<!--quoteo(post=1892352:date=Jan 2 2012, 06:20 PM:name=sheena_yanai)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sheena_yanai @ Jan 2 2012, 06:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892352"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the current hive sight is meant to simulate the alien sense of "sensing" life forms, you do not sense their shapes, or the direction they look at, or their class<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> actually, we're talking about parasite specifically. if it isn't dealing damage over time (it shouldn't be) it should be serving some other purpose - in this case, it is relaying information about its host. it isn't such a stretch of logic that it could relay more detailed information.
konata, I don't think anyone's trying to 'fix' what isn't 'broken'. In fact, I hope no one ever uses that phrase as an argument again. It just shows a lack of imagination and likely attempts to cover the absence of a well-reasoned argument. We have a feature, it isn't perfect (is anything?), and we are trying to improve on it.
"I honestly don't have a problem [with dots]" keyword: "I" Others do (obviously. Else why would we be having this discussion?)
Let's put aside the issue of silhouettes for now. Dots are still just a poor (and poor man's) implementation. There is so much that can be done for increasing accessibility and usability, and you're content with dots. Hell, the MINIMAP doesn't even use dots, and in RTS games that's the <u>only</u> thing that uses dots.
Every 'type' of hive-sight symbol should have a distinctive silhouette (for the dumb: not talking about the same silhouette as we were just talking about with L4D), such that if you saw them pure black on pure white (for example), you would be able to distinguish them. All un-needed or irrelevant information should be omitted or subdued, so that players can focus on important information e.g. when a non-hive structure is getting attacked on the opposite side of the map, I don't need to know; and when I'm fighting a marine, don't draw symbols on top of him.
Considering most people can run the game in a fairly decent resolution, would it be difficult to have some text pop up that says specifically where a player/building is being attacked?
I.e. a resource tower is being attacking in crevice, the hivemind says "Structure is under attack" and then some text comes up 'The resource tower in Crevice is under attack'
or simplified; '(A/The) (building) in (area) is under attack' and another variation: 'Lifeforms under attack in (area)'
same would go for pheromones,
'The commander would like you to (group at/group at the*/attack at/attack the*/defend at/defend the*) (area/structure in area/structure) (*inArea)' *Have one special case in the event(s) that you would like to have your team mates rally towards a specific building.
and just have it like the scrolling kills display (not necesarily in the top right though, maybe the top left or something?), so people know what's going on where..
However, I somewhat like being in the dark about things, it would stop people from having to say over the mic every time there's a battle event because it would be known from the event feed. There could even be a time ticket for each event so that you can see how long ago the event occurred, and plan accordingly.. i.e. if this is the following event feed comes up you kind of glance at it and you see that you have some options open.. you can go lerk/stay skulk and help the attacking front in vent, or perhaps you check your map and that's cleared up but an ally of yours is heading to crevice, you can go back him up..
It looks complicated but it would be something like: <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->'The commander would like you to defend at Data Core' (2:14) 'A hydra in Data Core is under attack' (2:19) 'Lifeforms under attack in Data Core' (2:20) 'The resource tower in Data Core is under attack' (2:22) 'The commander would like you to attack at Data Core' (2:24) 'Lifeforms under attack in Data Core' (2:27) 'The commander would like you to group at Data Core' (2:28) 'Lifeforms under attack in Crossroads' (2:30) 'Lifeforms under attack in Ventilation' (2:35) 'A cyst in Crevice is under attack' (2:37) 'The commander would like you to defend the resource tower in Crevice' (2:39)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I mean it might be annoying but for the new players an event feed like this will/should remind them where to be... a feed like this could also include things that may be confusing to new players like 'The commander has provided you with cloaking, you are now invisible', 'The commander would like more players to evolve into Lerks', 'Your ally has spotted an enemy in Heliport' (perhaps with the radio commands?)
this idea is basically taken from CS.. but with the added time stamp thing, not sure what other game has an event feed like that. Essentially you want allt he information to be nearer to the end of the text so that all you have to do is read the end "in Area" "Area" mostly, so people can cross reference their map to see what location needs the most attention.
I posted this topic as a response to the myriad of threads I read that are trying to cause some further limitation to alien (esp. Fade). We are making a game not disassembling one. Currently, the only hope of a win for Kharaa is 1. Skulk rush or 2.rush 2nd hive and fade fast (while the their is still some advantage).
Issue; If Late game is incurred, I have a horrid time as alien, as the hive-mind is giving me 1000's of instructions simultaneously. Solution; Implement player pheromone. Commander selects player and allocates position. All alerts of that area and immediately adjacent area are communicated to that player, but not to other players (in other areas). If you are out of your area you will be harrased by hive mind to return to area (of pheromone). Issue; A marine starts with 3 very effective attacks. A skulk has 1. Solution: Make rifle-butt a Stun attack, and give parasite SOMETHING! iSSue; Although bile bomb is great at cracking the slow & painful siege of a turret farming commander, it cannot be effectively delivered. Solution: Have a 'frog-jump' AND 'stick ability. Hold space to get a higher jump then release. When connected to wall press space (or crouch) again to cling).
The aliens can go lerk or gorge fairly quickly though, and I think that is overlooked.. I think maybe the commander should be able to put out tickets of some sort that reveals an icon of what he would like more of, in lifeforms. Like, if there's a lack of lerks he put out the "Lerk Ticket" by clicking a button somewhere, and an icon is revealed to the team, including the commander that he has put out a ticket for more people to evolve to lerk.. the same can be done with like gorge.. and perhaps when the tickets are filled they just go away.
<!--quoteo(post=1892587:date=Jan 4 2012, 12:52 PM:name=Corpsey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corpsey @ Jan 4 2012, 12:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892587"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The aliens can go lerk or gorge fairly quickly though, and I think that is overlooked.. I think maybe the commander should be able to put out tickets of some sort that reveals an icon of what he would like more of, in lifeforms. Like, if there's a lack of lerks he put out the "Lerk Ticket" by clicking a button somewhere, and an icon is revealed to the team, including the commander that he has put out a ticket for more people to evolve to lerk.. the same can be done with like gorge.. and perhaps when the tickets are filled they just go away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea. BUT, commander is not qualified to dictate the battle strategy of the units at the front since it is only a birds eye view. Adding new voice options to aliens, on the other hand.. e.g.
voice select [x - 1] need builder [x - 2] need 'higher lifeform' [z - 1] preparing to gestate (cover me)
This will alert both nearby players and hive-command of desires or intent.*
*A rough guideline of new voice options I would like to see added to Kharaa.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Considering that we have voice chat in NS2 those will most likely not be used - I'd be more inclined to rebinding them to something more useful than that.
For people without a headset though.. but yeah mic is useful too.
Some people though, like in CS for instance, have children and they don't put their volume up high when they play so not to disturb their kin. So for people that are playing with low volume, visual queues would address them to something that they might miss by having low/no volume. anyways.. I don't know like you said it's not as much of a problem, I don't see the real needs for any of this if people are in a perfect situation to play the game, but life happens and sometimes visual aids could be useful..
Rereading the main post though, I personally don't have any problem with checking my map to figure out what the hivemind is trying to say.. these ideas would mostly be for new players.
<!--quoteo(post=1892592:date=Jan 4 2012, 01:22 PM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Jan 4 2012, 01:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Considering that we have voice chat in NS2 those will most likely not be used - I'd be more inclined to rebinding them to something more useful than that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We had voice chat in NS1, which I ALWAYS muted because of the need to focus on ingame sounds (amongst other things).
<!--quoteo(post=1892594:date=Jan 4 2012, 02:19 PM:name=Corpsey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corpsey @ Jan 4 2012, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892594"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For people without a headset though.. but yeah mic is useful too.
Some people though, like in CS for instance, have children and they don't put their volume up high when they play so not to disturb their kin. So for people that are playing with low volume, visual queues would address them to something that they might miss by having low/no volume. anyways.. I don't know like you said it's not as much of a problem, I don't see the real needs for any of this if people are in a perfect situation to play the game, but life happens and sometimes visual aids could be useful..
Rereading the main post though, I personally don't have any problem with checking my map to figure out what the hivemind is trying to say.. these ideas would mostly be for new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As new maps are added to rotation we will all be 'new players' in a way.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
Right now the voice chat is so low in game that it hardly interferes with game sounds as it is. I would think that there would be voice volume options in the future.
Also: I would also think that by looking at the scoreboard and glancing at the kills that come through on the HUD would be sufficient enough. Really, the only thing I see is that there's a huge lack of situational awareness on the player's part. If you're playing with low sound/no voice comms then that should be a huge thing to have. There's a line between helping players and holding their hands.
I've been around NS1 for a very long time and have played many games with voice comm muted, and yet was still able to get a grasp as to what was happening where by use of minimap. This game, compared to NS1, doesn't have the huge learning curve that it does now if new players want to get into the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1892590:date=Jan 4 2012, 11:05 AM:name=measles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (measles @ Jan 4 2012, 11:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892590"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like this idea. BUT, commander is <b>not qualified</b> to dictate the battle strategy of the units at the front since it is <b>only</b> a birds eye view.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What? Isn't the commander <b>more</b> qualified because he can view more information at once? It's not as if the commander has <b>never</b> played on the ground.
And the solution to not giving a player 1000's of notifications at once, is for the game to not give the player 1000's of notifications at once. Irrelevant information must be omitted (non-hive structure under attack on the other side of the map). More relevant information must take precedence over less relevant information (i.e. draw symbols BEHIND entities). Less relevant or important information should be more subdued (parasite > other enemies in hive sight > pheromone markers > other notifications). Different types (and degrees) of notifications should be visually distinct for quickly conveying information (different colours, shapes). Basically, make the hive-sight less of a cluster-######, and have the game allow a player to focus on relevant and important information.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's a line between helping players and holding their hands.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What suggestion, specifically, do you think crosses this line?
Comments
actually, we're talking about parasite specifically. if it isn't dealing damage over time (it shouldn't be) it should be serving some other purpose - in this case, it is relaying information about its host. it isn't such a stretch of logic that it could relay more detailed information.
konata, I don't think anyone's trying to 'fix' what isn't 'broken'. In fact, I hope no one ever uses that phrase as an argument again. It just shows a lack of imagination and likely attempts to cover the absence of a well-reasoned argument. We have a feature, it isn't perfect (is anything?), and we are trying to improve on it.
"I honestly don't have a problem [with dots]"
keyword: "I"
Others do (obviously. Else why would we be having this discussion?)
Let's put aside the issue of silhouettes for now. Dots are still just a poor (and poor man's) implementation. There is so much that can be done for increasing accessibility and usability, and you're content with dots. Hell, the MINIMAP doesn't even use dots, and in RTS games that's the <u>only</u> thing that uses dots.
Every 'type' of hive-sight symbol should have a distinctive silhouette (for the dumb: not talking about the same silhouette as we were just talking about with L4D), such that if you saw them pure black on pure white (for example), you would be able to distinguish them. All un-needed or irrelevant information should be omitted or subdued, so that players can focus on important information e.g. when a non-hive structure is getting attacked on the opposite side of the map, I don't need to know; and when I'm fighting a marine, don't draw symbols on top of him.
Less is more.
I.e. a resource tower is being attacking in crevice, the hivemind says "Structure is under attack" and then some text comes up 'The resource tower in Crevice is under attack'
or simplified;
'(A/The) (building) in (area) is under attack'
and another variation:
'Lifeforms under attack in (area)'
same would go for pheromones,
'The commander would like you to (group at/group at the*/attack at/attack the*/defend at/defend the*) (area/structure in area/structure) (*inArea)'
*Have one special case in the event(s) that you would like to have your team mates rally towards a specific building.
and just have it like the scrolling kills display (not necesarily in the top right though, maybe the top left or something?), so people know what's going on where..
However, I somewhat like being in the dark about things, it would stop people from having to say over the mic every time there's a battle event because it would be known from the event feed. There could even be a time ticket for each event so that you can see how long ago the event occurred, and plan accordingly.. i.e. if this is the following event feed comes up you kind of glance at it and you see that you have some options open.. you can go lerk/stay skulk and help the attacking front in vent, or perhaps you check your map and that's cleared up but an ally of yours is heading to crevice, you can go back him up..
It looks complicated but it would be something like:
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->'The commander would like you to defend at Data Core' (2:14)
'A hydra in Data Core is under attack' (2:19)
'Lifeforms under attack in Data Core' (2:20)
'The resource tower in Data Core is under attack' (2:22)
'The commander would like you to attack at Data Core' (2:24)
'Lifeforms under attack in Data Core' (2:27)
'The commander would like you to group at Data Core' (2:28)
'Lifeforms under attack in Crossroads' (2:30)
'Lifeforms under attack in Ventilation' (2:35)
'A cyst in Crevice is under attack' (2:37)
'The commander would like you to defend the resource tower in Crevice' (2:39)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I mean it might be annoying but for the new players an event feed like this will/should remind them where to be... a feed like this could also include things that may be confusing to new players like 'The commander has provided you with cloaking, you are now invisible', 'The commander would like more players to evolve into Lerks', 'Your ally has spotted an enemy in Heliport' (perhaps with the radio commands?)
this idea is basically taken from CS.. but with the added time stamp thing, not sure what other game has an event feed like that. Essentially you want allt he information to be nearer to the end of the text so that all you have to do is read the end "in Area" "Area" mostly, so people can cross reference their map to see what location needs the most attention.
Currently, the only hope of a win for Kharaa is 1. Skulk rush or 2.rush 2nd hive and fade fast (while the their is still some advantage).
Issue; If Late game is incurred, I have a horrid time as alien, as the hive-mind is giving me 1000's of instructions simultaneously.
Solution; Implement player pheromone. Commander selects player and allocates position. All alerts of that area and immediately adjacent area are communicated to that player, but not to other players (in other areas). If you are out of your area you will be harrased by hive mind to return to area (of pheromone).
Issue; A marine starts with 3 very effective attacks. A skulk has 1.
Solution: Make rifle-butt a Stun attack, and give parasite SOMETHING!
iSSue; Although bile bomb is great at cracking the slow & painful siege of a turret farming commander, it cannot be effectively delivered.
Solution: Have a 'frog-jump' AND 'stick ability. Hold space to get a higher jump then release. When connected to wall press space (or crouch) again to cling).
These are great ideas if I do say so myself.
I like this idea. BUT, commander is not qualified to dictate the battle strategy of the units at the front since it is only a birds eye view.
Adding new voice options to aliens, on the other hand.. e.g.
voice select [x - 1] need builder
[x - 2] need 'higher lifeform'
[z - 1] preparing to gestate (cover me)
This will alert both nearby players and hive-command of desires or intent.*
*A rough guideline of new voice options I would like to see added to Kharaa.
Some people though, like in CS for instance, have children and they don't put their volume up high when they play so not to disturb their kin. So for people that are playing with low volume, visual queues would address them to something that they might miss by having low/no volume. anyways.. I don't know like you said it's not as much of a problem, I don't see the real needs for any of this if people are in a perfect situation to play the game, but life happens and sometimes visual aids could be useful..
Rereading the main post though, I personally don't have any problem with checking my map to figure out what the hivemind is trying to say.. these ideas would mostly be for new players.
We had voice chat in NS1, which I ALWAYS muted because of the need to focus on ingame sounds (amongst other things).
<!--quoteo(post=1892594:date=Jan 4 2012, 02:19 PM:name=Corpsey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corpsey @ Jan 4 2012, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892594"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For people without a headset though.. but yeah mic is useful too.
Some people though, like in CS for instance, have children and they don't put their volume up high when they play so not to disturb their kin. So for people that are playing with low volume, visual queues would address them to something that they might miss by having low/no volume. anyways.. I don't know like you said it's not as much of a problem, I don't see the real needs for any of this if people are in a perfect situation to play the game, but life happens and sometimes visual aids could be useful..
Rereading the main post though, I personally don't have any problem with checking my map to figure out what the hivemind is trying to say.. these ideas would mostly be for new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As new maps are added to rotation we will all be 'new players' in a way.
Also: I would also think that by looking at the scoreboard and glancing at the kills that come through on the HUD would be sufficient enough. Really, the only thing I see is that there's a huge lack of situational awareness on the player's part. If you're playing with low sound/no voice comms then that should be a huge thing to have. There's a line between helping players and holding their hands.
I've been around NS1 for a very long time and have played many games with voice comm muted, and yet was still able to get a grasp as to what was happening where by use of minimap. This game, compared to NS1, doesn't have the huge learning curve that it does now if new players want to get into the game.
What? Isn't the commander <b>more</b> qualified because he can view more information at once? It's not as if the commander has <b>never</b> played on the ground.
And the solution to not giving a player 1000's of notifications at once, is for the game to not give the player 1000's of notifications at once. Irrelevant information must be omitted (non-hive structure under attack on the other side of the map). More relevant information must take precedence over less relevant information (i.e. draw symbols BEHIND entities). Less relevant or important information should be more subdued (parasite > other enemies in hive sight > pheromone markers > other notifications). Different types (and degrees) of notifications should be visually distinct for quickly conveying information (different colours, shapes). Basically, make the hive-sight less of a cluster-######, and have the game allow a player to focus on relevant and important information.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's a line between helping players and holding their hands.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What suggestion, specifically, do you think crosses this line?