Regarding the "spore spike" idea, which I personally find fitting, it could encourage headshots as spores currently damage Marines at head height. If it dealt massive damage and produced a small spore cloud where it hits, it would be a fitting finisher weapon.
I would take that as alt-fire over shotgun spike, and perhaps trailing spores could be changed into short-lived Umbra clouds instead, which would be less opaque and actually provide cover for fellow Kharaa.
<!--quoteo(post=1897529:date=Jan 27 2012, 06:39 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Jan 27 2012, 06:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this is why i suggested replacing the machine gun spikes with a single fire DOT spike. it allows dodging, with a small window of opportunity to stop and fire a spike at your opponent. the initial damage will be low, but if your skill increases to where you can engage and land several spikes, it will be a major deterrent to marines, or force the comm to waste res medspamming. coupled with ranged spores, would make lerks very effective at area denial. same concept as in NS1, just a different implementation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problems with that is: - Missing with a spike is <i>relatively</i> easy, and because it's a single spike you either do zero damage or all damage, it's binary and doesn't quite scale. It's got the same problem as the bite. If, to account for this, you increase the rate of fire, you risk making it too powerful, basically the current spikes with a damage buff. - Single spike with a zero "spread" means that it's too good at a range, basically the sniper spike from earlier builds; or single-spike with a "spread" means that the weapon is inconsistent and unpredictable.
The shotgun spike overcomes these problems: - Even if you slightly miss opponents, you still do some damage because there are multiple spikes in a <i>relatively</i> wide spread. - The <i>relatively</i> wide spread means that it is consistently both very ineffective at range and very effective in proximity.
<!--quoteo(post=1897573:date=Jan 26 2012, 10:06 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 26 2012, 10:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897573"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problems with that is: - Missing with a spike is <i>relatively</i> easy, and because it's a single spike you either do zero damage or all damage, it's binary and doesn't quite scale. It's got the same problem as the bite. If, to account for this, you increase the rate of fire, you risk making it too powerful, basically the current spikes with a damage buff. - Single spike with a zero "spread" means that it's too good at a range, basically the sniper spike from earlier builds; or single-spike with a "spread" means that the weapon is inconsistent and unpredictable.
The shotgun spike overcomes these problems: - Even if you slightly miss opponents, you still do some damage because there are multiple spikes in a <i>relatively</i> wide spread. - The <i>relatively</i> wide spread means that it is consistently both very ineffective at range and very effective in proximity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
true...i wonder if we could make the shotgun spike a sort of charge-up attack where the longer you held the button down the narrower the cone of fire got (to a limit). that way you could pick your engagement distance; at melee range just tap the button and you get a wide spread and will most likely hit with some of it, or at midrange you can charge it up while dodging and then wait for your opportunity shot.
The reality behind this tweet is that a LOT of the building health values (or damage vs buildings) need to change.
Lerks are just the most exaggerated way to show this off, because 90% of marines still can't aim and the hide bonus from the recent patch makes playing lerk against them just a bit easier.
Why not make a general solution that applies to all buildings (for both teams) instead of tweaking the lerk until you can tweak no more?
you can't increase marine structure health very much, or aliens will have a hard time clearing out a marine fortification before the 2nd wave of reinforcements get there.
<!--quoteo(post=1897599:date=Jan 27 2012, 01:02 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Jan 27 2012, 01:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897599"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->true...i wonder if we could make the shotgun spike a sort of charge-up attack where the longer you held the button down the narrower the cone of fire got (to a limit). that way you could pick your engagement distance; at melee range just tap the button and you get a wide spread and will most likely hit with some of it, or at midrange you can charge it up while dodging and then wait for your opportunity shot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I quite like that idea. Strangely, the other game that had hold-down-to-focus, Mount and Blade, I didn't really like it much in that.
<!--quoteo(post=1897619:date=Jan 27 2012, 06:03 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Jan 27 2012, 06:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897619"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->aliens will have a hard time clearing out a marine fortification before the 2nd wave of reinforcements get there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
is that actually a problem?
right now the 'feel' of killing a marines' base as aliens is totally off, in my opinion
you spend less time killing important things like observatories and IPs than you do breaking the silly power nodes (which are brutally easy to repair)
shouldn't aliens who are attacking a base full-throttle have to assert control by fighting reinforcements?
idk, i just don't want a game that promotes turtling by marines. I want aggressive play to be rewarded, not sitting in base behind turrets. if you make expansions too easy to reinforce, then aliens will have to have a ridiculous amount of map control to make any headway against entrenched marines. that's not a good game mechanic imo.
I only ever go after the power node when I don't have a better target, or if it's the best way to get deeper into a base. Like someone else said, it's stupidly easy to repair, and so marines tend to rush to put it right back online. Whereas if there's no MAC nearby, a building you chew down actually needs replacement, which is costly. Especially when you're nailing down, say, a relatively un-built-up res node, chewing on the power core is a waste of time... your target is the res node, chew on the res node!
The thing is, attacking the powernode or commandstation <u>forces marines</u> to actively defend it(because if structure dies you pretty much lose, or have a high chance of losing) - which usually means retreat. (beacon, going back to phasegate, running back from at least a few marines => all this stuff weakens marine front etc)
And as long as aliens have a 2nd hive under construction somewhere, basetrade is the easiest thing to try. (so they cant focus on your rts, and they cant properly rush a hive)
Build 194 is a perfect example of how the usefulness of the lerk is balanced on a hair trigger.
Without hide, marines are properly rewarded for aiming at you by dealing a good amount of damage. It's also ever so slightly easier to aim at you, as performance continues to increase.
(Still) without your damage ever increasing, and attacks costing more adrenaline, AND marines getting more mobility, your ability to deal damage is impaired.
Without the ability to get pres from kills, there is no incentive to try and evolve to lerk before shotguns are out - any competent marine team will have shotguns out before you can go lerk, even if you got 3-4 kills in your first life as a skulk. At the same time, killing buildings takes an excruciatingly long time with the new adrenaline cost of spikes. It's also very hard to work with skulks for a "pure combat" playstyle, when you move 10 times as fast as them and make yourself very obvious all the time.
Interestingly, the spike shotgun has the same adrenaline cost it always did. Guess what else it has? Random pellet spread, no ability to increase in damage as the marines' armor develops, and an adrenaline cost about 10 times more than the equivalent damage dealt by spikes (which makes it also terrible against buildings).
Spores are the exact same as before, except there are more ways for marines to escape them.
Without umbra or primal scream, lerks have basically no interaction with the fancy new Onos class (outside of when they both click on the same marine together).
I'm sure things will get better, but it's really obvious that the hide mechanic was not a real solution to anything.
I didn't really read it. Sorry. It was more of a general reply to the thread. But I think that one (big) issue that the lerk has, and that <i>hide</i> tried to fix, is that it's just so easy to kill. Someone posted an image of the lerk superimposed on the marine, and dear god, it's massive.
I think lerk size isn't anywhere near the top of the list of problems. For one thing, the lerk's figure is only revealed to you 'in full' if it floats above you from up close. Anywhere else, and you see a thin T-shape of the wings and body. That T-shape should be moving all over the place in crazy arcs and not letting you trace it easily.
I think the problem hide was trying to fix is that the lerk cannot actually engage in combat against someone who knows how to aim, spends pres on a better gun than the LMG and so on. The reason it didn't work is that you don't fix something like that by leaving the gameplay the same and putting the lerk in fisher price easy mode. Even hide didn't REALLY solve the lerk's problems. Anyone who tried to fight 2+ competent marines (with a shotgun among them) at once can probably attest to this. It just made it easy to kill stray LMG marines and survive turrets, until you are viciously countered by everything from the shotgun up in the tech tree.
The core problems are still that the lerk's 2 weapons actively work against each other, and everything about lerk combat is geared toward blinding people so your teammates can have fun in combat. Doesn't take too many words to say that, I guess!
Bumping this with a reply since I feel it needs attention.
I played lerk mostly in NS1 unless it got to really late game and we needed more fades/onoses, and Lerks used to be effective from rushing them early game all the way until end game. Early-mid game they were great skirmishers, gassing marines from safety and using that as area denial to defend early res nodes, and when a marine was weak they could get in, focus bite, and get out before being sprayed to death. From mid to late game that role would shift into support/finisher, with umbra they would support charges or defend at critical moments, and with scream they could help fades acid rocket turret farms down and break the marines shell.
Now, I don't see any of those things (mostly because they don't even have umbra or scream) mostly because in order to support they have to take really big risks with how the spores are now, and they can't finish anyone off because of how little damage spikes do, not to mention how inaccurate they are. They can't even take out structures that are unguarded. So they're not good against marines, and they're bad against structures, and they're support is minimal, they're a flying gorge without bile bomb or heal.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Here are a few different changes to Spore I think are worth a try:
1. Reduce the duration of Spores, but increase its damage-per-second. (Turn Spores into an effective weapon, rather than being mostly a smoke screen.)
2. Restore/Add projectile spore as a weapon. The projectile deals instant damage in the area on impact, and leaves a spore cloud that deals minimal damage over time. (The new "rocket launcher" weapon rewards Lerks players for good aim.)
A long time back I suggested the lerk have the same sticky wall code that the skulk had. So the landing of a lerk can be less predetermined. Currently when i land...I go through this internal conversation saying "No not there ..." mostly related to the fact that I don't want to land on the floor. and also the lerk could swing out of nowhere do some damage and stick somewhere to the rafters.
I know thread is discussing other options but I am just trying to make the lerk feel more worth the money. I have a longer lifecycle as a skulk and he is cheaper (FREE). and i am pretty happy with the current flight model (I would really like it if i did not have to flap at all...but flapping is minimal)
Also this suggestion is hopefully fairly easy to try (copy walking code of skulk...keep lerk's slow walking speed). We must be laser focused on these suggestions and tweaks due to time is ticking.
<!--quoteo(post=1900333:date=Feb 6 2012, 09:18 PM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ Feb 6 2012, 09:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900333"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also this suggestion is hopefully fairly easy to try (copy walking code of skulk...keep lerk's slow walking speed). We must be laser focused on these suggestions and tweaks due to time is ticking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1900316:date=Feb 6 2012, 03:34 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Feb 6 2012, 03:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here are a few different changes to Spore I think are worth a try:
1. Reduce the duration of Spores, but increase its damage-per-second. (Turn Spores into an effective weapon, rather than being mostly a smoke screen.)
2. Restore/Add projectile spore as a weapon. The projectile deals instant damage in the area on impact, and leaves a spore cloud that deals minimal damage over time. (The new "rocket launcher" weapon rewards Lerks players for good aim.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Why make the low-skill weapon more powerful? The entire problem with the class is it's designed to be played by and against low-skill players.
2) I like this because, like you said, it rewards good aim. That's better than rewarding them for having a functioning left click.
<!--quoteo(post=1900333:date=Feb 6 2012, 04:18 PM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ Feb 6 2012, 04:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900333"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A long time back I suggested the lerk have the same sticky wall code that the skulk had. So the landing of a lerk can be less predetermined. Currently when i land...I go through this internal conversation saying "No not there ..." mostly related to the fact that I don't want to land on the floor. and also the lerk could swing out of nowhere do some damage and stick somewhere to the rafters.
I know thread is discussing other options but I am just trying to make the lerk feel more worth the money. I have a longer lifecycle as a skulk and he is cheaper (FREE). and i am pretty happy with the current flight model (I would really like it if i did not have to flap at all...but flapping is minimal)
Also this suggestion is hopefully fairly easy to try (copy walking code of skulk...keep lerk's slow walking speed). We must be laser focused on these suggestions and tweaks due to time is ticking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see the value in this, to be honest. How many times do you want to land as lerk and you can't find a prop to sit on (like the pipes in 'ventilation' on summit)? How often do you land as a lerk anyway?
Why shouldn't wall-scaling be a unique trait of the skulk?
Adding more ways for lerks to sit still and get shot won't solve any of the problems I mentioned.
Also, wingflapping is the entire reason the lerk flight has scaling usefulness/skill-influence. If you always moved at the same speed (blinking fade) or always sped up at the same rate (charging onos) it simply wouldn't be as versatile. The only problem right now is you don't get to take advantage of that versatility against anything but LMGs.
<!--quoteo(post=1895509:date=Jan 18 2012, 08:36 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jan 18 2012, 08:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895509"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The cropduster spores are way cooler than shooting a projectile IMO, I'd like to see them worked out. Maybe the gas should encompass the Lerk as he flies to make it more difficult to target him? They could use that to justify giving it a pseudo-self-Umbra effect that protects him if needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Very much agreed. I think if at all possible a way to make this mechanic work balance wise should be sought after. Its just too fun and cool to watch. It gives the lurker something engaging to do in combat rather than just poke at extreme range, which gets old fast. Perhaps the energy usage of the cloud should be increased, but while 'crop dusting' the lurker should gain a large defensive bonus from ranged attacks (at least ranged attacks in close range like a shotgun blast).
The idea of a headbutt of long cooldown burst melee range attack is definitely interesting. Either way, the secondary spike attack should be removed. Its extremely boring and seems fairly pointless.
A targeted projectile spore can also be used at close range to suicide if you don't like to succeed at the game. It's also useful for people with bigger ambitions, though!
I really don't see why the lerk wasn't just straight ported from ns 3.0. The lerk always worked best as an alien with weak ranged harrass and decent melee damage. This meant that you could just sit back and eat the marines resources by chipping away at thier armour and health or you could commit to fights for higher damage. Right now it works almost completely opposite of this, with the lerk sitting back and chipping at single marines for decent damage or commiting to fights for low damage annoyance. The only real advantage to spores working as they do currently is that they are opaque enough to be used as cover for skulks.
Mostly my problem with spikes is the same that I've had since the flight model for lerks was drastically improved to the current one and that is that you can't spike and fly well no matter how good you are at the game because there is no way to maintain constant height while flying and you can't strafe in air. Thus the only way for you to do effective ranged damage to marines is to sit on the ground or in a fairly stationary position in a vent or on a ledge. This makes lerk, an incredibley fragile alien, a sitting duck for any marine that can aim at all.
Jetpacks are totally different though as their flight system is completely different. They can strafe, aim down and fly up, and fly backwards. Yes they are less agile aireally but their flight system directly benefits flying while shooting.
It needs to be viable for the lerk to attack and fly at the same time. The non-directional glide (hold space but no direction key, and it maintains altitude regardless of mouse pitch) is a good first-step.
I think jetpacks are just as hard on aiming as the lerk's flight. You can hold down space to use the jetpack, but you have to airstrafe to make it go anywhere. Once you're moving in a direction you have to strafe more to change direction or speed up or slow down. It's exactly like the lerk except the lerk gains speed faster and never has to stop flying. Lerks also don't have to push another key to reload, and a lerk with upgrades is cheaper than a jetpack plus any gun.
I hate to be a total curmudgeon with this thread, but the lerk's flight not being cooperative with aiming is not a major problem. Even if you made it so that players have full air control with their strafes (so they can move left/right/forward/back/up/down while aiming at no penalty), all the lerk's weapons would still be bad and its survivability would be poor for something that costs 30-36 pres. With the new patch, it also runs out of adrenaline before it can kill anything worth killing.
Comments
I would take that as alt-fire over shotgun spike, and perhaps trailing spores could be changed into short-lived Umbra clouds instead, which would be less opaque and actually provide cover for fellow Kharaa.
The problems with that is:
- Missing with a spike is <i>relatively</i> easy, and because it's a single spike you either do zero damage or all damage, it's binary and doesn't quite scale. It's got the same problem as the bite. If, to account for this, you increase the rate of fire, you risk making it too powerful, basically the current spikes with a damage buff.
- Single spike with a zero "spread" means that it's too good at a range, basically the sniper spike from earlier builds; or single-spike with a "spread" means that the weapon is inconsistent and unpredictable.
The shotgun spike overcomes these problems:
- Even if you slightly miss opponents, you still do some damage because there are multiple spikes in a <i>relatively</i> wide spread.
- The <i>relatively</i> wide spread means that it is consistently both very ineffective at range and very effective in proximity.
- Missing with a spike is <i>relatively</i> easy, and because it's a single spike you either do zero damage or all damage, it's binary and doesn't quite scale. It's got the same problem as the bite. If, to account for this, you increase the rate of fire, you risk making it too powerful, basically the current spikes with a damage buff.
- Single spike with a zero "spread" means that it's too good at a range, basically the sniper spike from earlier builds; or single-spike with a "spread" means that the weapon is inconsistent and unpredictable.
The shotgun spike overcomes these problems:
- Even if you slightly miss opponents, you still do some damage because there are multiple spikes in a <i>relatively</i> wide spread.
- The <i>relatively</i> wide spread means that it is consistently both very ineffective at range and very effective in proximity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
true...i wonder if we could make the shotgun spike a sort of charge-up attack where the longer you held the button down the narrower the cone of fire got (to a limit). that way you could pick your engagement distance; at melee range just tap the button and you get a wide spread and will most likely hit with some of it, or at midrange you can charge it up while dodging and then wait for your opportunity shot.
The reality behind this tweet is that a LOT of the building health values (or damage vs buildings) need to change.
Lerks are just the most exaggerated way to show this off, because 90% of marines still can't aim and the hide bonus from the recent patch makes playing lerk against them just a bit easier.
Why not make a general solution that applies to all buildings (for both teams) instead of tweaking the lerk until you can tweak no more?
I quite like that idea.
Strangely, the other game that had hold-down-to-focus, Mount and Blade, I didn't really like it much in that.
is that actually a problem?
right now the 'feel' of killing a marines' base as aliens is totally off, in my opinion
you spend less time killing important things like observatories and IPs than you do breaking the silly power nodes (which are brutally easy to repair)
shouldn't aliens who are attacking a base full-throttle have to assert control by fighting reinforcements?
And as long as aliens have a 2nd hive under construction somewhere, basetrade is the easiest thing to try. (so they cant focus on your rts, and they cant properly rush a hive)
Without hide, marines are properly rewarded for aiming at you by dealing a good amount of damage. It's also ever so slightly easier to aim at you, as performance continues to increase.
(Still) without your damage ever increasing, and attacks costing more adrenaline, AND marines getting more mobility, your ability to deal damage is impaired.
Without the ability to get pres from kills, there is no incentive to try and evolve to lerk before shotguns are out - any competent marine team will have shotguns out before you can go lerk, even if you got 3-4 kills in your first life as a skulk. At the same time, killing buildings takes an excruciatingly long time with the new adrenaline cost of spikes. It's also very hard to work with skulks for a "pure combat" playstyle, when you move 10 times as fast as them and make yourself very obvious all the time.
Interestingly, the spike shotgun has the same adrenaline cost it always did. Guess what else it has? Random pellet spread, no ability to increase in damage as the marines' armor develops, and an adrenaline cost about 10 times more than the equivalent damage dealt by spikes (which makes it also terrible against buildings).
Spores are the exact same as before, except there are more ways for marines to escape them.
Without umbra or primal scream, lerks have basically no interaction with the fancy new Onos class (outside of when they both click on the same marine together).
I'm sure things will get better, but it's really obvious that the hide mechanic was not a real solution to anything.
I think the problem hide was trying to fix is that the lerk cannot actually engage in combat against someone who knows how to aim, spends pres on a better gun than the LMG and so on. The reason it didn't work is that you don't fix something like that by leaving the gameplay the same and putting the lerk in fisher price easy mode. Even hide didn't REALLY solve the lerk's problems. Anyone who tried to fight 2+ competent marines (with a shotgun among them) at once can probably attest to this. It just made it easy to kill stray LMG marines and survive turrets, until you are viciously countered by everything from the shotgun up in the tech tree.
The core problems are still that the lerk's 2 weapons actively work against each other, and everything about lerk combat is geared toward blinding people so your teammates can have fun in combat. Doesn't take too many words to say that, I guess!
I played lerk mostly in NS1 unless it got to really late game and we needed more fades/onoses, and Lerks used to be effective from rushing them early game all the way until end game. Early-mid game they were great skirmishers, gassing marines from safety and using that as area denial to defend early res nodes, and when a marine was weak they could get in, focus bite, and get out before being sprayed to death. From mid to late game that role would shift into support/finisher, with umbra they would support charges or defend at critical moments, and with scream they could help fades acid rocket turret farms down and break the marines shell.
Now, I don't see any of those things (mostly because they don't even have umbra or scream) mostly because in order to support they have to take really big risks with how the spores are now, and they can't finish anyone off because of how little damage spikes do, not to mention how inaccurate they are. They can't even take out structures that are unguarded. So they're not good against marines, and they're bad against structures, and they're support is minimal, they're a flying gorge without bile bomb or heal.
1. Reduce the duration of Spores, but increase its damage-per-second. (Turn Spores into an effective weapon, rather than being mostly a smoke screen.)
2. Restore/Add projectile spore as a weapon. The projectile deals instant damage in the area on impact, and leaves a spore cloud that deals minimal damage over time. (The new "rocket launcher" weapon rewards Lerks players for good aim.)
So the landing of a lerk can be less predetermined.
Currently when i land...I go through this internal conversation saying "No not there ..." mostly related to the fact that I don't want to land on the floor.
and also the lerk could swing out of nowhere do some damage and stick somewhere to the rafters.
I know thread is discussing other options but I am just trying to make the lerk feel more worth the money.
I have a longer lifecycle as a skulk and he is cheaper (FREE).
and i am pretty happy with the current flight model (I would really like it if i did not have to flap at all...but flapping is minimal)
Also this suggestion is hopefully fairly easy to try (copy walking code of skulk...keep lerk's slow walking speed).
We must be laser focused on these suggestions and tweaks due to time is ticking.
We must be laser focused on these suggestions and tweaks due to time is ticking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did exactly this a few builds ago :
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115372" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=115372</a>
1. Reduce the duration of Spores, but increase its damage-per-second. (Turn Spores into an effective weapon, rather than being mostly a smoke screen.)
2. Restore/Add projectile spore as a weapon. The projectile deals instant damage in the area on impact, and leaves a spore cloud that deals minimal damage over time. (The new "rocket launcher" weapon rewards Lerks players for good aim.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Why make the low-skill weapon more powerful? The entire problem with the class is it's designed to be played by and against low-skill players.
2) I like this because, like you said, it rewards good aim. That's better than rewarding them for having a functioning left click.
<!--quoteo(post=1900333:date=Feb 6 2012, 04:18 PM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ Feb 6 2012, 04:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900333"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A long time back I suggested the lerk have the same sticky wall code that the skulk had.
So the landing of a lerk can be less predetermined.
Currently when i land...I go through this internal conversation saying "No not there ..." mostly related to the fact that I don't want to land on the floor.
and also the lerk could swing out of nowhere do some damage and stick somewhere to the rafters.
I know thread is discussing other options but I am just trying to make the lerk feel more worth the money.
I have a longer lifecycle as a skulk and he is cheaper (FREE).
and i am pretty happy with the current flight model (I would really like it if i did not have to flap at all...but flapping is minimal)
Also this suggestion is hopefully fairly easy to try (copy walking code of skulk...keep lerk's slow walking speed).
We must be laser focused on these suggestions and tweaks due to time is ticking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see the value in this, to be honest. How many times do you want to land as lerk and you can't find a prop to sit on (like the pipes in 'ventilation' on summit)? How often do you land as a lerk anyway?
Why shouldn't wall-scaling be a unique trait of the skulk?
Adding more ways for lerks to sit still and get shot won't solve any of the problems I mentioned.
Also, wingflapping is the entire reason the lerk flight has scaling usefulness/skill-influence. If you always moved at the same speed (blinking fade) or always sped up at the same rate (charging onos) it simply wouldn't be as versatile. The only problem right now is you don't get to take advantage of that versatility against anything but LMGs.
Very much agreed. I think if at all possible a way to make this mechanic work balance wise should be sought after. Its just too fun and cool to watch. It gives the lurker something engaging to do in combat rather than just poke at extreme range, which gets old fast. Perhaps the energy usage of the cloud should be increased, but while 'crop dusting' the lurker should gain a large defensive bonus from ranged attacks (at least ranged attacks in close range like a shotgun blast).
The idea of a headbutt of long cooldown burst melee range attack is definitely interesting. Either way, the secondary spike attack should be removed. Its extremely boring and seems fairly pointless.
It's also useful for people with bigger ambitions, though!
Mostly my problem with spikes is the same that I've had since the flight model for lerks was drastically improved to the current one and that is that you can't spike and fly well no matter how good you are at the game because there is no way to maintain constant height while flying and you can't strafe in air. Thus the only way for you to do effective ranged damage to marines is to sit on the ground or in a fairly stationary position in a vent or on a ledge. This makes lerk, an incredibley fragile alien, a sitting duck for any marine that can aim at all.
it's not a bad system, especially since gliding and strafing lets you keep moving at the same time if you time your button presses well
it's the same for a jetpack marine but they have way less control over their movement...I think that part of the lerk is pretty fine to be honest
It needs to be viable for the lerk to attack and fly at the same time. The non-directional glide (hold space but no direction key, and it maintains altitude regardless of mouse pitch) is a good first-step.
I hate to be a total curmudgeon with this thread, but the lerk's flight not being cooperative with aiming is not a major problem. Even if you made it so that players have full air control with their strafes (so they can move left/right/forward/back/up/down while aiming at no penalty), all the lerk's weapons would still be bad and its survivability would be poor for something that costs 30-36 pres. With the new patch, it also runs out of adrenaline before it can kill anything worth killing.