Deactivate / lock phase gate
scotty
Join Date: 2011-07-01 Member: 107400Members
Join Date: 2011-07-01 Member: 107400Members
Comments
I would think that it would just frustrate the player and cause squabbling/rage quitting.
I support this.
I would think that it would just frustrate the player and cause squabbling/rage quitting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would find it more frustrating to have to teleport to 6 other phase gates before i got where i wanted. This isn't about herding sheep, it's about saving time / res.
I don't know whether it's planned or not, but it should be.
Ah, well in that case I would suggest having the phase gate pop up a number select or map select (literal gui) for players to decide where to go. There's another topic going on around here that is talking about the same issue.
edit, here: <a href="http://www.naturalselection.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=115750&st=0&gopid=1891815&#entry1891815" target="_blank">http://www.naturalselection.com/forums/ind...p;#entry1891815</a>
And here is a link to the broken download page: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=31674" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....showtopic=31674</a> - not really that helpful I know, just showing you it was around in NS1 and was extremely helpful.
Actually, in doing a search for Phase Select, I found a post from Max saying they are definitely adding it: <a href="http://www.naturalselection.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=99699&st=0&p=1593789&#entry1593789" target="_blank">http://www.naturalselection.com/forums/ind...p;#entry1593789</a>
So I guess we just need to be patient.
I, personally, think that that sort of thing should be up to the commander. There could be a function whereby the commander selects any phase gate, clicks the 're-route' button, a map is brought up that highlights every phase-gate on the map along with their connections, and a commander could drag-and-drop to define the connections himself. There should be two "arrows" in each case, probably colour-coded. One for the "forward" arrow, and one for the "reverse" arrow. Each phasegate can have one "forward" arrow and one "reverse" arrow, corresponding to the side with which a player enters.
e.g. 5-min MS-Paint Mockup:
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/xT5H6.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Not exactly the most efficient set-up, but just an example.
Not exactly the most efficient set-up, but just an example.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even more efficiently set-up, this looks like a nightmare of micro-management to me. Not because setting it up once would be so bad, but because the kharaa are going to do what they do -> destroy your crap. Not to mention you don't build all the phase gates at the same time. The comm is going to be struggling with buildings, upgrades, MACs, ARCs, annoying marines wanting health packs and ammo packs and everything else under the sun, they aren't going to have time to set up and re-set-up and re-set-up the phase gate pathways.
By allowing marines to "use" the phase gates and bringing up an option of 1-9 of the various gates to go to, it makes the process quick, intuitive, and hassle free for the commander. Trust me - it worked for NS1, and they've already said they're going to do it in NS2.
As for the 1-9 selection, this would probably work though slow the process of moving to a location a slight bit. A likely preferable trade-off though since right now the phasegate is frustratingly out of the player's control.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
If you disable a phase gate people would be stuck in that area meaning only one phase gate would head to the area where you need them all to be. So a temporary redirect to 1 phase gate would be my choice
So the commander just sets the priority on a phasegate and every other phasegate will redirect you to this phasegate(so its basically only one main route but other phasegate still work) - this easy to do is not too complicated with a sane amout of micromanagment, but still needs communication and teamwork.
I dont think we need anything more complicated or advanced.
edit: should have read all the comments, basically im saying what zerzex says - only that i dont think it should have a timelimit(but ofc you can always disable the priority, without the need of setting a new one)...
Designating a priority phase gate would be simple and effective. The system would work like it does now but the phase gate closest to the command station where the commander currently is (main base, that is) would be the first phase gate in the loop and the commander could designate a priority phase gate which would be the next one. Phase gates after that would be in the order they were built, just like currently. So a phase gate loop could look something like this:
Base -> priority pg -> pg 1 -> pg 2 -> base
There are some potential problems, for example the commander could be in a command station away from the infantry portals which would make the priority pg not the first one spawning marines would get to. This could be fixed by letting comm designate base pg as well or making the pg closest to an infantry portal the base pg (but what to do if there are ips in multiple bases?). But the main advantages to this model are that it's simple for the commander (just make the pg closest to the action the priority pg) and easy for the players as well, as they can still get to any pg but after spawning, would get fast where they are needed. The order of the phase gates wouldn't change dramatically through the game which reduces confusion.
You press a phase gate, press turn off in the selection menu/hotkey. Press again to turn on.
I wouldn't like any menu's or other systems for people on the ground, it should be down to the commander to make the right decision.
Such systems make it both annoying and slower to use the phase gates.
You press a phase gate, press turn off in the selection menu/hotkey. Press again to turn on.
I wouldn't like any menu's or other systems for people on the ground, it should be down to the commander to make the right decision.
Such systems make it both annoying and slower to use the phase gates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to mention the commander, if there is an attack on say Flight Control of Summit - the comm can simply say or type "get to flight" and know that without anything else on their part, the marines should be able to get to the proper location in the minimum amount of time. As comm, do you really want to see an attack in flight control, say 'EVERYONE PHASE NAOW' and then scramble across the map trying to find the extremely thin profile of the phase gate to be able to click it once, and click again for priority?
This, guys and dolls, is called "Micromanagement", check it out: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromanagement" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromanagement</a> . Its a very bad thing, especially in a combat situation. You need to know that the people under you are smart enough to do what you ask without help on your part. While I've already once voiced the opinion that NS2 might be a little complex for the average player (as in, people who haven't bought the game yet), I think that using a menu which corresponds names of rooms to numbers isn't too complex, even for the most stunted of sprouts.
It would also be an inconsistency on the part of the phase gate - players would feel like they couldn't trust it since it would send them to various gates which they don't want to go (like now). Is it going to send me where I should be, or am I traveling to the open maw of a Fade who is camping in the next room over?
Going back to what worked - Phase Select - mod for NS1, it was awesome and worked perfectly. Only problem was that it limited to 9, but how often are there more than 9 pgs; and anyone can easily think of ways around that problem in half a second were it seriously an issue. Hell, you should be able to find a server with it on there still if you want to try it out.
Either your living in another time dimension, mistaking miliseconds for seconds, or your somehow playing games where commanders build 30-60 phasegates. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but how often are there more than 9 pgs<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> so im guessing its one of the former two.
<!--quoteo(post=1892005:date=Dec 29 2011, 06:44 PM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Dec 29 2011, 06:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892005"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->numbers that never change, never get confusing, and never rely on someone making sure that they set the correct place - or that they forgot about it, or had to get out of the chair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, last i checked numbers do not tend to change. What locations are assigned to what numbers however usually will throughout a game. It can get also become error prone and frustrating when you spam number 3 to go to location number 3 and end up pulling out your axe when there.
<!--quoteo(post=1892005:date=Dec 29 2011, 06:44 PM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Dec 29 2011, 06:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892005"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not to mention the commander, if there is an attack on say Flight Control of Summit - the comm can simply say or type "get to flight" and know that without anything else on their part, the marines should be able to get to the proper location in the minimum amount of time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes the comm can communicate go to flight control and rely on marines (new players included) to find their own way. But why when its quicker and more idiot proof to simply 'link' two phasegates together and scream phase. Having a menu open for marines and having them select a location is slower and you'd be hard pressed to argue otherwise.
<!--quoteo(post=1892005:date=Dec 29 2011, 06:44 PM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Dec 29 2011, 06:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892005"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As comm, do you really want to see an attack in flight control, say 'EVERYONE PHASE NAOW' and then scramble across the map trying to find the extremely thin profile of the phase gate to be able to click it once, and click again for priority?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hotkeys/minimap. And if you cant click on a big shiny blue object, then yea im not sure what to say.
<!--quoteo(post=1892005:date=Dec 29 2011, 06:44 PM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Dec 29 2011, 06:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892005"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This, guys and dolls, is called "Micromanagement", check it out: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromanagement" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromanagement</a> . Its a very bad thing, especially in a combat situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Micromanagement is a staple of RTS. Yea we know what micromanagement is, thanks for reminding us. It is a good thing in the right ammounts and helps to differentiate between good and bad skill levels. I never find myself saying "gee, i wish SC2 had less micromanagement potential in those tense combat situations! What bad game design not letting me read a book and feed the cat at the same time!"
<!--quoteo(post=1892005:date=Dec 29 2011, 06:44 PM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Dec 29 2011, 06:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892005"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While I've already once voiced the opinion that NS2 might be a little complex for the average player (as in, people who haven't bought the game yet), I think that using a menu which corresponds names of rooms to numbers isn't too complex, even for the most stunted of sprouts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The real question is, is it necessary? The minimalistic answer is no. Have you perchance seen the armoury menu? No thankyou.
<!--quoteo(post=1892005:date=Dec 29 2011, 06:44 PM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Dec 29 2011, 06:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892005"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would also be an inconsistency on the part of the phase gate - players would feel like they couldn't trust it since it would send them to various gates which they don't want to go (like now). Is it going to send me where I should be, or am I traveling to the open maw of a Fade who is camping in the next room over?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is pretty strawman. Where players want to phase to and where commanders want players to phase should theoretically always be the same place if they want to win. Differences arise when the player and the commander are not on the same page. Not to mention sometimes where you should be phasing to is into the 'open maw' of a fade (i think you meant skulk?)
This is ideas and suggestions, not "omfg you guys dont know what your talking about coz my universe is the only universe" but im not a mod or anything so take it as a suggestion.
<!--quoteo(post=1892016:date=Dec 29 2011, 09:09 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Dec 29 2011, 09:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892016"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Either your living in another time dimension, mistaking miliseconds for seconds, or your somehow playing games where commanders build 30-60 phasegates. so im guessing its one of the former two.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm talking about having around 5 phase gates - which is what seems to be average on a turret spamming comm (a successful one anyway). At current, trying to step through the phase causes extreme lag, but even if it didn't - there is still the disorientation of being in a new room. "Am I where I should be?" And if you're being attack currently, but also in the wrong room, you'll protect yourself before you can jump back into the phase to go where you intended. This from the standpoint of their being more than one room being attacked at once.
<!--quoteo(post=1892016:date=Dec 29 2011, 09:09 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Dec 29 2011, 09:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892016"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hotkeys/minimap. And if you cant click on a big shiny blue object, then yea im not sure what to say.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even if you only had 3 phase gates, thats 3 hot keys that you're taking away from more important uses. Also if you try out the comm right now, its not a shiny blue object - there is in fact no blue at all. Its a rectangular dark grey box, because you're looking down on it orthographically and the plane they're using for the phase effect is completely vertical.
<!--quoteo(post=1892016:date=Dec 29 2011, 09:09 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Dec 29 2011, 09:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892016"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Micromanagement is a staple of RTS. Yea we know what micromanagement is, thanks for reminding us. It is a good thing in the right ammounts and helps to differentiate between good and bad skill levels. I never find myself saying "gee, i wish SC2 had less micromanagement potential in those tense combat situations! What bad game design not letting me read a book and feed the cat at the same time!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I couldn't disagree more, StarCraft is so good because they make it so you don't have to micromanage. Its the same for other good rts's - the goal is to make the micromanaging happen on the side of the computer, letting the player enjoy the game, not the tediousness. However, I will concede that it is a player's choice as to what kind of game they enjoy. I'm just talking about the big picture and 'general' people.
<!--quoteo(post=1892016:date=Dec 29 2011, 09:09 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Dec 29 2011, 09:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892016"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is pretty strawman. Where players want to phase to and where commanders want players to phase should theoretically always be the same place if they want to win. Differences arise when the player and the commander are not on the same page. Not to mention sometimes where you should be phasing to is into the 'open maw' of a fade (i think you meant skulk?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah, weak reference, I meant fade but I know they use their arms to attack. Think about it, "open maw" or "open arms"? Which sounds scarier? lol.
But for serious, a good comm doesn't always want everyone going to the same place, even in an emergency. The problem is that there is always an emergency, and the comm needs to be ready for the next one as well as the current. So as in the previous example, there may be an attack in flight control, but the comm has a suspicion that sub access is the true goal of the attack and that flight is just a diversion. He should be able to get soldiers to where he wants them without requiring them to hopscotch around the map.
<!--quoteo(post=1892016:date=Dec 29 2011, 09:09 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Dec 29 2011, 09:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892016"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is ideas and suggestions, not "omfg you guys dont know what your talking about coz my universe is the only universe" but im not a mod or anything so take it as a suggestion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Elodea, again sorry if I came across as a jerk, I wrote that at 3am. As I said, I can't even see the other point of view and I'm trying to. But, you brought up some good points of debate - which was my only intent: to debate the topic.
Not to mention the commander, if there is an attack on say Flight Control of Summit - the comm can simply say or type "get to flight" and know that without anything else on their part, the marines should be able to get to the proper location in the minimum amount of time. As comm, do you really want to see an attack in flight control, say 'EVERYONE PHASE NAOW' and then scramble across the map trying to find the extremely thin profile of the phase gate to be able to click it once, and click again for priority?
This, guys and dolls, is called "Micromanagement", check it out: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromanagement" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromanagement</a> . Its a very bad thing, especially in a combat situation. You need to know that the people under you are smart enough to do what you ask without help on your part. While I've already once voiced the opinion that NS2 might be a little complex for the average player (as in, people who haven't bought the game yet), I think that using a menu which corresponds names of rooms to numbers isn't too complex, even for the most stunted of sprouts.
It would also be an inconsistency on the part of the phase gate - players would feel like they couldn't trust it since it would send them to various gates which they don't want to go (like now). Is it going to send me where I should be, or am I traveling to the open maw of a Fade who is camping in the next room over?
Going back to what worked - Phase Select - mod for NS1, it was awesome and worked perfectly. Only problem was that it limited to 9, but how often are there more than 9 pgs; and anyone can easily think of ways around that problem in half a second were it seriously an issue. Hell, you should be able to find a server with it on there still if you want to try it out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problems you list are already solved by my solution, no I wouldn't like a list to pop up every time I go through a phase gate.
Instead of the commander telling them where to go, he can just turn off the other phase gates and yell "PHASE!"
You don't set priorities with the system I posted, you turn off undesired teleporting locations.
Micromanagement is not a bad thing to have in a game.
The list system is not complex, it's just annoying.
As I stated before it's up to your commander to make the right decisions.
Consistency is provided by good commanders. Your trust lies with him.
Say if you have 4 or more phase gates. You'd be fine with small numbers of them, but the system kinda breaks at higher numbers.
Instead of the commander telling them where to go, he can just turn off the other phase gates and yell "PHASE!"
You don't set priorities with the system I posted, you turn off undesired teleporting locations.
Micromanagement is not a bad thing to have in a game.
The list system is not complex, it's just annoying.
As I stated before it's up to your commander to make the right decisions.
Consistency is provided by good commanders. Your trust lies with him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My biggest problem with this is that you're assuming that the comm knows what he is doing. You're also assuming that the fps marines have no idea whats going on.
While it may be true that a comm knows best on a private/team/clan server, that isn't often the case with a public server - especially after this game is released commercially. Then you're not going to be dealing with hardcore fans, or even people hearing about the game from a friend, you're going to have to deal with people "thought the box was pretty at wal-mart so they picked it up," or "my grandmother bought me this because its the newest game out there and has good reviews" people.
In my opinion you have to assume a low intelligence/interest/educated level on all fronts, and make the game equal for all players. Allowing the comm to block off access to a phase gate just because he wants someone to go to a certain area is beyond what kind of control a commander should have in my opinion. If it were real life - sure, he may need that ability; in this game you're cutting down all the fps marine players by saying "you're too stupid to make the right decision, so i'm making it for you." Not you personally, I mean the commander who would be using this ability. And in doing so, it could easily harm the overall goals of the team.
<!--quoteo(post=1892034:date=Dec 29 2011, 02:55 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 29 2011, 02:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892034"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the best option would be when you have lots of phase gates, stepping into one would teleport you out, then bring up a map so you can choose where to teleport in.
Say if you have 4 or more phase gates. You'd be fine with small numbers of them, but the system kinda breaks at higher numbers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This doesn't sound too bad, though it would eat a little more time than just pressing a number. The beauty of pressing a key vs selecting a location on a map is that if you know you want to go to the 2nd constructed phase gate, you always know to press 2. So it can be extremely fast: "E", "2", and there's no hassle. How about a map and a number option? That way for people that aren't sure they can click, whereas people who are more sure of themselves can just press a key. I don't really see how it would break at a higher number though.. are you thinking there would be too many things on the map?
Yea i must have misread your sarcastic questions and let my inner rage take hold of me.
The rule still stands - consties are nice people
<!--quoteo(post=1891980:date=Dec 28 2011, 02:30 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Dec 28 2011, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1891980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just make as simple as the commander turns off undesired teleporting from specific phase gates.
You press a phase gate, press turn off in the selection menu/hotkey. Press again to turn on.
I wouldn't like any menu's or other systems for people on the ground, it should be down to the commander to make the right decision.
Such systems make it both annoying and slower to use the phase gates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
It provides enough flexibility for the commander to make the desired changes he wants to the battlefield... I would only changing the wording that the commander turns off undesired teleporting TO specific phase gate (this allows for a team to escape an area). Unless, it would be deemed the "con" of turning off a phase gate for balance purposes.
For the "shimmer", not only should it reflect what is on the other side, but some form of an information display (text) that indicates to which room you will be entering next. As gates are turned on and off, the order is bound to change. Even for experienced players that will become frustrating. Now, whether the cue is a popup menu or a LED display like on a city bus that indicates your next destination, the marine needs more information before jumping in.
Simple Solution:
As mentioned, but with a slight GUI change. Upon selecting a phase gate, a box appears on the right (picture something graphically nice) above the build box. There is an image to represent each phase gate (Probably with a maximum to minimize the amount of space this box can take up. This would be enforced by a maximum number of buildable PGs) with the location of the phase gate in text to the right. The selected PG and text becomes highlighted (in the event more than one PG is in the same area). The PG icon will be green to indicate on and red if it is turned off. By simply clicking on the PG icon, the PG will change state from On to Off and vice versa.
Advanced Solution:
By pushing a button within that PG box, an advanced pane will appear which would allow advanced modifying of the PG routes. With a properly designed system, the commander can dictate when a marine enters gate 'X' they will appear in gate 'Y'. He can setup a system where a base can contain two PGs, each taking marines to a different side of the map.
So hasn't all of this been already suggested? For the most part, yes. I just like to voice that I like a simple intuitive solution for new players, but advanced options available for experienced players.
The problem with pressing numbers is you need to know which gates correspond to which numbers, which would change on every game and every map, and the only way to figure it out is to try them all.
Hence the map selection thing, you just pick where you want to go, you should have an idea of which area of the map you want to go to, so you can just move your mouse to that area and it would snap to the nearest gate, then you click.
You can put a hotkey system on top of that but you need the visual indication of where you're going. I don't really think a few seconds to click on the map is going to be a major problem if you teleport out immediately though.