ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
So I find that onos + cara, regen, and frenzy with a gorge healing you from behind is pretty effective. I think the issue is that people are expecting to be able to solo marine start as onos, which wasn't the case in NS1, and shouldn't be so in NS2. 6+ marines focusing their fire on an onos should be able to kill it or it would simply be very op.
Vladimir Van VodkaSexy BeastJoin Date: 2010-07-30Member: 73364Members, Reinforced - Shadow
edited February 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1899532:date=Feb 4 2012, 10:01 AM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Feb 4 2012, 10:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899532"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The gore works great when your with your buddies, marines are so helpless splayed out on the ground. I dont think the onos should be going for kills but rather setting up the other life forms for kills and soaking up damage. Also, what does his second attack do (the smash)? Does it disable turrets or stun marines? Also, I really only noticed the hit detection on marines that have been knocked flat (it seemed impossible to hit them as onos!) and while the hitbox was rather small you attacked fast enough that it wasnt too frustrating.
However I think its more fun having onos in-game from the marine perspective. Nothing quite like walking down a hallway and suddenly hearing *STOMP STOMP STOMP* and feeling the floor shake. Quite an atmospheric OH SHI-! moment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
or hearing *STOMP.... STOMP..... STOMP..... STOMP* then <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>BAM</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> AN ONOS APPEARS RIGHT IN YOUR FACE OUT OF THIN AIR.
<!--quoteo(post=1899457:date=Feb 4 2012, 03:24 AM:name=Vladimir Van Vodka)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vladimir Van Vodka @ Feb 4 2012, 03:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899457"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I take it ALL back, onos is AMAZING.
carapace + regen + cloak.
turn invisible, hold shift key, monkey crawl at a snail's pace into a marine trafficked hallway while 100% invisible, wait for a lone marine to come running through unaware, when he tries to pass through you, uncloak automatically with gore and <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>BAM</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> ASSRAPE
I couldn't stop f***ing laughing my ass off in real life and obviously I blissfully shared all my excitement over the microphone to my team's expense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1899464:date=Feb 4 2012, 01:07 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Feb 4 2012, 01:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899464"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Admittedly I haven't played a LOT since the patch, but the thing I kept noticing is that players misunderstand the onos (like most of the 'tech' in this game). When your team is ready to crush some stuff and extend your advantage (and you must be at an advantage if you're on 3 hives and can afford 75 res for a lifeform), you get AN onos, or A COUPLE of them. You support them with various other lifeforms (swarm bilebombing gorges, fades with frenzy, lerks gassing, skulks biting etc).
The map architectures (tons of tiny hallways and props to bump into) should be enough to tell you that the onos isn't to be used in big numbers, and has a very specific role. Unfortunately what I saw in the few games I played was people going "LOL ONOS RUSH!!!!!!!11" Of course, they all want to try out the new content, but I think the power of the class will show through when it starts to be used properly (as a big hefty battering ram, like the ultralisk in starcraft).
It's also silly not having a stun ability (or some equivalent), and the current implementation of charge (speeds up over time instead of being triggered) is a design nightmare with how cluttered all the maps are (and will always be). I'd really like to see a triggered charge with a hefty adrenaline cost, so we can get some skill-indexed control over how that part of the class plays.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why UWE 'NEED' to sort out commander/player interaction/UI/etc.. A weaker team playing as a team is stronger than one with loads of upgrades running round like headless chickens.
I hope pheromones and marine waypoints add 'focus' to the strategy and tactics of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1899301:date=Feb 3 2012, 05:06 PM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 3 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899301"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also onos with cara has way less hp and armor than NS1 onos without ups.
NS1 onos with no ups: 950HP and 600AP NS2 onos with cara: 600HP and 550ap (or 600)
That is a hughe difference if the dmg of SG/LMG are the same as in NS1.
So 3 LMG rines with weapons 0 need only 3s to push out 1500 DMG and a base onos has 1400HP against normal DMG.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats kinda false because kOnosHideArmor = 4
Every attack is reduced by 4dmg, before anything else.
Every attack is reduced by 4dmg, before anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh that is nice to know! Ty!
So got the DMG reduced by 4 if armor is affected? If yes 10 N-DMG would deal 3 DMG to Armor. But because of the 0.7 multiplier can it be that 3 DMG go direct to the HP, and the 7 DMG that go to armor got reduced by 4 and divided by 2, resulting in only 1 AP loss. So the Onos runs faster out of HP even if he has still armor.
If the DMG reduction is before the 0.7 multiplier it is less extreme (-1AP and -1HP per 10 N-DMG).
And with 0HP you are death, even if you have armor normaly.
IMHO he is PERFECT. 2 hits and that rine is dead,you just don't know how to use him. What you don't do in run in like a moron he's not a tank hes the backbone of an attack. Notice I said BACKBONE.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Onos stomp doesn't do anything against marines as in NS1. It should probably do something (but don't want to glue them to ground)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you don't want to glue marines on the ground then why put it on the primary attack, whyyyy ???
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1899715:date=Feb 4 2012, 10:54 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Feb 4 2012, 10:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899715"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you don't want to glue marines on the ground then why put it on the primary attack, whyyyy ???<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Haha yeah, that struck me as pretty nonsensical as well.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
whats the stat difference again from NS1 to NS2 for the onos? its like a 200 hp difference, right? someone posted it. that could definitely be the reason?
<!--quoteo(post=1899715:date=Feb 4 2012, 09:54 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Feb 4 2012, 09:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899715"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you don't want to glue marines on the ground then why put it on the primary attack, whyyyy ???<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We are actually looking at changing the stomp to be the secondary attack, rather then the primary. So, Gore would be weapon 1 primary, and Smash would be weapon 2 primary, with Stomp as secondary for both.
We also have plans to have marines be affected by the Stomp in some way, as well, it just won't be the NS1 style of being locked to the ground unable to move, which was very frustrating.
<!--quoteo(post=1900096:date=Feb 6 2012, 07:39 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Feb 6 2012, 07:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900096"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We are actually looking at changing the stomp to be the secondary attack, rather then the primary. So, Gore would be weapon 1 primary, and Smash would be weapon 2 primary, with Stomp as secondary for both.
We also have plans to have marines be affected by the Stomp in some way, as well, it just won't be the NS1 style of being locked to the ground unable to move, which was very frustrating.
<!--quoteo(post=1900096:date=Feb 6 2012, 07:39 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Feb 6 2012, 07:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900096"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We are actually looking at changing the stomp to be the secondary attack, rather then the primary. So, Gore would be weapon 1 primary, and Smash would be weapon 2 primary, with Stomp as secondary for both.
We also have plans to have marines be affected by the Stomp in some way, as well, it just won't be the NS1 style of being locked to the ground unable to move, which was very frustrating.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think Yuuki meant Gore, which locks marines to the ground, rendering them unable to move. Why exactly was that added if you consider it frustrating?
<!--quoteo(post=1900097:date=Feb 6 2012, 07:49 AM:name=Wolpertinger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wolpertinger @ Feb 6 2012, 07:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900097"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Make it disable the hud for a few seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1900170:date=Feb 6 2012, 01:52 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 6 2012, 01:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900170"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Send marines up into the air, about half of jump height, and also disrupt reloads.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd prefer something that isn't plain annoying on the receiving end.
In HL1/NS1 this was a button which switched BACK to your last weapon. So if i selected shotgun then pistol then pushed lastinv (usually q) it would go to shotgun. push it again and it would swap back to pistol.
With all these 2 slot alien weapons I really miss this feature.
Sorry I realize this comment is completely off track but the thought came on the statement of separating gore and smash. And I thought 'well i'll just press q' ....but i can't
<!--quoteo(post=1900301:date=Feb 6 2012, 08:00 PM:name=Raza.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raza. @ Feb 6 2012, 08:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900301"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think Yuuki meant Gore, which locks marines to the ground, rendering them unable to move. Why exactly was that added if you consider it frustrating?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly, the logic behind this looks VERY alien to me :)
<!--quoteo(post=1900301:date=Feb 6 2012, 07:00 PM:name=Raza.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raza. @ Feb 6 2012, 07:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900301"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think Yuuki meant Gore, which locks marines to the ground, rendering them unable to move. Why exactly was that added if you consider it frustrating?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it is different. The stomp in NS1 just meant that the marine just stops dead in their place, and can't move. That feels like a bug, standing there, with no change other then suddenly just unable to move. However, with Gore, you get hit and see your view model hands flailing around, while you fly through the air, and your view height drops to the ground, etc. While it serves the same purpose as a stun, it feels less like a bug, and is less frustrating because there is more visual stimuli to keep it interesting and inform you what is happening.
The first time I was gored I was quite surprised, like "what the flip is going on here?!", I didn't understood. I found it quite funny because it was new, but I'm not sure it will age well, I've been gored only a few times so I can't say for sure.
More generally I found this well said :
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems reasonable to assume that in any competitive activity, in order to create a feeling of having fun, it is essential that the player feels he has a "fighting chance". One doesn't necessarily have to win, or even be any good, but the player has to believe that he had a chance to begin with. Conversely, believing that it was hopeless to begin with, that no matter what your actions were during the activity you would still end up losing in the end, is very frustrating for the player, and will likely make him avoid the activity in the future.
From that point of view, any gameplay mechanic that removes player control, that put the player into a situation where his actions don't have any influence over his performance in the activity, should be anathema for any game developer that wants to create a successful multiplayer game. There are many degrees of this of course, with the scale moving from gameplay mechanics which only slightly inhibit the player, to gameplay mechanics which render him completely helpless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1900369:date=Feb 6 2012, 09:53 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Feb 6 2012, 09:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900369"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From that point of view, any gameplay mechanic that removes player control, that put the player into a situation where his actions don't have any influence over his performance in the activity, should be anathema for any game developer that wants to create a successful multiplayer game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Tell that to Valve, with L4D.
<!--quoteo(post=1900356:date=Feb 6 2012, 10:27 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Feb 6 2012, 10:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, it is different. The stomp in NS1 just meant that the marine just stops dead in their place, and can't move. That feels like a bug, standing there, with no change other then suddenly just unable to move. However, with Gore, you get hit and see your view model hands flailing around, while you fly through the air, and your view height drops to the ground, etc. While it serves the same purpose as a stun, it feels less like a bug, and is less frustrating because there is more visual stimuli to keep it interesting and inform you what is happening.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't see the difference. The visual appeal is going to wear of _very_ fast, leaving you only with the feeling of helplessness. If anything this is worse than stomp in NS1, because there you at least had a chance to escape if your teammates scared away the onos. And you also didn't have to reorientate yourself. Now, since it is bound to a melee attack, death is almost guaranteed once you've been hit.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tell that to Valve, with L4D.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I remember one of the goals for NS2 was to make it 'the best competitive game since Starcraft' (I can't find Flayra's exact quote, but something like that). Features that take away control from players are generally not suited for competitive play. In my opinion, stuns and similar effects belong into pure RTS games and have no place in an FPS.
I, for one, liked the NS1 stomp and would like to see it reinstated with a knockdown visual effect and the building disabling we have now. I have no problem with the most expensive unit in the game whose role is "Disruptor" having a short cc.
The move of the 'stun' ability from stomp to gore changes it from a spammable AoE stun to a single target melee stun. That's a really big nerf in the stun ability. When you also consider that exo-marines will likely be immune to the gore-stun, it is plain to see that the onos stun ability has been severely diminished from the old stomp stun-wave. I remember Onos in NS1 stunning 3-4 heavies constrained in the many narrow hallways in NS1 maps. Now that is pretty ridiculous.
Stunning one marine with a Onos melee attack seems pretty damn acceptable.
<!--quoteo(post=1900370:date=Feb 6 2012, 04:57 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Feb 6 2012, 04:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900370"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tell that to Valve, with L4D.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In L4D your perspective changes to 3rd person, which makes everything all the more frightening (re: immersion). Also, as a game-play mechanic this immediately alerts the player that they are no longer in control - this implementation also helps minimize the frustration feeling and replaces it with a helplessness feeling. If I could <i>see</i> my marine get rag-dolled 5 meters, it would be awesome. I could also see the greatness that is the Onos, and be afraid.. very afraid.
It's problem is clipping map features that slow his momentum ability and team players blocking escape. He should just run over skulks and gorges and lerks they are small lifeforms that should not block him ever.
Also bring back Devor. It was his best feature that truly made marines fear him.
Just don't punish the marine with waiting in the belly. Add the marine to the IP spawn que immedialty. His team mates can rescue him before the IP spawns him.
And punish the onos for the devor instant kill by making him run slower or he can't stomp or something. There should be a draw back.
Nobody ever said Fungal Growth or Stasis don't belong in Starcraft 1/2 because they 'take away player control'
Even though NS2 is an FPS game, it's also an RTS game. That means certain liberties get to be taken with dogmatic ideas like "OH NO DON'T REMOVE PLAYER CONTROL" - if I paid the pres to be an onos and you don't have a jetpack or heavy armor on, I will stun and smash you and that is my right.
This isn't like the Sandman or Natascha in TF2 where someone can waddle out and use it on you at any point in the game at negligible cost to their overall effectiveness. The onos is a very polarized character, with distinct strengths and weaknesses.
If you think getting stunned by an onos isn't fun, try spending twice the cost of a flamethrower to be an upgraded fade, and then getting neutered completely by that flamethrower with barely any aim from the marine :)
<!--quoteo(post=1900370:date=Feb 6 2012, 09:57 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Feb 6 2012, 09:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900370"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tell that to Valve, with L4D.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would argue Left 4 Dead is successful in spite of the stun mechanic, rather than because of it. Team Fortress 2 is much more competitively focused game and didn't feature any stuns until they added the Sandman, a baseball bat that fires a ball that stuns players. The Sandman is also universally reviled in the Team Fortress 2 community. Thankfully no one uses it, so it isn't a major issue.
Comments
Also, I really only noticed the hit detection on marines that have been knocked flat (it seemed impossible to hit them as onos!) and while the hitbox was rather small you attacked fast enough that it wasnt too frustrating.
However I think its more fun having onos in-game from the marine perspective. Nothing quite like walking down a hallway and suddenly hearing *STOMP STOMP STOMP* and feeling the floor shake. Quite an atmospheric OH SHI-! moment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
or hearing *STOMP.... STOMP..... STOMP..... STOMP* then <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>BAM</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> AN ONOS APPEARS RIGHT IN YOUR FACE OUT OF THIN AIR.
<!--quoteo(post=1899457:date=Feb 4 2012, 03:24 AM:name=Vladimir Van Vodka)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vladimir Van Vodka @ Feb 4 2012, 03:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899457"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I take it ALL back, onos is AMAZING.
carapace + regen + cloak.
turn invisible, hold shift key, monkey crawl at a snail's pace into a marine trafficked hallway while 100% invisible, wait for a lone marine to come running through unaware, when he tries to pass through you, uncloak automatically with gore and <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>BAM</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> ASSRAPE
I couldn't stop f***ing laughing my ass off in real life and obviously I blissfully shared all my excitement over the microphone to my team's expense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The map architectures (tons of tiny hallways and props to bump into) should be enough to tell you that the onos isn't to be used in big numbers, and has a very specific role. Unfortunately what I saw in the few games I played was people going "LOL ONOS RUSH!!!!!!!11" Of course, they all want to try out the new content, but I think the power of the class will show through when it starts to be used properly (as a big hefty battering ram, like the ultralisk in starcraft).
It's also silly not having a stun ability (or some equivalent), and the current implementation of charge (speeds up over time instead of being triggered) is a design nightmare with how cluttered all the maps are (and will always be). I'd really like to see a triggered charge with a hefty adrenaline cost, so we can get some skill-indexed control over how that part of the class plays.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why UWE 'NEED' to sort out commander/player interaction/UI/etc.. A weaker team playing as a team is stronger than one with loads of upgrades running round like headless chickens.
I hope pheromones and marine waypoints add 'focus' to the strategy and tactics of the game.
NS1 onos with no ups: 950HP and 600AP
NS2 onos with cara: 600HP and 550ap (or 600)
That is a hughe difference if the dmg of SG/LMG are the same as in NS1.
So 3 LMG rines with weapons 0 need only 3s to push out 1500 DMG and a base onos has 1400HP against normal DMG.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats kinda false because kOnosHideArmor = 4
Every attack is reduced by 4dmg, before anything else.
Every attack is reduced by 4dmg, before anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh that is nice to know! Ty!
So got the DMG reduced by 4 if armor is affected?
If yes 10 N-DMG would deal 3 DMG to Armor. But because of the 0.7 multiplier can it be that 3 DMG go direct to the HP, and the 7 DMG that go to armor got reduced by 4 and divided by 2, resulting in only 1 AP loss.
So the Onos runs faster out of HP even if he has still armor.
If the DMG reduction is before the 0.7 multiplier it is less extreme (-1AP and -1HP per 10 N-DMG).
And with 0HP you are death, even if you have armor normaly.
Hope I understood it right.
If you don't want to glue marines on the ground then why put it on the primary attack, whyyyy ???
Haha yeah, that struck me as pretty nonsensical as well.
probably will be in a futur patch?!
*oh ya and dies way too easly
most of the onos I've seen as a marine were free kills for my jetpack/shotgun setup, because their teammates hung them out to dry the entire time
just sayin'
We are actually looking at changing the stomp to be the secondary attack, rather then the primary. So, Gore would be weapon 1 primary, and Smash would be weapon 2 primary, with Stomp as secondary for both.
We also have plans to have marines be affected by the Stomp in some way, as well, it just won't be the NS1 style of being locked to the ground unable to move, which was very frustrating.
--Cory
We also have plans to have marines be affected by the Stomp in some way, as well, it just won't be the NS1 style of being locked to the ground unable to move, which was very frustrating.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Make it disable the hud for a few seconds.
We also have plans to have marines be affected by the Stomp in some way, as well, it just won't be the NS1 style of being locked to the ground unable to move, which was very frustrating.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think Yuuki meant Gore, which locks marines to the ground, rendering them unable to move.
Why exactly was that added if you consider it frustrating?
<!--quoteo(post=1900097:date=Feb 6 2012, 07:49 AM:name=Wolpertinger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wolpertinger @ Feb 6 2012, 07:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900097"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Make it disable the hud for a few seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1900170:date=Feb 6 2012, 01:52 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 6 2012, 01:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900170"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Send marines up into the air, about half of jump height, and also disrupt reloads.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd prefer something that isn't plain annoying on the receiving end.
In HL1/NS1 this was a button which switched BACK to your last weapon.
So if i selected shotgun then pistol then pushed lastinv (usually q) it would go to shotgun.
push it again and it would swap back to pistol.
With all these 2 slot alien weapons I really miss this feature.
Sorry I realize this comment is completely off track but the thought came on the statement of separating gore and smash.
And I thought 'well i'll just press q' ....but i can't
Why exactly was that added if you consider it frustrating?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly, the logic behind this looks VERY alien to me :)
Why exactly was that added if you consider it frustrating?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it is different. The stomp in NS1 just meant that the marine just stops dead in their place, and can't move. That feels like a bug, standing there, with no change other then suddenly just unable to move. However, with Gore, you get hit and see your view model hands flailing around, while you fly through the air, and your view height drops to the ground, etc. While it serves the same purpose as a stun, it feels less like a bug, and is less frustrating because there is more visual stimuli to keep it interesting and inform you what is happening.
--Cory
More generally I found this well said :
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems reasonable to assume that in any competitive activity, in order to create a feeling of having fun, it is essential that the player feels he has a "fighting chance". One doesn't necessarily have to win, or even be any good, but the player has to believe that he had a chance to begin with. Conversely, believing that it was hopeless to begin with, that no matter what your actions were during the activity you would still end up losing in the end, is very frustrating for the player, and will likely make him avoid the activity in the future.
From that point of view, any gameplay mechanic that removes player control, that put the player into a situation where his actions don't have any influence over his performance in the activity, should be anathema for any game developer that wants to create a successful multiplayer game. There are many degrees of this of course, with the scale moving from gameplay mechanics which only slightly inhibit the player, to gameplay mechanics which render him completely helpless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tell that to Valve, with L4D.
--Cory
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see the difference. The visual appeal is going to wear of _very_ fast, leaving you only with the feeling of helplessness. If anything this is worse than stomp in NS1, because there you at least had a chance to escape if your teammates scared away the onos. And you also didn't have to reorientate yourself. Now, since it is bound to a melee attack, death is almost guaranteed once you've been hit.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tell that to Valve, with L4D.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I remember one of the goals for NS2 was to make it 'the best competitive game since Starcraft' (I can't find Flayra's exact quote, but something like that). Features that take away control from players are generally not suited for competitive play. In my opinion, stuns and similar effects belong into pure RTS games and have no place in an FPS.
Stunning one marine with a Onos melee attack seems pretty damn acceptable.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In L4D your perspective changes to 3rd person, which makes everything all the more frightening (re: immersion). Also, as a game-play mechanic this immediately alerts the player that they are no longer in control - this implementation also helps minimize the frustration feeling and replaces it with a helplessness feeling. If I could <i>see</i> my marine get rag-dolled 5 meters, it would be awesome. I could also see the greatness that is the Onos, and be afraid.. very afraid.
It's problem is clipping map features that slow his momentum ability and team players blocking escape. He should just run over skulks and gorges and lerks they are small lifeforms that should not block him ever.
Also bring back Devor. It was his best feature that truly made marines fear him.
Just don't punish the marine with waiting in the belly. Add the marine to the IP spawn que immedialty. His team mates can rescue him before the IP spawns him.
And punish the onos for the devor instant kill by making him run slower or he can't stomp or something. There should be a draw back.
Even though NS2 is an FPS game, it's also an RTS game. That means certain liberties get to be taken with dogmatic ideas like "OH NO DON'T REMOVE PLAYER CONTROL" - if I paid the pres to be an onos and you don't have a jetpack or heavy armor on, I will stun and smash you and that is my right.
This isn't like the Sandman or Natascha in TF2 where someone can waddle out and use it on you at any point in the game at negligible cost to their overall effectiveness. The onos is a very polarized character, with distinct strengths and weaknesses.
If you think getting stunned by an onos isn't fun, try spending twice the cost of a flamethrower to be an upgraded fade, and then getting neutered completely by that flamethrower with barely any aim from the marine :)
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would argue Left 4 Dead is successful in spite of the stun mechanic, rather than because of it. Team Fortress 2 is much more competitively focused game and didn't feature any stuns until they added the Sandman, a baseball bat that fires a ball that stuns players. The Sandman is also universally reviled in the Team Fortress 2 community. Thankfully no one uses it, so it isn't a major issue.