Nice link fana. TF2 still uses that mechanic for rocket/demo jumping also, albeit with strafe used to maintain momentum and chaining explosions for speed. Allows a soldier to push from 200 ups to 1500 ups.
Was kinda how I thought they were trying to do 'walljumping'.
<!--quoteo(post=1901044:date=Feb 8 2012, 09:14 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Feb 8 2012, 09:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901044"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Funnily enough, I didn't mention by a word that bunnyhopping should be added to NS2, I simply posted to correct your misinformation/lies. Blame yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I already explained to you why what was said was absolutely correct. Nice strawman though, you must be proud of it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are also some very convincing theoretical arguments for why it is needed for balancing melee vs. ranged gameplay for all levels of play, read more about that here: <a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/" target="_blank">http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's move away from bunnyhopping before it gets this thread locked. It's already been stated as most likely not being an option.
I'm in agreement with Yuuki on stamina/sprint: Either remove stamina for sprint, or remove sprint. I would be happy with either. If you must have sprint stamina, it must have a stamina bar - but I think that stamina as a mechanic isn't very compelling, and generally people dislike stamina bars (or is it that we dislike stamina? I'm not entirely certain). Stamina is more bad than good.
But let's say that we remove sprint for marines, what would be beneficial for them? I would like to give marines a bit of close-quarters manoeuvrability, like for instance a two-pace dash; something that will make it a more viable option than jumping around like an idiot when a skulk is at your toes. For instance, shift+direction makes a marine lean in that direction, and when holding shift and changing to a new direction (e.g. shift+forward -> shift+right), the marine kind of evades and does a long stride in that direction; in effect, kind of like a very-short-distance dash.
With regard to skulk movement... I'm just going to brainstorm an idea, which kind of makes sense physically. At least it does to me. - Whenever a skulk lands on a surface, and continues to run on a surface, they quickly build up traction up until a maximum level of traction. - The faster a skulk is moving, the longer it takes to reach the maximum level of traction, i.e. the faster you move, the slower you gain traction. - Whenever a skulk runs on a surface, they decelerate (constantly?) until a "minimum" maximum velocity (the skulk's default running speed), i.e. if you are moving faster than the default speed, you will (constantly?) decelerate. - Traction is required to jump effectively, i.e. jumping power is proportional to traction. If you have no traction, your jumps will be mere hops. If you have maximum traction, your jumps will have maximum power. - Jumping always adds speed to your current speed, and you always jump in your view direction (rather than "up", so kind of like a mini-leap). - Holding crouch while on a surface will both decelerate you faster, and gain you traction faster. Holding crouch then jumping will also add a bonus to your jumping power. + Optional: changing the viewing angle while running full-tilt will not preserve the full forward speed (i.e. changing your viewing angle will decelerate you; should be balanced with faster traction gain), so maintaining and gaining speed while moving in a straight line is a much simpler task though of course much less versatile. > This should be applicable to any surface, including floors, walls and ceilings. > There may have to be some visual indication of traction (and possibly even speed), this could be easily done using view-height offsetting (increased traction = lower view-height). > Traction-gain and deceleration are, on the whole, very fast: i.e. we're talking a couple seconds for deceleration from a maximum effective speed to default running speed. Generally, traction-gain is much faster than deceleration, in order to allow for speed-gain (and speed-maintenance) from jumping. It is about finding the balance between traction, jumping power, deceleration and current speed, by timing jumps (and crouches) with surface landings, in order to gain or maintain (or even reduce) speed.
With regard to fade movement, I think that Yuuki's fade mod is perfect. I'm not entirely certain there needs to be an added movement mechanic if short-distance blinks become a viable primary mechanic, although the fact that blink is dependent on energy could be problematic (not always available) or beneficial (requires energy management).
Marines need something more maneuverable then sprint. A lot of people would rather just be faster and have sprint gone.
The whole, gain an extra jump on higher surfaces, from NS 1 might be a good start. At least you could ascend quickly and there is plenty of geography all through out hallways to facilitate this.
Skulks need something to close gaps in open areas. In tight hallways they have ambush options. When walls are plenty they have the advantage anyway. Help the skulk out with skill base movement that applies in open areas and can be used to traverse the map with relative speed.
Charged Pounce is an option from any surface and a mechanic could be built in to retain speed. Hari mentioned a traction vs speed idea (not going to lie, i dont completely grasp it). Might need more bar indicators that would clutter the hud *maybe*.
Gorge - What if they had a web they could shoot and swing from. Like spiderman? It would be really fun, but could people accept it. Look at the web mod in NS1 for reference.
Lerk - Need better air control and weapons that actually complement flying.
Fade - Yuuki's mod. I like the short burst style. It solves the invul problem better than current implementation.
Onos - Needs tweaking. Not enough to scrap it yet.
I think the current movement system for the skulk isn't too bad, it's just very hard to use it on the maps. Gaining momentum with wall jumps feels really nice _if_ it works. But in most rooms and corridors the ceilings and walls are too fractured to find good spots to land on or keep your flow while running. It works best in Tram currently, but even there it's quite hard most of the time.
Since it would be very restrictive for mappers to build the walls and ceilings as flat as the floor I would suggest to make the skulk movement a little easier by not removing the momentum once you touch the floor but only if you get shot or stop running.
I'd like to quickly dispel the notion that bunnyhopping in at speed was ever better than a well-timed ambush. It wasn't.
Bunnyhopping was a useful and fun tool of getting from A to B faster. Brainlessly pressing forward to go from a hive to any location is boring.
It was also a viable option of attack should marines entrench themselves. Non-leap skulks will get slaughtered if no equivalent is implemented before performance improves and aim sky-rockets.
I'd go on to explain why I think bunnyhopping (or an effective alternative) is required but it's all explained better in the nineLegends link: <a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/" target="_blank">http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1901230:date=Feb 9 2012, 07:40 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Feb 9 2012, 07:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901230"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd go on to explain why I think bunnyhopping (or an effective alternative) is required but it's all explained better in the provided link above, rather than post the same link on the same page.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is this the part where you're an alt-account for Fanatic, or did you feel like posting the same link again and explain what Fana had already said? Like I also said, these new mechanics may not be perfect now, but I'm sure it will get there. New mechanics, something new to learn and become 'pro' with.
This has been a pending issue since the alpha-release, and has only become more relevant with each passing day. Now, 6 months before release, they better the hell get cracking at these new 'new mechanics', because so far we've seen diddly squat. You're quick to shoot down the return to bunnyhopping, but have suggested ###### all to use instead.
Grudgingly, wall jumping could work if maps were designed with it in mind, you have the ability to retain speed, and better control in the air is added. Movement and performance need to be the top priorities when not adding new content. The game has to be fun to play. So far compared to its biggest criric (ns1) it fails badly. Movement will be the first thing players experience upon entering the game.
Maps are supposed to get bigger and aliens will lose if they dont get their old mobility back. Aliens dont have anything that warps them to the action like marines do because they always had higher mobility. Phase gates, squad spawning (shudder), beacon, and other things make marine more about getting that foot hold and keep the meat grinder going. Aliens, map control and scouting.
Something needs to be done now so it can be properly tested.
<!--quoteo(post=1901234:date=Feb 9 2012, 10:20 AM:name=Banzai¥)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Banzai¥ @ Feb 9 2012, 10:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901234"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is this the part where you're an alt-account for Fanatic, or did you feel like posting the same link again and explain what Fana had already said? Like I also said, these new mechanics may not be perfect now, but I'm sure it will get there. New mechanics, something new to learn and become 'pro' with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's a good link so I reposted it because I want it to get more attention. Is this the part where you explain why there's something wrong with that?
i think the main problem with wall jumping for now is that a lot of walls aren't smooth enough for it to work without being perfect (skill floor is too high). it's not intuitive why you're gaining speed at some places and losing speed in others, and it doesn't give the player any feedback on how to get better. so if wall jumping is going to work as a long term solution then i think two things have to happen: wall-walking will have to be smoothed up so that minor bumps don't break your stride, and there needs to be some sort of system by which the player can understand the proper method of getting more boost in the desired direction.
This sounds as bad a teaching bhop......... plus i have never enjoyed walking on the walls in either ns1 or ns2. We fall off way too easy and as you said the walls have even mire geometry now.
<!--quoteo(post=1901249:date=Feb 9 2012, 09:26 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Feb 9 2012, 09:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901249"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a good link so I reposted it because I want it to get more attention. Is this the part where you explain why there's something wrong with that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I came off a bit of a ###### with that comment and I apologize, but I didn't see how posting the link twice would grant it more attention.
@Player This is the first time you've posted on this thread and as I haven't read everything you've posted elsewhere, I'll assume you're quick to have the same mechanic brought into NS2 and remove everything that's new.
We've had god knows how many topics about this already, stretching since before the alpha-release. Don't be thick. NS1 had issues that NS2 ought to tackle, but movement wasn't one of them (aside from automating it, replacing scripting with button-holding et cetera). Many of the 'new' things are\were downright dreadful (to the point where even the devs realised it, and reversed their design-decisions), and I'm still holding my breath for MACs\sprinting and a few others to bite the bullet.
<b>Range:</b> As the video (www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/) shows, the skill based movement stuff should allow to reach some area of interest that are not otherwise reachable, for example jump from railing A to railing B. You can think of skill based movement to have a specific range (in meters) which comes from the velocity increase, the jump force, etc. This range should be matched to the typical map size, for example if the range is 20 centimeters and the typical distance between map objects is two meters your skill based movement is not very useful. So, is the range of the current wall jumping big enough? can you think of some example in summit where it allows you to go from point A to point B ?
<b>Travel time :</b> As an attacking skulk you want to minimize the traveling time from the first point where a marine can see you to the the marine itself. Simply because shorter times means less time for the marine to shoot you. Travel time is given by velocity times distance, so to decrease it you can either increase speed or decrease distance. One problem I can see with the current wall jumping is that going on a wall to get a speed boost often means longer distance to travel, so it's not really useful.
<b>Predictability :</b> You also want to make your trajectory as unpredictable as possible, but we also want to avoid randomness/silliness.
<b>Spam efficiency :</b> Spamming the skill based movement, or failing at using it should be (very) inefficient, otherwise it's not skill based. That's something the current wall jumping is not very good at: you can spam jump to gain speed and do unpredictable trajectories at the same time.
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1901257:date=Feb 9 2012, 05:01 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Feb 9 2012, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901257"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Range:</b> As the video (www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/) shows, the skill based movement stuff should allow to reach some area of interest that are not otherwise reachable, for example jump from railing A to railing B. You can think of skill based movement to have a specific range (in meters) which comes from the velocity increase, the jump force, etc. This range should be matched to the typical map size, for example if the range is 20 centimeters and the typical distance between map objects is two meters your skill based movement is not very useful. So, is the range of the current wall jumping big enough? can you think of some example in summit where it allows you to go from point A to point B ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem is not the wall jumping range. I don't know it, but I'd say the maps in NS1 were (at least in part) designed around bhopping, while in NS2 you can't even be sure yet if the wall jumping will stay in the game at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1901256:date=Feb 9 2012, 03:00 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Feb 9 2012, 03:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901256"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We've had god knows how many topics about this already, stretching since before the alpha-release. Don't be thick. NS1 had issues that NS2 ought to tackle, but movement wasn't one of them (aside from automating it, replacing scripting with button-holding et cetera). Many of the 'new' things are\were downright dreadful (to the point where even the devs realised it, and reversed their design-decisions), and I'm still holding my breath for MACs\sprinting and a few others to bite the bullet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You and me both. Not like the devs weigh in on these topics. Time for them to let us know what the plan is. 6 months flies by.
<!--quoteo(post=1901257:date=Feb 9 2012, 03:01 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Feb 9 2012, 03:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901257"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some random thoughts :
<b>Range:</b> As the video (www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/) shows, the skill based movement stuff should allow to reach some area of interest that are not otherwise reachable, for example jump from railing A to railing B. You can think of skill based movement to have a specific range (in meters) which comes from the velocity increase, the jump force, etc. This range should be matched to the typical map size, for example if the range is 20 centimeters and the typical distance between map objects is two meters your skill based movement is not very useful. So, is the range of the current wall jumping big enough? can you think of some example in summit where it allows you to go from point A to point B ?
<b>Travel time :</b> As an attacking skulk you want to minimize the traveling time from the first point where a marine can see you to the the marine itself. Simply because shorter times means less time for the marine to shoot you. Travel time is given by velocity times distance, so to decrease it you can either increase speed or decrease distance. One problem I can see with the current wall jumping is that going on a wall to get a speed boost often means longer distance to travel, so it's not really useful.
<b>Predictability :</b> You also want to make your trajectory as unpredictable as possible, but we also want to avoid randomness/silliness.
<b>Spam efficiency :</b> Spamming the skill based movement, or failing at using it should be (very) inefficient, otherwise it's not skill based. That's something the current wall jumping is not very good at: you can spam jump to gain speed and do unpredictable trajectories at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You bring up another good point. Predictability, if to move fast the skulk needs a wall, not only is that easy to see where he is going but exposes the huge skulk model to line of fire.
<!--quoteo(post=1901253:date=Feb 9 2012, 11:40 AM:name=Banzai¥)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Banzai¥ @ Feb 9 2012, 11:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Player This is the first time you've posted on this thread and as I haven't read everything you've posted elsewhere, I'll assume you're quick to have the same mechanic brought into NS2 and remove everything that's new.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> With his 949 posts to your 23, that wouldn't be a wise assumption. Anyway, I echo player's concerns about the time-frame in which they plan to smash out some really solid movement mechanics. If they plan to all at all, that is!
---
The irony and failings of the wallhop movement mechanic as a replacement of the bunnyhop are:
<b>1) It's going to be harder to master</b> Map geometry plays a huge part in the success of each wallhop. The way the skulks interact with geometry makes the outcome of each action doubly as confusing. If a shorter learning curve is the intention behind removing bunnyhop, then surely this an unsuccessful replacement? That's not to say let's remove wallhopping entirely (it has potential), but I do think that an easier and more widely accessible alternative is required.
Not many people will know that continuous wallhopping is in NS1 as well. It was a very difficult skill to master and was pretty much only used by top-top level players. It barely even reached the american competitive scene. We should ask ourselves why because the principle is identical and wall geometry is overwhelmingly plain and simple in NS1. Skulks were also much faster in NS1 and could be unpredictable at speed (i.e. tracking them is harder). In the end, it became less popular as marines grew used to the movement patterns and fast approaches or ambushes were almost always preferred. I don't see how NS2 is going to make wallhopping radically easier to use than it was in NS1 unfortunately and it is a long way away from providing the equivalent advantages. We will basically be mastering a mostly ineffective skill at this rate.
<b>2) It will provide less benefit</b> Wallhopping isn't an effective A to B tool. If it *is* made to confer enough speed, then I can only imagine how ridiculous it will look to see every player spamming jump off walls. Therefore, whether or not it's intentional, the wallhop design lends itself more as a combat tool. In NS1, people got really good at predicting wallhopping and it become increasingly situational so I hope that, if it's the only skill-based movement in NS2, it's improved substantially. However, as RisingSun points out, the floor is everywhere so let's use it.
Yuuki explains it well when talking about time and distance. What avenue of attack do I have if a marine is in the middle of a room/hallway? I have to increase the distance I need to cover in order to get the speed-boost required from wallhopping. In order to make this a beneficial task, wallhopping either needs to generate crazy speed or we need to look at less reliance on walls and such.
<b>3) It's not intuitive at all </b> Why would I go faster by jumping on/off a wall than jumping on the ground? I can see how I might get the first speed boost but arcing it back into the wall is pretty nonsensical. I should point out here that i'm not an intuition-junkie but if this is one of their goals, it's not been reached. If by intuitive, they meant that the actual mouse movement / key presses should make sense, then I don't see why they couldn't just introduce the 'forward' key into the bunnyhopping equation.
---
An obvious solution to the the intuitive and learning-curve argument is to have a comprehensive tutorial. Practice maps, ideally with engaging scripted scenarios, that explain mechanics and offer players the opportunity to practice them in an entertaining way is a really good way of making sure people have an avenue to improve and understand their experience of the game. With the complexities of the powergrid system, damage types, tech-trees, life-forms and so on, it would be extremely foolish not to include a tutorial anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1901268:date=Feb 9 2012, 03:41 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Feb 9 2012, 03:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901268"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With his 949 posts to your 23, that wouldn't be a wise assumption. Anyway, I echo player's concerns about the time-frame in which they plan to smash out some really solid movement mechanics. If they plan to all at all, that is!
---
The irony and failings of the wallhop movement mechanic as a replacement of the bunnyhop are:
<b>1) It's going to be harder to master</b> Map geometry plays a huge part in the success of each wallhop. The way the skulks interact with geometry makes the outcome of each action doubly as confusing. If a shorter learning curve is the intention behind removing bunnyhop, then surely this an unsuccessful replacement? That's not to say let's remove wallhopping entirely (it has potential), but I do think that an easier and more widely accessible alternative is required.
Not many people will know that continuous wallhopping is in NS1 as well. It was a very difficult skill to master and was pretty much only used by top-top level players. It barely even reached the american competitive scene. We should ask ourselves why because the principle is identical and wall geometry is overwhelmingly plain and simple in NS1. Skulks were also much faster in NS1 and could be unpredictable at speed (i.e. tracking them is harder). In the end, it became less popular as marines grew used to the movement patterns and fast approaches or ambushes were almost always preferred. I don't see how NS2 is going to make wallhopping radically easier to use than it was in NS1 unfortunately and it is a long way away from providing the equivalent advantages. We will basically be mastering a mostly ineffective skill at this rate.
<b>2) It will provide less benefit</b> Wallhopping isn't an effective A to B tool. If it *is* made to confer enough speed, then I can only imagine how ridiculous it will look to see every player spamming jump off walls. Therefore, whether or not it's intentional, the wallhop design lends itself more as a combat tool. In NS1, people got really good at predicting wallhopping and it become increasingly situational so I hope that, if it's the only skill-based movement in NS2, it's improved substantially. However, as RisingSun points out, the floor is everywhere so let's use it.
Yuuki explains it well when talking about time and distance. What avenue of attack do I have if a marine is in the middle of a room/hallway? I have to increase the distance I need to cover in order to get the speed-boost required from wallhopping. In order to make this a beneficial task, wallhopping either needs to generate crazy speed or we need to look at less reliance on walls and such.
<b>3) It's not intuitive at all </b> Why would I go faster by jumping on/off a wall than jumping on the ground? I can see how I might get the first speed boost but arcing it back into the wall is pretty nonsensical. I should point out here that i'm not an intuition-junkie but if this is one of their goals, it's not been reached. If by intuitive, they meant that the actual mouse movement / key presses should make sense, then I don't see why they couldn't just introduce the 'forward' key into the bunnyhopping equation.
---
An obvious solution to the the intuitive and learning-curve argument is to have a comprehensive tutorial. Practice maps, ideally with engaging scripted scenarios, that explain mechanics and offer them the opportunity to practice them in an entertaining way is a really good way of making sure people have an avenue to improve and understand their experience of the game. With the complexities of the powergrid system, damage types, tech-trees, life-forms and so on, it would be extremely foolish not to include a tutorial anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very well written and expresses my fears. What i dont understand is how the devs can stick to this aweful subsitute. Please explain yourselfs UWE. To save time you think you would go with the safe and proven option and add later. Why are you guys so damn stubborn on this point?
The bhop thing with no forward button was always a good thing for me, it told me when i was doing it right that i could not only move forward without the key but accelerate!
<!--quoteo(post=1901238:date=Feb 9 2012, 09:33 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Feb 9 2012, 09:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901238"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This has been a pending issue since the alpha-release, and has only become more relevant with each passing day. Now, 6 months before release, they better the hell get cracking at these new 'new mechanics', because so far we've seen diddly squat. You're quick to shoot down the return to bunnyhopping, but have suggested ###### all to use instead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like bunnyhopping but I think wall jumping could be a good replacement that effectively does the same thing but is easier to learn if it's tweaked right. implementing a quake queued jumping or warsow hold to keep jumping type system I think will make wall jumping better and could aide in tweaking it to have a good feel. Getting the same air control as ns1 is important too, it's still not there for ns2.
Marine movement is just too boring and restrictive and doesn't leave any room for skilled defense against what are supposed to be agile melee enemies. As a result it also makes skulking less skilled also as they don't have to learn to counter good marine movement. If the devs really don't want marine jumping as a skill, then perhaps something like right click to dodge like warsow would be good. The rifle butt should be replaced anyway since marines really don't need 2 melee weapons.
<!--quoteo(post=1901277:date=Feb 9 2012, 04:06 PM:name=Pyromaniac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pyromaniac @ Feb 9 2012, 04:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901277"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like bunnyhopping but I think wall jumping could be a good replacement that effectively does the same thing but is easier to learn if it's tweaked right. implementing a quake queued jumping or warsow hold to keep jumping type system I think will make wall jumping better and could aide in tweaking it to have a good feel. Getting the same air control as ns1 is important too, it's still not there for ns2.
Marine movement is just too boring and restrictive and doesn't leave any room for skilled defense against what are supposed to be agile melee enemies. As a result it also makes skulking less skilled also as they don't have to learn to counter good marine movement. If the devs really don't want marine jumping as a skill, then perhaps something like right click to dodge like warsow would be good. The rifle butt should be replaced anyway since marines really don't need 2 melee weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You hit another point. A lot of things are either confused or redundant. The devs need to put the cards on the table and let us help. 6 months (which is counting till the END of summer.) isnt enough time to get everything done. Sorry to say but as it sits now i think the game will need a lot of PR help at release and the patches after that.
I saw a good article or video online explaining putting all your features and thing needing to be done on a list. What needs to be done at release and what can wait. Performance is a big one before release. Working features another one. I think the play style of each class needs to be as well. As stated before and in other threads the roles arent defined well enough and playing a lot of the classes just arent fun. It seems more effort goes into balancing an incomplete game than anything... (performance being another). It seems to simple to fix a lot of these issues but we dont see behind the curtain. My question as in a previous post is let us know what the reason is behind the stubbornness. Can't hurt, can it? We will see the complete game in a max of 6 months. What's to hide?
Now do i expect someone to post in here because i called them out? Hell no, but it would be nice to see something typed up real fast on the progression of this game and where it is headed. Let us help you guys out. Our suggestions always boil down to "NS1 did this better why change it" arguments. I would understand if we were talking about another game but NS1 was your baby. Why change so much and when it isnt working still not change it? Makes no sense unless there is a master plan we dont see.
It would make sense for them to fall back to NS1 for certain things where the current setup is not quite working well yet. They can always revise things in future patches post 1.0, but having a fluid playable game on release is HUGE for having a popular game. Skill based movement is something that can be changed but should really be completed pre-release. Note I am not saying that they need to revert back to NS1 movement but I think they should start discussing openly what their plans are for this, after all there have been countless topics regarding this issue and it will remain one of the biggest issues with the game besides performance.
<!--quoteo(post=1901288:date=Feb 9 2012, 04:46 PM:name=Mkk_Bitestuff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkk_Bitestuff @ Feb 9 2012, 04:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901288"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would make sense for them to fall back to NS1 for certain things where the current setup is not quite working well yet. They can always revise things in future patches post 1.0, but having a fluid playable game on release is HUGE for having a popular game. Skill based movement is something that can be changed but should really be completed pre-release. Note I am not saying that they need to revert back to NS1 movement but I think they should start discussing openly what their plans are for this, after all there have been countless topics regarding this issue and it will remain one of the biggest issues with the game besides performance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My thoughts exactly. Though i am Bhop bias and love the mechanic.
I don't want to see wall jumping go away. I want it to be more reliable and easier to use.
Gorge
Good points all. Especially like the drift.
Lerk
I am kind of liking Lerk flight in that it is simpler. I would prefer I not flap at all but that's my outlook. I think flying creatures just fly like humans walk. The flap should start it but ...you should just steer. Animate the flaps on a timer. I think flying should be free, it's a video game...i'm not in a seagull simulator flying over an ocean.
I like your ideas concerning diving and banking.
Fade
Blink is excellent for travel. It also warms you up for Fade combat if you are rusty.
Onos
I like the momentum thing too. Turning should be easier and arced (maybe a HUD element indicating the turn angle possible). I also think they should be a little more forgiving about grinding to a halt. The best example i can think of is Halo vehicles...they were always a little forgiving if you clipped an edge but if you slammed into something you screeched to a halt.
Addressing BH discussion.
This is BHing... <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea0ByYCPWOA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea0ByYCPWOA</a>
It can be learned but it is not intuitive and it is extremely disconcerting (the waggle).
It is not intuitive...this is always the biggest problem I have had with it. It is not like lean mechanics, dodge mechanics, rocket jump, and double jump mechanics present in other games. These are mechanics that can be explained in a sentence in a forum or over the phone.
Things like steering while falling are intuitive (play mario anyone) and the wall jumping would be intuitive if it functioned more reliably. The charged pounce is not a bad idea.
Instead of constantly arguing for the return of BHing and why it is so great. Focus on the reasons you liked it and come up with new mechanic suggestions or ways to refine the existing ones to have more depth.
The idea behind having depth is having multiple mechanics at your disposal and you choosing the WHEN and WHY they are applied. The HOW should be some simple timing etc.
maybe the skulk should also have the momentum the Onos has but not as powerful. this would help traversing the map and closing the gap.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1901257:date=Feb 9 2012, 05:01 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Feb 9 2012, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901257"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Predictability :</b> You also want to make your trajectory as unpredictable as possible, but we also want to avoid randomness/silliness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, in one sense it needs to be predictable. If you just want to dodge a hitscan weapon, the most effective way is always randomly spamming alternating strafe keys. That makes your movement as unpredictable as it is possible to get. Hitting the strafe keys randomly doesn't really take any practice to do at maximum efficiency however, so it isn't a very good game mechanic. Bunnyhopping introduces a counter-point to that, in that it forces you to move in predictable patterns to gain speed. That's the beauty of it -- that it actually makes you more predictable.
It's good because: (1) Helps balance melee vs. ranged gameplay at all skill levels. (2) Fun for aliens because it rewards time spent practicing, opens up a lot of new movement options (and many other reasons, see link posted earlier in this thread). (3) Fun for marines because it forces skulks into more predictable movement patterns, which makes it easier to get tangible results from practice (as opposed to trying to track skulks hitting the strafe keys randomly, which can be frustrating even for the best marines).
Conversely, unpredictability is one of the big issues with the current walljumping mechanic. While movements toward a wall and away from it are predictable, the way you retain speed while running on the ground afterwards creates big problems. Now you have a situation where you can combine the speed boost with maximum unpredictability through randomly hitting the strafe keys.
Skill based movement in all nex generation games has been removed by companies, simply because it's "skillful". In my honest opinion, the removal of skill based movement is one of the most devestating features to gameplay now a days. I play NS1, Half Life, Counter-Strike, Quake, Unreal tournament, Age of Conan - all skill based movement games, then I make my way over to NS2, Call of Duty, Battlefield 3 and I just want to cry. Realism has taken over the movement factor and has completely revoked the right to move fluidly and skillfully through maps, making for cheese watered down crap gameplay.
Truthfully, I am sick of it and the only reason why I don't play NS2 is not because of the graphics or the netcode or anything else, it's simply because the movement and "feel" of the game is horrendous, it's the biggest turn off since Call of Duty. I just can't do it anymore, I've been gaming since I was 12 years old and I just can't stand by these game developers anymore, that sell out so hard just to make a buck for the mainstream audience. Call me Negative Nancy, a troll, I couldn't care less at this point. I'd rather play nothing than play another game that just sells out to make profit and forgets about what really matters, the gameplay.
I mean CS is 12 years old and the game still has a population that can hold it's own, check the steam statistics. Players continue to go back to it because of the inner gameplay, the skill based movement, the teamwork, the amount of skill each individual gun is required leaving tons of room for evolving as a single player and a team. I don't know what UWE is going to about the movemnt factor, but all I know is, myself and like 10 other buddies don't play the game because we were told when we preordered NS2 at the time, that Bunnyhopping and all that fun stuff was going to be implemented. After they receieved their money, we were then told afterwards that there will be no Bunnyhopping or anything like it, basically killing off the main feature NS1 was founded on.
Skill based gaming is dead, the reason for it boils down to massive waves of noobs handing their money over to game developers. As always, money = the roof of all evil and I truly believe that. I can't even play a video game now a days, the one place tat seems like a free market and a good escape from reality, without having to deal with the bull###### involved. Hollywood is here to destroy the art that we all loved. For those of you that disagree, I feel sorry for you, because truly you never experienced the golden years of gaming. Keep handing these companies your money for gameplay that dies out after 8 months and they rehash another game with a new skin to take more of your money.
Comments
Was kinda how I thought they were trying to do 'walljumping'.
And I already explained to you why what was said was absolutely correct. Nice strawman though, you must be proud of it.
Very good article indeed.
I'm in agreement with Yuuki on stamina/sprint: Either remove stamina for sprint, or remove sprint. I would be happy with either. If you must have sprint stamina, it must have a stamina bar - but I think that stamina as a mechanic isn't very compelling, and generally people dislike stamina bars (or is it that we dislike stamina? I'm not entirely certain). Stamina is more bad than good.
But let's say that we remove sprint for marines, what would be beneficial for them? I would like to give marines a bit of close-quarters manoeuvrability, like for instance a two-pace dash; something that will make it a more viable option than jumping around like an idiot when a skulk is at your toes. For instance, shift+direction makes a marine lean in that direction, and when holding shift and changing to a new direction (e.g. shift+forward -> shift+right), the marine kind of evades and does a long stride in that direction; in effect, kind of like a very-short-distance dash.
With regard to skulk movement... I'm just going to brainstorm an idea, which kind of makes sense physically. At least it does to me.
- Whenever a skulk lands on a surface, and continues to run on a surface, they quickly build up traction up until a maximum level of traction.
- The faster a skulk is moving, the longer it takes to reach the maximum level of traction, i.e. the faster you move, the slower you gain traction.
- Whenever a skulk runs on a surface, they decelerate (constantly?) until a "minimum" maximum velocity (the skulk's default running speed), i.e. if you are moving faster than the default speed, you will (constantly?) decelerate.
- Traction is required to jump effectively, i.e. jumping power is proportional to traction. If you have no traction, your jumps will be mere hops. If you have maximum traction, your jumps will have maximum power.
- Jumping always adds speed to your current speed, and you always jump in your view direction (rather than "up", so kind of like a mini-leap).
- Holding crouch while on a surface will both decelerate you faster, and gain you traction faster. Holding crouch then jumping will also add a bonus to your jumping power.
+ Optional: changing the viewing angle while running full-tilt will not preserve the full forward speed (i.e. changing your viewing angle will decelerate you; should be balanced with faster traction gain), so maintaining and gaining speed while moving in a straight line is a much simpler task though of course much less versatile.
> This should be applicable to any surface, including floors, walls and ceilings.
> There may have to be some visual indication of traction (and possibly even speed), this could be easily done using view-height offsetting (increased traction = lower view-height).
> Traction-gain and deceleration are, on the whole, very fast: i.e. we're talking a couple seconds for deceleration from a maximum effective speed to default running speed. Generally, traction-gain is much faster than deceleration, in order to allow for speed-gain (and speed-maintenance) from jumping.
It is about finding the balance between traction, jumping power, deceleration and current speed, by timing jumps (and crouches) with surface landings, in order to gain or maintain (or even reduce) speed.
With regard to fade movement, I think that Yuuki's fade mod is perfect. I'm not entirely certain there needs to be an added movement mechanic if short-distance blinks become a viable primary mechanic, although the fact that blink is dependent on energy could be problematic (not always available) or beneficial (requires energy management).
The whole, gain an extra jump on higher surfaces, from NS 1 might be a good start. At least you could ascend quickly and there is plenty of geography all through out hallways to facilitate this.
Skulks need something to close gaps in open areas. In tight hallways they have ambush options. When walls are plenty they have the advantage anyway. Help the skulk out with skill base movement that applies in open areas and can be used to traverse the map with relative speed.
Charged Pounce is an option from any surface and a mechanic could be built in to retain speed. Hari mentioned a traction vs speed idea (not going to lie, i dont completely grasp it). Might need more bar indicators that would clutter the hud *maybe*.
Gorge - What if they had a web they could shoot and swing from. Like spiderman? It would be really fun, but could people accept it. Look at the web mod in NS1 for reference.
Lerk - Need better air control and weapons that actually complement flying.
Fade - Yuuki's mod. I like the short burst style. It solves the invul problem better than current implementation.
Onos - Needs tweaking. Not enough to scrap it yet.
It works best in Tram currently, but even there it's quite hard most of the time.
Since it would be very restrictive for mappers to build the walls and ceilings as flat as the floor I would suggest to make the skulk movement a little easier by not removing the momentum once you touch the floor but only if you get shot or stop running.
Bunnyhopping was a useful and fun tool of getting from A to B faster. Brainlessly pressing forward to go from a hive to any location is boring.
It was also a viable option of attack should marines entrench themselves. Non-leap skulks will get slaughtered if no equivalent is implemented before performance improves and aim sky-rockets.
I'd go on to explain why I think bunnyhopping (or an effective alternative) is required but it's all explained better in the nineLegends link: <a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/" target="_blank">http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/</a>
Is this the part where you're an alt-account for Fanatic, or did you feel like posting the same link again and explain what Fana had already said?
Like I also said, these new mechanics may not be perfect now, but I'm sure it will get there. New mechanics, something new to learn and become 'pro' with.
Maps are supposed to get bigger and aliens will lose if they dont get their old mobility back. Aliens dont have anything that warps them to the action like marines do because they always had higher mobility. Phase gates, squad spawning (shudder), beacon, and other things make marine more about getting that foot hold and keep the meat grinder going. Aliens, map control and scouting.
Something needs to be done now so it can be properly tested.
Like I also said, these new mechanics may not be perfect now, but I'm sure it will get there. New mechanics, something new to learn and become 'pro' with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a good link so I reposted it because I want it to get more attention. Is this the part where you explain why there's something wrong with that?
I came off a bit of a ###### with that comment and I apologize, but I didn't see how posting the link twice would grant it more attention.
@Player This is the first time you've posted on this thread and as I haven't read everything you've posted elsewhere, I'll assume you're quick to have the same mechanic brought into NS2 and remove everything that's new.
<b>Range:</b> As the video (www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/) shows, the skill based movement stuff should allow to reach some area of interest that are not otherwise reachable, for example jump from railing A to railing B. You can think of skill based movement to have a specific range (in meters) which comes from the velocity increase, the jump force, etc. This range should be matched to the typical map size, for example if the range is 20 centimeters and the typical distance between map objects is two meters your skill based movement is not very useful.
So, is the range of the current wall jumping big enough? can you think of some example in summit where it allows you to go from point A to point B ?
<b>Travel time :</b> As an attacking skulk you want to minimize the traveling time from the first point where a marine can see you to the the marine itself. Simply because shorter times means less time for the marine to shoot you.
Travel time is given by velocity times distance, so to decrease it you can either increase speed or decrease distance. One problem I can see with the current wall jumping is that going on a wall to get a speed boost often means longer distance to travel, so it's not really useful.
<b>Predictability :</b> You also want to make your trajectory as unpredictable as possible, but we also want to avoid randomness/silliness.
<b>Spam efficiency :</b> Spamming the skill based movement, or failing at using it should be (very) inefficient, otherwise it's not skill based. That's something the current wall jumping is not very good at: you can spam jump to gain speed and do unpredictable trajectories at the same time.
So, is the range of the current wall jumping big enough? can you think of some example in summit where it allows you to go from point A to point B ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is not the wall jumping range. I don't know it, but I'd say the maps in NS1 were (at least in part) designed around bhopping, while in NS2 you can't even be sure yet if the wall jumping will stay in the game at all.
You and me both. Not like the devs weigh in on these topics. Time for them to let us know what the plan is. 6 months flies by.
<b>Range:</b> As the video (www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/) shows, the skill based movement stuff should allow to reach some area of interest that are not otherwise reachable, for example jump from railing A to railing B. You can think of skill based movement to have a specific range (in meters) which comes from the velocity increase, the jump force, etc. This range should be matched to the typical map size, for example if the range is 20 centimeters and the typical distance between map objects is two meters your skill based movement is not very useful.
So, is the range of the current wall jumping big enough? can you think of some example in summit where it allows you to go from point A to point B ?
<b>Travel time :</b> As an attacking skulk you want to minimize the traveling time from the first point where a marine can see you to the the marine itself. Simply because shorter times means less time for the marine to shoot you.
Travel time is given by velocity times distance, so to decrease it you can either increase speed or decrease distance. One problem I can see with the current wall jumping is that going on a wall to get a speed boost often means longer distance to travel, so it's not really useful.
<b>Predictability :</b> You also want to make your trajectory as unpredictable as possible, but we also want to avoid randomness/silliness.
<b>Spam efficiency :</b> Spamming the skill based movement, or failing at using it should be (very) inefficient, otherwise it's not skill based. That's something the current wall jumping is not very good at: you can spam jump to gain speed and do unpredictable trajectories at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You bring up another good point. Predictability, if to move fast the skulk needs a wall, not only is that easy to see where he is going but exposes the huge skulk model to line of fire.
With his 949 posts to your 23, that wouldn't be a wise assumption. Anyway, I echo player's concerns about the time-frame in which they plan to smash out some really solid movement mechanics. If they plan to all at all, that is!
---
The irony and failings of the wallhop movement mechanic as a replacement of the bunnyhop are:
<b>1) It's going to be harder to master</b>
Map geometry plays a huge part in the success of each wallhop. The way the skulks interact with geometry makes the outcome of each action doubly as confusing. If a shorter learning curve is the intention behind removing bunnyhop, then surely this an unsuccessful replacement? That's not to say let's remove wallhopping entirely (it has potential), but I do think that an easier and more widely accessible alternative is required.
Not many people will know that continuous wallhopping is in NS1 as well. It was a very difficult skill to master and was pretty much only used by top-top level players. It barely even reached the american competitive scene. We should ask ourselves why because the principle is identical and wall geometry is overwhelmingly plain and simple in NS1. Skulks were also much faster in NS1 and could be unpredictable at speed (i.e. tracking them is harder). In the end, it became less popular as marines grew used to the movement patterns and fast approaches or ambushes were almost always preferred. I don't see how NS2 is going to make wallhopping radically easier to use than it was in NS1 unfortunately and it is a long way away from providing the equivalent advantages. We will basically be mastering a mostly ineffective skill at this rate.
<b>2) It will provide less benefit</b>
Wallhopping isn't an effective A to B tool. If it *is* made to confer enough speed, then I can only imagine how ridiculous it will look to see every player spamming jump off walls. Therefore, whether or not it's intentional, the wallhop design lends itself more as a combat tool. In NS1, people got really good at predicting wallhopping and it become increasingly situational so I hope that, if it's the only skill-based movement in NS2, it's improved substantially. However, as RisingSun points out, the floor is everywhere so let's use it.
Yuuki explains it well when talking about time and distance. What avenue of attack do I have if a marine is in the middle of a room/hallway? I have to increase the distance I need to cover in order to get the speed-boost required from wallhopping. In order to make this a beneficial task, wallhopping either needs to generate crazy speed or we need to look at less reliance on walls and such.
<b>3) It's not intuitive at all </b>
Why would I go faster by jumping on/off a wall than jumping on the ground? I can see how I might get the first speed boost but arcing it back into the wall is pretty nonsensical. I should point out here that i'm not an intuition-junkie but if this is one of their goals, it's not been reached. If by intuitive, they meant that the actual mouse movement / key presses should make sense, then I don't see why they couldn't just introduce the 'forward' key into the bunnyhopping equation.
---
An obvious solution to the the intuitive and learning-curve argument is to have a comprehensive tutorial. Practice maps, ideally with engaging scripted scenarios, that explain mechanics and offer players the opportunity to practice them in an entertaining way is a really good way of making sure people have an avenue to improve and understand their experience of the game. With the complexities of the powergrid system, damage types, tech-trees, life-forms and so on, it would be extremely foolish not to include a tutorial anyway.
---
The irony and failings of the wallhop movement mechanic as a replacement of the bunnyhop are:
<b>1) It's going to be harder to master</b>
Map geometry plays a huge part in the success of each wallhop. The way the skulks interact with geometry makes the outcome of each action doubly as confusing. If a shorter learning curve is the intention behind removing bunnyhop, then surely this an unsuccessful replacement? That's not to say let's remove wallhopping entirely (it has potential), but I do think that an easier and more widely accessible alternative is required.
Not many people will know that continuous wallhopping is in NS1 as well. It was a very difficult skill to master and was pretty much only used by top-top level players. It barely even reached the american competitive scene. We should ask ourselves why because the principle is identical and wall geometry is overwhelmingly plain and simple in NS1. Skulks were also much faster in NS1 and could be unpredictable at speed (i.e. tracking them is harder). In the end, it became less popular as marines grew used to the movement patterns and fast approaches or ambushes were almost always preferred. I don't see how NS2 is going to make wallhopping radically easier to use than it was in NS1 unfortunately and it is a long way away from providing the equivalent advantages. We will basically be mastering a mostly ineffective skill at this rate.
<b>2) It will provide less benefit</b>
Wallhopping isn't an effective A to B tool. If it *is* made to confer enough speed, then I can only imagine how ridiculous it will look to see every player spamming jump off walls. Therefore, whether or not it's intentional, the wallhop design lends itself more as a combat tool. In NS1, people got really good at predicting wallhopping and it become increasingly situational so I hope that, if it's the only skill-based movement in NS2, it's improved substantially. However, as RisingSun points out, the floor is everywhere so let's use it.
Yuuki explains it well when talking about time and distance. What avenue of attack do I have if a marine is in the middle of a room/hallway? I have to increase the distance I need to cover in order to get the speed-boost required from wallhopping. In order to make this a beneficial task, wallhopping either needs to generate crazy speed or we need to look at less reliance on walls and such.
<b>3) It's not intuitive at all </b>
Why would I go faster by jumping on/off a wall than jumping on the ground? I can see how I might get the first speed boost but arcing it back into the wall is pretty nonsensical. I should point out here that i'm not an intuition-junkie but if this is one of their goals, it's not been reached. If by intuitive, they meant that the actual mouse movement / key presses should make sense, then I don't see why they couldn't just introduce the 'forward' key into the bunnyhopping equation.
---
An obvious solution to the the intuitive and learning-curve argument is to have a comprehensive tutorial. Practice maps, ideally with engaging scripted scenarios, that explain mechanics and offer them the opportunity to practice them in an entertaining way is a really good way of making sure people have an avenue to improve and understand their experience of the game. With the complexities of the powergrid system, damage types, tech-trees, life-forms and so on, it would be extremely foolish not to include a tutorial anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very well written and expresses my fears. What i dont understand is how the devs can stick to this aweful subsitute. Please explain yourselfs UWE. To save time you think you would go with the safe and proven option and add later. Why are you guys so damn stubborn on this point?
The bhop thing with no forward button was always a good thing for me, it told me when i was doing it right that i could not only move forward without the key but accelerate!
Marine movement is just too boring and restrictive and doesn't leave any room for skilled defense against what are supposed to be agile melee enemies. As a result it also makes skulking less skilled also as they don't have to learn to counter good marine movement. If the devs really don't want marine jumping as a skill, then perhaps something like right click to dodge like warsow would be good. The rifle butt should be replaced anyway since marines really don't need 2 melee weapons.
Marine movement is just too boring and restrictive and doesn't leave any room for skilled defense against what are supposed to be agile melee enemies. As a result it also makes skulking less skilled also as they don't have to learn to counter good marine movement. If the devs really don't want marine jumping as a skill, then perhaps something like right click to dodge like warsow would be good. The rifle butt should be replaced anyway since marines really don't need 2 melee weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You hit another point. A lot of things are either confused or redundant. The devs need to put the cards on the table and let us help. 6 months (which is counting till the END of summer.) isnt enough time to get everything done. Sorry to say but as it sits now i think the game will need a lot of PR help at release and the patches after that.
I saw a good article or video online explaining putting all your features and thing needing to be done on a list. What needs to be done at release and what can wait. Performance is a big one before release. Working features another one. I think the play style of each class needs to be as well. As stated before and in other threads the roles arent defined well enough and playing a lot of the classes just arent fun. It seems more effort goes into balancing an incomplete game than anything... (performance being another). It seems to simple to fix a lot of these issues but we dont see behind the curtain. My question as in a previous post is let us know what the reason is behind the stubbornness. Can't hurt, can it? We will see the complete game in a max of 6 months. What's to hide?
Now do i expect someone to post in here because i called them out? Hell no, but it would be nice to see something typed up real fast on the progression of this game and where it is headed. Let us help you guys out. Our suggestions always boil down to "NS1 did this better why change it" arguments. I would understand if we were talking about another game but NS1 was your baby. Why change so much and when it isnt working still not change it? Makes no sense unless there is a master plan we dont see.
My thoughts exactly. Though i am Bhop bias and love the mechanic.
Skulk
I don't want to see wall jumping go away. I want it to be more reliable and easier to use.
Gorge
Good points all. Especially like the drift.
Lerk
I am kind of liking Lerk flight in that it is simpler.
I would prefer I not flap at all but that's my outlook. I think flying creatures just fly like humans walk.
The flap should start it but ...you should just steer. Animate the flaps on a timer.
I think flying should be free, it's a video game...i'm not in a seagull simulator flying over an ocean.
I like your ideas concerning diving and banking.
Fade
Blink is excellent for travel. It also warms you up for Fade combat if you are rusty.
Onos
I like the momentum thing too. Turning should be easier and arced (maybe a HUD element indicating the turn angle possible).
I also think they should be a little more forgiving about grinding to a halt.
The best example i can think of is Halo vehicles...they were always a little forgiving if you clipped an edge but if you slammed into something you screeched to a halt.
Addressing BH discussion.
This is BHing...
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea0ByYCPWOA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea0ByYCPWOA</a>
It can be learned but it is not intuitive and it is extremely disconcerting (the waggle).
It is not intuitive...this is always the biggest problem I have had with it.
It is not like lean mechanics, dodge mechanics, rocket jump, and double jump mechanics present in other games.
These are mechanics that can be explained in a sentence in a forum or over the phone.
Things like steering while falling are intuitive (play mario anyone)
and the wall jumping would be intuitive if it functioned more reliably.
The charged pounce is not a bad idea.
Instead of constantly arguing for the return of BHing and why it is so great.
Focus on the reasons you liked it and come up with new mechanic suggestions
or ways to refine the existing ones to have more depth.
The idea behind having depth is having multiple mechanics at your disposal and you choosing the WHEN and WHY they are applied.
The HOW should be some simple timing etc.
maybe the skulk should also have the momentum the Onos has but not as powerful.
this would help traversing the map and closing the gap.
Actually, in one sense it needs to be predictable. If you just want to dodge a hitscan weapon, the most effective way is always randomly spamming alternating strafe keys. That makes your movement as unpredictable as it is possible to get. Hitting the strafe keys randomly doesn't really take any practice to do at maximum efficiency however, so it isn't a very good game mechanic. Bunnyhopping introduces a counter-point to that, in that it forces you to move in predictable patterns to gain speed. That's the beauty of it -- that it actually makes you more predictable.
It's good because:
(1) Helps balance melee vs. ranged gameplay at all skill levels.
(2) Fun for aliens because it rewards time spent practicing, opens up a lot of new movement options (and many other reasons, see link posted earlier in this thread).
(3) Fun for marines because it forces skulks into more predictable movement patterns, which makes it easier to get tangible results from practice (as opposed to trying to track skulks hitting the strafe keys randomly, which can be frustrating even for the best marines).
Conversely, unpredictability is one of the big issues with the current walljumping mechanic. While movements toward a wall and away from it are predictable, the way you retain speed while running on the ground afterwards creates big problems. Now you have a situation where you can combine the speed boost with maximum unpredictability through randomly hitting the strafe keys.
Truthfully, I am sick of it and the only reason why I don't play NS2 is not because of the graphics or the netcode or anything else, it's simply because the movement and "feel" of the game is horrendous, it's the biggest turn off since Call of Duty. I just can't do it anymore, I've been gaming since I was 12 years old and I just can't stand by these game developers anymore, that sell out so hard just to make a buck for the mainstream audience. Call me Negative Nancy, a troll, I couldn't care less at this point. I'd rather play nothing than play another game that just sells out to make profit and forgets about what really matters, the gameplay.
I mean CS is 12 years old and the game still has a population that can hold it's own, check the steam statistics. Players continue to go back to it because of the inner gameplay, the skill based movement, the teamwork, the amount of skill each individual gun is required leaving tons of room for evolving as a single player and a team. I don't know what UWE is going to about the movemnt factor, but all I know is, myself and like 10 other buddies don't play the game because we were told when we preordered NS2 at the time, that Bunnyhopping and all that fun stuff was going to be implemented. After they receieved their money, we were then told afterwards that there will be no Bunnyhopping or anything like it, basically killing off the main feature NS1 was founded on.
Skill based gaming is dead, the reason for it boils down to massive waves of noobs handing their money over to game developers. As always, money = the roof of all evil and I truly believe that. I can't even play a video game now a days, the one place tat seems like a free market and a good escape from reality, without having to deal with the bull###### involved. Hollywood is here to destroy the art that we all loved. For those of you that disagree, I feel sorry for you, because truly you never experienced the golden years of gaming. Keep handing these companies your money for gameplay that dies out after 8 months and they rehash another game with a new skin to take more of your money.