Personally, I think the alien commander should be intrinsically attached to the infestation. As things are now, the hive/alien comm is just a retextured command station.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->I think there should be a sixth alien type -- the infestation.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> You <i>are</i> the infestation, rather than just some alien camping out fetus like inside the womb of a hive.
There's been a lot of talk about making the infestation feel more alive, and I think this is best achieved by making the alien commander, in essence, <i>be the infestation</i>. Controlling the release of pheromones, exploding cysts, or releasing obscuring fog/insects, etc. Less of an emphasis on building, and more on spreading, like a virulent plague. Also, more on setting <i>traps</i>, which I think would be very cool. You are manipulating the environment to find novel ways of leading your foes to their doom. That sounds very fun to play, and fits the guerrilla style warfare the aliens so excel at.
<!--quoteo(post=1895358:date=Jan 17 2012, 08:53 PM:name=Egad!)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Egad! @ Jan 17 2012, 08:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895358"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I think the alien commander should be intrinsically attached to the infestation. As things are now, the hive/alien comm is just a retextured command station.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->I think there should be a sixth alien type -- the infestation.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> You <i>are</i> the infestation, rather than just some alien camping out fetus like inside the womb of a hive.
There's been a lot of talk about making the infestation feel more alive, and I think this is best achieved by making the alien commander, in essence, <i>be the infestation</i>. Controlling the release of pheromones, exploding cysts, or releasing obscuring fog/insects, etc. Less of an emphasis on building, and more on spreading, like a virulent plague. Also, more on setting <i>traps</i>, which I think would be very cool. You are manipulating the environment to find novel ways of leading your foes to their doom. That sounds very fun to play, and fits the guerrilla style warfare the aliens so excel at.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think a Zombie Master style kham roll could be really rewarding and unique for NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1895359:date=Jan 17 2012, 09:59 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jan 17 2012, 09:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895359"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think a Zombie Master style kham roll could be really rewarding and unique for NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah kinda of. I just think the alien com doesn't feel, well, alien enough. It should be <i>completely</i> different than the marine com. So I think whereas the marine com mostly buffs and aid his teammates, the alien com should focus on subtly and cleverly hurting his enemies, manipulating the environment to the disadvantage of the marines.
I see the alien com as being kind of like a hacker and a saboteur. If that makes any sense.
<!--quoteo(post=1895362:date=Jan 17 2012, 09:08 PM:name=Egad!)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Egad! @ Jan 17 2012, 09:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895362"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah kinda of. I just think the alien com doesn't feel, well, alien enough. It should be <i>completely</i> different than the marine com. So I think whereas the marine com mostly buffs and aid his teammates, the alien com should focus on subtly and cleverly hurting his enemies, manipulating the environment to the disadvantage of the marines.
I see the alien com as being kind of like a hacker and a saboteur. If that makes any sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ja.
And to people who don't know what I mean by Zombie Master, it's <a href="http://www.zombiemaster.org/" target="_blank">a popular HL2 mod</a> that pits a single intelligent player against a team of (supposedly) coordinated survivors via control over environmental traps and the ability to influence/direct (but not micro) the zombie horde. It's a really alien feeling, and you get a nice twisted pleasure from springing your traps on them and watching them try to adapt, suffer through it, or just freak out. Then next round you wind up a survivor again and get just as much fun trying to stick it to the new master and/or freaking out as your team falls apart.
It might seem like a digression, but I think that sort of *detached overseer* has a lot to contribute to our *cosmic gardener*'s playstyle. The ZM team already spent years trying to figure out ways to make a passive environmental role entertaining to play even when there wasn't direct action to be taken; I think looking at a few of the lessons they learned might be worth a shot.
Giving orders is a must for a commander on either team. If you don't like the idea of a direct system, you can always apply the traffic light model to cysts.
So red is, follow to area. Yellow cysts are neutral. Green cysts are building.. Think how a banana ripens for the idea behind this visual effect.
The commander should be able to turn a cysts red, to help them direct an alien to an area that needs help. The idea is that this is a direct opposite to the way pointing system. Its more creative, restricted to infestation and gives the alien commander a purpose and way to communicate troops to troubled areas. The tradeoff here is marines can also see these, so your aliens will protect them to keep that communication link because they need it and so they can effectively stop marines that are along their red route.
Very rough idea that may need working on. Communication needs something new on alien commander.
The problem I see with the pheromones, though I like the concept, is that we're getting back into just throwing numbers around. Which is, as Charlie pointed out in one of his design posts, very boring.
One of my favorite lurk abilities is the spores. Not because of the damage, but because it obscures vision. Having a lurk dive bomb your team, loosing your ability to see, but knowing all of those scurrying skulks can still see you, is more than a little nerve-wracking. I think the pheromones should work more like that. They don't boost or reduce stats, they just -- again -- change the environment to suit the aliens.
Macs have mines, something brilliant from NS1 was the spore mine plugin. Why not allow drifters to be upgraded in to mines the commander can place which let off spore?
<!--quoteo(post=1895377:date=Jan 17 2012, 10:45 PM:name=Egad!)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Egad! @ Jan 17 2012, 10:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895377"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem I see with the pheromones, though I like the concept, is that we're getting back into just throwing numbers around. Which is, as Charlie pointed out in one of his design posts, very boring.
One of my favorite lurk abilities is the spores. Not because of the damage, but because it obscures vision. Having a lurk dive bomb your team, loosing your ability to see, but knowing all of those scurrying skulks can still see you, is more than a little nerve-wracking. I think the pheromones should work more like that. They don't boost or reduce stats, they just -- again -- change the environment to suit the aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a neat concept and I would actually like that....but I still want these pheremones to direct the aliens.
Aliens have horrible coordination, even when fade was super-duper-fade, the end game would take forever because not everyone would show at marine spawn. 2 fades of a team of 8 would slowly hack every structure there...silly.
<!--quoteo(post=1895383:date=Jan 17 2012, 10:58 PM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ Jan 17 2012, 10:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895383"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That is a neat concept and I would actually like that....but I still want these pheremones to direct the aliens.
Aliens have horrible coordination, even when fade was super-duper-fade, the end game would take forever because not everyone would show at marine spawn. 2 fades of a team of 8 would slowly hack every structure there...silly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah sure. I"m all for the pheromones as waypoints. I was speaking out against adding very powerful buffs -- then people might use them randomly, just to help out some guy way out in the boondocks, rather than use them to direct all the aliens on one location. I could just see the whole alien team run off to nowhere, while marines ravage their hive.
I don't know why you guys want these added advantages 'just for giving orders'. If you give "orders" an added advantage, it unbalances the game. If you give "orders" a cost or cooldown along with the advantage to balance it, it simply makes giving "orders" conditional and not always-available like it should be. By all means, have "orders", and have "abilities", but don't <i>combine</i> the two.
I fully support Charlie's plan for "order/waypoint"-style pheromones.
As people have mentioned before, I don't think simply giving orders is all that engaging, though it can be important on a team where players have less awareness of the map (which is not the alien team.)
Another suggestion someone made I think is far more compelling, that the alien commander is actually playing the infestation. Personally, I don't care much for cysts, they're obnoxious to baby sit and easy to kill, I can see keeping them, but ultimately, the alien commander should guide the direction of infestation growth, without cysts, with cysts themselves being used to place "instant infestation." The marines would fight back against infestation by powering up areas (which reverses the growth of infestation) or flamethrowers (instant infestation destruction, much like cysts, but with the opposite effect.) Adding in additional abilities such as infestation heights, constriction, or other effects would be great. Imagine being able to command infestation to swell, thus cutting off a hallway to being something you need to crawl through single file, or using it to crush open sealed doors.
The method of encroachment on both sides prevents games from sitting in stalemates because eventually, the infestation will get all the way into the marine base or the marines will power up all the areas preventing infestation from spreading out. Infestation could be a slow counter to sentry guns (blocking LOS or actually spilling over and destroying the guns.) In essence the marine commander functions by having excellent situational awareness on the map, allowing him to allow his team to respond to individual threats in a coordinated fashion, and also assisting them in doing so, while the alien commander would be focused on the insidious spread of infestation to prevent enemies from responding well by closing areas, assisting assaults by overwhelming static defenses, or sneakily invading bases to finish games. Imagine the two following situations made possible by infestation control. 1: The marines have seized data core and are fortifying the position with sentry guns, they've spent too much res to research flame throwers. Seeing weakness the alien comm directs infestation to spread into data core from alien start with the aid of a few cysts. The infestation boils into the lower level, before climbing the wall and rolling over the sentry guns, digesting them, followed by a wave of aliens who force them back. The marine commander starts to save res to research for flamethrowers, if he can't stop the spread of infestation it will inexorably advance into his base.
2: The aliens have been beaten back room after room, with little hope remaining. The final battles are occurring in reactor in crevice as marines battle through the infested corridors. The alien commander, desperate to secure victory, with the aid of a gorge who places a line of cysts in vents, sends infestation into xroads through vents, then sneaks it into marine start where it starts to overwhelm structures. The marines suddenly find their prime base without power, their buildings being damaged by bacterial infestation devouring structures. They must pull back or risk the infestation overwhelming their base while they are occupied.
Ultimately it allows for the alien commander to effectively play a third alien. This also allows gorges to take over most if not all of the structure construction because the alien commander has much more to do with modifying the battlefield.
1st alien vision color code things smell different people smell different so what if instead of everything being yellow bob is orange and Jane is red and that greasy Mac is grey... Reason you jump into a pack of riines and can't tell bob from John even though John hasn't showered in a week and you already bit home twice...
2nd stink cloud... A constant trail of stink that dissipates great for tracking or if a rine is hidding behind something the longer he sits there the larger his stench cloud gets. Counter extra strength Gillette....
Reason cloud would hinder campers trail would be informative you see two trails together and you know there's 2 rines ahead you see a big trail and you know the rines are moving out in force... Also makes tweaking that sneaky ninja fun...
Obviously in a alien vs marine an advantage to one off balances the game so maybe limit this to gorges since those little pigs have those big noses, or change the dissipation rate depending on class fades don't have a very good sence of smell....
Could add some cool environmental interactions ... He hid next to that fan or went out side, damn that draft...
Works for aliens too kinda like hive sight see where your team ran off to.
Pheromones should have an environmental effect. Making the environment ( infestation ) come alive making it more friendly or dangerous, Signaling wether you're friend or foe to structures on the infestation. Structures are quicker to respond to tagged players. Tying it in how helpful a structures is with the structures energy store.
Pheromones should work similar to umbra, A cloud is released, you walk through it to get tagged. Is a timed effect eg: 60 seconds. Released from commander pustules by the commander. (Clever pustuals placement to create traps for marines)
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Marines tagged with pheromones:(foes)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> <u>Hydras:</u> Hit range is extended to pheromone tagged marines. uses structures energy for distance shots till depleted. <u>Crag:</u> Automaticly releases umbra when tagged marines are in line of sight. uses structures energy till depleted. <u>Shade:</u> Automaticly activates all shades connected to the infestation tagged players are walking on. Cloaking buildings and players <u>Infestation:</u> Would start to create a mist a foot above the floor helping to obscure cysts and skulks <u>Hive:</u> The Tenticals of the hive will attack a tagged Marine like a whip. <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> Aliens tagged with pheromones:(friend)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> <u>Hydra: ???</u> <u>Crag:</u> Overcharge a players health or armor like the medic in team fortess 2. Overcharged health or armor immediately starts to drop off once out of area of effect. Uses structures energy to overcharge a player. <u>Shade:</u> ??? Cloaks a player faster ? <u>Infestation:</u> Healing rate is more effective. <u>Hive:</u> ??? Upgrade faster ???
I think those are pretty good suggestions, even if we limit tagging to only enemies. An alien commander making traps and tricks with placement would be fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1895399:date=Jan 18 2012, 04:40 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 18 2012, 04:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895399"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Giving orders doesn't need to be engaging... just useful.
Give the Kham some support abilities, sure.
All I'm saying is, keep them separate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sound advice.
The alien comm could use some support powers, but they shouldn't be tacked onto his only proper tool for directing players.
<!--quoteo(post=1895332:date=Jan 17 2012, 05:45 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jan 17 2012, 05:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895332"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The alien commander is an essential addition required for the proper balance of the game, as a whole, regardless of player on the server. The rest of your post just basically says "There isn't anything for the alien commander to do" which, at this point, is absolutely correct but that's kind of what this thread is about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> All I wanted to point out was having a role set aside for only coordinating the team by dropping pheromones or whatever would be a huge mistake. I started typing it up when nobody else had responded to Flayra yet. At this point in development, I'd settle for just about any outcome other than some powerless Alien Manager telling people what to do.
<!--quoteo(post=1895358:date=Jan 18 2012, 01:53 PM:name=Egad!)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Egad! @ Jan 18 2012, 01:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895358"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I think the alien commander should be intrinsically attached to the infestation. As things are now, the hive/alien comm is just a retextured command station.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->I think there should be a sixth alien type -- the infestation.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> You <i>are</i> the infestation, rather than just some alien camping out fetus like inside the womb of a hive.
There's been a lot of talk about making the infestation feel more alive, and I think this is best achieved by making the alien commander, in essence, <i>be the infestation</i>. Controlling the release of pheromones, exploding cysts, or releasing obscuring fog/insects, etc. Less of an emphasis on building, and more on spreading, like a virulent plague. Also, more on setting <i>traps</i>, which I think would be very cool. You are manipulating the environment to find novel ways of leading your foes to their doom. That sounds very fun to play, and fits the guerrilla style warfare the aliens so excel at.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This zombie master style role is brilliant. It would open up so many many many creative and different ways of playing the same game. Its incredibly player focused, open ended and could result in some really interesting metagame. It makes sense and gives aliens that very distinct character.
Just like I already said, something like this -> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8TbeCjDUxA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8TbeCjDUxA</a> Only with the infestation. That should be really fun and very different from Marine commanding. Being able to draw the infestation, build with it. I imagine it to be very cool.
And combined with Charlie's idea of 'corpse -> infestation boost' - it would be very interesting if the infestation/commander just decides to grab an alien to use him to close a hallway. The alien does not even have to agree... hehe... I also like the idea of the infestation being like a cancer. (Coulb even be part of the story. The Kharra are actually not as aggressive? They are infected themselfs?) (Micro-)Managing the infestation so it won't become a threat for aliens. Sounds nice.
Possibly the infestation could have different areas-of-effect, indicated by color? (Intensity of green.) One area makes aliens faster, the other one gives more healing, etc.
Maybe the commander could have two modes the current mode and the first person mode where the commander itself is a mobile cloud of consciousness. The idea is that the cloud could not exist off the infestation for long periods of time and the command could spawn as this cloud near a cyst on the infestation allowing them to do various things to annoy marines. Like making cysts explode etc. Obscure view of area being attacked. Build more cysts and spread the area which the commander can move without dissipating. Would add to eerie atmosphere with a life form as a cloud similar to that around eggs in alien spawn watching and scouting marines.
is there any way that we can ditch drifters, and make things like crags organically grow out of cysts? structures would have their own infestation field. drifters could be produced solely to build new hives and harvesters.
as it is i really don't see a compelling argument to drifter gameplay as it is. drifters are too weak to make flare a useful ability, they're buggy and pathfinding is still lacking and they get stuck on things. It would be much, much better to roll structure building into cysts to give infestation gameplay more depth: you can either choose to keep a cyst to bolster the infestation in an area, or turn it into some sort of other structure. it would reduce placement headache, make structure limits much easier to implement, and allow the comm to make a choice between expansion and fortifying without having to commit to one path prematurely, as well as make alien comm play a little more intuitive.
<!--quoteo(post=1895415:date=Jan 18 2012, 12:01 AM:name=Wolpertinger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wolpertinger @ Jan 18 2012, 12:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895415"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Being able to draw the infestation, build with it. I imagine it to be very cool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. Alien commander paints on the infestation. That sounds very fun. And it fits this whole "gardener" mystique Charlie's going for.
Cysts, as mentioned a few post back, would just be using for spreading the infestation more quickly and to use as mines.
<!--quoteo(post=1895419:date=Jan 18 2012, 12:11 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Jan 18 2012, 12:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895419"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->is there any way that we can ditch drifters, and make things like crags organically grow out of cysts? structures would have their own infestation field. drifters could be produced solely to build new hives and harvesters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. Drifters should only be used to create structures where there is not already infestation -- in other words, mainly just for hive drops. The other buildings should grow out of the infestation.
Also, I really think Infestation-/Alien-commander should be able to "dive" into the map. So he can also look onto the walls and the ceiling, to paint/manipulate the infestation.
Sorry if this is idea was already mentioned before, i didnt read the whole thread.
Pheromones => a too fancy way for global waypoints...
-<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--> Global waypoints (a global waypoint without the need of selecting a unit) is something <u>both teams</u> should have. (maybe even need)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> (very very useful in public games with ppl that dont really know anything - makes it easier for the commander, individual waypoints is something you never really need) - also stuff like repair X, X need heal, build Z etc.. most of the stuff should be tagged automatically - at least if a marine or alien is in X range of it. If its something on the other end of the map, ok fine - place a global waypoint - and tell your team guyX and guyY, you are close - go check this area out... (and the autotagging/waypoint will help them find what has to be done - build a dropped rt, repair the damaged powernode whatever.)
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->If you want to do something with pheromones, well then make them a support/micromanage ability kinda like medpacks, ammo, catalyst, nano shield etc.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Alien commanders dont really have a good active way to support their mates, and the aoe effects around the chambers are very very crappy and not worth using - its too inflexible, just not fun to use.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Why not combine umbra, cloak etc with the pheromone ability???<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
E.g. - Umbra pheromone cloud, castable everywhere on alien territory (near structures, infestation) Creates a cloud for X seconds, effect = bullets 50% miss blabla Y seconds, aliens that leave the cloud still have the effect for Z seconds. Costs P res/pres <u>maybe also a cooldown.</u> - Cloak cloud, creates a cloud for X seconds, makes aliens + alien structures invisible that are inside the cloud for Y seconds, aliens that leave the cloud stay invisible for Zs Costs P res/pres <u>maybe also a cooldown.</u> Energy is a bad resource. (but we have other threads about that)
Global waypoints should be kinda the same on both sides, tho you can still use a cloud (invisible for marines) on alien side with a waypoint element.
PS: the support clouds dont all have to be super big(maybe some are only as big as a ~ player), so you can balance it a bit better for stuff like umbra - besides res costs and or cooldowns.
Gotta agree with Koruyo here. Making the two teams play arbitrarily differently only really says "Hey look! Asymmetry!", even if it's at the cost of good tools and a good interface. I made a big, long <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=112500&st=20&p=1834670&#entry1834670" target="_blank">post about this in the past</a> (some of the ideas in there may be outdated).
Sample: <!--quoteo(post=1834670:date=Feb 24 2011, 07:42 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 24 2011, 07:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834670"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u>13. Commanders: More versatile (and common to both teams) order system:</u> Three interacting types: marker (objective), waypoint (order), and ping (alertion). <b>.A.</b> each visually distinct, and functionally distinct. (Waypoints arguably not useful to alien player style; but arguably not useful to a voice-comm marine commander either.) <i>.A.a. markers are objectives, seen by the whole team, of "low" priority</i> <i>.A.b. waypoints are orders, seen by the selected unit/squad, of "medium" priority</i> <i>.A.c. pings are alertions, seen by the whole team but relevant only to those within proximity, of "high" priority</i> <b>.B.</b> in "Order' tab: Waypoints in 2nd row, Markers in 3rd row <b>.C.</b> each of variety, move, attack, defend, possibly build/repair <b>.D.</b> each will display as a list on the HUD, each type in different colours <b>.E.</b> 'remove' button, also a keyboard shortcut, to remove markers, waypoints and pings<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the thread of a Zombie Master/Overmind style Kham (which seems to be winding down in popularity), I'd like to point out several main pheromone features that would accompany it.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Pheromones Cost P-Res<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> Kham needs a way to direct/manage his own little garden of death without destroying his team's ability to Hive2 or upgrade, so this one is a no-brainer. Besides, like the Com, a good Kham should hopefully be having enough fun (and doing enough good) that he'd rather be spending his P-Res in the hive than on the battlefield.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Basic Pheromone Categories<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> - The ever essential "attack" pheromone is something that can never truly be excluded. Khams need a way to organically direct player focus, because no matter how good a gardener you are, you're just going to find a 6-strong attack force tough to deal with. <i>-An on-infestation-only AoE drop to highlight attacking Marines on the minimap in any attention-grabbing colour can go a long way to hive defense. This ability should be free, with its only limitation being that the Kham can only tell aliens to prioritize one "group" of enemies at a time. </i> - Temporary "stalling" pheromones can slow down a devastating attack to give your boys time to regroup. They aren't cheap, and they don't last forever, but these abilities will be the difference between a successful hive push or a disastrous one. <i>-Exuding a thinner, less damaging version of spore from infestation can soften up marines slightly, or if used wisely, can bog them down in hesitation or even force them to take a longer path around. - Everybody loves babblers! I don't even know what these things are, but at the rate people on these forums love to talk them up, they've got to be good for stalling <b>something</b>, right? - Complete, atmospheric blackness is another tool that works equally well as a surprise ambush or end-path deterrent. Tie it into the Shift and add a tiny black hole sucking the room's light into its center for a few seconds beforehand, and you've got that thing I just described with that additional detail I mentioned. - Many more possibilities exist! If you can think of it, you can use it to inconvenience, deter, or just plain screw with attackers. </i> - Permanent "reinforcement" pheromones would be Kham investments into the infestation in order to improve his territory. <i>- A grow pheromone could thicken up local infestation and encourage rapid growth around its edges, similar to the effect of upgrading a cyst in the recent java DI simulator. Thicker growth would slow down Marines more, and growth too thick would (theoretically, towards the launch end of things) block passage for large exosuits and Oni all together. - A crag-tied heal pheromone could buff alien regeneration for a patch of infestation, a shade one would camouflage everything that was still, and a whip one increase kharaa damage when on it. Visual changes abound! Limit one upgrade per discrete patch. - Cerberi!</i>
Comments
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->I think there should be a sixth alien type -- the infestation.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> You <i>are</i> the infestation, rather than just some alien camping out fetus like inside the womb of a hive.
There's been a lot of talk about making the infestation feel more alive, and I think this is best achieved by making the alien commander, in essence, <i>be the infestation</i>. Controlling the release of pheromones, exploding cysts, or releasing obscuring fog/insects, etc. Less of an emphasis on building, and more on spreading, like a virulent plague. Also, more on setting <i>traps</i>, which I think would be very cool. You are manipulating the environment to find novel ways of leading your foes to their doom. That sounds very fun to play, and fits the guerrilla style warfare the aliens so excel at.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->I think there should be a sixth alien type -- the infestation.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> You <i>are</i> the infestation, rather than just some alien camping out fetus like inside the womb of a hive.
There's been a lot of talk about making the infestation feel more alive, and I think this is best achieved by making the alien commander, in essence, <i>be the infestation</i>. Controlling the release of pheromones, exploding cysts, or releasing obscuring fog/insects, etc. Less of an emphasis on building, and more on spreading, like a virulent plague. Also, more on setting <i>traps</i>, which I think would be very cool. You are manipulating the environment to find novel ways of leading your foes to their doom. That sounds very fun to play, and fits the guerrilla style warfare the aliens so excel at.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think a Zombie Master style kham roll could be really rewarding and unique for NS2.
Yeah kinda of. I just think the alien com doesn't feel, well, alien enough. It should be <i>completely</i> different than the marine com. So I think whereas the marine com mostly buffs and aid his teammates, the alien com should focus on subtly and cleverly hurting his enemies, manipulating the environment to the disadvantage of the marines.
I see the alien com as being kind of like a hacker and a saboteur. If that makes any sense.
I see the alien com as being kind of like a hacker and a saboteur. If that makes any sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ja.
And to people who don't know what I mean by Zombie Master, it's <a href="http://www.zombiemaster.org/" target="_blank">a popular HL2 mod</a> that pits a single intelligent player against a team of (supposedly) coordinated survivors via control over environmental traps and the ability to influence/direct (but not micro) the zombie horde. It's a really alien feeling, and you get a nice twisted pleasure from springing your traps on them and watching them try to adapt, suffer through it, or just freak out. Then next round you wind up a survivor again and get just as much fun trying to stick it to the new master and/or freaking out as your team falls apart.
It might seem like a digression, but I think that sort of *detached overseer* has a lot to contribute to our *cosmic gardener*'s playstyle. The ZM team already spent years trying to figure out ways to make a passive environmental role entertaining to play even when there wasn't direct action to be taken; I think looking at a few of the lessons they learned might be worth a shot.
but probably would have better results with some temporary ka-ching at the end of the rainbow.
Expanding +2 Regen
Scout +2 Personal resources
Waypoints having this ka-ching would also have good results.
<a href="http://www.hark.com/clips/zhcclrkqvm-ka-ching-button" target="_blank">http://www.hark.com/clips/zhcclrkqvm-ka-ching-button</a>
So red is, follow to area.
Yellow cysts are neutral.
Green cysts are building.. Think how a banana ripens for the idea behind this visual effect.
The commander should be able to turn a cysts red, to help them direct an alien to an area that needs help. The idea is that this is a direct opposite to the way pointing system. Its more creative, restricted to infestation and gives the alien commander a purpose and way to communicate troops to troubled areas. The tradeoff here is marines can also see these, so your aliens will protect them to keep that communication link because they need it and so they can effectively stop marines that are along their red route.
Very rough idea that may need working on. Communication needs something new on alien commander.
One of my favorite lurk abilities is the spores. Not because of the damage, but because it obscures vision. Having a lurk dive bomb your team, loosing your ability to see, but knowing all of those scurrying skulks can still see you, is more than a little nerve-wracking. I think the pheromones should work more like that. They don't boost or reduce stats, they just -- again -- change the environment to suit the aliens.
One of my favorite lurk abilities is the spores. Not because of the damage, but because it obscures vision. Having a lurk dive bomb your team, loosing your ability to see, but knowing all of those scurrying skulks can still see you, is more than a little nerve-wracking. I think the pheromones should work more like that. They don't boost or reduce stats, they just -- again -- change the environment to suit the aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a neat concept and I would actually like that....but
I still want these pheremones to direct the aliens.
Aliens have horrible coordination, even when fade was super-duper-fade, the end game would take forever because not everyone would show at marine spawn.
2 fades of a team of 8 would slowly hack every structure there...silly.
I still want these pheremones to direct the aliens.
Aliens have horrible coordination, even when fade was super-duper-fade, the end game would take forever because not everyone would show at marine spawn.
2 fades of a team of 8 would slowly hack every structure there...silly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah sure. I"m all for the pheromones as waypoints. I was speaking out against adding very powerful buffs -- then people might use them randomly, just to help out some guy way out in the boondocks, rather than use them to direct all the aliens on one location. I could just see the whole alien team run off to nowhere, while marines ravage their hive.
If you give "orders" an added advantage, it unbalances the game.
If you give "orders" a cost or cooldown along with the advantage to balance it, it simply makes giving "orders" conditional and not always-available like it should be.
By all means, have "orders", and have "abilities", but don't <i>combine</i> the two.
I fully support Charlie's plan for "order/waypoint"-style pheromones.
Another suggestion someone made I think is far more compelling, that the alien commander is actually playing the infestation. Personally, I don't care much for cysts, they're obnoxious to baby sit and easy to kill, I can see keeping them, but ultimately, the alien commander should guide the direction of infestation growth, without cysts, with cysts themselves being used to place "instant infestation." The marines would fight back against infestation by powering up areas (which reverses the growth of infestation) or flamethrowers (instant infestation destruction, much like cysts, but with the opposite effect.) Adding in additional abilities such as infestation heights, constriction, or other effects would be great. Imagine being able to command infestation to swell, thus cutting off a hallway to being something you need to crawl through single file, or using it to crush open sealed doors.
The method of encroachment on both sides prevents games from sitting in stalemates because eventually, the infestation will get all the way into the marine base or the marines will power up all the areas preventing infestation from spreading out. Infestation could be a slow counter to sentry guns (blocking LOS or actually spilling over and destroying the guns.) In essence the marine commander functions by having excellent situational awareness on the map, allowing him to allow his team to respond to individual threats in a coordinated fashion, and also assisting them in doing so, while the alien commander would be focused on the insidious spread of infestation to prevent enemies from responding well by closing areas, assisting assaults by overwhelming static defenses, or sneakily invading bases to finish games. Imagine the two following situations made possible by infestation control.
1: The marines have seized data core and are fortifying the position with sentry guns, they've spent too much res to research flame throwers. Seeing weakness the alien comm directs infestation to spread into data core from alien start with the aid of a few cysts. The infestation boils into the lower level, before climbing the wall and rolling over the sentry guns, digesting them, followed by a wave of aliens who force them back. The marine commander starts to save res to research for flamethrowers, if he can't stop the spread of infestation it will inexorably advance into his base.
2: The aliens have been beaten back room after room, with little hope remaining. The final battles are occurring in reactor in crevice as marines battle through the infested corridors. The alien commander, desperate to secure victory, with the aid of a gorge who places a line of cysts in vents, sends infestation into xroads through vents, then sneaks it into marine start where it starts to overwhelm structures. The marines suddenly find their prime base without power, their buildings being damaged by bacterial infestation devouring structures. They must pull back or risk the infestation overwhelming their base while they are occupied.
Ultimately it allows for the alien commander to effectively play a third alien. This also allows gorges to take over most if not all of the structure construction because the alien commander has much more to do with modifying the battlefield.
Give the Kham some support abilities, sure.
All I'm saying is, keep them separate.
I see two basic implimentations of this.
1st alien vision color code things smell different people smell different so what if instead of everything being yellow bob is orange and Jane is red and that greasy Mac is grey...
Reason you jump into a pack of riines and can't tell bob from John even though John hasn't showered in a week and you already bit home twice...
2nd stink cloud... A constant trail of stink that dissipates great for tracking or if a rine is hidding behind something the longer he sits there the larger his stench cloud gets. Counter extra strength Gillette....
Reason cloud would hinder campers trail would be informative you see two trails together and you know there's 2 rines ahead you see a big trail and you know the rines are moving out in force... Also makes tweaking that sneaky ninja fun...
Obviously in a alien vs marine an advantage to one off balances the game so maybe limit this to gorges since those little pigs have those big noses, or change the dissipation rate depending on class fades don't have a very good sence of smell....
Could add some cool environmental interactions ... He hid next to that fan or went out side, damn that draft...
Works for aliens too kinda like hive sight see where your team ran off to.
Pheromones should work similar to umbra, A cloud is released, you walk through it to get tagged. Is a timed effect eg: 60 seconds.
Released from commander pustules by the commander. (Clever pustuals placement to create traps for marines)
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Marines tagged with pheromones:(foes)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<u>Hydras:</u> Hit range is extended to pheromone tagged marines. uses structures energy for distance shots till depleted.
<u>Crag:</u> Automaticly releases umbra when tagged marines are in line of sight. uses structures energy till depleted.
<u>Shade:</u> Automaticly activates all shades connected to the infestation tagged players are walking on. Cloaking buildings and players
<u>Infestation:</u> Would start to create a mist a foot above the floor helping to obscure cysts and skulks
<u>Hive:</u> The Tenticals of the hive will attack a tagged Marine like a whip.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->
Aliens tagged with pheromones:(friend)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<u>Hydra: ???</u>
<u>Crag:</u> Overcharge a players health or armor like the medic in team fortess 2. Overcharged health or armor immediately starts to drop off once out of area of effect. Uses structures energy to overcharge a player.
<u>Shade:</u> ??? Cloaks a player faster ?
<u>Infestation:</u> Healing rate is more effective.
<u>Hive:</u> ??? Upgrade faster ???
Give the Kham some support abilities, sure.
All I'm saying is, keep them separate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sound advice.
The alien comm could use some support powers, but they shouldn't be tacked onto his only proper tool for directing players.
All I wanted to point out was having a role set aside for only coordinating the team by dropping pheromones or whatever would be a huge mistake. I started typing it up when nobody else had responded to Flayra yet. At this point in development, I'd settle for just about any outcome other than some powerless Alien Manager telling people what to do.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->I think there should be a sixth alien type -- the infestation.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> You <i>are</i> the infestation, rather than just some alien camping out fetus like inside the womb of a hive.
There's been a lot of talk about making the infestation feel more alive, and I think this is best achieved by making the alien commander, in essence, <i>be the infestation</i>. Controlling the release of pheromones, exploding cysts, or releasing obscuring fog/insects, etc. Less of an emphasis on building, and more on spreading, like a virulent plague. Also, more on setting <i>traps</i>, which I think would be very cool. You are manipulating the environment to find novel ways of leading your foes to their doom. That sounds very fun to play, and fits the guerrilla style warfare the aliens so excel at.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This zombie master style role is brilliant. It would open up so many many many creative and different ways of playing the same game. Its incredibly player focused, open ended and could result in some really interesting metagame. It makes sense and gives aliens that very distinct character.
Only with the infestation. That should be really fun and very different from Marine commanding. Being able to draw the infestation, build with it. I imagine it to be very cool.
And combined with Charlie's idea of 'corpse -> infestation boost' - it would be very interesting if the infestation/commander just decides to grab an alien to use him to close a hallway. The alien does not even have to agree... hehe...
I also like the idea of the infestation being like a cancer. (Coulb even be part of the story. The Kharra are actually not as aggressive? They are infected themselfs?) (Micro-)Managing the infestation so it won't become a threat for aliens. Sounds nice.
Possibly the infestation could have different areas-of-effect, indicated by color? (Intensity of green.) One area makes aliens faster, the other one gives more healing, etc.
Maybe the commander could have two modes the current mode and the first person mode where the commander itself is a mobile cloud of consciousness. The idea is that the cloud could not exist off the infestation for long periods of time and the command could spawn as this cloud near a cyst on the infestation allowing them to do various things to annoy marines.
Like making cysts explode etc.
Obscure view of area being attacked.
Build more cysts and spread the area which the commander can move without dissipating.
Would add to eerie atmosphere with a life form as a cloud similar to that around eggs in alien spawn watching and scouting marines.
as it is i really don't see a compelling argument to drifter gameplay as it is. drifters are too weak to make flare a useful ability, they're buggy and pathfinding is still lacking and they get stuck on things. It would be much, much better to roll structure building into cysts to give infestation gameplay more depth: you can either choose to keep a cyst to bolster the infestation in an area, or turn it into some sort of other structure. it would reduce placement headache, make structure limits much easier to implement, and allow the comm to make a choice between expansion and fortifying without having to commit to one path prematurely, as well as make alien comm play a little more intuitive.
Yes. Alien commander paints on the infestation. That sounds very fun. And it fits this whole "gardener" mystique Charlie's going for.
Cysts, as mentioned a few post back, would just be using for spreading the infestation more quickly and to use as mines.
<!--quoteo(post=1895419:date=Jan 18 2012, 12:11 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Jan 18 2012, 12:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895419"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->is there any way that we can ditch drifters, and make things like crags organically grow out of cysts? structures would have their own infestation field. drifters could be produced solely to build new hives and harvesters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. Drifters should only be used to create structures where there is not already infestation -- in other words, mainly just for hive drops. The other buildings should grow out of the infestation.
Pheromones => a too fancy way for global waypoints...
-<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--> Global waypoints (a global waypoint without the need of selecting a unit) is something <u>both teams</u> should have. (maybe even need)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
(very very useful in public games with ppl that dont really know anything - makes it easier for the commander, individual waypoints is something you never really need)
- also stuff like repair X, X need heal, build Z etc.. most of the stuff should be tagged automatically - at least if a marine or alien is in X range of it.
If its something on the other end of the map, ok fine - place a global waypoint - and tell your team guyX and guyY, you are close - go check this area out... (and the autotagging/waypoint will help them find what has to be done - build a dropped rt, repair the damaged powernode whatever.)
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->If you want to do something with pheromones, well then make them a support/micromanage ability kinda like medpacks, ammo, catalyst, nano shield etc.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Alien commanders dont really have a good active way to support their mates, and the aoe effects around the chambers are very very crappy and not worth using - its too inflexible, just not fun to use.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Why not combine umbra, cloak etc with the pheromone ability???<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
E.g.
- Umbra pheromone cloud, castable everywhere on alien territory (near structures, infestation)
Creates a cloud for X seconds, effect = bullets 50% miss blabla Y seconds, aliens that leave the cloud still have the effect for Z seconds. Costs P res/pres <u>maybe also a cooldown.</u>
- Cloak cloud, creates a cloud for X seconds, makes aliens + alien structures invisible that are inside the cloud for Y seconds, aliens that leave the cloud stay invisible for Zs Costs P res/pres <u>maybe also a cooldown.</u>
Energy is a bad resource. (but we have other threads about that)
Global waypoints should be kinda the same on both sides, tho you can still use a cloud (invisible for marines) on alien side with a waypoint element.
PS: the support clouds dont all have to be super big(maybe some are only as big as a ~ player), so you can balance it a bit better for stuff like umbra - besides res costs and or cooldowns.
Sample:
<!--quoteo(post=1834670:date=Feb 24 2011, 07:42 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 24 2011, 07:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834670"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u>13. Commanders: More versatile (and common to both teams) order system:</u>
Three interacting types: marker (objective), waypoint (order), and ping (alertion).
<b>.A.</b> each visually distinct, and functionally distinct. (Waypoints arguably not useful to alien player style; but arguably not useful to a voice-comm marine commander either.)
<i>.A.a. markers are objectives, seen by the whole team, of "low" priority</i>
<i>.A.b. waypoints are orders, seen by the selected unit/squad, of "medium" priority</i>
<i>.A.c. pings are alertions, seen by the whole team but relevant only to those within proximity, of "high" priority</i>
<b>.B.</b> in "Order' tab: Waypoints in 2nd row, Markers in 3rd row
<b>.C.</b> each of variety, move, attack, defend, possibly build/repair
<b>.D.</b> each will display as a list on the HUD, each type in different colours
<b>.E.</b> 'remove' button, also a keyboard shortcut, to remove markers, waypoints and pings<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Pheromones Cost P-Res<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Kham needs a way to direct/manage his own little garden of death without destroying his team's ability to Hive2 or upgrade, so this one is a no-brainer. Besides, like the Com, a good Kham should hopefully be having enough fun (and doing enough good) that he'd rather be spending his P-Res in the hive than on the battlefield.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Basic Pheromone Categories<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
- The ever essential "attack" pheromone is something that can never truly be excluded. Khams need a way to organically direct player focus, because no matter how good a gardener you are, you're just going to find a 6-strong attack force tough to deal with.
<i>-An on-infestation-only AoE drop to highlight attacking Marines on the minimap in any attention-grabbing colour can go a long way to hive defense. This ability should be free, with its only limitation being that the Kham can only tell aliens to prioritize one "group" of enemies at a time.
</i>
- Temporary "stalling" pheromones can slow down a devastating attack to give your boys time to regroup. They aren't cheap, and they don't last forever, but these abilities will be the difference between a successful hive push or a disastrous one.
<i>-Exuding a thinner, less damaging version of spore from infestation can soften up marines slightly, or if used wisely, can bog them down in hesitation or even force them to take a longer path around.
- Everybody loves babblers! I don't even know what these things are, but at the rate people on these forums love to talk them up, they've got to be good for stalling <b>something</b>, right?
- Complete, atmospheric blackness is another tool that works equally well as a surprise ambush or end-path deterrent. Tie it into the Shift and add a tiny black hole sucking the room's light into its center for a few seconds beforehand, and you've got that thing I just described with that additional detail I mentioned.
- Many more possibilities exist! If you can think of it, you can use it to inconvenience, deter, or just plain screw with attackers.
</i>
- Permanent "reinforcement" pheromones would be Kham investments into the infestation in order to improve his territory.
<i>- A grow pheromone could thicken up local infestation and encourage rapid growth around its edges, similar to the effect of upgrading a cyst in the recent java DI simulator. Thicker growth would slow down Marines more, and growth too thick would (theoretically, towards the launch end of things) block passage for large exosuits and Oni all together.
- A crag-tied heal pheromone could buff alien regeneration for a patch of infestation, a shade one would camouflage everything that was still, and a whip one increase kharaa damage when on it. Visual changes abound! Limit one upgrade per discrete patch.
- Cerberi!</i>