The flamethrower should be cheaper than higher tier aliens, but nullify the advantage that higher tier aliens have over lower tier marines. Energy was a decent first attempt, but I don't think it's working out very well, since it just gimps the aliens' ability to do anything. Perhaps the flamethrower could do damage proportional to a target's current health (e.g. 1 + (10% of current HP) per second): it would be excellent against structures and the fade/onos, but would be a vastly inferior option against skulks (and the fade/onos when they get to low health). (assuming no armour; armour will actually make the drop less exaggerated) <img src="http://i.imgur.com/1GFf4.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /> Honestly, the damage output looks much too low here, but I've just put it there for illustration, really.
Similarly, the lerk and gorge should be cheaper than higher tier marine equipment, but nullify the advantage that higher tier marine equipment have over lower tier aliens. Umbra comes to mind, but I think something that strips armour would also be good, to counter all that extra effective HP that marines get.
Basically, between a lower tier (lower cost, lower power) unit and a higher tier (higher cost, higher power) unit, you have a middle tier (middling cost, middling power) unit that nullifies the advantage that the higher tier unit has over the lower tier unit. Apply the same theme throughout the game, and you should have something reasonably balanced and fun. No hard counters, no more saving up for a steamroll, only soft counters that level the playing field.
Not sure I feel comfortable with that idea, Harimau. It seems like it would make the FT stupid-overpowered against Fades and Onos (Oni? I like that. Oni), and it seems like there's nothing those classes can do to escape it. With exponential decay, once you've taken about a second or two of FT damage, you've taken anywhere between 20-40% of all the damage it's going to do to you for its entire magazine. You can still run away if nobody else is shooting at you (or murder the FT, since he's defenseless), but you've already taken massive damage from that tiny interval of combat, and he didn't even have to aim at you.
Large, unavoidable damage spikes that come easily to your opponents lead to feelings of helplessness among pubbers, and feelings of helplessness lead to frustration and decreased enjoyment.
Sure, but on the other hand, a pair of marines with rifles or shotguns against two fades or two oni* (and you can be sure that in NS2, this matchup is going to occur far more frequently than it would have in NS, on account of the personal resource system) are going to have an unbelievably and undeservedly difficult time, because of the tiny damage output relative to target health.
* I like this too, it happens to be japanese for "demon" or "ogre".
Can a marine with a rifle even kill a fade with a single magazine? Theoretically, maybe; practically, likely not. The days of an onos taking on a whole group of marines must end, because, thanks to the personal resource system, the potential for a whole team of oni at late game is very high. If the playing field is not level from the start, then there must be options available that <b>will</b> level the playing field. It simply isn't fun when you come up against another player whose advantage is <b>insurmountable</b>, especially when his only requirement for gaining that advantage was to "save up". And <b>especially</b> when "saving up" was actually the only reasonable "choice", the <b>default "action"</b>, for that player to take.
However, I think your main complaint isn't so much with the damage I propose, but the <b>ease</b>. I agree that the flamethrower needs to become more difficult and skilful to use. This spotlight-death-ray nonsense needs to end.
<!--quoteo(post=1895243:date=Jan 17 2012, 02:56 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Jan 17 2012, 02:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895243"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But no one really gets the whole 'cripple' role.
Yes, it reduces power and deters aliens - but it is not satisfying to use. I just feel really lost when using it.
You get it late game, at that point aliens have Fades, and any good Fade ALWAYS goes for the flamer guy - and always wins.
You can't fight a Fade with flamer, so it becomes pointless.
I get the whole 'teamplay role' and can see Clans using it very effectively when co-ordinating hive attacks, but I think most want it to be more than the 'numbers game' that the pros play.
If it is about crippling please double the range, narrow the stream and let areas on the floor burn for a lot longer. I wouldn't even mind a damage drop if that was the case.
This would allow it to be a whole lot more tactical.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since when is the "crippling" mechanic not clear, and since when are you just planning to rambo by yourself and expect to kill a Fade with a flamethrower, or with any other weapon for that matter? And teamplay doesn't only happen in Clan matches mate. It's already pretty effective at crippling when used properly, and yes there are ways to improve it- I'm not disputing that.
<!--quoteo(post=1895273:date=Jan 18 2012, 12:57 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jan 18 2012, 12:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895273"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Way to keep playing the same old role, konata. UWE meant that they intend the flamethrower to hamper enemies in ways other than simply killing them, and I find it difficult to believe you've got the intelligence to come up with all these cynical things to say, yet still don't know what it means to cripple something/someone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
his reply was what I was going to say as well. "to cripple" means so little, actually nothing without describing what you actually mean.
charlie refuses to listen to his community, and listens only to those who shares his vision of the game. So if you idea falls outside the vision charlie has, its really not good idea. But then he would say (most recently) we don't like change. Change is amazing, but it needs to make sense within the game. many vets simply against broken ideas (change) because they do not work.
this weapon doesn't add much into gameplay actually.
make it burn away lerk gas ? make it blind alien flashlight vision? disable ground structures from performing their abilities for a short time (i.e. crag heal, shade cloak, shift whatever)? there's a ton of stuff that can be done without altering damage or energy drain considerations.
<!--quoteo(post=1895349:date=Jan 17 2012, 08:31 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 17 2012, 08:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895349"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure, but on the other hand, a pair of marines with rifles or shotguns against two fades or two oni* (and you can be sure that in NS2, this matchup is going to occur far more frequently than it would have in NS, on account of the personal resource system) are going to have an unbelievably and undeservedly difficult time, because of the tiny damage output relative to target health. Can a marine with a rifle even kill a fade with a single magazine? Theoretically, maybe; practically, definitely not. The days of an onos taking on a whole group of marines must end, because, thanks to the personal resource system, the potential for a whole team of oni at late game is very high. If the playing field is not level from the start, then there must be options available that will level the playing field. It simply isn't fun when you come up against another player whose advantage is insurmountable, but whose only requirement for gaining that advantage was to "save up".
* I like this too, it happens to be japanese for "demon" or "ogre".
However, I think your main complaint isn't so much with the damage I propose, but the <b>ease</b>. I agree that the flamethrower needs to become more difficult and skilful to use. This spotlight-death-ray nonsense needs to end.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If we keep the current aiming mechanism in, I'd like to see my increasing damage with time go through so that staying alive becomes the skill you need (and your opponents' actions become his skill to try and counter yours). The main reason for this is that I'm hoping UWE will balance games so that having 1/2 of the team be Onos just isn't economically feasible. If we do wind up seeing higher lifeforms becoming common as part of the planned release, I think your idea, plus a skill-based change in the aiming mechanism would definitely trump mine (since nobody wants to sit lighting an Onos on fire for 5 seconds to he can start scaling up his damage. Well, actually... we'll get into that later)
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->*yussss. Oni shall slowly infect the fanbase until it becomes fact!<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--quoteo(post=1895354:date=Jan 17 2012, 08:41 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Jan 17 2012, 08:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895354"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->his reply was what I was going to say as well. "to cripple" means so little, actually nothing without describing what you actually mean.
charlie refuses to listen to his community, and listens only to those who shares his vision of the game. So if you idea falls outside the vision charlie has, its really not good idea. But then he would say (most recently) we don't like change. Change is amazing, but it needs to make sense within the game. many vets simply against broken ideas (change) because they do not work.
this weapon doesn't add much into gameplay actually.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well someone's certainly been practicing their telepathy, since they seem to have such an amazing idea of what goes on in Charlie's head.
I got what he meant by "cripple" in a snap. What can a "crippling" effect on a weapon do, except impair its target through means beyond killing it? What else does it mean to be crippled?
To me crippling immediately says, "we want it to be overpowering". I mean a cripple is a slang word for a disabled or wheelchair bound person who needs someone to look after them, so by that definition, crippling means overpowering to the point the other person can barely fight back.
That's a dumb idea. So again, you're lacking the ability to understand others to the subjective use of an adjective to describe a broad activity. And your telepathy is amazing too if you immediately got what crippling is when it hasn't been explained what definition and contextual state it is designed to be in relation to the flamethrower.
As you don't have the ability to understand or the capacity to focus on the fact that others have a different view of the same word, I'm done with that conversation as only you will see yourself as the correct person in this situation even though you're completely unforgiving to the fact that any opinion could be correct in this situation.
With that, I'm with luns once again. When it comes to game play, let more of the critical minded players have a larger share of your decision. You'll find those who aren't 100% happy with anything to be the best use of your testing and game play ideas. We like trade off's, we do not like complete in-balance.
EDIT: Don't forget to factor in the minigun which will be an "exoskeleten" (Which we will all just call heavy anyway) weapon.
Edit 2: I need to add too, I find it strange that the flamethrower sets fire to a tiny piece of wall or floor infront of me which hurts me. It's counter-intuitive.
<!--quoteo(post=1895356:date=Jan 18 2012, 10:42 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jan 18 2012, 10:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If we keep the current aiming mechanism in, I'd like to see my increasing damage with time go through so that staying alive becomes the skill you need (and your opponents' actions become his skill to try and counter yours). The main reason for this is that I'm hoping UWE will balance games so that having 1/2 of the team be Onos just isn't economically feasible. If we do wind up seeing higher lifeforms becoming common as part of the planned release, I think your idea, plus a skill-based change in the aiming mechanism would definitely trump mine (since nobody wants to sit lighting an Onos on fire for 5 seconds to he can start scaling up his damage. Well, actually... we'll get into that later)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It will always be economically feasible, provided they keep the current resource system. Personal resources are gained: - <b>not</b> by splitting income from the towers amongst the players <i>(which would balance the game on an RTS level; but would lead to other difficulties with regards to game size scaling, item accessibility (fun!) and reaching the price floor)</i>, but - by giving each independent player an independent tower income from other players <i>(which allows the game to scale easily, makes all items accessible to all players (fun!), and sidesteps the issue of reaching the price floor; but naturally leads to "FADES FOR EVERYONE!!!!!!" [insert Oprah meme image])</i>.
Btw, this is what I mean by "reaching the price floor": Let's say that <b>something</b> costs 50 resources. You have 3 players with 40 resources each. If their resources were pooled (for a total of 120 resources), their team could ordinarily get at least TWO <b>somethings</b>, but because individually they can't reach the "floor" (the minimum) of the price (40 < 50), their team can't even get ONE <b>something</b>. Clearly, with a bigger team, that difficulty is more pronounced (which is partly why in NS, marines with their pooled resources had an increasing advantage over aliens in games increasingly larger than 6v6), and with smaller teams that difficulty is circumvented (e.g. early fades).
There is another solution, and that is to have resources be pooled and everyone purchase from them, as well as have the resource income scale to keep the ratio of 'number of expensive units' to team size relatively constant. Unfortunately, this leads to a "first come, first serve" situation (you may even obstruct the commander - unless of course the commander is the one that gives everything away). It may also lead to such "issues" like an early fade, especially with bigger teams (more total resource income); however: 1) this may be justification for why the fade can't be unlocked so easily, or justification for the fade having less advantage over low tier marines 2) in NS, an early fade was a menace, but in NS2 currently, we no longer get any early single-fades, we just get late LOTS-OF-FADES.
Anyway, irrespective of any damage or resource model considerations, the flamethrower is too simple and boring to use. It's very easy. It's not very useful. You might consider the opposing combination of these two to mean this is balanced. I just consider it boring. Whatever we end up doing to the flamethrower, the first thing that needs to be done is removing the spotlight-death-ray. Why not just do flamethrowers like other games have done it? I've never understood this.
<!--quoteo(post=1895356:date=Jan 18 2012, 10:42 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jan 18 2012, 10:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->*yussss. Oni shall slowly infect the fanbase until it becomes fact!<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oni is in. I shall support you in this.
I don't know how others feel about it, although the ability to cheaply upgrade your resource tower to boost personal resources could be an option that immediately jumps out at me in order to get personal resources kick starting games. This should then be linked to the amount of tech/hvies you have for how many nodes can be upgraded. Possibly 1 per each hive.
I'm personally against purchasing weapons in such a way, although the way it is now, it does make the game so slow, it needs something to speed it up.
<!--quoteo(post=1895361:date=Jan 17 2012, 09:07 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Jan 17 2012, 09:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895361"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To me crippling immediately says, "we want it to be overpowering". I mean a cripple is a slang word for a disabled or wheelchair bound person who needs someone to look after them, so by that definition, crippling means overpowering to the point the other person can barely fight back.
That's a dumb idea. So again, you're lacking the ability to understand others to the subjective use of an adjective to describe a broad activity. And your telepathy is amazing too if you immediately got what crippling is when it hasn't been explained what definition and contextual state it is designed to be in relation to the flamethrower.
As you don't have the ability to understand or the capacity to focus on the fact that others have a different view of the same word, I'm done with that conversation as only you will see yourself as the correct person in this situation even though you're completely unforgiving to the fact that any opinion could be correct in this situation.
With that, I'm with luns once again. When it comes to game play, let more of the critical minded players have a larger share of your decision. You'll find those who aren't 100% happy with anything to be the best use of your testing and game play ideas. We like trade off's, we do not like complete in-balance.
EDIT: Don't forget to factor in the minigun which will be an "exoskeleten" (Which we will all just call heavy anyway) weapon.
Edit 2: I need to add too, I find it strange that the flamethrower sets fire to a tiny piece of wall or floor infront of me which hurts me. It's counter-intuitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well since you're apparently done discussing this with me, the only thing I have left to point out to myself and the empty room is that cripped people are less able to fight than normal people, but they're not dead/constantly on the verge of death. A crippling weapon is a weapon that makes it harder for your opponent to fight you by weakening him.
tbh, I don't care in the slightest whether everyone is happy with my ideas, harimau's ideas, chris's ideas, your ideas, or UWE's ideas. All I care about is providing as many ideas and suggestions, doing everything in my power to contribute to a development of a game that will be fun for a lot of people and consistent with UWE's vision of the NS2 franchise, as I think we all do.
<!--quoteo(post=1895364:date=Jan 17 2012, 09:18 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 17 2012, 09:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895364"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It will always be economically feasible, provided they keep the current resource system.
**well-constructive and informative information on resources and mechanics**<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm personally hoping they overhaul it. If they don't, though, we'll need a weapon like your flamer to give the underdogs any sort of a chance against the gorilla horde.
Well, I've also discussed various options for the resource model, and they all have advantages and disadvantages. But the system currently in the game actually has the least disadvantages (or solves the most problems), which is, I like to believe, the reason it was chosen. The only problem, however, is that even though the resource system is completely different to NS1, they're still trying to balance the game on NS1 numbers and philosophies.
Weird thing, i was playing last days and i saw a DI on the ground, without a cyst, bug? I burn it with flamethrower and it was gone...so it still works against DI, i just want to say that. But my opinion is still, that the flamethrower isn't a DI killer anymore because of cysts, but its very good against aliens.
The flamethrower is great for taking out fades, provided you are with some teammates. However, for being so high in the tech tree and cost so many resources, it should definitely have some more abilities right now. I think flamethrowers should be the hard counter to lerk spores. Shoot some fire, burn the gas away. I also think it should 'overwhelm' the aliens heat vision ability/deny healspray. When the flamethrower is firing, the aliens would just see a yellow blob in front of the marine obscuring its vision. With the grenade launchers, marines sit back nuke everything from a room away. With the tweaks above (or some variant) you can give marines a real ability to "push" into area, that they currently lack. It will give the flamethrower a clear role which it does not have at the moment.
I do wish they had put that sort of infestation into the beta, it was something I was looking forward to. As for the flamer as a weapon, I think it is quite useful in it's place. It's not a solo or dps weapon, but is very effective against skulks and actually allows marines to have a chance of killing fades. Even if the fade snipes the flamer guy odds are he will get set on fire while doing so, and a fade on fire who had just wasted energy on killing someone can often be chased down by marines (they spring pretty damn fast and have guns, so they dont even need to be near him just need los).
I still wish it was more effective against infestation, since I thought that was a very cool dynamic that they had originally planned.
P.S. I think the flamer might make cystless infestation dies much faster then it normally does.
P.P.S. I liked the limited access to weapons and classes in NS1, it really made me treasure the times I did get to play a fade or wield an hmg and heavy armour. In NS2 I get everything, and thus nothing really feels special, luckily the core game is still fun but I miss the event of getting better weps and lifeforms in NS1.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1895354:date=Jan 17 2012, 06:41 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Jan 17 2012, 06:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895354"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->charlie refuses to listen to his community, and listens only to those who shares his vision of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><i>i swear im not feeding them.. sigh.. but here goes:</i><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
you and konata swear you guys represent the community. but i dont see the majority of paying customers jumping into the luns and konata pool of screaming discontent. in fact the majority of the "critical" gamers (harimau etc) dont constantly express their displeasure nor are they insulting - they generally are very constructive. the rest of us are playing and enjoying watching the progress.
i honestly dont even know why you bother posting so much for a game you supposedly have problems with at such core levels. if it isn't the NS you want and it upsets you this much and you haven't gotten what you want by now... <u>why are you posting still???</u> just to let everyone know you're unhappy constantly or that you didnt get what you wanted?
personally i love the creativity with this dev team and the directions they took it. are things perfect? no. but A) what is B) its not done you guys seriously need to take a hard look at your efforts in these forums - both regarding the time spent as well as level of interest: is it really worth it to you to be a part of something thats so aggravating and upsetting to you, especially when you know you cant change it? there's plenty of other games and forums guys. goodluck either way.
<i><b>on topic:</b></i> i agree i miss the feature of the flamethrower being that is was responsible for pushing back the progress. i understand the need for cysts though for the early game, and i believe that the suggestions here from people such as Tremann are spot on : give purpose back to the FT. structural advantages etc.
You could always have it disable the effects of whatever building is on fire (the spores burn up coming out of the crag, the hydra is thrashing around and so not firing).
Or have it disable whatever ability we put on Alt-Fire. Gorges and Lerks can't spray out their clouds, because they burn up on the air. Fades... well, maybe they stay visible while blinking, that movement is kind of essential to them. Flaming skulks can't leap, since they're ON FIRE. That's a pretty solid "cripple" right there.
Comments
Energy was a decent first attempt, but I don't think it's working out very well, since it just gimps the aliens' ability to do anything. Perhaps the flamethrower could do damage proportional to a target's current health (e.g. 1 + (10% of current HP) per second): it would be excellent against structures and the fade/onos, but would be a vastly inferior option against skulks (and the fade/onos when they get to low health).
(assuming no armour; armour will actually make the drop less exaggerated)
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/1GFf4.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Honestly, the damage output looks much too low here, but I've just put it there for illustration, really.
Similarly, the lerk and gorge should be cheaper than higher tier marine equipment, but nullify the advantage that higher tier marine equipment have over lower tier aliens.
Umbra comes to mind, but I think something that strips armour would also be good, to counter all that extra effective HP that marines get.
Basically, between a lower tier (lower cost, lower power) unit and a higher tier (higher cost, higher power) unit, you have a middle tier (middling cost, middling power) unit that nullifies the advantage that the higher tier unit has over the lower tier unit.
Apply the same theme throughout the game, and you should have something reasonably balanced and fun. No hard counters, no more saving up for a steamroll, only soft counters that level the playing field.
Large, unavoidable damage spikes that come easily to your opponents lead to feelings of helplessness among pubbers, and feelings of helplessness lead to frustration and decreased enjoyment.
* I like this too, it happens to be japanese for "demon" or "ogre".
Can a marine with a rifle even kill a fade with a single magazine? Theoretically, maybe; practically, likely not.
The days of an onos taking on a whole group of marines must end, because, thanks to the personal resource system, the potential for a whole team of oni at late game is very high.
If the playing field is not level from the start, then there must be options available that <b>will</b> level the playing field.
It simply isn't fun when you come up against another player whose advantage is <b>insurmountable</b>, especially when his only requirement for gaining that advantage was to "save up". And <b>especially</b> when "saving up" was actually the only reasonable "choice", the <b>default "action"</b>, for that player to take.
However, I think your main complaint isn't so much with the damage I propose, but the <b>ease</b>. I agree that the flamethrower needs to become more difficult and skilful to use. This spotlight-death-ray nonsense needs to end.
Yes, it reduces power and deters aliens - but it is not satisfying to use. I just feel really lost when using it.
You get it late game, at that point aliens have Fades, and any good Fade ALWAYS goes for the flamer guy - and always wins.
You can't fight a Fade with flamer, so it becomes pointless.
I get the whole 'teamplay role' and can see Clans using it very effectively when co-ordinating hive attacks, but I think most want it to be more than the 'numbers game' that the pros play.
If it is about crippling please double the range, narrow the stream and let areas on the floor burn for a lot longer. I wouldn't even mind a damage drop if that was the case.
This would allow it to be a whole lot more tactical.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since when is the "crippling" mechanic not clear, and since when are you just planning to rambo by yourself and expect to kill a Fade with a flamethrower, or with any other weapon for that matter? And teamplay doesn't only happen in Clan matches mate. It's already pretty effective at crippling when used properly, and yes there are ways to improve it- I'm not disputing that.
his reply was what I was going to say as well. "to cripple" means so little, actually nothing without describing what you actually mean.
charlie refuses to listen to his community, and listens only to those who shares his vision of the game. So if you idea falls outside the vision charlie has, its really not good idea. But then he would say (most recently) we don't like change. Change is amazing, but it needs to make sense within the game. many vets simply against broken ideas (change) because they do not work.
this weapon doesn't add much into gameplay actually.
* I like this too, it happens to be japanese for "demon" or "ogre".
However, I think your main complaint isn't so much with the damage I propose, but the <b>ease</b>. I agree that the flamethrower needs to become more difficult and skilful to use. This spotlight-death-ray nonsense needs to end.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If we keep the current aiming mechanism in, I'd like to see my increasing damage with time go through so that staying alive becomes the skill you need (and your opponents' actions become his skill to try and counter yours). The main reason for this is that I'm hoping UWE will balance games so that having 1/2 of the team be Onos just isn't economically feasible. If we do wind up seeing higher lifeforms becoming common as part of the planned release, I think your idea, plus a skill-based change in the aiming mechanism would definitely trump mine (since nobody wants to sit lighting an Onos on fire for 5 seconds to he can start scaling up his damage. Well, actually... we'll get into that later)
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->*yussss. Oni shall slowly infect the fanbase until it becomes fact!<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
charlie refuses to listen to his community, and listens only to those who shares his vision of the game. So if you idea falls outside the vision charlie has, its really not good idea. But then he would say (most recently) we don't like change. Change is amazing, but it needs to make sense within the game. many vets simply against broken ideas (change) because they do not work.
this weapon doesn't add much into gameplay actually.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well someone's certainly been practicing their telepathy, since they seem to have such an amazing idea of what goes on in Charlie's head.
I got what he meant by "cripple" in a snap. What can a "crippling" effect on a weapon do, except impair its target through means beyond killing it? What else does it mean to be crippled?
That's a dumb idea. So again, you're lacking the ability to understand others to the subjective use of an adjective to describe a broad activity. And your telepathy is amazing too if you immediately got what crippling is when it hasn't been explained what definition and contextual state it is designed to be in relation to the flamethrower.
As you don't have the ability to understand or the capacity to focus on the fact that others have a different view of the same word, I'm done with that conversation as only you will see yourself as the correct person in this situation even though you're completely unforgiving to the fact that any opinion could be correct in this situation.
With that, I'm with luns once again. When it comes to game play, let more of the critical minded players have a larger share of your decision. You'll find those who aren't 100% happy with anything to be the best use of your testing and game play ideas. We like trade off's, we do not like complete in-balance.
EDIT: Don't forget to factor in the minigun which will be an "exoskeleten" (Which we will all just call heavy anyway) weapon.
Edit 2: I need to add too, I find it strange that the flamethrower sets fire to a tiny piece of wall or floor infront of me which hurts me. It's counter-intuitive.
It will always be economically feasible, provided they keep the current resource system.
Personal resources are gained:
- <b>not</b> by splitting income from the towers amongst the players <i>(which would balance the game on an RTS level; but would lead to other difficulties with regards to game size scaling, item accessibility (fun!) and reaching the price floor)</i>, but
- by giving each independent player an independent tower income from other players <i>(which allows the game to scale easily, makes all items accessible to all players (fun!), and sidesteps the issue of reaching the price floor; but naturally leads to "FADES FOR EVERYONE!!!!!!" [insert Oprah meme image])</i>.
Btw, this is what I mean by "reaching the price floor": Let's say that <b>something</b> costs 50 resources. You have 3 players with 40 resources each. If their resources were pooled (for a total of 120 resources), their team could ordinarily get at least TWO <b>somethings</b>, but because individually they can't reach the "floor" (the minimum) of the price (40 < 50), their team can't even get ONE <b>something</b>. Clearly, with a bigger team, that difficulty is more pronounced (which is partly why in NS, marines with their pooled resources had an increasing advantage over aliens in games increasingly larger than 6v6), and with smaller teams that difficulty is circumvented (e.g. early fades).
There is another solution, and that is to have resources be pooled and everyone purchase from them, as well as have the resource income scale to keep the ratio of 'number of expensive units' to team size relatively constant. Unfortunately, this leads to a "first come, first serve" situation (you may even obstruct the commander - unless of course the commander is the one that gives everything away). It may also lead to such "issues" like an early fade, especially with bigger teams (more total resource income); however:
1) this may be justification for why the fade can't be unlocked so easily, or justification for the fade having less advantage over low tier marines
2) in NS, an early fade was a menace, but in NS2 currently, we no longer get any early single-fades, we just get late LOTS-OF-FADES.
Anyway, irrespective of any damage or resource model considerations, the flamethrower is too simple and boring to use.
It's very easy. It's not very useful.
You might consider the opposing combination of these two to mean this is balanced. I just consider it boring.
Whatever we end up doing to the flamethrower, the first thing that needs to be done is removing the spotlight-death-ray. Why not just do flamethrowers like other games have done it? I've never understood this.
<!--quoteo(post=1895356:date=Jan 18 2012, 10:42 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jan 18 2012, 10:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->*yussss. Oni shall slowly infect the fanbase until it becomes fact!<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oni is in. I shall support you in this.
I'm personally against purchasing weapons in such a way, although the way it is now, it does make the game so slow, it needs something to speed it up.
That's a dumb idea. So again, you're lacking the ability to understand others to the subjective use of an adjective to describe a broad activity. And your telepathy is amazing too if you immediately got what crippling is when it hasn't been explained what definition and contextual state it is designed to be in relation to the flamethrower.
As you don't have the ability to understand or the capacity to focus on the fact that others have a different view of the same word, I'm done with that conversation as only you will see yourself as the correct person in this situation even though you're completely unforgiving to the fact that any opinion could be correct in this situation.
With that, I'm with luns once again. When it comes to game play, let more of the critical minded players have a larger share of your decision. You'll find those who aren't 100% happy with anything to be the best use of your testing and game play ideas. We like trade off's, we do not like complete in-balance.
EDIT: Don't forget to factor in the minigun which will be an "exoskeleten" (Which we will all just call heavy anyway) weapon.
Edit 2: I need to add too, I find it strange that the flamethrower sets fire to a tiny piece of wall or floor infront of me which hurts me. It's counter-intuitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well since you're apparently done discussing this with me, the only thing I have left to point out to myself and the empty room is that cripped people are less able to fight than normal people, but they're not dead/constantly on the verge of death. A crippling weapon is a weapon that makes it harder for your opponent to fight you by weakening him.
tbh, I don't care in the slightest whether everyone is happy with my ideas, harimau's ideas, chris's ideas, your ideas, or UWE's ideas. All I care about is providing as many ideas and suggestions, doing everything in my power to contribute to a development of a game that will be fun for a lot of people and consistent with UWE's vision of the NS2 franchise, as I think we all do.
**well-constructive and informative information on resources and mechanics**<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm personally hoping they overhaul it. If they don't, though, we'll need a weapon like your flamer to give the underdogs any sort of a chance against the gorilla horde.
I burn it with flamethrower and it was gone...so it still works against DI, i just want to say that.
But my opinion is still, that the flamethrower isn't a DI killer anymore because of cysts, but its very good against aliens.
I still wish it was more effective against infestation, since I thought that was a very cool dynamic that they had originally planned.
P.S. I think the flamer might make cystless infestation dies much faster then it normally does.
P.P.S. I liked the limited access to weapons and classes in NS1, it really made me treasure the times I did get to play a fade or wield an hmg and heavy armour. In NS2 I get everything, and thus nothing really feels special, luckily the core game is still fun but I miss the event of getting better weps and lifeforms in NS1.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><i>i swear im not feeding them.. sigh.. but here goes:</i><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
you and konata swear you guys represent the community. but i dont see the majority of paying customers jumping into the luns and konata pool of screaming discontent. in fact the majority of the "critical" gamers (harimau etc) dont constantly express their displeasure nor are they insulting - they generally are very constructive. the rest of us are playing and enjoying watching the progress.
i honestly dont even know why you bother posting so much for a game you supposedly have problems with at such core levels. if it isn't the NS you want and it upsets you this much and you haven't gotten what you want by now... <u>why are you posting still???</u> just to let everyone know you're unhappy constantly or that you didnt get what you wanted?
personally i love the creativity with this dev team and the directions they took it. are things perfect? no. but A) what is B) its not done
you guys seriously need to take a hard look at your efforts in these forums - both regarding the time spent as well as level of interest: is it really worth it to you to be a part of something thats so aggravating and upsetting to you, especially when you know you cant change it? there's plenty of other games and forums guys. goodluck either way.
<i><b>on topic:</b></i> i agree i miss the feature of the flamethrower being that is was responsible for pushing back the progress. i understand the need for cysts though for the early game, and i believe that the suggestions here from people such as Tremann are spot on : give purpose back to the FT. structural advantages etc.
now it takes me longer to regen my energy for my next attack :|, and i can't stay in combat for as long anymore either
Or have it disable whatever ability we put on Alt-Fire. Gorges and Lerks can't spray out their clouds, because they burn up on the air. Fades... well, maybe they stay visible while blinking, that movement is kind of essential to them. Flaming skulks can't leap, since they're ON FIRE. That's a pretty solid "cripple" right there.