Let's clear up something about Nodes right now
Techercizer
7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
<div class="IPBDescription">The Power System is getting a bad rap</div>I've been reading for quite some time now a plethora of opinions that describe power conflict as boring or tedious, and I've lost track of the number of times I've read people confidently expressing their belief that nobody enjoys staring at a socket and holding a button as a main gameplay element.
It's about time I put a stop to this. I, for one, do enjoy staring at a socket and holding a button.
As a Marine, power sockets are all about opening up opportunities for your team and increasing your territory. I have as much fun fixing a power node back up to 100% as I do coming in and blasting skulks off of it, and the tension of deploying a node on your own is a really fun part of the game for me. Putting up a node is a gift to your com and a giant finger to the kharaa, and in the end, aren't those two things what being a Frontiersman is all about? That and flamethrowers, I mean.
As Kharaa, sockets are just as fun. I remember the old days, before marines had to build sockets, skulks would run rampant through the map. We'd frantically cut the power as the Marines started setting up and staking out territory, so eating the map was a race against time. Chomping on Heliport or DC (or even FC, if you really wanted to take risks) was a really fun, tense battle. Would you eat the node before they showed up? Would you be able to take them out if they did? Are they even sending someone? Was that a flicker of orange you saw over at the door? You never knew the answer to these questions, no matter how many games you played.
Am I the only one here who feels like this? I haven't seen anyone supporting the current socket system here for a long, long time.
It's about time I put a stop to this. I, for one, do enjoy staring at a socket and holding a button.
As a Marine, power sockets are all about opening up opportunities for your team and increasing your territory. I have as much fun fixing a power node back up to 100% as I do coming in and blasting skulks off of it, and the tension of deploying a node on your own is a really fun part of the game for me. Putting up a node is a gift to your com and a giant finger to the kharaa, and in the end, aren't those two things what being a Frontiersman is all about? That and flamethrowers, I mean.
As Kharaa, sockets are just as fun. I remember the old days, before marines had to build sockets, skulks would run rampant through the map. We'd frantically cut the power as the Marines started setting up and staking out territory, so eating the map was a race against time. Chomping on Heliport or DC (or even FC, if you really wanted to take risks) was a really fun, tense battle. Would you eat the node before they showed up? Would you be able to take them out if they did? Are they even sending someone? Was that a flicker of orange you saw over at the door? You never knew the answer to these questions, no matter how many games you played.
Am I the only one here who feels like this? I haven't seen anyone supporting the current socket system here for a long, long time.
Comments
Seconded. It also gave Skulk rushes a downside. If you rushed Marine Start and somehow <i>died</i>, Marines would be free and clear to drop and expand after they repelled you. You could either get a tenuous grasp on DC and Heli or a firm hold on DC/Heli and FC/Vent. Either way, you threatened alien hive locations and gained a starting advantage for your tenacity.
other than that, im actually quite happy with the powernodes as they are and i think this system should remain a part of the game.
Is sentry spam fixed? Is it not possible to turtle anymore?
Why not work on those problems instead of adding another layer? While it has some impact on the problems, it doesnt solve it and only causes bigger new ones.
I would suggest we get rid of powernodes in the current form.
We got techpoints - the only places you can build a base. (so starting positions can be balanced better, and marines cant relocate into crazy places)
While marines can weld their commandstation, they cant drop a backup in their base, also CCs are relative big in ns2 => provide good cover to dance around for aliens...
Also aliens can still force marines to retreat by attacking the commandstation or tech buildings. (a lot more fun than attacking a crappy powernode)
So small groups or single aliens can not as easily make a game winning move, a big coordinated attack might focus more on getting either the ips or the CC down - while smaller ones might try to deny or delay upgrades => tres. (by attacking structures like the armory proto etc.)
Without powernodes there is still LOTS of stuff that you can/have to attack as alien.
Phasegates can be balanced by buildtime/tres costs, health. (also they dont have telefrag and are super easy to block, it was never to easy to get rid of phasegates in the ns universe)
So the only thing left that might a problem are sentrys.
Turret factories or backup powernodes had the problem you could spam them, and you could place them in a way so they were very hard to reach. How can we fix this? Either keep the powernode system for this, but call it something like tactical sensor enhancement system something - so its kinda a turret factory with a fixed position.
Or we think of other ways to prevent spam... have limited slots for sentrys, that can be upgraded for more => impact on tres => delays other tech. (this can be either global, or in combination with the first idea -limited to a specific node => so upgrades to increase number of possible sentrys, increase range where you can place sentrys etc. only change for this node)
Many more possibilitys.
So now that powernodes are gone, we dont need to make beacon a questionable mechanic by allowing marines to deny a beacon. And start fixing a few other problems...
We all know you're not a fan of nodes, Koruyo. Maybe you're right that we'd be better without it, maybe not; that's a discussion for another thread. I'm just trying to see how many people feel like they're worth keeping.
Game Starts, your team has a comm, one player announces they are perma-gorging, you now have 5 skulks on the map. What do they do?
Let's see their options currently...
Find marines, and kill them. When marines are dead find them again, back where they spawn. Proceed to attack marines and where they spawn until they are dead.
That is it. For the first few minutes of the game the aliens, with the exception of gorge and com, have nothing to do but go marine hunting. I agree the old system actually gave a choice, go out marine hunting, or attack power nodes. Now it's just so boring for the first few minutes as skulk, because there is no choice whatsoever, it's attack the marines or sit on your ass twidling your thumbs.
No choice makes for repetitive and boring gameplay, and why we see a skulk rush at base every game without fail.
My big issue with the power system though is really the imbalance between the alien power requirements and the marine power requirements, but that's another thread altogether.
Game Starts, your team has a comm, one player announces they are perma-gorging, you now have 5 skulks on the map. What do they do?
Let's see their options currently...
Find marines, and kill them. When marines are dead find them again, back where they spawn. Proceed to attack marines and where they spawn until they are dead.
That is it. For the first few minutes of the game the aliens, with the exception of gorge and com, have nothing to do but go marine hunting. I agree the old system actually gave a choice, go out marine hunting, or attack power nodes. Now it's just so boring for the first few minutes as skulk, because there is no choice whatsoever, it's attack the marines or sit on your ass twidling your thumbs.
No choice makes for repetitive and boring gameplay, and why we see a skulk rush at base every game without fail.
My big issue with the power system though is really the imbalance between the alien power requirements and the marine power requirements, but that's another thread altogether.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are there suddently no marine RTs anymore?
Is there no marine base with tech and supply buildings anymore?
Dont you have to protect RTs anymore?
Dont you have to protect your base and tech anymore?
Dont you have to prepare for a hive drop anymore?
Well yes ns2 is to a big part fps, and yes the main goal is to frag enemy players but also to get and deny resources (because resources => more tech => more power to win the game)
Doesnt your actions as a team, force reactions from the other team? (so depending on what is going on, both teams have to act and react - in their own objective based minigame, do i attack X so Y might happen? If Y happens can't i now do X because of that? etc)
I dont understand.
Try defending the power node in MS. It works wonders.
Landmines...not just for decoration.
Is there no marine base with tech and supply buildings anymore?
Dont you have to protect RTs anymore?
Dont you have to protect your base and tech anymore?
Dont you have to prepare for a hive drop anymore?
Well yes ns2 is to a big part fps, and yes the main goal is to frag enemy players but also to get and deny resources (because resources => more tech => more power to win the game)
Doesnt your actions as a team, force reactions from the other team? (so depending on what is going on, both teams have to act and react - in their own objective based minigame, do i attack X so Y might happen? If Y happens can't i now do X because of that? etc)
I dont understand.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At game start, in the first few minutes, there is nothing, there are marines building in spawn, and marines looking to cap RT's, when you've killed the scouting marines, what next? Onto spawn and rape the base and marines as they spawn, then as marines haven't yet got out of base, or their 1st rts were taken down, it's just rush, rush, rush..
We need something for skulks to do that benefits the team early game which gives them a viable alternative to just rushing the marines to death, currently that is the only gameplay option at the start, and if the marines can't hold you off, or they spent 20 secs deciding who was going to com, then they are trapped forever more in their base until the CC is finally destroyed.
As a skulk, I'd just like to have more options than scout loose marines to find the base then rush it, but currently that is the only tactic in use on the alien team. What counter to that is there? Sure if the marines can shoot and kill you, then it's ok, but the bigger the teams get, the greater the alien superiority in the first few minutes, and it always results in CC rushes, just the bigger the alien team, the quicker the cc rush is finished. That IS denial of resources, pin them back in their own base by continually rushing it.
This is also required because of the ease which the alien power chain can be broken. Letting marines loose around the map early game means you can lose too many harvesters through broken cyst chains. So the only real tactic for every scenario you have mentioned is kill rines as fast as possible and pin them in base.
That is not choice, and there is no real counter. Obviously I'm talking about pub games, in scrims you know who the commander is, and generally the marines can all shoot.
It depends what you like to do - personally, I find staring at a power node while I press the 'e' key quite boring, but I'm sure many might enjoy that kind of thing. Marines have more to do in base at the start of the game than skulks, that needs to be addressed really.
Funny story: NS1 didn't have a powergrid, yet this wasn't a problem.
Classic case of perceiving an issue but identifying the wrong source.
Classic case of perceiving an issue but identifying the wrong source.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL
You missed my point entirely, let me clarify.
NS1 didn't have an alien com.
NS1 gorges could build whatever structure wherever they wanted subject to resources.
It's the changes to aliens that have forced the skulks into no more than hunting machines. Currently powernodes are not in use until marines power them. Skulks are redundant early game in NS2 whereas in NS1 they had a job protecting gorges, because the gorge was fragile and yet also vital for team.
I am saying the powernodes should be in play at the start, so skulks have something to do now they no longer need to protect their gorges in the same way, as they are not as valuable to the team. I am saying the power grid concept needs to actually be used more in the marine team.
Soul, its just not really true what you are saying, or at least the problems you have, have nothing todo with powernodes. (this topic)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Topic title: Let's clear up something about Nodes right now, The Power System is getting a bad rap<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Problem is not powernodes, the Answer is powernodes!!!
Making them active at the start of a game gives the skulk something to do other than attack the CC all the time. This is a thread in support of powernodes. I am supporting more use of powernodes. This is exactly what this thread is about...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let's clear up something about Nodes right now, The Power System is getting a bad rap<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am saying it needs to be used more, not knocked or removed.
I guess if you still can't see my point and why it's relevant I'll just give up :P
Everywhere else you only have to care about killing the RTs. RT pressure always > powernodes, if the powernode is not in marinebase or a bigger forward base.
You missed my point entirely, let me clarify.
NS1 didn't have an alien com.
NS1 gorges could build whatever structure wherever they wanted subject to resources.
It's the changes to aliens that have forced the skulks into no more than hunting machines. Currently powernodes are not in use until marines power them. Skulks are redundant early game in NS2 whereas in NS1 they had a job protecting gorges, because the gorge was fragile and yet also vital for team.
I am saying the powernodes should be in play at the start, so skulks have something to do now they no longer need to protect their gorges in the same way, as they are not as valuable to the team. I am saying the power grid concept needs to actually be used more in the marine team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah... no. This is a load of bull.
Just because the aliens don't use gorges for building vital structures anymore, doesn't mean the alien team can now play all-out offense in the early stages of the game. If anything, since the aliens are now short one player (comm) at the start of the round, they should have to play more defensively in order to avoid overextending themselves and leaving their harvesters wide open for attack. The reason why we're not seeing this at the moment has nothing to do with the introduction of the alien comm or any changes to the powergrid system, and everything to do with low client/server performance and ridiculous alien spawn rates.
As for "improving" the powergrid, it's pretty clear that something has to be done because the current implementation isn't working out at all. There are three ways too look at it:
1. The rose tinted glasses: It's a brilliant idea! None of the arguments against it mean a damn and I'm sure if UWE just puts their minds to it, they'll figure out a way to add lots more functionality and make it super-fantastic!
2. The realist: I don't know man, I see a lot of potential issues with this power grid system. I just don't see what value it adds to the game either. Maybe they have a good plan for making it good though, I guess we'll wait and see what they do.
2. The dogged pessimist: Make the game more reliant on the power grid system you say? Yeah, go ahead, dig your own hole a little deeper why don't you.
While power nodes bring a neat element of fragility to the marine base, I think they can be offset by giving the marines more turtle power without invoking sentries.
Idea:
1) Doors start the game in an open position, so they do not constrict movement in any way. I don't mean they automatically open/close, I mean they're stuck open until modified.
2) The Marine commander gains the ability to lock doors when they are <b>powered from either side</b>. That means that doors may receive power from multiple nodes, of which only one needs to be built in order for the marine commander to control it.
3) Also, remove the door's automatic open/close behavior when Marines get close. If it's unlocked, it's open. If it's locked, it's closed but can be opened by a marine only with +use.
4) Onos can smash as per original plan, forcing the comm to <b>update their defense with sentries in the late game</b>.
I think this might also shift the focus of fades to fighting where the marines choose to establish their front-lines, and encourage skulks to do more vent play. Lerk remains very flexible throughout.
the answer is ...yes I did.
I liked the lights going out because I made it so.
I liked the lights coming on because I made it so.
Is it a fun mechanic...yes
Is it fun for everyone...apparently not
Can everyone be satisfied...no
Have a nice day.
Fact: That's not a fact, and opinions like these posted as blanket statements are the reason I made this thread. I enjoy killing and rebuilding power nodes, and I'd rather create a weak point by cutting out Marine ability to expand/reinforce than take out 10 Tres worth of rebuildable equipment.
Opinion: You don't know what facts are.
Also it would make the entire map pitch black or dark red again.
Also it would make the entire map pitch black or dark red again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, and I'm not saying that the current power implementation is perfect, or that it's even worth keeping in the long run. All I'm saying is that it's fun, and that I wanted to know if I was the only one who thought that. Some other people have said they do; not a lot, but now I know I'm not the only one on the forums who doesn't find node chomping/building tedious or boring.
did you never play NS2 before they changed how powernodes start?? most skulks went around (including myself) and killed every room of powernodes that we could.
and sorry, fanatic, i'm going with the PT Scardybob and soul rider on this one: its imbalance caused by skulks having literally no game play choice besides guard a gorge or rush marine spawn like a kamakazie. YES close spawns exaggerate this, YES spawn rates exaggerate this, but <u><b>NO</b></u> it has absolutely nothing to do with performance. not even close. 30 fps or 200 fps makes no difference in the choice to stay in spawn and stare at the wall or go rush marine spawn.
LOL tech, +1 correcting elodea on that and this thread. add me to the list of people who enjoy the powergrid mechanic and destroying nodes. (fun as a skulk.. marines should get 3rd person while repairing though)
I play ns2 since the engine test. Special Edition buyer since the first day :)
Yeah i know that ppl did this in public, and then wondered why they couldnt keep their 2nd hives... some ppl got distracted and focused on this useless task instead denying resources to the enemy team. (some even found this more enjoying than defending a hive rush...)
Please dont tell me that ppl also think killing powernodes > killing an rt in a room. (rts are weaker, usually provide cover, and cost Tres to rebuild)
Other ppl killed ventilation and computer lab rts instead(but its hard, if half of your team eats useless powernodes), and tried to prevent that marines are even possible to think about resources => delay GLs as long as possible. (then easymode win with op fades)