I dont like nerfing the range. Especially to lower than the skulk bite range. It would make the knock almost useless. The idea is to keep the skulk further away. Regarding damage, it could be lowered.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1898641:date=Feb 1 2012, 06:35 PM:name=Karko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Karko @ Feb 1 2012, 06:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont like nerfing the range. Especially to lower than the skulk bite range. It would make the knock almost useless. The idea is to keep the skulk further away. Regarding damage, it could be lowered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So, you're suggesting that a marine that have good timing should never get bitten by any skulks? That totally screws up skulk vs rifle balance when both teams are good. The skulk should at least be able to get one bite into the marine, before he gets knocked away, probably to die. The knock would not be useless even if it was lowered to less than bite range, remember NS1 knife? It was smaller range, but not useless. The secret tactic is to walk towards the skulk and time it on impact when he is coming at you.
<!--quoteo(post=1898687:date=Feb 1 2012, 06:24 PM:name=TremanN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TremanN @ Feb 1 2012, 06:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898687"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You gotta admit that it is humorous that a marine can out-melee a skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's better is how people will try to rationalize it. Possibly because they haven't experienced "aiming with solid FPS" yet in this game..
<!--quoteo(post=1898695:date=Feb 1 2012, 07:26 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Feb 1 2012, 07:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898695"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What's better is how people will try to rationalize it. Possibly because they haven't experienced "aiming with solid FPS" yet in this game..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1898687:date=Feb 1 2012, 06:24 PM:name=TremanN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TremanN @ Feb 1 2012, 06:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898687"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You gotta admit that it is humorous that a marine can out-melee a skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
just wait til rifle-butt vs onos. oh the alien tears that will be had...
<!--quoteo(post=1898418:date=Jan 31 2012, 10:38 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jan 31 2012, 10:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898418"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lol yea rifle butt has been overpowered for a while.
Once we get exo/ha + welders the only thing im going to be using is rifle butt. Not so much the knockback as much as the dps. Its actually 35 damage which is almost half skulk hp.
*All this talk about rifle butt and i forgot to mention, UWE really needs to fix how melee targets are detected. I hate getting randomly rifle butted by marines not even facing my direction. Likewise goes for riflbutting a skulk in my face but hitting the rocks behind me or some other.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1898398:date=Jan 31 2012, 03:10 PM:name=BuzterOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BuzterOne @ Jan 31 2012, 03:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898398"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then explain how should i play it? When i play skulk i harras and destroy the extractors & w8 for my ambush kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6K7aKXKh3SQ"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6K7aKXKh3SQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center> For skulks to be powerful, they have to group up. Watch the first minute.
one issue could also be that skulks have (and/or used to have) rather low attack-feedback, so it is difficult to learn how close you should get before starting your first bite.
i actually think the range of bite and rifle-butt should be somewhat identical. you'll still have a chance to knock a skulk away having 10 health left as a marine, but it will be quite unreliable (preventing people from spamming it, making it a last resort and not an i-own-noobs-for-fun-attack).
oh and +1 for a damage-nerf. 15-20ish seems powerful enough imo, considering the rather low armor+health of skulks.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1898816:date=Feb 2 2012, 02:08 PM:name=Laosh'Ra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Laosh'Ra @ Feb 2 2012, 02:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898816"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->one issue could also be that skulks have (and/or used to have) rather low attack-feedback, so it is difficult to learn how close you should get before starting your first bite.
i actually think the range of bite and rifle-butt should be somewhat identical. you'll still have a chance to knock a skulk away having 10 health left as a marine, but it will be quite unreliable (preventing people from spamming it, making it a last resort and not an i-own-noobs-for-fun-attack).
oh and +1 for a damage-nerf. 15-20ish seems powerful enough imo, considering the rather low armor+health of skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would say 10 damage, especially because you knock midair skulks away(probably to die, since you can shoot at it while its stunned). Also, I checked the Lua files. The riflebut range is 1.5 atm, while bite is 1.0, I would change riflebut range to 0.9. Already did this for the gathers, seems I have to do an ENSL balance pack.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1898822:date=Feb 2 2012, 02:47 PM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Feb 2 2012, 02:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898822"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From a realistic perspective, it does make sense that riflebutt has a longer range than one's teeth. I would still make it a bit shorter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know about that, if you were in a fight with a skulk, I bet it would bite you before you would get the chance to riflebutt it ;P Enough about realism, this is a gameplay issue.
gorilla changelog: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reduced Rifle butt range from 1.5 meters to 1 meter (now same as Skulk bite)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> exactly what i wanted for range (and much closer to your desired 0.9 :) ). still no damage nerf, but i guess its okay not to take too drastic actions during balancing.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2012
Wanted to bump this as the damage of the riflebut is still too high. 35 damage against a skulk is devasting, especially since the skulk gets knocked back and lose control for short time(sitting duck). I would like to see the skulk maintain movement control to some extend when getting riflebutted. The damage should be considerably lowered, as right now vanilla marine vs vanilla skulk almost have the same capabilities in melee range in terms of damage, but the marine knocks back the skulk with his melee attack. And of course, marines can shoot, skulks can't. The damage should be lowered to 10, due to the knockback on skulks(basic unit vs basic unit imbalance), and usefulness of riflebut in general.
IMO riflebutt should be removed, as the axe fills that role fine. Marines shouldnt be rewarded for missing their entire clip with an ability that can beat out a skulks bite in melee. Let that fall to the axe.
Comments
So, you're suggesting that a marine that have good timing should never get bitten by any skulks?
That totally screws up skulk vs rifle balance when both teams are good.
The skulk should at least be able to get one bite into the marine, before he gets knocked away, probably to die.
The knock would not be useless even if it was lowered to less than bite range, remember NS1 knife? It was smaller range, but not useless.
The secret tactic is to walk towards the skulk and time it on impact when he is coming at you.
What's better is how people will try to rationalize it. Possibly because they haven't experienced "aiming with solid FPS" yet in this game..
that's my go to excuse for dying every time.
just wait til rifle-butt vs onos. oh the alien tears that will be had...
Once we get exo/ha + welders the only thing im going to be using is rifle butt.
Not so much the knockback as much as the dps. Its actually 35 damage which is almost half skulk hp.
*All this talk about rifle butt and i forgot to mention, UWE really needs to fix how melee targets are detected. I hate getting randomly rifle butted by marines not even facing my direction. Likewise goes for riflbutting a skulk in my face but hitting the rocks behind me or some other.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfMYspR1_7w" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfMYspR1_7w</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
dont make me post all the vids of me being riflebutted by you
When i play skulk i harras and destroy the extractors & w8 for my ambush kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6K7aKXKh3SQ"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6K7aKXKh3SQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
For skulks to be powerful, they have to group up.
Watch the first minute.
i actually think the range of bite and rifle-butt should be somewhat identical. you'll still have a chance to knock a skulk away having 10 health left as a marine, but it will be quite unreliable (preventing people from spamming it, making it a last resort and not an i-own-noobs-for-fun-attack).
oh and +1 for a damage-nerf. 15-20ish seems powerful enough imo, considering the rather low armor+health of skulks.
i actually think the range of bite and rifle-butt should be somewhat identical. you'll still have a chance to knock a skulk away having 10 health left as a marine, but it will be quite unreliable (preventing people from spamming it, making it a last resort and not an i-own-noobs-for-fun-attack).
oh and +1 for a damage-nerf. 15-20ish seems powerful enough imo, considering the rather low armor+health of skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would say 10 damage, especially because you knock midair skulks away(probably to die, since you can shoot at it while its stunned).
Also, I checked the Lua files.
The riflebut range is 1.5 atm, while bite is 1.0, I would change riflebut range to 0.9.
Already did this for the gathers, seems I have to do an ENSL balance pack.
I don't know about that, if you were in a fight with a skulk, I bet it would bite you before you would get the chance to riflebutt it ;P
Enough about realism, this is a gameplay issue.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reduced Rifle butt range from 1.5 meters to 1 meter (now same as Skulk bite)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
exactly what i wanted for range (and much closer to your desired 0.9 :) ). still no damage nerf, but i guess its okay not to take too drastic actions during balancing.
35 damage against a skulk is devasting, especially since the skulk gets knocked back and lose control for short time(sitting duck).
I would like to see the skulk maintain movement control to some extend when getting riflebutted.
The damage should be considerably lowered, as right now vanilla marine vs vanilla skulk almost have the same capabilities in melee range in terms of damage, but the marine knocks back the skulk with his melee attack. And of course, marines can shoot, skulks can't.
The damage should be lowered to 10, due to the knockback on skulks(basic unit vs basic unit imbalance), and usefulness of riflebut in general.