Alien sight (flashlight) too good - game visuals cannot be enjoyed :)
Licho
Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3858Members, NS1 Playtester
Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3858Members, NS1 Playtester
Alien sight appears to be very good and very useful for aliens to quickly orient in the environment.
I asked couple of players and it appears most people play with it almost always enabled.
I think its a shame that this mode "hides" all the visual prettiness of the game.
Perhaps alien vision could only highlight marines/structures - something more similar to HL NS.
I asked couple of players and it appears most people play with it almost always enabled.
I think its a shame that this mode "hides" all the visual prettiness of the game.
Perhaps alien vision could only highlight marines/structures - something more similar to HL NS.
Comments
If I were to do anything, I would tone down the brightness, and make the effect on textures and props slightly transparent. Then, I would add a border type effect around the edges, something like the veins of an eyeball mixed with that infestation tentacle art to make it look like the alien is straining their eyes to produce the effect.
Most importantly I'd address the brightness....
Here's a link to twiliteblue's mod:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=114172&st=0" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...114172&st=0</a>
And here's an interesting snippet from that thread by Charlie:
"Cool adjustments. Considering this."
So there ya go. It seems they atleast recognize the shader is intense and will probably revamp it before release.
What's to say that I shouldn't be able to make things tough for a skulk in the dark by keeping my flashlight off, and forcing him to fight me on the 'low light' terms? If I try that, he just has to push F and get a huge advantage over me.
I know it's a predator homage, and it helps them work under spores and all that, but it seems like it simplifies things way too much.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115930" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=115930</a>
The question you have to ask yourself is <b>why</b> do you want players to turn off their alien vision?
- Because it looks like Tron? That's simply a problem of visuals, and easily fixed.[1]
- Because it confers too much of an advantage? That's more of a problem with having darkness as a (binary) game mechanic.[2]
[1] "game visuals cannot be enjoyed" is not a good reason to gimp alien vision in any way. It is, however, a good reason to improve the visuals of alien vision. See twiliteblue's mod for a good first pass. I've written about this:
<!--quoteo(post=1896686:date=Jan 23 2012, 02:56 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 23 2012, 02:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are two main features of alien vision that make it so useful:
- It highlights edges: adding sharp contrast between edges and surfaces.
- It differentiates entities from geometry by colour/shade, and homogenises the textures of entities (creating almost a silhouette): adding sharp contrast between entities and geometry, and making entities visually striking. * In twiliteblue's mod, this is somewhat more subtle because of transparency, but none of the contrast is really lost.
Any implementation that kept these two features would retain AV's utility, no matter how subtle the actual visual effects are.
A natural consequence of twiliteblue's mod is that the effect is more noticeable (and therefore more useful) in darker areas and less noticeable in lighter areas - this is, I would say, working as intended.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Another helpful feature would be to enhance depth perception.
[2] "cheapens powered-down rooms and makes them strictly alien-favoured", however, <b>is</b> a good reason to revisit alien vision as a gameplay mechanic. I've written about this before:
<!--quoteo(post=1898747:date=Feb 2 2012, 10:54 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 2 2012, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898747"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think I see the real problem with darkness (and other mechanics in Natural Selection, such as cloaking): it's that it's a binary game mechanic. There are two states: light (everyone can see) or dark (marines cannot see). In the first case, this is a level playing field (sort of, not really considering melee vs range here), that's why the game is (relatively) fun. The second case is almost certainly an unbalanced playing field. You could say that the second case helps to balance the melee vs range issue, but the fact remains that it is binary: so either aliens have the advantage, or marines have the advantage. A better approach (on paper) would be to have a unary game mechanic (everyone always plays on the same field), or a ternary game mechanic (each side can gain an advantage): in the latter approach, the perfectly level playing field is the primary playing field (and accounts for the vast majority of the playtime), while the secondary playing fields only grant a team a small, temporary and reversible advantage (to tip the scales). The question is, how would you actually approach such a system in practice (edit: while preserving the asymmetry of the teams)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regardless, I don't think any implementation of alien vision should have any artificial disadvantages, and I've discussed this thoroughly in the thread I linked above.
On a related side-note, the atmospherics for third-person marine flashlight should be disabled or heavily toned down.
Having these disadvantages does not lead to meaningful choices: you are either severely gimped (cannot see anything, i.e. darkness), or partially gimped (i.e. flashlight blinding teammates, alerting aliens; darkvision causing you to be unable to see particle effects and looking like Tron)
IMO the current effect needs to be scrapped and replaced with something subtler that enhances visibility of marines without changing the scenery much if at all. Aliens don't need full night-vision because rooms aren't pitch black for that long anyway - all they need is marines to be highlighted. Just put a nice looking glow effect on marines, maybe reduce the visibility of spores/flames, and call it a day. Personally I wouldn't mind if we ditched the flashlight button and just made this permanent, but if you want a drawback you can come up with something else like disabling hive sight while it's active. Whatever the case, something has to be done to save aliens from playing in a world of green and orange all the time: it's visually tiring and makes it difficult to parse important information like hit indicators and incoming damage.
Agreed 100%, this is why I roam with alien vision most the time unless I'm a Gorge.
Kinda like wyattx3's idea.
Skulks are like a TRex didnt you know? DONT MOVE!
You should be constantly switching between hivesight and normal vision as an alien.
no to ieptbarakat ^
<b>Alien vision uses stamina.</b> Problem of overuse solved!
Also I endorse this:
<!--quoteo(post=1901953:date=Feb 10 2012, 06:59 PM:name=Krizzen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krizzen @ Feb 10 2012, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901953"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=114172&st=0" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...114172&st=0</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Finally, how about a *very* faint noise emanating from, and around the alien (it is echolocation, right?). Make sure it's not easy to track the exact position of the alien as there are audiophiles among us that can locate easily by sound. This would balance with the factor of marine flashlights giving them away.
Set a time limit or something
Maybe it fades away say over 30 secs and can only be used once per min or so
maybe it the aliens make a sound when enabled so marines can hear where they were at
i mean, active sonar would translate roughly to auditory stimulus right?
I would like to see alien vision permanently augmented to something even more toned-down (no flashlight... just a always on, but much more subtle effect).
<!--quoteo(post=1902001:date=Feb 11 2012, 11:48 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 11 2012, 11:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1902001"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FF4444--><span style="color:#FF4444"><!--/coloro-->The question you have to ask yourself is <b>why</b> do you want players to turn off their alien vision?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
- Because it looks like Tron? That's simply a problem of visuals, and easily fixed.[1]
- Because it confers too much of an advantage? That's more of a problem with having darkness as a (binary) game mechanic.[2]
[1] "game visuals cannot be enjoyed" is not a good reason to gimp alien vision in any way. It is, however, a good reason to improve the visuals of alien vision. See twiliteblue's mod for a good first pass.
[2] "cheapens powered-down rooms and makes them strictly alien-favoured", however, <b>is</b> a good reason to revisit alien vision <i>(rather, darkness)</i> as a <i>(binary)</i> gameplay mechanic.
<!--coloro:#4444FF--><span style="color:#4444FF"><!--/coloro-->Regardless, I don't think any implementation of alien vision should have any artificial disadvantages<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, and I've discussed this thoroughly in the thread I linked above.
On a related side-note, the atmospherics for third-person marine flashlight should be disabled or heavily toned down.
<!--coloro:#44FF44--><span style="color:#44FF44"><!--/coloro-->Having these disadvantages does not lead to meaningful choices<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->: you are either severely gimped (cannot see anything, i.e. darkness), or partially gimped (i.e. flashlight blinding teammates, alerting aliens; darkvision causing you to be unable to see particle <i>and lighting</i> effects and looking like Tron)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also read <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115930&view=findpost&p=1896333" target="_blank">this</a> (why giving alien vision a disadvantage is a bad idea) and <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115930&view=findpost&p=1896686" target="_blank">this</a> (how to improve the visuals of alien vision).
<!--quoteo(post=1902562:date=Feb 13 2012, 04:48 PM:name=Rokiyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rokiyo @ Feb 13 2012, 04:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1902562"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would like to see alien vision permanently augmented to something even more toned-down (no flashlight... just a always on, but much more subtle effect).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Aliens want to destroy power nodes (light goes off)
Marines want to repair power nodes (light goes on)
Why the hell should we cripple aliens in the dark, by adding a disadvantage to their night vision? Besides that would completely take away the intentional added advantage for the aliens, this hasn't to be symmetrical! Aliens focus on melee, darkness is good for melee combat and bad for long range combat. So can't you see it? Its there on purpose. You don't even need to call it a "binary game mechanic" (it isn't) It is an advantage. A one-hit-kill is binary. But I have killed more than one alien in a completely dark room. So it is ONE aspect of advantages and disadvantages. It's analog and the same cause, why it doesn't make sense to say that the lvl1 Damage upgrade is a binary game mechanic, because it favors only the marines. There is alway many facts, many advantages and disadvantages to a situation. Just because you can point of 2 states (having a shotgun, having none) does not make it a binary game mechanic.
But back to topic. We don't need a disadvantage trying to force players in a direction. We need to get to the root of the problem. And that simply is:
10% opacity on textures and effects (so you can see beautiful graphic, flashlights and look through spore clouds). If this gives the aliens an advantage in dark areas, so what? Are you really arguing that a marine should rambo in a dark room and have a fair chance against an alien? WTF? There are 10 seconds without light and you really think that shouldn't give the aliens an advantage?
I agree to that!
If you do anything else, ppl will just turn it on and see only what is visible in alien vision the whole game.
So you have to ask yourself why is alienvision being used when lights are on ?
There are 2 reasons, 1 is that alienvision makes it very easy to keep track of marines when you are attacking them, the 2nd reason is that without alienvision its really easy to lose sight of the marine your attacking. With the bite animation and being in close proximity to the marine, and with you strafing/jumping/changing direction and constant movement in order to make it hard for them to shoot you, you end up getting dis-orientated and lose track of the target which can be deadly for a skulk.
I think all this can be solved if we make Alienvision useless in lights on rooms and make lights on rooms alot brighter, this would help both marines and aliens
To compensate for the brighter rooms, make the red emergency lighting darker or change it to some type of spot lighting. This would give aliens more of an advantage in the dark and it would force marines to use flashlights more often. This would also increase the importance of killing powernodes for aliens.
Which i'll be honest, when i first pre ordered the spec edition from all the posts and screens regarding dynamic lighting and flashlights and power grids etc i seriously thought it would be a major feature, now people and the devs themselves dont want dark gameplay because players can't see the nice artwork. (which is very pretty, and i disagree with considering the flashlight and what alien vision can be modded to accomplish) and because of reasons x and y etc.
i plan on making a simple mod post 1.0 that will be a darkness mod. no red emergency lighting, just pitch black. marines in very light rooms, where aliens have distinct disadvantages and gameplay revolves around this light and dark play. (yes i know some will attempt gamma hacks, its just the nature of the beast)
Also read <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115930&view=findpost&p=1896333" target="_blank">this</a> (why giving alien vision a disadvantage is a bad idea) and <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115930&view=findpost&p=1896686" target="_blank">this</a> (how to improve the visuals of alien vision).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well, I suppose it should be always on instead then? Or at least default to on.
@mushookees: That's all well and good, but then you need to consider that aliens are melee while marines are ranged, meaning that they already have an inherent disadvantage, which I discussed in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115930&view=findpost&p=1896333" target="_blank">this post</a> already.
@_Necro_: A binary mechanic, in this case, refers to the fact that there are two states: marine advantage, alien advantage. Neither of these is a level playing field, which is why it makes it a fairly poor competitive multiplayer mechanic. You want a unary mechanic (neither side ever has an advantage, always an equal playing field), or a ternary mechanic (the game is usually played on an equal playing field, but each side can gain a small, temporary advantage).
I think I pasted this on the first page already, but whatever, it can't hurt:
<!--quoteo(post=1898747:date=Feb 2 2012, 10:54 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 2 2012, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898747"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think I see the real problem with darkness (and other mechanics in Natural Selection, such as cloaking): it's that it's a binary game mechanic. There are two states: light (everyone can see) or dark (marines cannot see). In the first case, this is a level playing field (sort of, not really considering melee vs range here), that's why the game is (relatively) fun. The second case is almost certainly an unbalanced playing field. You could say that the second case helps to balance the melee vs range issue, but the fact remains that it is binary: so either aliens have the advantage, or marines have the advantage. A better approach (on paper) would be to have a unary game mechanic (everyone always plays on the same field), or a ternary game mechanic (each side can gain an advantage): in the latter approach, the perfectly level playing field is the primary playing field (and accounts for the vast majority of the playtime), while the secondary playing fields only grant a team a small, temporary and reversible advantage (to tip the scales). The question is, how would you actually approach such a system in practice (edit: while preserving the asymmetry of the teams)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
of the like......15 minutes I have as aliens I have to agree.
make the textures DETAILS still there.. but just make everything orange and yellow.