Spawning immunity/blink instahit
Skie
Skulk Progenitor Join Date: 2003-10-18 Member: 21766Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
Skulk Progenitor Join Date: 2003-10-18 Member: 21766Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">What are your thoughts on these?</div>Alright, two topics in one.
1)
First, spawning. Or more specifically, the lag that area loading causes. Every time you spawn or teleport to a new area, there's a small delay, up to 500ms even on my beast of a computer, that I can't do anything. In that time the enemy, if well placed, gets one and almost a second hit on me. Mostly an issue when coming out of phase gates because that area is unlikely loaded for you when you step out. So obviously this is more of a marine problem.
What do you think of a short immunity when teleporting? Like just half a second, during which you can <b>not</b> shoot because you're still particle vapor and trying to get out of the gate. You could move though. Same could be tried for spawning from IPs and eggs.
2)
Getting to instahit a marine from blink. Seems super OP. Just in general, what are your thoughts on it? Mostly wanting input from those who actually play this game a bit competetively.
1)
First, spawning. Or more specifically, the lag that area loading causes. Every time you spawn or teleport to a new area, there's a small delay, up to 500ms even on my beast of a computer, that I can't do anything. In that time the enemy, if well placed, gets one and almost a second hit on me. Mostly an issue when coming out of phase gates because that area is unlikely loaded for you when you step out. So obviously this is more of a marine problem.
What do you think of a short immunity when teleporting? Like just half a second, during which you can <b>not</b> shoot because you're still particle vapor and trying to get out of the gate. You could move though. Same could be tried for spawning from IPs and eggs.
2)
Getting to instahit a marine from blink. Seems super OP. Just in general, what are your thoughts on it? Mostly wanting input from those who actually play this game a bit competetively.
Comments
Aye, giving temp immortality seems like a workaround - a bandaid fix.
making sure the place is all loaded up and ready when its time to spawn/teleport seems like a better alternative.
Does the game need to render a room on the other side of the map, at the receiving end, whenever you're close to something that can teleport you? Is that even possible?
There aren't a lot of good solutions that don't involve using NS1 blink, or separating invulnerability/invisibility aspect from the movement aspect, but here's the best I could come up with using the current mechanics:
First, all of the cooldowns/timers that prevent blink from firing should be removed. Blink should always be activatable, given that you have the energy. There should instead be a delay between when you exit blink and when you can swipe. When combined with momentum, this will add more skill to playing fade, as well as remove no-risk insta-hits. It wouldn't be perfect, especially against JPs and in close-quarters, but it would be better than what we have now.
That would certainly be an improvement. Invisibility is not a problem, but being completely invincible is. Not only balance wise but it's also an extremely frustrating mechanic to play against. Killing fades should be a matter of skill not how much energy he has left I think. Making fades very hard to kill is good but giving them a button that makes them invincible as long as they have energy seems too much.
This would also make it ok to give it a bit more health again.
The delay might also be good? Not sure about that one.
Link for the thread:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115631&st=40" target="_blank">Fade blink momentum</a>
Link from a game where it is being used:
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eNjayY_xkrg"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eNjayY_xkrg" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
It makes the fades more fun to play, and more NS1'ish.
It defintly makes the fades need to play more carefully, they have less time to be in the blink state
But they have a powerful momentum and air control to get around with, UWE tried to implement this feature, but they ran into the same problems as Yuuki first did.
It's working pretty great compared to the vanilla one, in vanilla momentum is only preserved when going directly up, or directly down, and the adrenaline drain is way too low when you have momentum to work with. The mod increases the drain the more you stay in the blink state, to encourage small blinks. But you can still do some escape blinks, and it works well against flamethrowers, make sure you have energy to escape and youre fine, if not, youre dead.
Hopefully UWE will implement this mod.
differences are
many eggs vs 2 ips
ips glow and sparkle and big neon sign saying 'bite me cos im about to spawn someone', while you can't tell which egg will spawn an alien
differences are
many eggs vs 2 ips
ips glow and sparkle and big neon sign saying 'bite me cos im about to spawn someone', while you can't tell which egg will spawn an alien<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would love to see glowies spawn the eggs instead of eggs appearing out of nowhere.
The way I imagine that would work:
Aliens have a spawnqueue like in NS1, it takes 6 second per alien(per hive) to spawn.
When an alien is spawning they will spectate the glowie randomly flying around the hive in third person.
Then the glowie lands on the ground and transforms into an egg and the player can spawn, kind of like drifters and structures.
That way we won't have hives filled with eggs, right clicking during the 6 seconds takes your spawn to another hive.
I would rather they show me an effect (swirling drain) while the world loads in the background.
Then pop me in.
The problem with the immunity is that it can be abused.
A skulk on the other side should get at least one hit in...If I swung a pipe at the other end of a teleporter and didn't hit you, then I would feel gyped.
The goal should be to close that gap between the loading you into the world before you can actually do something.
So yes the skulk might get a bite in, but the marine can get a shot off too.
They should have some effect, load the world in the background, when everything is ready then pop you are in the world.
Then pop me in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea
Maybe a short effect on your screen "warphole tunnel" like in Doctor Who or in Stargate. Your "camera" just takes the phasegate like it does now, only your model is invisible/invincible. The loading of the new room is now taking place while you are watching the tunnel animation and *pop* your good to go.
The effect should take a second? More? less?
Short Invincibility is the easiest and worst way to fix this.(at least for phasegates)
How about an energy ability for commanders that can pushback aliens(on phasegates and ips), and instead of telefrag an emp style energy drain of 100% if aliens stand too close to the center of a ip/pg?
Could always spawn with that nano shield ?
Plenty of games, even competitive ones, incorporate some form of spawn protection. It is helplessly frustrating. And as someone already said aliens already have a mild form of it: distraction and decoy
-invincible (cannot be hurt or interacted with)
-invisible (cannot be seen)
-position-immobile (cannot move out)
-attack-disabled (cannot attack)
-orientation-mobile (can rotate the view)
for the first 1~2 seconds after spawning?
So:
- aliens can't see you so aliens won't waste attacks on an invincible you
- you can't attack aliens while invincible and invisible
- you can't move out of the IP/PG while invincible and invisible
- you can acclimate, prepare and orient yourself (while the level loads) while invincible and invisible
Then if you want to have less surprises for aliens (why? :)
- have a visual "phasing in" effect in the game world while a marine is invincible and invisible
Now:
- both spawning marines and spawn-camping aliens are relatively prepared for one another
-invincible (cannot be hurt or interacted with)
-invisible (cannot be seen)
-position-immobile (cannot move out)
-attack-disabled (cannot attack)
-orientation-mobile (can rotate the view)
for the first 1~2 seconds after spawning?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, that sounds pretty good, but I'd leave the view movement out as well because the phasegate is a door-shaped 'gate', and you will be facing that specific direction. So basically only your camera would be moved there for a second before your entity is created.
This does raise interesting questions, such as what happens if the phase gate is destroyed while only your camera is there? Eaten by the void? Lost in time and space?
<!--quoteo(post=1898436:date=Feb 1 2012, 01:40 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 1 2012, 01:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898436"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nope. Sorry harimau, tremann's idea was better. Less issue laden, less to implement, adds a fun skill based mini game which also serves as spawn protection. I love it. Put in a sound cue countdown of sorts, and bam.. your skulk teammates explode!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh, how would it be harder to implement? I bet someone could knock it out in about 10 minutes. I don't know what's so issue-laden, except perhaps the unlocked view-orientation, and I recognise that, but it has both pros and cons. Anything else?
Also, I'm not really certain how telefragging is a skill-based mini-game. Skilled for who?
Certainly, it's a fair idea, it punishes spawn-camping; but this notion that it is a skill-based mini-game is quite strange, I must say.
Removing the delay between spawning and the actual image appearing on the marine's screen would be good though.
the issue is the unfair delay which leads to a scenario of "well if skulk made it to the ip unchallenged its gg" that should not be the case. eggs still randomly hatch around a hive while its under attack and as mentioned the randomness of the eggs still presents a slight form of protection. thats what were suggesting..<b> a slight protection against the unfair kill where a rine isnt given a chance to fight back. </b>
just like taking down a hive, if there are multiple skulks having a telefragging ip wont stop the onslaught: it just gives the rines the same fair chance of a last second fight. currently you're lucky if you only get two bites before your screen updates to show that youve spawned.
harimau: its skill based meta game as you'd watch multiple skulks chomping as the sound cue counts down or revs up and then you'd watch some back away - the ones that failed get hurt or die(?) and this leads to a meta game of timing which might be challenging if implemented correctly.<i> if skill wasnt involved, all thatd be required is whats currently implemented.. just hold down mouse1 and gg.</i>
It's hardly that simple. Marines running back to base to save it, beacon, mines around the IPs, turrets, even the comm, all have a chance at killing the "spawncamping" alien. If all those fail, I'm going to be blunt and say that you deserve to lose.
Spawn protection, even a more moderate solution like announced telefragging, introduces more problems than it solves.
Is this possible?
Approaching it a different way, though: Don't spawn the marine into the game world until the frame where their view has fully loaded. <b>Adding</b> a minor delay between spawning and arriving would be an easy way of doing it.
@ironhorse: I'd just hear the start of the sound and back off immediately. Since there's no chance of me getting the first hit in, why would I stay?
Spawn protection, even a more moderate solution like announced telefragging, introduces more problems than it solves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes but that exact scenario exists for alien hive as well, the alien in the hive (comm), hydras everywhere, whips, gorges, and faster than marine moving skulks running back to base with that "OUR HIVE IS DYING" notification all have a chance of killing the spawn camping marine.
the difference between the spawn killing for each side is that aliens have slight protection with anonymity of location through eggs, <u>giving them extra time for orientation / response</u>, with an ip its clear WHERE and WHEN the individual shall spawn - the rine never getting that same chance.
all that is being mentioned is leveling out the difference for balance sake. especially considering that technical bug (Delay) which exaggerates this issue. if nothing else its a temp fix.