Remove the Hydra

internetexplorer · February 2012

<div class="IPBDescription">Yes I'm serious.</div>Some of you, who are what I would call "Hydra apologists" are already foaming at the mouth after reading the thread title.
However, I ask that you please bear with me and read at least half of this post.

First, I'll outline the reasons why the Hydra is bad for the game. After that, I'll explain an alternative design that can spice up the gorge class without having the same issues as the current hydra.

<span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%">Why the Hydra is bad:</span>

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">It is an ineffective way of killing players</span>

It does extremely poor damage and has extremely short range. It takes many hydras (totalling more than the cost of a fade or flamethrower) to do enough damage that you can kill a marine at the start of the game before he escapes.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">It is an ineffective way of wounding players</span>

The damage is so poor that it takes multiple shots to assist other players. For instance, if you look at the "2 bites + 1 parasite" way of killing marines at the start as a skulk, you can pretend a couple hydra shots are the parasite. So, your 10 res investment shoots a few times and all you get is the difference between firing a parasite and not, against ONE enemy.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">It is an ineffective way to create area control</span>

It is extremely easy to see where hydras are while you are safe from them, and it is extremely hard to find effective spots for them. Sure, you can place them on ceilings and set pieces, but 90% of the time their incredibly short range makes that useless. It also makes it impossible for you to heal them.

Their reaction time is extremely poor (possibly owing to the short range), which means that any positional advantage they have is lost as they slowly tilt toward a fleeing marine like a cartoon character that something fast just ran by.

The resource cost of hydras is pretty much the same as that of turrets, but turrets are a huge game-changer because they actually create area control in a way that is useful.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">It is a honey pot trap for new players</span>

Exactly like in NS1's offense chamber, players who are feeling shaky about their FPS skills will lean on playing the gorge. They say "this is an RTS game" and immediately start fortifying things with cysts and hydras. While your first hive (the safest place on the entire map) gets loaded with hydras that never fire a single shot for the entire game, your team is missing out on a player and that player's pres is going entirely to waste.

Even in the late game where things become frustrating and confusing for people, making hydras is a bad idea. As soon as the marines have grenades/flamethrowers/arcs, all the hydras on the map are essentially forfeit, and they won't do any damage before they die if the marines are just a little bit careful.

If new players want to focus on the gorge, the game should naturally encourage them to spread infestation and heal teammates through combat. Not to place 30 useless hydras while missing the game going on around them.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">It hurts client and server performance</span>

It's not exactly unknown that performance issues still plague this game. The developers are doing an excellent job trying to help it, but some parts of the game naturally create tickrate/framerate snags when they ought not to.

A room with 20 hydras on all the walls (so far away from entrances that they never fire a single shot) is harder on everyone's system than a room without those hydras.

Hydras also use the 'per room' building placement limit. I can't count how many games I've had where I said "It would be great to have some crags and whips here!" but the commander said "sorry, the game won't let me place them because someone build a ton of hydras."

Marines don't get to make obnoxious numbers of turrets, so why do gorges get to do this with hydras?

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">The whip does its job much more effectively</span>

It pretty much has the same range and reaction time, but it takes more damage to kill. It also does more burst damage, which is important for static defences. Why, you ask? Because nobody in their right mind will grind against a hydra and let it kill them. They will always see it, duck into a spot where it can't shoot back, and kill it. However, if someone turns a corner and gets a whip in the face, they just lost a third of their life instantly - this makes them vulnerable to fades/skulks/onos swatting them for a finisher.

The whip can also bombard, smack back grenades and move somewhere else when it's no longer useful.

Those are the problems with the Hydra that I will identify. Now for the positive part!

<span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%">An alternative Hydra design to solve all these problems:</span>

Alright. We're going to design something to replace the Hydra. It will have the following qualities:

- it is a static defense structure
- it is built by the gorge, costing pres

These are the similarities with the hydra. Now, we have some problems to solve too:

- Poor damage output
- Poor use of surprising positions (over doorways, on set pieces etc)
- Damage to performance and commander's building ability
- Low skill ceiling, 'honey pot trap for new players'

Here is the new Hydra that solves these problems:

<span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%">The Improved Hydra</span>

- Attacks <b>once</b> for 50 guaranteed damage. After it attacks, it is destroyed.
- Damage ignores armor
- Only attacks players
- Costs <b>3</b> pres to build
- It is affected by gravity. When built above ground, it stretches and extends down like the <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UigHAAkazYw" target="_blank">Barnacle </a>in Half-Life, to be in range of the ground below.
- Each Gorge player may only have <b>3</b> active hydras at a time. Active hydras can be recycled by using the secondary attack with the hydra build weapon.

This is a very different hydra. It doesn't exist to make the map look infested with aliens. It exists to smack someone who didn't expect to find it, killing them or making them extremely weak for a follow-up. It can be placed anywhere you want, and it will always be in range of doorways you want it to attack. However, it grows larger and becomes vulnerable from other angles as it stretches.

You can only make 3 of them. If players want to be effective with them, they have to place them in tricky spots where they will deal damage. If players want to be ineffective with them (and place them in bad/useless places), the impact on other players is limited. By making the Hydra less attractive as a choice for players who aren't sure what to do, the focus automatically shifts toward helping in combat with healing, belly slides and bile bombs. That's not to say this hydra is strictly weaker - it's not, and in fact it would probably get you a lot more kills than the current one. It just doesn't turn gorge players into wasted player slots.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">So, what do you think? Would you rather have this Hydra or not? Something in between? Discuss!</span>

Wisp · February 2012

You are right that Hydras are annoying and pointless, but your suggested replacement is really no different than a mine.

internetexplorer · February 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wisp @ Feb 4 2012, 05:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899709"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>You are right that Hydras are annoying and pointless, but your suggested replacement is really no different than a mine.</div>

It's different because it can be placed on any surface in a room (with infestation), and it hits at range the instant it can hit something. It also takes a lot more than 10 lerk spikes to kill it - especially since you can heal it with a gorge.

It can also be built at any time without going to something like an armory.

These are all traits of the current hydra that carry over, because I didn't change the fact that it's <i>a static defence structure placed on infestation by the gorge</i>.

culprit · February 2012

I'm not quite into your proposed solution. Seems to similar to marine mines. You do have some valid points about the flaws of hydras.

I think the simplest solution would be to give gorges the ability to re-absorb hydras for a % of p-res refund. This would make gorge encampments less permanent and static over the course of the game. Early gorging would be about holding chokepoints and positioning. When the 2nd hive goes up, reabsorb a few hydras and you can afford a lerk or fade.

Poorly positioned hydras siting around doing nothing would be no more.

Yuuki · February 2012

There was a long thread about hydra having a limited lifetime, which could be a simpler solution.

Good post though. The "honey pot trap" made me think when I was an ns1 noob, I would often go gorge and drop rt, chambers or hive because I was bad at lerk and fade, and I would still feel useful to the team because it was so critical to drop rts and stuff. I'm not sure how this translate into ns2.

Egad! · February 2012

Hydra is like the sentry -- it's primary purpose is to thwart an attack by one or two players, and to slow a full on assault. Both DO NOT work by themselves -- they need to be supported by other players. They are defensive, not offensive.

The sentry is a bit better, but it also can be easily killed from a distance or from above. The hydra can attack from all angles. The hydra works extremely well if you are clever where you put it.

Personally, the only item I think needs to be removed is mines. Those are cheap and annoying. Hydras need some work, definitely, but they are still effective when used correctly.

Skie · February 2012

Hydras are good if placed well. In Mineshaft, if placed in ceilings and walls, it stops JP marines flying all over the place.
Two is enough to deny/thwart an easy resnode kill by a solo marine. In mid-game RES is everything, so this is good.

internetexplorer · February 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Feb 4 2012, 05:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899716"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I think the simplest solution would be to give gorges the ability to re-absorb hydras for a % of p-res refund.</div>

would bad gorges who just want to play simcity actually use this? would it change the fact that hydras are always garbage in terms of their damage output and survivability?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Feb 4 2012, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899719"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Good post though. The "honey pot trap" made me think when I was an ns1 noob, I would often go gorge and drop rt, chambers or hive because I was bad at lerk and fade, and I would still feel useful to the team because it was so critical to drop rts and stuff. I'm not sure how this translate into ns2.</div>

the actual NS analogy is the people who made nothing but offense chambers in areas where no combat would take place for the foreseeable future :)

the 'useful gorge' in this game drops cysts, heals and bilebombs

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Egad! @ Feb 4 2012, 06:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899722"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Hydra is like the sentry -- it's primary purpose is to thwart an attack by one or two players, and to slow a full on assault. Both DO NOT work by themselves -- they need to be supported by other players. They are defensive, not offensive.

The sentry is a bit better, but it also can be easily killed from a distance or from above. The hydra can attack from all angles. The hydra works extremely well if you are clever where you put it.

Personally, the only item I think needs to be removed is mines. Those are cheap and annoying. Hydras need some work, definitely, but they are still effective when used correctly.</div>

The hydra attacking from all angles is not useful because its range and reaction time are so ridiculously poor. It's also by design stapled to a surface any time it's in use. That wouldn't matter if you could safely put them in the places sentries are put (on ground level), but you can't do that because of their low health and tiny range. Hydras are ideally put on ceilings and above doorways, but in that case they may as well have a fixed firing angle like sentries, because 2/3 of the volume around them is wasted by whatever part of the map they're attached to.

The sentry is a LOT better, and you can be clever about where you place that too. The difference is that the effort you put in actually matters, and it's not just someone being cute and covering the walls in green stuff because it looks scary. Sentries get a lot of kills, critically weaken a lot of aliens, and drive the entire strategy of the aliens team whenever they're used. Hydras go unnoticed by everyone but the gorge who slaves over them.

We can even make a game of it - each time you play, count the number of sentry kills and the number of hydra kills in a really long game. We can make some charts and stuff if you like...

This thread isn't about mines. It's about the hydra. Which is not effective even when used correctly.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Feb 4 2012, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899725"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Hydras are good if placed well. In Mineshaft, if placed in ceilings and walls, it stops JP marines flying all over the place.
Two is enough to deny/thwart an easy resnode kill by a solo marine. In mid-game RES is everything, so this is good.</div>

It doesn't stop JPs unless they're terrible. Were they flying into the hydras nonstop and dying, or were they too dumb/afraid to just fly past the hydras like they're nothing? Take your pick.

When I can kill a hydra with 1 LMG magazine from outside of its range, it's not going to stop me killing a resnode. 2 hydras is 2 LMG magazines. If players come to defend, I will fight the players as if the hydras aren't there, and not suffer for it (they don't even work as a lynchpin for a group effort because they're just so gimpy).

Please don't try to act like you're the only people who have tried to 'use hydras well' or 'place them creatively.' They have hideous limitations, even when placed in brilliant places, and that's what my post is about.

mushookees · February 2012

I Agree that Hydras are too expensive and are only effective in large numbers

Would making them a large area of effect mine be better performance wise ? they wont have to track targets, they just have to do damage to whoever is in range ??? You could also make them explode 3 times, 1 for each spike ball, this way 1 marine wont clear all the hydras in a room at once. If you combine a shade with this type of hydra, marines could be walking into a death trap :D

peregrinus · February 2012

Beta is all about balancing features. Almost everything you said about the hydra did not apply to the hydra as it was in previous builds, and I'm sure it's going to be changed again at some point.

PsiWarp · February 2012

You know what would be funny? If Gorge could choose 3 spots for his newly birthed Hydra stalks to stretch to, making some kind of web-like blockade. +1 for Traps.

Still, I agree with the problems you have pointed out, and would like to see less spamming too.

Harimau · February 2012

There are other questions to ask, with regard to team size scaling.

how many comms? one. what do comms place? sentries.
how many khams? one. what do khams place? whips.
how many marine? more than one. what do marines place? mines.
how many gorges? more than one. what do gorges place? hydras.

Therefore, hydras should be more analogous to mines than sentries.

Why?

Sentries work as area denial, and their number does not really need to scale with team size, because it forces enemy players to work around the sentry, rather than attack it head-on to remove it. They do not scale, because they are spent out of TRes, and TRes gains do not scale with player size.

Similarly, whips work as area denial for the exact same reasons, and their number does not need to scale with player size for the exact same reasons. The whip is analogous to the sentry.

Mines do direct damage to players, and are consumed (destroyed) upon use, so their number should scale with team size (so that the number of mines per the number of aliens does not decrease with the number of players) - and they do scale with team size, since if you have more marines, you have more total PRes, so your team can field more mines.

Hydras, now, currently every gorge player can place them (essentially) indefinitely (until it hits the structure per-room limit), so the number of hydras scale with the number of players (sort of). This is a bad idea because hydras do not expire until marines kill them (or the cysts they're being supported by), so IF no marines kill them, you could (if there were no limits) have an infinite number of hydras.
->
So what I think hydras should do, is expire upon use, just like mines. Now there is a second condition for expiry. Hydras <b>should</b> be more analogous to mines than sentries, because of who places them (ground players), because of how many can be placed (not limited by TRes), and because of their role in the game (which is not area denial). Naturally, there should be more hydras per gorge than mines per marine, because there are less gorges than marines; however, this is not really an issue, as the limiting factor is PRes cost - you need only make hydra PRes cost similar to mine PRes cost to make them have similar numbers per game.

internetexplorer's suggestion (or something very like it) not only addresses the issues he's already discussed, but also addresses the scalability issue.

As for the actual attack, I think it should be more of a 'shotgun hydra' - hitscan with visual projectile a la Lerk spikes, some projectile spread, many projectiles (as many as are present on the model), some damage per projectile, fires all projectiles at once (or perhaps fires 3 times, for each hydra head, with a minor delay between attacks), and does light damage. This fits better with the current hydra model, and is more familiar to current players.

I don't think that there's a need to limit the number of hydras a gorge can place, since they will be consumed upon use (just like mines). It also sidesteps any issues that occur from not being able to recycle. If there is to be a hydra limit per gorge, then mines should have a limit per marine, and that mine limit should be less than the hydra limit, as there are more marines than gorges. Unfortunately, how can you ever know how many gorges there are going to be per team? So that's why I don't think there needs to be a per-player limit on hydras or mines.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Feb 5 2012, 08:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Beta is all about balancing features. Almost everything you said about the hydra did not apply to the hydra as it was in previous builds, and I'm sure it's going to be changed again at some point.</div>
I find that this is a strange thing to say. Betas generally do not change (i.e. improve) without feedback (whether that feedback is internal, or from the community), so telling him that his feedback is pointless works against the <b>point</b> of a beta.

Sampson · February 2012

comparing hydras to turrets is funny as hell. turrets are like 5 hydras in one, for the same amount of res (tres anyway).

internetexplorer · February 2012

Really smart post, Harimau.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Feb 4 2012, 08:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Beta is all about balancing features. Almost everything you said about the hydra did not apply to the hydra as it was in previous builds, and I'm sure it's going to be changed again at some point.</div>

every single version I've played has had hydras useless in it

if they seemed better 10-20+ builds ago, it's because marines were unplayable from that point backward

the offense chamber was also almost entirely useless in NS1, and had all the same problems the hydra has in NS2 except the brutally short range

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sampson @ Feb 4 2012, 09:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899752"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>comparing hydras to turrets is funny as hell. turrets are like 5 hydras in one, for the same amount of res (tres anyway).</div>

yes, and this is the easiest way to see that hydras are bad, without reading my giant wall of text

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 4 2012, 09:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899746"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>If there is to be a hydra limit per gorge, then mines should have a limit per marine</div>

I believe both of these things, but that's probably a topic for another thread..

twiliteblue · February 2012

How about a compromise:

Change Hydras to damage themselves every time they fire, so they die after x attacks. Hydras would require more attention from Gorges, rather than being plant-and-forget structures.

To improve Hydras' effectiveness as area denial defense, increase their missile speed and rate of fire.

I'm not sure that Hydras need to deal AOE damage tho. That would make them scale too well. Imagine a ceiling of Hydras instagibbing all those who enters the room.

fanatic · February 2012

I agree with the thread title and parts of your analysis, but I can't agree with your proposed solution for the same reason I'm opposed to making any static defense powerful: It increases how much static defenses influence gameplay. Which brings me to:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Feb 5 2012, 02:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>the offense chamber was also almost entirely useless in NS1, and had all the same problems the hydra has in NS2 except the brutally short range</div>
Yes and no. They were near-useless as tools for getting frags, but very useful to support the alien team in certain situations. The most basic use, which was always useful, was dropping a few of them in the building second hive, which made defending it against the standard marine first push (pg outside + mix of shotguns/lmgs and maybe a pack of mines to place inside the hive) considerably easier.

I would argue that OCs being so weak at the use they were commonly employed (walls of lame), but still useful when you knew how to utilize them properly, made the game immensely better than if they had been good at said common useage.

Multiplayer games should be about player vs. player interaction, not player vs. game controlled static defence. We're already seeing the effects beefed up turrets are having on gameplay, and they're not good.

Wheeee · February 2012

how would i improve hydras? make them shot web as well as do damage (as per right now). 1 per hydra head. once all 3 are gone, the hydra dies. reduce pres cost.

internetexplorer · February 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Feb 4 2012, 11:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>shot web</div>

I snorted laughing!

also fana I suppose you're kinda right, but it's hard to say "this game mechanic is weak and sucks, so you should change it but make it still weak and sucky"

Zek · February 2012

IE you really need to learn to pick your battles, it seems like every day you've decided something else sucks and needs to be scrapped.

Hydras and the Gorge in general need work but I don't see any reason to remove them. I think they simply need to be given a more active role. They should be like mini-sentries in TF2 - ineffective at area denial, but useful for support in combat and setting surprise ambushes with minimal investment. My idea off the top of my head:

1. Let Hydras be built off the infestation. This allows Gorge to play offensive support and not be completely defenseless in the process. Side benefit of this is that you can always put them on walls/ceilings without having to struggle with the quirky infestation spreading behavior!

2. Make Hydras very cheap to build and let them finish in only a couple seconds. In exchange give them a limited lifespan and/or apply a maximum limit. This changes their role from turtling to combat support and setting up annoying ambushes.

I think this gives the Gorge a much more interesting playstyle and a more distinct class role rather than being a surrogate pseudo-commander.

kingmob · February 2012

You open with remove the hydra and its really change the hydra.
And your suggestion does sound a bit like a mine.

It is an ineffective way of killing players

-Yes it is. But it was never meant to be a player killer ...more a deterrent.

It is an ineffective way of wounding players

-Deterrent...It's like thorns...if you get beat up by a skulk and then run by it...and it kills you...so sad.

It is an ineffective way to create area control

-There were some good points in here about pricing i thought.
-If there going to be a determent (expected to die)...they really shouldn't cost so damn much.

It is a honey pot trap for new players

-So what some new players get a kick out building green growy things. I still get a kick out of building them.

It hurts client and server performance

-This was a valid point. This has been a long known issue and it should be decided.
-They should either clip how many hydras can exist, what it does.... something so it can never endanger a server.

The whip does its job much more effectively

-Yes it does...but its not a deterrent.

Karko · February 2012

Why put so much effort into re-inventing hydra? How about if it was just boosted damage and range wise a bit?

Harimau · February 2012

Because the hydra, as it is, is a failed concept.

Better to remove it entirely than not fix it.

NurEinMensch · February 2012

Fewer but stronger hydras.

Yuuki · February 2012

Hydras are flowers no ? What do flowers do ? They bloom and soon after they die. Sounds good to me and easy to implement.

For the effectiveness they should be barely effective, I mean weak as possible without being useless.

Runteh · February 2012

To be honest, whilst the fps/rts mix is what makes this game - at some times it breaks it.

For all the building as alien commander, I want to be 'supporting the action'. Whilst building infestation paths is fun, it can be incredibly tedious and not that exciting.

Also, Hydras and Sentries clash with the fps side of the game. As in, they become clutter and prevent 'combat flow' as you may call it.

I'd rather see commanders giving orders (using a more forgiving system like Charlie has been working on) and casting pheromones and active 'spells' rather than building all the time time out of the action.

I'm sure hydras and sentries will stay, but for all the tweaking - especially for sentries - no one seems to be happy with them.

The problem is that when they are made 'a little more powerful' everyone moans that they ruin the combat of the game.

When they are too weak, people moan they cost too much and can't hold territory. So UWE make them super cheap, and it leads to spam.

In all the builds, I have never seen a good balance. It was a problem in NS1 as well.

Through every build I have not seen one solution that seems to work, and I still think they need a 'serious' overhaul in regard to their purpose.

Now that mines are in the game, and we have 'nano shields', i'd rather see marine sentries that are used for blocking corridor routes for aliens. Low FOV, very weak rear defence - so that they become useless in rooms.

This means aliens have to flank them by taking longer routes, negating what makes aliens so effective - their travel speed.

I did this concept ages ago, and i'd really like to see UWE take a very different approach to them. Doesn't have to be this exactly, but something different.

Perhaps the 'nano shield' tech could replace turrets - creating 'force fields' that block aliens from moving down corridors, unless attacked from behind.

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autograder · February 2012

Two things needed:
<ul><li>Consumable by gorges for % pres</li><li>Upgradeable dmg/range for additional pres by gorge</li></ul>

Triggerman · February 2012

I'm going to quote in my thread on the suggestions forum regarding Hydras. I want to limit the amount of Hydras per player and make them cost Adrenaline.
As a sort of "Sentry Turret" in the Starcraft 2's Raven unit, making them more available for the Gorge while in combat.

<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115460" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=115460</a>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><b>Suggestion summary</b>
<span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%">The Gorge places structures from afar by spitting them onto a surface,
Hydras cost Adrenaline but there's a limited amount a player can put out,
the player can upgrade himself to have more.</span>

---

<b>Spitting structures</b>
<ul><li>Hydras and Pustules are launched from the Gorge's mouth in a tight
ball that settles on any surface and then begins to build the structure.</li></ul>
<b>Gorge</b>
<ul><li>Pustules cost <i>PRes </i>to build.</li><li>Hydras cost <i>Adrenaline</i> to build.</li><li>The Gorge can only have one Hydra out at the field at a time without upgrades.</li><li>By upgrading through the Evolve Menu, the limit is increased.
I.e. up to three Hydras from this player at any time.</li></ul>
<b>Required tweaks</b>
<ul><li>Adrenaline cost for Hydra must be relatively high. I'm thinking the whole bar for placing 2-3 Hydras.</li><li>Build time for a Hydra should be decreased.</li><li>Damage for Hydra should be decreased.</li><li>Health for a Hydra should be decreased.</li><li>New 'wither' animation for when the Gorge is replacing an old Hydra with a new one.</li><li>The Whip needs to take over the role as primary static defense.</li></ul>Otherwise the Gorge would likely be too powerful in numbers and while defending.
Imagine the ramp up to 'Surface Access' in <i>ns2_summit</i> if you will.

<b>Gameplay example:</b>
<blockquote>1.) A player evolves into a Gorge and is able to have one Hydra out at the field at a time.
It costs him only Adrenaline to place a Hydra.

2.) The player then invests in two additional upgrades called "Hydra Rank 1" and
"Hydra Rank 2" available from the evolve menu. They cost PRes.

3.) The player is now able to have three Hydras out at a time.

4.) The Gorge and a few Skulks battles against a few marines.
The Skulks rushes in while the Gorge throws two Hydras from down the corridor
that sticks against a wall where the battle is. The Hydras are built and begins to shoot.
The Gorge has now regenerated enough Adrenaline to heal a friendly player who had to retreat.
The Gorge uses Spit a few times for good measure, but out of thin air a grenade hits and kill the Gorge.

5.) Upon his death, the Gorge lose the Hydra upgrades as well as the already placed Hydras.
He needs to purchase the upgrade and place the Hydras again the next time he evolves into a Gorge. Repeat step 1.)</blockquote>

<b>Unanswered questions</b>
What happens when the projectile Hydra/Pustule hits another player?
Does it deal damage? Does it cause an effect on the enemy? Does the projectile simply collide and fall down?

<b>Motivation</b>
I think this is a way of making the Gorge more fluid and offensive, yet retaining the PRes cost.
The player can invest in his form to make himself more offensive in that role as a Gorge by
purchasing the upgrade to have more Hydras available to him. An added bonus (depends on how you see
it, of course) is that players who have a huge dump of PRes cannot simply become a Gorge
to spam the whole map with Hydras and then return to Fade.

The Hydras and Pustules will in return also be more viable to use offensively and more quickly.
In this scenario I believe Hydras can even be shot out as a distraction for pursuing marines,
something that's not possible currently. It also allows the Gorge to remain effective while staying
behind the Skulks/Fades/Onos who are dealing/receiving the brunt of the damage without having
to invest PRes.</div>

IronHorse · February 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 5 2012, 05:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899879"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Because the hydra, as it is, is a failed concept.

Better to remove it entirely than not fix it.</div>

::shakes head::
i never get people who approach issues this way. in any development there will be issues with implementation and practicality versus the intended purpose / result. its the development / patches on them that <i><b>fix</b></i> them.
i mean, you actually just picked removing something <u>over</u> fixing it. ... ::scratches head::
<i>thats akin to me selling my car because of a flat tire.</i>

true, if the car is the issue then i sell the whole thing. but do you really believe that the hydra cannot be adjusted in such a modifiable game to suit everyone's standards?? what is so wrong in it's concept that cannot be modified? every single point the OP posted can be fixed.. easily, mind you.

attempt, at least, to make it work before scrapping it.

(oh and causing poor performance shouldnt even be included on there, its not like that isn't solvable or part of the natural process of development for ANY element. remember when particle effects from building gave you 1 fps?)

and yes, allow the gorge to eat his own hydra for re placement.. the front lines change

Jitterz · February 2012

He is right! Buff Hydras!!!

internetexplorer · February 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ Feb 5 2012, 03:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899817"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>It is an ineffective way of killing players

-Yes it is. But it was never meant to be a player killer ...more a deterrent.

It is an ineffective way of wounding players

-Deterrent...It's like thorns...if you get beat up by a skulk and then run by it...and it kills you...so sad.

It is a honey pot trap for new players

-So what some new players get a kick out building green growy things. I still get a kick out of building them.

The whip does its job much more effectively

-Yes it does...but its not a deterrent.</div>

- Why would anyone spent 10 pres multiple times on something that will not (and is not meant to) kill a player?
- How does it deter anyone from anything after the first time they get killed by a hydra? It's so brutally easy to find and react to them before they ever attack you.
- New players should be able to discover what they like in the game and enjoy it, but it's a multiplayer game too. Having mechanics that allow players to effectively grief their teammates without knowing it is kinda silly. Every moment someone spends thinking they're doing creative and amazing things with hydras will wind up to be a waste in pretty much every game they play.
- I think the whip is more of a deterrent BECAUSE of how it does the hydra's job more effectively. 1 hydra shot doesn't change the number bites/swipes to kill you once marines have a bit of armor, but 1 whip hit is always pretty significant (especially if they're mature). I regularly run by hydras and shrug off the damage, but I can't do that with whips.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (autograder @ Feb 5 2012, 09:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899891"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Two things needed:
<ul><li>Consumable by gorges for % pres</li><li>Upgradeable dmg/range for additional pres by gorge</li></ul></div>

I like this too! If the commander/gorge could upgrade them (like sentries in the TF games) it might add something. But it also increases the amount of time players spent nurturing hydras instead of healing/spitting/bilebombing. Like other people have said, it's important not to over-emphasize the "RTS" part of the game, and this is why the gorge no longer builds RTs/hives in the first place.

Broseidon · February 2012

I made a topic on fixing the hydra in the ideas and suggestions forum. Thought that you guys might be interested
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Idea: The Hydra will shoot away it's spike balls rapidly hitting the marines. When the Hydra have shot one spike ball it will need time to regrow to shoot again, the other spike balls can still shoot while the others are growing back. if all spike balls are regrowing it can't attack and is now very vulnerable. The spike balls makes 25 dmg, 3 spike balls per hydra 75 dmg total.
This way the Hydra will scale good with the marine armor upgrades as well:
armor 0: 2 hydras to kill 1 marine 6 spike balls
armor 1: -II-/same
armor 2: 3 hydras to kill 1 marine 7 spike balls
armor 3: 3 hydras to kill 1 marine 8 spike balls
assuming that the spike balls will make the same amount of damage to armor and health of course.
One hydra is not a waste of P-Res either cause it severely hurts the marine that can easily be killed of by a life form. If the Hydra isn't killed it can regrow it's spike balls to help another day. This also gives marines the ability to clear Hydra fields by sending in a MAC or ARC to soak up the spike balls so the marines then easily can kill of the defenseless Hydras. This new Hydra will not attack structures.
Spike ball regrow time: 8 sec
P-res cost: 5</div>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116202" target="_blank">Spike ball shooting Hydra</a>

Remove the Hydra

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