Hitreg improved dramatically. Marines previously hardened in the fires of "aim perfectly or die" now slaughter skulks who wallowed in the swamp of "even walking in a straight line is relatively safe".
<!--quoteo(post=1894758:date=Jan 16 2012, 09:25 AM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Jan 16 2012, 09:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894758"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gorges die literally instantly, it really sucks. :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is good for learning purposes. Players need to learn that Gorg's ought be on the creep at all times and have an escort handy when even nearing the battle-lines.
<!--quoteo(post=1894760:date=Jan 16 2012, 09:30 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Underwhelmed @ Jan 16 2012, 09:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894760"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If there's an imbalance, the solution is either going to be smaller models/hitboxes and faster aliens, or just more HP. I hope it's the former.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We haven't yet seen the introduction of MANY of the alien ability's. I agree that, at the moment, alien defences are lame. There was a big call to nerf the FADE.
<!--quoteo(post=1894770:date=Jan 16 2012, 12:16 AM:name=measles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (measles @ Jan 16 2012, 12:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894770"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is good for learning purposes. Players need to learn that Gorg's ought be on the creep at all times and have an escort handy when even nearing the battle-lines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or maybe next time I'll just spend my res on a lifeform capable of doing <i>anything</i>.
<!--quoteo(post=1894774:date=Jan 15 2012, 07:29 PM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Jan 15 2012, 07:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894774"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or maybe next time I'll just spend my res on a lifeform capable of doing <i>anything</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Gorges can do plenty of stuff, just not in a fight. For a life form that costs 10 res and has a bunch of support functionality, it wouldn't make much sense for them to be able to hold their own very well.
Please stop saying it "costs" 10 res. Costs who? Costs you? So? You'll get another 10 res in a minute if you have just 2 RTs. Costs your team? Nope - you spending that res does not affect your team's economic situation at all. PR isn't a true cost, it's a technology limit. PR prices affect the accessibility (the ease or difficulty with which you obtain something) rather than the access (how many of something you are able to obtain) of any purchases. Using an RTS analogy, it's no longer used for purchasing units, but for unlocking them. There is little opportunity cost involved, and little consideration required.
Why was this decided, or why might it be beneficial? It allows for the game to easily scale with time sizes: more players get access to better stuff, and you don't have to balance for a single team size. There is wisdom in that, but it does greatly detract from the resource-management portion of the RTS metagame.
I just wish UWE would balance the game with that understanding in mind (and that players stop considering PR a cost, using that as justification). Assume that when onoses and heavies are "unlocked", everyone will be playing onoses and heavies.
So more on topic? If the gorge is useless (uselessness being subjective), that's an inherent problem with the gorge, and cannot be justified by its PR "cost" or its other abilities, since PR "cost" is illusory.
<!--quoteo(post=1894810:date=Jan 16 2012, 12:02 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 16 2012, 12:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894810"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please stop saying it "costs" 10 res. Costs who? Costs you? So? You'll get another 10 res in a minute if you have just 2 RTs. Costs your team? Nope - you spending that res does not affect your team's economic situation at all. PR isn't a true cost, it's a technology limit. PR prices affect the accessibility (the ease or difficulty with which you obtain something) rather than the access (how many of something you are able to obtain) of any purchases. Using an RTS analogy, it's no longer used for purchasing units, but for unlocking them. There is little opportunity cost involved, and little consideration required.
Why was this decided, or why might it be beneficial? It allows for the game to easily scale with time sizes: more players get access to better stuff, and you don't have to balance for a single team size. There is wisdom in that, but it does greatly detract from the resource-management portion of the RTS metagame.
I just wish UWE would balance the game with that understanding in mind (and that players stop considering PR a cost, using that as justification). Assume that when onoses and heavies are "unlocked", everyone will be playing onoses and heavies.
So more on topic? If the gorge is useless (uselessness being subjective), that's an inherent problem with the gorge, and cannot be justified by its PR "cost" or its other abilities, since PR "cost" is illusory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Huh? It's not like Onoses are free once you hit 75 res or whatever for the first time. If you die before you can get that back, you can't afford to go Onos anymore. And the more times you spend 10 res going Gorge the longer it's going to be able to take you to afford a higher lifeform. Res cost means a lot more than just the point in the game that they become available. It is a cost pretty much by definition, and the res flow is your income.
My point was that 10 res is not a lot, and if it conferred a significant combat advantage over Skulk in addition to healing, cysts and hydras, it would hardly be worth playing skulk anymore except as a gimped necessity for saving up res. Going Lerk costs 3 times as much as a comparison, and they're not exactly unstoppable killing machines.
Hmm, that wasn't exactly my point. Actually maybe I'm getting really off-topic here though, and not really addressing what you're saying. (You might not even disagree with me.)
<!--coloro:gray--><span style="color:gray"><!--/coloro-->But anyway, since I've already started...
Let's consider it this way.
First, some assumptions: Let's say that UnitX costs 20 res in NS1, and 80 res in NS2. There are 4 resource towers which produce 5 resources a minute. Everyone earns res at the same rate (but let's assume that res goes where it's "needed"). No one spends anything until the 4 minute mark.
In NS1, that means a team can field N(UnitX) = (4 towers * 5 resources per tower per minute * 4 minutes) / 20 res per UnitX = 4 UnitX ( independent of the number of players) AveragePerPlayer(UnitX) = 4 UnitX / N players = 4/N UnitX per player ( dependent on the number of players )
In NS2, that means a team can field N(UnitX) = (N players * 4 towers * 5 resources per tower per player per minute * 4 minutes) / 80 res per UnitX = N UnitX ( dependent on the number of players) AveragePerPlayer(UnitX) = N UnitX / N players = 1 UnitX per player ( independent of the number of players)
Therefore, it's no longer good enough to say "it costs this much, it should have a proportional amount of power".
NS1 was balanced because the resources were essentially finite and dispersed amongst the team, but of course, it was dependent on the number of players so it could only be balanced for one team size: it was fine that an onos could be worth so much more than a vanilla marine, since it was balanced on an RTS metagame level. You lose that onos right away, and you've set your team back a significant amount of res.
NS2's units aren't balanced on an RTS metagame level, but for some reason it often tries to be. It should instead aspire to be balanced on an FPS level. The power differential between a 0 PR and 75 PR unit shouldn't be excessive, because that just isn't that fun, and a team with a temporary res imbalance in their favour means that that team will always win, exacerbating the imbalance: in a 16 person a team game, where that team could before field, say, 4 fades at once, now it can field the full 16. With the balance philosophy as it is, I wouldn't want to play against that team.
In the gorge's case, costing 10 res should confer SOME advantage over the skulk, but not be so much less advantageous than the lerk or fade. If that advantage is in support, then so be it. I guess the gorge is a bad example for my case, since it is somewhat "balanced" in that sense: it isn't too powerful just for costing 10 res. Maybe marine weapons would be a better example, really.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The bigger problem, which is fairly unrelated to my rant, is that the gorge isn't even that great in a support role, really. It hangs back, it heals players who come back, it occasionally drops some hydras or some cysts. It desperately needs more to do at the front lines and/or behind the front lines: If we're increasing what it does at the front lines, it needs to actually be a viable option, it needs to be at least almost as useful as a skulk if not moreso (but not much moreso); if we're increasing what it does behind the front lines, it needs to actually be an attractive option, it needs to be at least almost as useful as the gorge in NS1 was.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1894754:date=Jan 15 2012, 03:14 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jan 15 2012, 03:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hitreg improved dramatically. Marines previously hardened in the fires of "aim perfectly or die" now slaughter skulks who wallowed in the swamp of "even walking in a straight line is relatively safe".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i so have to agree.. it happened to me. well said.
definitely have to boost skulk speed slightly to account for this..
<!--quoteo(post=1894828:date=Jan 16 2012, 12:37 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jan 16 2012, 12:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894828"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i so have to agree.. it happened to me. well said.
definitely have to boost skulk speed slightly to account for this..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And turn on friendly fire for mines. Even if u get to the marine, the marine is standing on a mine. Which is going to blow u up before u are able to kill the marine. I've personally nothing against the mines in general but the marines are just spamming them everywhere and dont even bother trying to hit the aliens with their lmg or shotgun because the alien will die touching the mines.
<!--quoteo(post=1894855:date=Jan 16 2012, 11:56 AM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jan 16 2012, 11:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even if u get to the marine, the marine is standing on a mine. Which is going to blow u up before u are able to kill the marine. I've personally nothing against the mines in general but the marines are just spamming them everywhere and dont even bother trying to hit the aliens with their lmg or shotgun because the alien will die touching the mines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This made me rage quit so hard several times during the weekend :/
<!--quoteo(post=1894855:date=Jan 16 2012, 10:56 AM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jan 16 2012, 10:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And turn on friendly fire for mines. Even if u get to the marine, the marine is standing on a mine. Which is going to blow u up before u are able to kill the marine. I've personally nothing against the mines in general but the marines are just spamming them everywhere and dont even bother trying to hit the aliens with their lmg or shotgun because the alien will die touching the mines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Uhm just shoot the mine with parasite, so hard? There was mines in ns1, not that giant like in ns2 but there was. But marines are a bit op with that "good" aim now, because it seems everything is going the ns1 way but not all, thats the problem. I mean skulks wasn't that big and slow, but now they are, which makes it very easy to kill them. The gorge is like a walking trashcan, big easy target, only with luck he survives ^^
If i play marines we win like 7 of 8 rounds, because there is nothing aliens can realy do if they got only one hive. The first big problem is the defence, and if a team has no defence...the enemy can simply kill them. I notice so much times marines just rush like skulks and kill a hive in like 10 seconds! Most people don't go gorge or place hydras because its so expensive and the gorge can only heal, spit and hydras(cysts dont count...they just increase the costs). So if you decide going gorge and place some hydras, the most time your res. just enough to go gorge + 1-2 hydras. But the maps are most times like you can not place a good hydra because there marines who have flamethrower, arc, grenadelauncher and on. I mean i like it if im marine but it always feels like david vs. goliath. The aliens have such a weak defence, maybe it change with onos but it would be insane to see a onos burn, get shoot by gl and minigun...the onos will be explode like a pinata. I like both sides but in 191, aliens just very weak. Let us compare:
Sentry = gorge bilebomb...if aliens got only one hive, they can not do anything against sentrys...and lerk, but the lerk has most times no place or view to the powernode. hydra = grenadelauncher (marines just need to research one time and they beat every building+6 or 7 grenades, remember in ns1 it was just 4+ long reload times which balance the game), then the marines got through wall shooting arcs and most times, just cutting the cysts. So you can see, its very easy for marines to break through alien defence, but as a alien, its mostly imposible, or can you tell me how to break through like 4 sentrys in every corner near powergenerator? And marines always use a lot of sentrys.
<!--quoteo(post=1894821:date=Jan 16 2012, 07:21 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 16 2012, 07:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894821"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First, some assumptions: Let's say that UnitX costs 20 res in NS1, and 80 res in NS2. There are 4 resource towers which produce 5 resources a minute. Everyone earns res at the same rate (but let's assume that res goes where it's "needed"). No one spends anything until the 4 minute mark.
In NS1, that means a team can field N(UnitX) = (4 towers * 5 resources per tower per minute * 4 minutes) / 20 res per UnitX = 4 UnitX ( independent of the number of players) AveragePerPlayer(UnitX) = 4 UnitX / N players = 4/N UnitX per player ( dependent on the number of players )
In NS2, that means a team can field N(UnitX) = (N players * 4 towers * 5 resources per tower per player per minute * 4 minutes) / 80 res per UnitX = N UnitX ( dependent on the number of players) AveragePerPlayer(UnitX) = N UnitX / N players = 1 UnitX per player ( independent of the number of players)
Therefore, it's no longer good enough to say "it costs this much, it should have a proportional amount of power".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the explanation, I didn't really realized that. So basically the harvester produces more (personal?) resources the more players there is ?
<!--quoteo(post=1894858:date=Jan 16 2012, 04:23 AM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Jan 16 2012, 04:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894858"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Uhm just shoot the mine with parasite, so hard? There was mines in ns1, not that giant like in ns2 but there was. But marines are a bit op with that "good" aim now, because it seems everything is going the ns1 way but not all, thats the problem. I mean skulks wasn't that big and slow, but now they are, which makes it very easy to kill them. The gorge is like a walking trashcan, big easy target, only with luck he survives ^^
If i play marines we win like 7 of 8 rounds, because there is nothing aliens can realy do if they got only one hive. The first big problem is the defence, and if a team has no defence...the enemy can simply kill them. I notice so much times marines just rush like skulks and kill a hive in like 10 seconds! Most people don't go gorge or place hydras because its so expensive and the gorge can only heal, spit and hydras(cysts dont count...they just increase the costs). So if you decide going gorge and place some hydras, the most time your res. just enough to go gorge + 1-2 hydras. But the maps are most times like you can not place a good hydra because there marines who have flamethrower, arc, grenadelauncher and on. I mean i like it if im marine but it always feels like david vs. goliath. The aliens have such a weak defence, maybe it change with onos but it would be insane to see a onos burn, get shoot by gl and minigun...the onos will be explode like a pinata. I like both sides but in 191, aliens just very weak. Let us compare:
Sentry = gorge bilebomb...if aliens got only one hive, they can not do anything against sentrys...and lerk, but the lerk has most times no place or view to the powernode. hydra = grenadelauncher (marines just need to research one time and they beat every building+6 or 7 grenades, remember in ns1 it was just 4+ long reload times which balance the game), then the marines got through wall shooting arcs and most times, just cutting the cysts. So you can see, its very easy for marines to break through alien defence, but as a alien, its mostly imposible, or can you tell me how to break through like 4 sentrys in every corner near powergenerator? And marines always use a lot of sentrys.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You need 5 shots of the parasite to destroy a mine, thats quite some time. Doing this is no problem when there are no marines around, but in most games i play the marines have a armory close to a hive and 5-10 mines around the armory. There's always atleast 1 marine at the armory and most times no vent from where you can shoot the mines. And if there is a vent, the marine can kill you, too. Also most times there are also sentrys. So nearly no chance to destroy the armory/PG.
The Flamethrower is pretty ridiculous also. It's damage is way to high for the amount it burns energy and for the time the player is on fire.
Also i'm always on struggle if to kill the rt or the power node. A single marine can easily repair the power node in no time. Damage to the RT is permanent as most comms dont repair the RTs. As a marine they destroy cysts in no time and can focus easily on the RT. The comms most time dont notice the destroyed cysts or are replacing them and i kill them easily again.
<!--quoteo(post=1894868:date=Jan 16 2012, 12:20 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jan 16 2012, 12:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894868"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You need 5 shots of the parasite to destroy a mine, thats quite some time. Doing this is no problem when there are no marines around, but in most games i play the marines have a armory close to a hive and 5-10 mines around the armory. There's always atleast 1 marine at the armory and most times no vent from where you can shoot the mines. And if there is a vent, the marine can kill you, too. Also most times there are also sentrys. So nearly no chance to destroy the armory/PG.
The Flamethrower is pretty ridiculous also. It's damage is way to high for the amount it burns energy and for the time the player is on fire.
Also i'm always on struggle if to kill the rt or the power node. A single marine can easily repair the power node in no time. Damage to the RT is permanent as most comms dont repair the RTs. As a marine they destroy cysts in no time and can focus easily on the RT. The comms most time dont notice the destroyed cysts or are replacing them and i kill them easily again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yay...browser crashs and remove my text...ok i take it short Flamethrower is way better now in my mind, finaly fixed. The mines i don't know, i saw a skulk shooting at it and it explodes, but gorge can kill it with spit or walk over it and heal himself? Mines are ok, there was already mines in ns1...i saw a gorge bile bombing 10 mines in a second...poor marines buy them before and lost all their res ^^
The grenade launcher is way much op and i hope they reduce or fix it. I mean if we count, 6 marines takes a LMG+GL with 6 grenades each, the grenades fired every second(? or every 1,5 seconds) that means 6 grenades every seconds...which alien can survive that in a hive? In NS1 the Grenade launcher was a powerfull and dangerous toy, you got your 4 bullets and your long reloading time, the other marines have to protect you! But in NS2, everybody can use the GL, the refilling at a armory takes 2 seconds to FULL... In my mind, they should take back the welder and change the grenade launcher. Maybe still as attachement, but slow reloading... Just wait, i guess and hope thats all because of beta, i mean they change the flamethrower in a very good way too.
<!--quoteo(post=1894870:date=Jan 16 2012, 05:42 AM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Jan 16 2012, 05:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894870"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just wait, i guess and hope thats all because of beta, i mean they change the flamethrower in a very good way too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As long as all mines lay on the ground it is no problem to get ride off them. Just place a cysts near them and they all detonate. Mines are only a problem if they are on walls because they have such a big hitbox that flying near walls is to dangerous for a lerk.
The gorge is weak alone but not easy to kill. With cara 3 he has 110 Armor and that is alot. Just always have an eascaperoute and dont run straight lines or if it is only 1 Marine with LMG charge at him and heal all the time while you straferun around him. And never forgett that a gorge heals faster than a hive on infestation and if the marines are busy at one side of the map 2 or even 1 bilebomb gorge can either destroy a powernode in seconds or atleast provoke a beacon. And spit has the pro that if you see a skulk atacking a building but you are too far away for bile spit it so the Skulk gets the +25% bonus from swarm.
<!--quoteo(post=1894861:date=Jan 16 2012, 06:36 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jan 16 2012, 06:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894861"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks for the explanation, I didn't really realized that. So basically the harvester produces more (personal?) resources the more players there is ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Everyone gets personal resources individually and independently, so on a team level, if you have N number of players and M number of towers and each produces L resources a minute, then as a team you produce N*M*L resources a minute.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
From my experience in the NS2 gathers on <a href="http://www.ensl.org" target="_blank">ensl</a> aliens still have the upper hand in terms of number of victories. Just because they got changed doesn't mean the marines are OP. And they are not. Really. Only thing I could see as a problem is the increased rate of fire on the rifle that came in patch 190/191.
NolSinklerOn the ClorfJoin Date: 2004-02-15Member: 26560Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1894810:date=Jan 16 2012, 01:02 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 16 2012, 01:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894810"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please stop saying it "costs" 10 res. Costs who? Costs you? So? You'll get another 10 res in a minute if you have just 2 RTs. Costs your team? Nope - you spending that res does not affect your team's economic situation at all. PR isn't a true cost, it's a technology limit. PR prices affect the accessibility (the ease or difficulty with which you obtain something) rather than the access (how many of something you are able to obtain) of any purchases. Using an RTS analogy, it's no longer used for purchasing units, but for unlocking them. There is little opportunity cost involved, and little consideration required.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is an opportunity cost. The 10 resources could be used for something else - such as lerk or fade - and time is a consideration. An opportunity cost is simply something that must be foregone when making a decision. The opportunity cost of becoming a gorge, then, would be the increased time that one must wait in order to become something else. In economics, opportunity cost is the same thing as a cost. So there is a cost to becoming a gorge, regardless of the fact that to regain those 10 resources will only take one minute.
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
@Harimau: One thing you have to take into account is that while you have 16 Fades, you also have 16 shotgun/flamer marines. I still agree with your point though, maybe they will have to make each lifeform cost more if you already have some on your team.
@Rest: I agree that mines are too spammy and a bit too powerful at the moment, but making a short push with a gorge cysting up their base will destroy 30 mines (costing 100 pres) for about 25 pres. The cysts don't even have to be connected to produce infestation.
I strongly disagree with skulks being useless or slow right now. When you get the hang of it, the walljumping is very powerful and can make you more than 2 times as fast as normal running speed. I am not a good player at all and have low fps, but I still get kills as a skulk against somewhat experienced players by using the walljumping to my advantage.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
Well in ns1 the alien resources meant more than just lifeforms. As you also needed to use the same resources to build important structures as a gorge, like hives and res towers. So there were less chances where the entire team would buy the same lifeform. As the res could be better used in areas such as resource gathering and defense.
When you separate lifeform and weapon costs from structure costs, you remove the barrier that stopped the entire team from spamming high lifeforms or weapons.
I love mines but it is WAY out of control at this point. This would be one item I would leave in the hands of the commander. Maybe something he can drop to players and it costs some Res to make it where they are not spammed all over the place.
Moving them to commander is a good idea, we have small number of players now but imagine 14v14, all marines buy mines, 28 mines in the field after five minutes...
<!--quoteo(post=1894944:date=Jan 16 2012, 01:32 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jan 16 2012, 01:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894944"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Moving them to commander is a good idea, we have small number of players now but imagine 14v14, all marines buy mines, 28 mines in the field after five minutes...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Assuming they would only buy one set. There are people playing the current build which are spending all their res on mines.... So i second that Mines back to the Commander, maybe even make them "rare" and not trigger by infestation or something like that.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
Removing them from the armory but still having players be able to place them would be best. The problem is the player's disposable income so they can just keep spending and spending on more mines.
<!--quoteo(post=1894948:date=Jan 16 2012, 11:59 AM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Jan 16 2012, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894948"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Removing them from the armory but still having players be able to place them would be best. The problem is the player's disposable income so they can just keep spending and spending on more mines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, this would be still be a player placed mine but just handed out by the commander, not the armory. Also a "per map" limit of total mines.
I remember in NS1 the gorge had some sort of a mine as well, it would remove all armor of the marine that stepped near it.
If babblers are brought back this needs to be Gorge deployed, like in NS1.
Both of these added to the gorge would help make him more playable and give him some better offense
<!--quoteo(post=1894928:date=Jan 17 2012, 02:02 AM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Jan 17 2012, 02:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894928"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Harimau: One thing you have to take into account is that while you have 16 Fades, you also have 16 shotgun/flamer marines. I still agree with your point though, maybe they will have to make each lifeform cost more if you already have some on your team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But that's exactly why I think that the roles and the costs have been devalued. Lifeform/Weapon power increases significantly from 'tier' to 'tier' (only because that's how it was in NS1). It would be foolish to NOT upgrade to a higher lifeform / more advanced weapon, because you know the other team is doing so. It's imperative if you want to survive. It's become less of a choice of what lifeform/weapon to choose, but when to choose a higher lifeform/weapon. And what happens when one team gains a single 'tier' advantage? Because of the significant power differential, that team steamrolls the other. Resources shouldn't be the be all and end all of the RTS metagame and certainly not for the FPS game. I guess my point is, they should decrease the power differential between 'tiers' (so that the difference between a tier N unit and a tier 0 unit is not too significant), and if they need to tighten up the costs, then so be it.
Comments
This is good for learning purposes.
Players need to learn that Gorg's ought be on the creep at all times and have an escort handy when even nearing the battle-lines.
<!--quoteo(post=1894760:date=Jan 16 2012, 09:30 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Underwhelmed @ Jan 16 2012, 09:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894760"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If there's an imbalance, the solution is either going to be smaller models/hitboxes and faster aliens, or just more HP. I hope it's the former.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We haven't yet seen the introduction of MANY of the alien ability's.
I agree that, at the moment, alien defences are lame. There was a big call to nerf the FADE.
Players need to learn that Gorg's ought be on the creep at all times and have an escort handy when even nearing the battle-lines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or maybe next time I'll just spend my res on a lifeform capable of doing <i>anything</i>.
Gorges can do plenty of stuff, just not in a fight. For a life form that costs 10 res and has a bunch of support functionality, it wouldn't make much sense for them to be able to hold their own very well.
Costs you? So? You'll get another 10 res in a minute if you have just 2 RTs.
Costs your team? Nope - you spending that res does not affect your team's economic situation at all.
PR isn't a true cost, it's a technology limit. PR prices affect the accessibility (the ease or difficulty with which you obtain something) rather than the access (how many of something you are able to obtain) of any purchases. Using an RTS analogy, it's no longer used for purchasing units, but for unlocking them. There is little opportunity cost involved, and little consideration required.
Why was this decided, or why might it be beneficial? It allows for the game to easily scale with time sizes: more players get access to better stuff, and you don't have to balance for a single team size. There is wisdom in that, but it does greatly detract from the resource-management portion of the RTS metagame.
I just wish UWE would balance the game with that understanding in mind (and that players stop considering PR a cost, using that as justification). Assume that when onoses and heavies are "unlocked", everyone will be playing onoses and heavies.
So more on topic? If the gorge is useless (uselessness being subjective), that's an inherent problem with the gorge, and cannot be justified by its PR "cost" or its other abilities, since PR "cost" is illusory.
Costs you? So? You'll get another 10 res in a minute if you have just 2 RTs.
Costs your team? Nope - you spending that res does not affect your team's economic situation at all.
PR isn't a true cost, it's a technology limit. PR prices affect the accessibility (the ease or difficulty with which you obtain something) rather than the access (how many of something you are able to obtain) of any purchases. Using an RTS analogy, it's no longer used for purchasing units, but for unlocking them. There is little opportunity cost involved, and little consideration required.
Why was this decided, or why might it be beneficial? It allows for the game to easily scale with time sizes: more players get access to better stuff, and you don't have to balance for a single team size. There is wisdom in that, but it does greatly detract from the resource-management portion of the RTS metagame.
I just wish UWE would balance the game with that understanding in mind (and that players stop considering PR a cost, using that as justification). Assume that when onoses and heavies are "unlocked", everyone will be playing onoses and heavies.
So more on topic? If the gorge is useless (uselessness being subjective), that's an inherent problem with the gorge, and cannot be justified by its PR "cost" or its other abilities, since PR "cost" is illusory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Huh? It's not like Onoses are free once you hit 75 res or whatever for the first time. If you die before you can get that back, you can't afford to go Onos anymore. And the more times you spend 10 res going Gorge the longer it's going to be able to take you to afford a higher lifeform. Res cost means a lot more than just the point in the game that they become available. It is a cost pretty much by definition, and the res flow is your income.
My point was that 10 res is not a lot, and if it conferred a significant combat advantage over Skulk in addition to healing, cysts and hydras, it would hardly be worth playing skulk anymore except as a gimped necessity for saving up res. Going Lerk costs 3 times as much as a comparison, and they're not exactly unstoppable killing machines.
<!--coloro:gray--><span style="color:gray"><!--/coloro-->But anyway, since I've already started...
Let's consider it this way.
First, some assumptions:
Let's say that UnitX costs 20 res in NS1, and 80 res in NS2. There are 4 resource towers which produce 5 resources a minute. Everyone earns res at the same rate (but let's assume that res goes where it's "needed"). No one spends anything until the 4 minute mark.
In NS1, that means a team can field
N(UnitX) = (4 towers * 5 resources per tower per minute * 4 minutes) / 20 res per UnitX = 4 UnitX ( independent of the number of players)
AveragePerPlayer(UnitX) = 4 UnitX / N players = 4/N UnitX per player ( dependent on the number of players )
In NS2, that means a team can field
N(UnitX) = (N players * 4 towers * 5 resources per tower per player per minute * 4 minutes) / 80 res per UnitX = N UnitX ( dependent on the number of players)
AveragePerPlayer(UnitX) = N UnitX / N players = 1 UnitX per player ( independent of the number of players)
Therefore, it's no longer good enough to say "it costs this much, it should have a proportional amount of power".
NS1 was balanced because the resources were essentially finite and dispersed amongst the team, but of course, it was dependent on the number of players so it could only be balanced for one team size: it was fine that an onos could be worth so much more than a vanilla marine, since it was balanced on an RTS metagame level. You lose that onos right away, and you've set your team back a significant amount of res.
NS2's units aren't balanced on an RTS metagame level, but for some reason it often tries to be. It should instead aspire to be balanced on an FPS level. The power differential between a 0 PR and 75 PR unit shouldn't be excessive, because that just isn't that fun, and a team with a temporary res imbalance in their favour means that that team will always win, exacerbating the imbalance: in a 16 person a team game, where that team could before field, say, 4 fades at once, now it can field the full 16. With the balance philosophy as it is, I wouldn't want to play against that team.
In the gorge's case, costing 10 res should confer SOME advantage over the skulk, but not be so much less advantageous than the lerk or fade. If that advantage is in support, then so be it. I guess the gorge is a bad example for my case, since it is somewhat "balanced" in that sense: it isn't too powerful just for costing 10 res. Maybe marine weapons would be a better example, really.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The bigger problem, which is fairly unrelated to my rant, is that the gorge isn't even that great in a support role, really. It hangs back, it heals players who come back, it occasionally drops some hydras or some cysts. It desperately needs more to do at the front lines and/or behind the front lines: If we're increasing what it does at the front lines, it needs to actually be a viable option, it needs to be at least almost as useful as a skulk if not moreso (but not much moreso); if we're increasing what it does behind the front lines, it needs to actually be an attractive option, it needs to be at least almost as useful as the gorge in NS1 was.
i so have to agree.. it happened to me.
well said.
definitely have to boost skulk speed slightly to account for this..
well said.
definitely have to boost skulk speed slightly to account for this..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And turn on friendly fire for mines. Even if u get to the marine, the marine is standing on a mine. Which is going to blow u up before u are able to kill the marine. I've personally nothing against the mines in general but the marines are just spamming them everywhere and dont even bother trying to hit the aliens with their lmg or shotgun because the alien will die touching the mines.
This made me rage quit so hard several times during the weekend :/
Uhm just shoot the mine with parasite, so hard?
There was mines in ns1, not that giant like in ns2 but there was.
But marines are a bit op with that "good" aim now, because it seems everything is going the ns1 way but not all, thats the problem.
I mean skulks wasn't that big and slow, but now they are, which makes it very easy to kill them.
The gorge is like a walking trashcan, big easy target, only with luck he survives ^^
If i play marines we win like 7 of 8 rounds, because there is nothing aliens can realy do if they got only one hive.
The first big problem is the defence, and if a team has no defence...the enemy can simply kill them.
I notice so much times marines just rush like skulks and kill a hive in like 10 seconds!
Most people don't go gorge or place hydras because its so expensive and the gorge can only heal, spit and hydras(cysts dont count...they just increase the costs).
So if you decide going gorge and place some hydras, the most time your res. just enough to go gorge + 1-2 hydras.
But the maps are most times like you can not place a good hydra because there marines who have flamethrower, arc, grenadelauncher and on.
I mean i like it if im marine but it always feels like david vs. goliath.
The aliens have such a weak defence, maybe it change with onos but it would be insane to see a onos burn, get shoot by gl and minigun...the onos will be explode like a pinata.
I like both sides but in 191, aliens just very weak.
Let us compare:
Sentry = gorge bilebomb...if aliens got only one hive, they can not do anything against sentrys...and lerk, but the lerk has most times no place or view to the powernode.
hydra = grenadelauncher (marines just need to research one time and they beat every building+6 or 7 grenades, remember in ns1 it was just 4+ long reload times which balance the game), then the marines got through wall shooting arcs and most times, just cutting the cysts.
So you can see, its very easy for marines to break through alien defence, but as a alien, its mostly imposible, or can you tell me how to break through like 4 sentrys in every corner near powergenerator?
And marines always use a lot of sentrys.
Let's say that UnitX costs 20 res in NS1, and 80 res in NS2. There are 4 resource towers which produce 5 resources a minute. Everyone earns res at the same rate (but let's assume that res goes where it's "needed"). No one spends anything until the 4 minute mark.
In NS1, that means a team can field
N(UnitX) = (4 towers * 5 resources per tower per minute * 4 minutes) / 20 res per UnitX = 4 UnitX ( independent of the number of players)
AveragePerPlayer(UnitX) = 4 UnitX / N players = 4/N UnitX per player ( dependent on the number of players )
In NS2, that means a team can field
N(UnitX) = (N players * 4 towers * 5 resources per tower per player per minute * 4 minutes) / 80 res per UnitX = N UnitX ( dependent on the number of players)
AveragePerPlayer(UnitX) = N UnitX / N players = 1 UnitX per player ( independent of the number of players)
Therefore, it's no longer good enough to say "it costs this much, it should have a proportional amount of power".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the explanation, I didn't really realized that. So basically the harvester produces more (personal?) resources the more players there is ?
There was mines in ns1, not that giant like in ns2 but there was.
But marines are a bit op with that "good" aim now, because it seems everything is going the ns1 way but not all, thats the problem.
I mean skulks wasn't that big and slow, but now they are, which makes it very easy to kill them.
The gorge is like a walking trashcan, big easy target, only with luck he survives ^^
If i play marines we win like 7 of 8 rounds, because there is nothing aliens can realy do if they got only one hive.
The first big problem is the defence, and if a team has no defence...the enemy can simply kill them.
I notice so much times marines just rush like skulks and kill a hive in like 10 seconds!
Most people don't go gorge or place hydras because its so expensive and the gorge can only heal, spit and hydras(cysts dont count...they just increase the costs).
So if you decide going gorge and place some hydras, the most time your res. just enough to go gorge + 1-2 hydras.
But the maps are most times like you can not place a good hydra because there marines who have flamethrower, arc, grenadelauncher and on.
I mean i like it if im marine but it always feels like david vs. goliath.
The aliens have such a weak defence, maybe it change with onos but it would be insane to see a onos burn, get shoot by gl and minigun...the onos will be explode like a pinata.
I like both sides but in 191, aliens just very weak.
Let us compare:
Sentry = gorge bilebomb...if aliens got only one hive, they can not do anything against sentrys...and lerk, but the lerk has most times no place or view to the powernode.
hydra = grenadelauncher (marines just need to research one time and they beat every building+6 or 7 grenades, remember in ns1 it was just 4+ long reload times which balance the game), then the marines got through wall shooting arcs and most times, just cutting the cysts.
So you can see, its very easy for marines to break through alien defence, but as a alien, its mostly imposible, or can you tell me how to break through like 4 sentrys in every corner near powergenerator?
And marines always use a lot of sentrys.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You need 5 shots of the parasite to destroy a mine, thats quite some time. Doing this is no problem when there are no marines around, but in most games i play the marines have a armory close to a hive and 5-10 mines around the armory. There's always atleast 1 marine at the armory and most times no vent from where you can shoot the mines. And if there is a vent, the marine can kill you, too. Also most times there are also sentrys. So nearly no chance to destroy the armory/PG.
The Flamethrower is pretty ridiculous also. It's damage is way to high for the amount it burns energy and for the time the player is on fire.
Also i'm always on struggle if to kill the rt or the power node. A single marine can easily repair the power node in no time. Damage to the RT is permanent as most comms dont repair the RTs. As a marine they destroy cysts in no time and can focus easily on the RT. The comms most time dont notice the destroyed cysts or are replacing them and i kill them easily again.
The Flamethrower is pretty ridiculous also. It's damage is way to high for the amount it burns energy and for the time the player is on fire.
Also i'm always on struggle if to kill the rt or the power node. A single marine can easily repair the power node in no time. Damage to the RT is permanent as most comms dont repair the RTs. As a marine they destroy cysts in no time and can focus easily on the RT. The comms most time dont notice the destroyed cysts or are replacing them and i kill them easily again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yay...browser crashs and remove my text...ok i take it short
Flamethrower is way better now in my mind, finaly fixed.
The mines i don't know, i saw a skulk shooting at it and it explodes, but gorge can kill it with spit or walk over it and heal himself?
Mines are ok, there was already mines in ns1...i saw a gorge bile bombing 10 mines in a second...poor marines buy them before and lost all their res ^^
The grenade launcher is way much op and i hope they reduce or fix it.
I mean if we count, 6 marines takes a LMG+GL with 6 grenades each, the grenades fired every second(? or every 1,5 seconds) that means 6 grenades every seconds...which alien can survive that in a hive?
In NS1 the Grenade launcher was a powerfull and dangerous toy, you got your 4 bullets and your long reloading time, the other marines have to protect you!
But in NS2, everybody can use the GL, the refilling at a armory takes 2 seconds to FULL...
In my mind, they should take back the welder and change the grenade launcher.
Maybe still as attachement, but slow reloading...
Just wait, i guess and hope thats all because of beta, i mean they change the flamethrower in a very good way too.
Flamethrower while standing on a mine = godmode
The gorge is weak alone but not easy to kill. With cara 3 he has 110 Armor and that is alot. Just always have an eascaperoute and dont run straight lines or if it is only 1 Marine with LMG charge at him and heal all the time while you straferun around him.
And never forgett that a gorge heals faster than a hive on infestation and if the marines are busy at one side of the map 2 or even 1 bilebomb gorge can either destroy a powernode in seconds or atleast provoke a beacon. And spit has the pro that if you see a skulk atacking a building but you are too far away for bile spit it so the Skulk gets the +25% bonus from swarm.
Everyone gets personal resources individually and independently, so on a team level, if you have N number of players and M number of towers and each produces L resources a minute, then as a team you produce N*M*L resources a minute.
Just because they got changed doesn't mean the marines are OP. And they are not. Really.
Only thing I could see as a problem is the increased rate of fire on the rifle that came in patch 190/191.
Costs you? So? You'll get another 10 res in a minute if you have just 2 RTs.
Costs your team? Nope - you spending that res does not affect your team's economic situation at all.
PR isn't a true cost, it's a technology limit. PR prices affect the accessibility (the ease or difficulty with which you obtain something) rather than the access (how many of something you are able to obtain) of any purchases. Using an RTS analogy, it's no longer used for purchasing units, but for unlocking them. There is little opportunity cost involved, and little consideration required.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is an opportunity cost. The 10 resources could be used for something else - such as lerk or fade - and time is a consideration. An opportunity cost is simply something that must be foregone when making a decision. The opportunity cost of becoming a gorge, then, would be the increased time that one must wait in order to become something else. In economics, opportunity cost is the same thing as a cost. So there is a cost to becoming a gorge, regardless of the fact that to regain those 10 resources will only take one minute.
@Rest: I agree that mines are too spammy and a bit too powerful at the moment, but making a short push with a gorge cysting up their base will destroy 30 mines (costing 100 pres) for about 25 pres. The cysts don't even have to be connected to produce infestation.
I strongly disagree with skulks being useless or slow right now. When you get the hang of it, the walljumping is very powerful and can make you more than 2 times as fast as normal running speed. I am not a good player at all and have low fps, but I still get kills as a skulk against somewhat experienced players by using the walljumping to my advantage.
When you separate lifeform and weapon costs from structure costs, you remove the barrier that stopped the entire team from spamming high lifeforms or weapons.
Assuming they would only buy one set. There are people playing the current build which are spending all their res on mines.... So i second that Mines back to the Commander, maybe even make them "rare" and not trigger by infestation or something like that.
Yes, this would be still be a player placed mine but just handed out by the commander, not the armory. Also a "per map" limit of total mines.
I remember in NS1 the gorge had some sort of a mine as well, it would remove all armor of the marine that stepped near it.
If babblers are brought back this needs to be Gorge deployed, like in NS1.
Both of these added to the gorge would help make him more playable and give him some better offense
But that's exactly why I think that the roles and the costs have been devalued. Lifeform/Weapon power increases significantly from 'tier' to 'tier' (only because that's how it was in NS1). It would be foolish to NOT upgrade to a higher lifeform / more advanced weapon, because you know the other team is doing so. It's imperative if you want to survive. It's become less of a choice of what lifeform/weapon to choose, but when to choose a higher lifeform/weapon. And what happens when one team gains a single 'tier' advantage? Because of the significant power differential, that team steamrolls the other. Resources shouldn't be the be all and end all of the RTS metagame and certainly not for the FPS game. I guess my point is, they should decrease the power differential between 'tiers' (so that the difference between a tier N unit and a tier 0 unit is not too significant), and if they need to tighten up the costs, then so be it.