be able to connect to the power node in a room and use it to clear infestation from the room it's in. You could also make a secondary mode for arcs which destroys infestation around them, like a constant sonic pulse or something.
I don't think that the cyst mechanic is the best or the only way to allow marines to clear infestation without flamethrowers. This system means you can site your bases to cut off infestation progress through the map, position arcs in the second mode to block it, and use your marines to attack weak points to cut off chains if they can keep alive long enough to do so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this suggestion is just.. so totally awesome. Sorry for sounding like a surf boarder, but really, this would be amazing to see and to use. However, a couple suggestions of tweaks or additions, generally they are pro-marine ideas because this seems to powerful for the kharaa:
One thing in particular which i like is the added use for the ARCs. It would actually make a single ARC incredibly powerful in the right situation. However, in the early game, the khaam could easily overtake the marines just by putting everything into sending out the infestation. Once the infestation is there, the marines with their level one abilities would be simply overwhelmed. It would also require ARCs for every game, and in long matches could drastically reduce the effectiveness of jet-packers.
-Chris suggested to give the CC the ability to clear infestation, but I'd suggest having power nodes provide this same effect. So if a marine power node is active, the infestation cannot enter a radius around that space without the help of a cyst. That way marines would be better able to hold off the infestation - as well as be able to destroy the cyst, allowing the power node to be a helpful 'push' to get rid of the growth. Along these same lines, the infestation could 'infest' an empty node on their terf so that marines would have at least a little wall in the way of plopping a power node into an alien infested room and causing massive disruption in one move - and the kharaa would have a warning before their infestation was disrupted.
The next thing I see happening is that this would remove a single marine's ability to halt the infestation's growth. Granted I really hate these people when playing as kharaa - running down a hallway and finding everything slowly dying because some jerk killed a cyst. But from a marine's standpoint, that could have been a game breaking moment - and I don't think completely removing this role of marine is a good idea. Chris suggested they can shoot bullets to clear a path, but realistically that seems a little far fetched.. or at least would require a whole lot of bullets. And while flame throwers are great, there are two problems with them -> they're expensive, and they require lots of upgrades which joe-shmoe marine doesn't have access to.
-So I'd suggest two things: 1- Using vines for the infestation growing (similar to how cysts are now, no vine, no growth), so to break it down: Infestation stays alive as long as its connected to the hive (by itself). Vines grow outward automatically, likely toward any cysts in range, and the infestation will grow out off of any vines. Cysts can be placed anywhere by the khaam or gorge, and will 'encourage growth' of both the vines and infestation.
2- Having the welder act as a minor infestation killer. So when infestation is touched by the welder's flame, the infestation would burn and then pull back from the damage caused by the fire - just like a flamethrower, but on a smaller scale. This way, a single marine could still find that perfect place to kill a vine to stop growth in an area, or to burn away the infestation with his welder and make it possible to build a power node.
Please note that these ideas don't get in the way of the idea of running around with big guns, destroying structures and burning the infestation with flamethrowers for major incursions.
I didn't read the whole topic and I don't know if anyone already suggested it, but why don't just make something like the Zerg creep in Starcraft 2?
There it's really simple, you put a "creep tumor" and the creep just spreads around it. If you put more creep tumors together, the creep will spread faster. Zerg units can move faster over it.
So, why not make something like that in NS? You make a "infestation tumor" or something like that, and the infestation spreads. If the tumor dies, the infestation around that slowly dies. I think it's simple and works. I don't think this infestation thing should be something too complicated, to me it should be something really simple so you don't have to spend too much time with it and can actually focus on the battle. The way you show it in the video, it seems a bit confusing.
<!--quoteo(post=1891655:date=Dec 25 2011, 05:52 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Dec 25 2011, 05:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1891655"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Isn't that what we have now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, and it's significantly lacking in depth.
<!--quoteo(post=1891655:date=Dec 25 2011, 06:52 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Dec 25 2011, 06:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1891655"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Isn't that what we have now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh, not quiet. Multiple cysts don't grow the infestation faster, and "what we have now" is already planned on going away, its just a stand in.
Centurion - I believe what they're going for is to make it as simple and intuitive as possible, but they also want to make it interesting and innovative. They don't just want to make a starcraft knock-off.
Thay have an intelligent fungus thing...er...long story short, what if when a human died on the dynamic infestation, theres a short incubation time (graphic of the rag doll being 'swallowed/grown over') then **BLAM**, big spore cloud (like the lerk ability?) and accelerated infestation growth in a significant area (including roof and walls etc)...?
Maybe if you decide to implement the nearby structure related bonus thingy then different body booms could be umbra (def),speed boost, cloaking powder etc...nothing to extreme or replacing of existing game design entities, just an interesting use of the infestation?
Maybe I've been watching to much fringe over the (few!) days off work I had...?
<!--quoteo(post=1891633:date=Dec 25 2011, 07:45 PM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Dec 25 2011, 07:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1891633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The next thing I see happening is that this would remove a single marine's ability to halt the infestation's growth. Granted I really hate these people when playing as kharaa - running down a hallway and finding everything slowly dying because some jerk killed a cyst. But from a marine's standpoint, that could have been a game breaking moment - and I don't think completely removing this role of marine is a good idea. Chris suggested they can shoot bullets to clear a path, but realistically that seems a little far fetched.. or at least would require a whole lot of bullets. And while flame throwers are great, there are two problems with them -> they're expensive, and they require lots of upgrades which joe-shmoe marine doesn't have access to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't really see that as a bad thing though.
Infestation and power nodes are environmental changes, just as one alien should not focus on destroying the power node in a marine base, so one marine should not focus on destroying infestation in alien controlled territory. Even moreso with marines as their whole gimmick is that they work best in groups.
A marine would still be able to do things in an infested area, he could kill structures in it, especially resource towers and the like, but he wouldn't do much against the infestation itself. I don't really see that as a problem though as infestation alone doesn't do anything other than provide aliens intel and give them some light combat bonuses, much like having the lights on in a room does the same for marines because they can see better.
With the power node idea marines wouldn't worry about infestation attacking their bases, and with arcs able to clear it as well the commander could easily send one with a few marines to sit in a key hallway for a while and cut off infestation if they really need to clear it out, but I think the idea of having infestation be fairly persistant is a good thing, really. Why do you need to focus on killing it as a first resort? Make it a bit tougher to clear out on a large scale.
If CCs can clear infestation from the area of their attached power node, the only things you actually need to be able to clear are tech points, which you could do with an arc or one guy with a flamethrower or maybe the nano shield power can also double as a way to clear infestation from a small patch of terrain, long enough to drop a CC and get it built which would clear out the room over time.
I genuinely like the idea of the map slowly becoming more and more infested over the course of the game, starting out clear but eventually being restricted to only the marine controlled areas being free of it. Focussing on fighting aliens and their structures on the infestation rather than the infestation itself is also a good thing because it keeps the combat fun. Personally I don't like that shooting cysts is the best way to kill crags and whips. It kind of makes the game not fun where you have all these cool structures, but the only thing worth killing is the cysts because then the other things just die off.
<!--quoteo(post=1891944:date=Dec 28 2011, 05:55 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 28 2011, 05:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1891944"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't really see that as a problem though as infestation alone doesn't do anything other than provide aliens intel and give them some light combat bonuses, much like having the lights on in a room does the same for marines because they can see better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But the Devs have been saying they want to replace gorge's heal spray with a healing effect of standing on the infestation, and that infestation might actually provide energy as well. The whole infestation mechanic is going to be replaced at some point - its not just going to be a graphic update.
<!--quoteo(post=1891944:date=Dec 28 2011, 05:55 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 28 2011, 05:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1891944"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With the power node idea marines wouldn't worry about infestation attacking their bases, and with arcs able to clear it as well the commander could easily send one with a few marines to sit in a key hallway for a while and cut off infestation if they really need to clear it out, but I think the idea of having infestation be fairly persistant is a good thing, really. Why do you need to focus on killing it as a first resort? Make it a bit tougher to clear out on a large scale.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't mean that power nodes would stop all infestation - just automatic growth. One of the things in charlie's example of dynamic infesation is that the stuff actually grows on its own partially, meanwhile the khaam is required to actually make new growths - sorta like cysts. I just meant that auto-growths could be kept out of the room of a power node, though using an arc to actually kill or push back infestation in an area would be awesome. From the kharaa point of view though, I'm not suggesting that Cysts (or their equivalent) wouldn't be allowed in a room with power.
<!--quoteo(post=1891633:date=Dec 25 2011, 08:45 PM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Dec 25 2011, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1891633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2- Having the welder act as a minor infestation killer. So when infestation is touched by the welder's flame, the infestation would burn and then pull back from the damage caused by the fire - just like a flamethrower, but on a smaller scale. This way, a single marine could still find that perfect place to kill a vine to stop growth in an area, or to burn away the infestation with his welder and make it possible to build a power node.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would be cool to see Marines cutting the infestation in a hallway, while they are being defended, to cut off whips or other critical Alien structures.
<!--quoteo(post=1892006:date=Dec 29 2011, 08:05 AM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Dec 29 2011, 08:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892006"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But the Devs have been saying they want to replace gorge's heal spray with a healing effect of standing on the infestation, and that infestation might actually provide energy as well. The whole infestation mechanic is going to be replaced at some point - its not just going to be a graphic update.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's going to replace gorge healing?
That seems a bit excessive, it'd make aliens nearly invincible on their home turf.
I think the idea was for it to replace hive healing, in the sense that rather than running back to the hive, you run back to the infestation and regenerate steadily. Gorge healing is much more direct and can actually keep things alive under fire.
<!--quoteo(post=1892006:date=Dec 29 2011, 08:05 AM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Dec 29 2011, 08:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892006"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't mean that power nodes would stop all infestation - just automatic growth. One of the things in charlie's example of dynamic infesation is that the stuff actually grows on its own partially, meanwhile the khaam is required to actually make new growths - sorta like cysts. I just meant that auto-growths could be kept out of the room of a power node, though using an arc to actually kill or push back infestation in an area would be awesome. From the kharaa point of view though, I'm not suggesting that Cysts (or their equivalent) wouldn't be allowed in a room with power.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could make power nodes work like that if you want but I think that a CC should actively destroy any infestation in range of its connected power node. Marines should not be worrying about infestation attacking their primary bases, the presence of a marine base should be a solid wall in the path of the infestation until the base is destroyed.
Comments
It seems like that sort of tree-like structure would either get very complicated very quickly, or be somewhat pointless. I mean taking summit as an example, I think I'd probably just run one big vine through the level, it's not like there'd be much reason to branch after all, the level is basically a circle with a line through it. By the time you want to branch you'd have another hive to run it off.
Unless of course you need to branch to fill out rooms in which case it seems like managing infestation in rooms would quickly become kinda annoying, as you'd have loads of little twigs coming off the main body of the root.
Plus the idea of branching making the vine stronger seems odd, it sounds like the best way to use the system would be to just run one thin line all through the level then spam a bunch of branches at the end to make the line really tough, but you'd kinda expect the opposite to be true because you'd think all the offshoots would make it weaker.
It still seems complicated.
The reason i don't really like any of the actual network style suggestions is that none of them really work well with rooms. Having actual tracked connections between nodes like that produces kinda messy structures when you try to expand out to fill a room and then also treat the room as one big blob for the purposes of running new connections off the room. You can see it currently with cysts, the connection system doesn't handle rooms very well, and rooms are in some ways more of a liability because of the poor connection handlng inherent to the hierarchical node system. You can quite easily mess with the connectivity by killing a few cysts in a room, when really speaking rooms should be the strongest parts of the infestation, because there's masses of it in there and probably some structures as well.
The only way I think to fix that is to remove the hierarchy part, and just change it to a simple binary format. Is it connected to the hive? Yes/no, and also by massively increasing the network density so that shooting one cyst won't cut the chain. The amount of infestation present dictates strength, not how many cysts or other support structures there are. This would mean network strength is strongest wherever there is plenty of room to grow, and plenty of time to build up.
I imagine each new hive would spawn a new root vine. Connecting two different system would reinforce both of them.
<!--quoteo(post=1890918:date=Dec 19 2011, 08:54 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 19 2011, 08:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890918"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems like that sort of tree-like structure would either get very complicated very quickly, or be somewhat pointless. I mean taking summit as an example, I think I'd probably just run one big vine through the level, it's not like there'd be much reason to branch after all, the level is basically a circle with a line through it. By the time you want to branch you'd have another hive to run it off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Risk - gain gamble. It would be faster to just have one single vine grow through the entire level. On the other hand, if you wait to long to branch the entire vein could quickly die to a single marine with a hatchet. I imagine cutting a vine would kill it back to the latest fork. Also having multiple vines running alongside wouldn't be slower, but would have had a greater invested cost.
<!--quoteo(post=1890918:date=Dec 19 2011, 08:54 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 19 2011, 08:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890918"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unless of course you need to branch to fill out rooms in which case it seems like managing infestation in rooms would quickly become kinda annoying, as you'd have loads of little twigs coming off the main body of the root.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shooting out a bunch is quicker but cost more. You can also have fewer and snake them through the room. I imagine about 3-4 vines would be good to fill out a fairly large room if you're not in a great hurry.
<!--quoteo(post=1890918:date=Dec 19 2011, 08:54 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 19 2011, 08:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890918"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Plus the idea of branching making the vine stronger seems odd, it sounds like the best way to use the system would be to just run one thin line all through the level then spam a bunch of branches at the end to make the line really tough, but you'd kinda expect the opposite to be true because you'd think all the offshoots would make it weaker.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Think of it like this; the hive isn't stupid. It pumps in more power in a more complex tree to fuel the needs of it. It also works pretty well for game-play purposes :)
I had always assumed when the cyst was introduced, that it was a somewhat temporary solution until the infestation mechanics could be worked out fully. I personally like a node-less infestation concept, much like what was shown in the really early (first) infestation video. Maybe it's just aesthetics, but having nodes all over the place seems clumsy and a bit bothersome. It would be ideal for the infestation to be like a fungus looking stuff just caked all over every surface. Like in Aliens, right? Some sort of secreted resin ;D.
This networking idea seems to be doing great for the placement and pathing of infestation; I guess I just don't like the idea of the nodes being seen. I guess I don't have any good solutions to throw out there -- I just wanted to express my feeling on the cyst structures and the deviation the infestation model is taking from a free-growing type concept.
Quick idea: since areas are supposed to be cleary defined in terms of territory (like what is done with lighting) why can't the same be done for infestation? Resource points, power sockets, or command station points could be used as the source that extends to a given area. *shrug* I'm sure a lot of thought had gone into the implementation; I'm just wishing for that image I originally had on the infestation model.
1. I don't think they're a very good gameplay mechanic, having such a blocky network makes the network kind of annoying to use.
2. It kind of ruins the feel of infestation, it neither looks cool nor feels organic to just have it be essentially be pylons from starcraft.
It's a lot better on the 'feel' side, but I remain skeptical as to whether it would work on the gameplay side. I still think it'd be a lot harder to use than having infestation just be one contiguous blob with no connective structure beyond itself. I also think it'd be harder to solve the useability problems with it than it would be to solve the ones with infestation being too hard to remove under the other system.
That's is one of the reasons that I would go with vines, the other being that I could have incredible fun with creating the ultimate network. Always liked tower defense games where you build the maze yourself, and this is a similar approach :)
I mean without cysts it should take say ten minutes or so to fill a room with infestation, that's pretty slow growth.
Assume two marines with rifles come into a corridor, they can fire 50 bullets in 2.5 seconds or so (I think that's the rifle fire rate) and they carry 200-250 bullets each (not sure if the bars on the ammo counter include the current clip).
That's enough bullets to do a fair amount of damage to infestation, they could quite easily use the rifles like knives to just cut a big line across the corridor, especially if the commander gives them ammo kits, and that's just with basic rifles.
Once you include things like damage upgrades you could make the bullets more effective, for things like shotguns you could include some special code to make it blast a big chunk out of the infestation (to balance out its limited number of bullets) and anything with an area effect would be really good at killing infestation if you keep it stocked with ammo. Marine bullets are apparently explosive if the decals are to be believed so it seems reasonable they'd affect a slightly larger area than the precise spot the bullet hits, and you could also argue it's collateral damage to the infestation from the impact.
Ultimately, marines would be using their primary weapons to clear infestation, which means that really speaking it should just be a matter of balancing bullets so that they clear a certain amount of infestation, the same thing that stops marines from destroying entire alien bases with one gun would stop them destroying entire rooms of infestation with one gun, it is not ammo effiicient to do so.
Marines are very good at damage dealing in short bursts, their problem is longevity due to their limited ammo, so it should be quite easy to make killing infestation quite easy in a small area, but hard over a large area, as it plays to natural marine strengths to favour focussed attacks.
If you want more complexity in the infestation you could make alien structures have a 'mutate infestation' mode where they stop doing their primary function and sort of burrow into the infestation a bit, and change its properties. So you could make shifts cause the infestation to slow marines down a bit, shades could make it produce an obscuring mist that aliens would be able to see through easily but marines would see as much thicker. Crags could make it tougher to damage or make any structures on it grow a sort of carapace over them. Whips could make it corrode marine armor slowly if they stand on it. You could represent all of this by blending into a new infestation texture around the structure, each a different colour and texture to symbolise the effects.
That's pretty tower defence, but you don't need to worry about it everywhere, it's complexity where you want to have complexity but the basic infestation is incredibly simple, so if you're just running a supply chain it's easy to do and you can mostly forget about it once you drop the cysts.
Although burrowing structures to make a secondary effect for the infestation sounds fun.. The Kharaa areas would be more bland then tho, unless you make the infestation really thick and wavy.
You could also add more mutation effects, faster alien movement on infestation to set up highways for your units for example, improved energy regenration for structures to let you use the active abilities of other structures more often. There's lots of options.
I think what with cysts providing spread and regeneration, infestation types, structures in general and active abilities, whips being made more versatile, potentially as a sort of alien equivalent of the arc, and gorge hydra/cyst spitting there's plenty for the commander to do. He can do all the infestation and building and structure tweaking and suchlike, and any downtime he can spend filling out the hive room with hydras and well placed cysts, generally optimising his buildings, although I imagine there'd be plenty to do on the commander construction front.
If not you could always introduce some more active abilities, or triggered abilities on infestation, it'd be quite cool if making a hive a crag hive or a whip hive or whatever gave the hive the ability to fire off that structure's active ability anywhere on the infestation.
I definitely think any complexity/busy work you add should be optional, so you don't have to do it if you don't want to, but you can if you have the time. The trouble with making something as fundamental as infestation inherently complicated is that it might work fine on smaller maps, but on bigger maps with lots of infestation it could rapidly become a hindrance.
Aesthetically though yes infestation does need to be more interesting than a uniform green carpet. Aesthetic vines would be quite cool, as would all sorts of random visual things like little wavy lights on stalks growing out of the walls, the occasional patch of cillia waving around, glowing yellow spots that blink every now and then, there's loads of cool alien looking stuff you could include on the aesthetic side of infestation, as well as sound and atmospheric effects.
With this model, I think cysts should be droppable anywhere, and be able to keep themselves alive, but the infestation doesn't grow from them, it grows from the hive. Cysts just make it grow FASTER. So you can imagine the commander dropping a chain of cysts across the map, and maybe little spores or something come out of the hive and fly to the spots and seed a little cyst there. The cysts just sit there doing nothing, but then if you wait you see the infestation growing quickly across the map, from the hive room. I think it'd be pretty awesome as a marine, to walk into an area that maybe a gorge has hidden a bunch of cysts in, and to see this green stuff growing out of the doorway on the other side of the room and slowly spreading across the room as you walk across it. That's INFINITELY cooler than the current approach.
In order for infestation to stay alive, it needs to connect to the hive, but it does so simply by being connected, there's no vines or cyst network, if the infestation connects to the hive along its surface, it's sustained and grows freely. To cut off infestation marines have to isolate it completely from the hive, which means finding a narrow hallway and burning it clear and keeping it clear until the infestation dies off.
Things like structures are the specialised growth, killing them doesn't kill infestation, it just stops the structure from doing what it does.
If a patch of infestation is cut off from the hive, the structures on it should slow down, heal slower, active abilities don't work, the infestation recedes back to the cysts.
To kill infestation you would just damage it, with anything. Spray it with bullets, fire, grenades, whatever. Anything works, it just takes time and flamers would obviously be the best choice because they spread damage around a lot. Killing cysts would make it easier, but you still have to clear it yourself.
You could also add some new marine structures or structure functionality. A CC for example might be able to connect to the power node in a room and use it to clear infestation from the room it's in. You could also make a secondary mode for arcs which destroys infestation around them, like a constant sonic pulse or something.
I don't think that the cyst mechanic is the best or the only way to allow marines to clear infestation without flamethrowers. This system means you can site your bases to cut off infestation progress through the map, position arcs in the second mode to block it, and use your marines to attack weak points to cut off chains if they can keep alive long enough to do so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this suggestion is just.. so totally awesome. Sorry for sounding like a surf boarder, but really, this would be amazing to see and to use. However, a couple suggestions of tweaks or additions, generally they are pro-marine ideas because this seems to powerful for the kharaa:
One thing in particular which i like is the added use for the ARCs. It would actually make a single ARC incredibly powerful in the right situation. However, in the early game, the khaam could easily overtake the marines just by putting everything into sending out the infestation. Once the infestation is there, the marines with their level one abilities would be simply overwhelmed. It would also require ARCs for every game, and in long matches could drastically reduce the effectiveness of jet-packers.
-Chris suggested to give the CC the ability to clear infestation, but I'd suggest having power nodes provide this same effect. So if a marine power node is active, the infestation cannot enter a radius around that space without the help of a cyst. That way marines would be better able to hold off the infestation - as well as be able to destroy the cyst, allowing the power node to be a helpful 'push' to get rid of the growth. Along these same lines, the infestation could 'infest' an empty node on their terf so that marines would have at least a little wall in the way of plopping a power node into an alien infested room and causing massive disruption in one move - and the kharaa would have a warning before their infestation was disrupted.
The next thing I see happening is that this would remove a single marine's ability to halt the infestation's growth. Granted I really hate these people when playing as kharaa - running down a hallway and finding everything slowly dying because some jerk killed a cyst. But from a marine's standpoint, that could have been a game breaking moment - and I don't think completely removing this role of marine is a good idea. Chris suggested they can shoot bullets to clear a path, but realistically that seems a little far fetched.. or at least would require a whole lot of bullets. And while flame throwers are great, there are two problems with them -> they're expensive, and they require lots of upgrades which joe-shmoe marine doesn't have access to.
-So I'd suggest two things:
1- Using vines for the infestation growing (similar to how cysts are now, no vine, no growth), so to break it down:
Infestation stays alive as long as its connected to the hive (by itself).
Vines grow outward automatically, likely toward any cysts in range, and the infestation will grow out off of any vines.
Cysts can be placed anywhere by the khaam or gorge, and will 'encourage growth' of both the vines and infestation.
2- Having the welder act as a minor infestation killer. So when infestation is touched by the welder's flame, the infestation would burn and then pull back from the damage caused by the fire - just like a flamethrower, but on a smaller scale.
This way, a single marine could still find that perfect place to kill a vine to stop growth in an area, or to burn away the infestation with his welder and make it possible to build a power node.
Please note that these ideas don't get in the way of the idea of running around with big guns, destroying structures and burning the infestation with flamethrowers for major incursions.
There it's really simple, you put a "creep tumor" and the creep just spreads around it. If you put more creep tumors together, the creep will spread faster. Zerg units can move faster over it.
So, why not make something like that in NS? You make a "infestation tumor" or something like that, and the infestation spreads. If the tumor dies, the infestation around that slowly dies. I think it's simple and works. I don't think this infestation thing should be something too complicated, to me it should be something really simple so you don't have to spend too much time with it and can actually focus on the battle.
The way you show it in the video, it seems a bit confusing.
Yes, and it's significantly lacking in depth.
Eh, not quiet. Multiple cysts don't grow the infestation faster, and "what we have now" is already planned on going away, its just a stand in.
Centurion - I believe what they're going for is to make it as simple and intuitive as possible, but they also want to make it interesting and innovative. They don't just want to make a starcraft knock-off.
Thay have an intelligent fungus thing...er...long story short, what if when a human died on the dynamic infestation, theres a short incubation time (graphic of the rag doll being 'swallowed/grown over') then **BLAM**, big spore cloud (like the lerk ability?) and accelerated infestation growth in a significant area (including roof and walls etc)...?
Maybe if you decide to implement the nearby structure related bonus thingy then different body booms could be umbra (def),speed boost, cloaking powder etc...nothing to extreme or replacing of existing game design entities, just an interesting use of the infestation?
Maybe I've been watching to much fringe over the (few!) days off work I had...?
I don't really see that as a bad thing though.
Infestation and power nodes are environmental changes, just as one alien should not focus on destroying the power node in a marine base, so one marine should not focus on destroying infestation in alien controlled territory. Even moreso with marines as their whole gimmick is that they work best in groups.
A marine would still be able to do things in an infested area, he could kill structures in it, especially resource towers and the like, but he wouldn't do much against the infestation itself. I don't really see that as a problem though as infestation alone doesn't do anything other than provide aliens intel and give them some light combat bonuses, much like having the lights on in a room does the same for marines because they can see better.
With the power node idea marines wouldn't worry about infestation attacking their bases, and with arcs able to clear it as well the commander could easily send one with a few marines to sit in a key hallway for a while and cut off infestation if they really need to clear it out, but I think the idea of having infestation be fairly persistant is a good thing, really. Why do you need to focus on killing it as a first resort? Make it a bit tougher to clear out on a large scale.
If CCs can clear infestation from the area of their attached power node, the only things you actually need to be able to clear are tech points, which you could do with an arc or one guy with a flamethrower or maybe the nano shield power can also double as a way to clear infestation from a small patch of terrain, long enough to drop a CC and get it built which would clear out the room over time.
I genuinely like the idea of the map slowly becoming more and more infested over the course of the game, starting out clear but eventually being restricted to only the marine controlled areas being free of it. Focussing on fighting aliens and their structures on the infestation rather than the infestation itself is also a good thing because it keeps the combat fun. Personally I don't like that shooting cysts is the best way to kill crags and whips. It kind of makes the game not fun where you have all these cool structures, but the only thing worth killing is the cysts because then the other things just die off.
But the Devs have been saying they want to replace gorge's heal spray with a healing effect of standing on the infestation, and that infestation might actually provide energy as well. The whole infestation mechanic is going to be replaced at some point - its not just going to be a graphic update.
<!--quoteo(post=1891944:date=Dec 28 2011, 05:55 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 28 2011, 05:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1891944"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With the power node idea marines wouldn't worry about infestation attacking their bases, and with arcs able to clear it as well the commander could easily send one with a few marines to sit in a key hallway for a while and cut off infestation if they really need to clear it out, but I think the idea of having infestation be fairly persistant is a good thing, really. Why do you need to focus on killing it as a first resort? Make it a bit tougher to clear out on a large scale.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't mean that power nodes would stop all infestation - just automatic growth. One of the things in charlie's example of dynamic infesation is that the stuff actually grows on its own partially, meanwhile the khaam is required to actually make new growths - sorta like cysts. I just meant that auto-growths could be kept out of the room of a power node, though using an arc to actually kill or push back infestation in an area would be awesome. From the kharaa point of view though, I'm not suggesting that Cysts (or their equivalent) wouldn't be allowed in a room with power.
This way, a single marine could still find that perfect place to kill a vine to stop growth in an area, or to burn away the infestation with his welder and make it possible to build a power node.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would be cool to see Marines cutting the infestation in a hallway, while they are being defended, to cut off whips or other critical Alien structures.
That's going to replace gorge healing?
That seems a bit excessive, it'd make aliens nearly invincible on their home turf.
I think the idea was for it to replace hive healing, in the sense that rather than running back to the hive, you run back to the infestation and regenerate steadily. Gorge healing is much more direct and can actually keep things alive under fire.
<!--quoteo(post=1892006:date=Dec 29 2011, 08:05 AM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Dec 29 2011, 08:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892006"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't mean that power nodes would stop all infestation - just automatic growth. One of the things in charlie's example of dynamic infesation is that the stuff actually grows on its own partially, meanwhile the khaam is required to actually make new growths - sorta like cysts. I just meant that auto-growths could be kept out of the room of a power node, though using an arc to actually kill or push back infestation in an area would be awesome. From the kharaa point of view though, I'm not suggesting that Cysts (or their equivalent) wouldn't be allowed in a room with power.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could make power nodes work like that if you want but I think that a CC should actively destroy any infestation in range of its connected power node. Marines should not be worrying about infestation attacking their primary bases, the presence of a marine base should be a solid wall in the path of the infestation until the base is destroyed.