Why do marines have so many ways to lose?
IronHorse
Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<div class="IPBDescription">power nodes, IPs, comm chairs vs. one Hive</div>I've heard this brought up before, but i don't think with any real discussion or analyzing, and after a game last night it became really obvious to me:
<u>Why do the marines have three "Kings" on their chess board, while aliens only have one?</u>
<i>By this, I mean Marines have the comm chair, IPs, and power node vulnerable to destruction which will cease spawning marines, while aliens only have a hive.</i>
It seems so imbalanced but yet i haven't noticed any real impact until last night when i saw aliens rush sub access late game and bile bomb/skulk the power node. Our huge lead as marines was for nothing as they shut us down right there, so easily, and without even entering our base. <b>What good is map control as the point of this game if its subverted so easily?? Power nodes should relate to map control and structures, not spawning, just like cysts</b>
One might say this is a topic of "why do we even have power nodes in bases? why cant the techpoints be our source of power for that room? it would solve so much" well i thought that too but it is only one part of it. Another game a skulk rush took out our IPs and then just took their time picking off our team, And finally i saw two gorges bile bomb the comm chair to death before we could even beacon back.... all I was left with was: why do marines have so many ways to instantly lose a game/stop spawning in comparison to aliens?
I know what you're thinking: aliens have eggs, shoot those! .. yea but shooting a single egg does not stop all spawning like killing a single IP does.
So I see an issue, one in which others complain about, but I am scarce on suggestions so I invite ideas.
here are my only ones:
<ul><li>Remove power nodes from areas where there is a tech point, it can be explained intuitively (with the same pulsating grid effect) and mythologically - giving greater importance once again to tech points at the same time. <b>There is no equivalent to this weakness on the alien team.<u> Power nodes should relate to map control, not spawning, just like cysts</u></b></li><li>Increase hp of IPs. there are only one or two of them, wheras aliens have many weaker ones. The asymmetry must be maintained, and in it's current form is not imo. its just too easy for two rushing skulks to take down an IP and the focus should still be on the comm chair primarily, much like the Hive - <b>IF </b>asymmetry is to be followed.( I highly recommend alternatives to HP increase like IP telefragging or electrifying IPs temporarily etc.)</li><li>And finally, I know hives and comm chairs' HP were lowered previously to solve stalemate issues - this was a temporary fix though, right? Now that things are more balanced and there are more features and game enders (jet packs, onos etc) we dont need the "Kings" on the chessboard to be so easily destroyed - <u>it should require teamwork to take down either of these, not one marine with a shotty or one bile bombing gorge.</u></li></ul>
<u>Why do the marines have three "Kings" on their chess board, while aliens only have one?</u>
<i>By this, I mean Marines have the comm chair, IPs, and power node vulnerable to destruction which will cease spawning marines, while aliens only have a hive.</i>
It seems so imbalanced but yet i haven't noticed any real impact until last night when i saw aliens rush sub access late game and bile bomb/skulk the power node. Our huge lead as marines was for nothing as they shut us down right there, so easily, and without even entering our base. <b>What good is map control as the point of this game if its subverted so easily?? Power nodes should relate to map control and structures, not spawning, just like cysts</b>
One might say this is a topic of "why do we even have power nodes in bases? why cant the techpoints be our source of power for that room? it would solve so much" well i thought that too but it is only one part of it. Another game a skulk rush took out our IPs and then just took their time picking off our team, And finally i saw two gorges bile bomb the comm chair to death before we could even beacon back.... all I was left with was: why do marines have so many ways to instantly lose a game/stop spawning in comparison to aliens?
I know what you're thinking: aliens have eggs, shoot those! .. yea but shooting a single egg does not stop all spawning like killing a single IP does.
So I see an issue, one in which others complain about, but I am scarce on suggestions so I invite ideas.
here are my only ones:
<ul><li>Remove power nodes from areas where there is a tech point, it can be explained intuitively (with the same pulsating grid effect) and mythologically - giving greater importance once again to tech points at the same time. <b>There is no equivalent to this weakness on the alien team.<u> Power nodes should relate to map control, not spawning, just like cysts</u></b></li><li>Increase hp of IPs. there are only one or two of them, wheras aliens have many weaker ones. The asymmetry must be maintained, and in it's current form is not imo. its just too easy for two rushing skulks to take down an IP and the focus should still be on the comm chair primarily, much like the Hive - <b>IF </b>asymmetry is to be followed.( I highly recommend alternatives to HP increase like IP telefragging or electrifying IPs temporarily etc.)</li><li>And finally, I know hives and comm chairs' HP were lowered previously to solve stalemate issues - this was a temporary fix though, right? Now that things are more balanced and there are more features and game enders (jet packs, onos etc) we dont need the "Kings" on the chessboard to be so easily destroyed - <u>it should require teamwork to take down either of these, not one marine with a shotty or one bile bombing gorge.</u></li></ul>
Comments
That makes 2 ways, eggs are WAY more vulnerable than IP and powernodes.
if the egg is taking damage make it so nothing can spawn from it?
That makes 2 ways, eggs are WAY more vulnerable than IP and powernodes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you didnt read my whole post, did you?
<!--quoteo(post=1903206:date=Feb 14 2012, 05:10 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 14 2012, 05:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903206"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u>I know what you're thinking: aliens have eggs, shoot those! .. yea but shooting a single egg does not stop all spawning like killing a single IP does.</u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
in fact, killing EVERY skulk egg STILL does not stop all spawning like killing a single IP does.
read before you post please
Perhaps the raising of HP on CCs is warranted. A starting IP in the next patch should help with this situation as well.
true, but only in one of those scenarios can a team take out the other team's ability to spawn in three different ways. this is an inequality.
<!--quoteo(post=1903216:date=Feb 14 2012, 05:27 PM:name={LoC}Blue_Leader)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ({LoC}Blue_Leader @ Feb 14 2012, 05:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903216"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really dislike how eating the base power node results in a almost surefire win for the Alien team, you'd think a backup generator for the base power would be a priority so people can at least keep spawning. =/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
exactly what i'm talking about. its an easy, cheesy win for aliens, and its only one of three ways to do it.
Indeed rushing in general is a very viable tactic and is often likewise very frustrating to the team being its victim, but besides slightly tweaking health values, lets see some more features included into the game before rework fundamental game mechanics to shut-down a traditionally legitimate strategy.
I agree. CC should provide backup power that allows IPs to continue operating even when the power node is destroyed (or perhaps have this as an upgrade to the CC). This gives further incentive to build additional CCs beyond just the extra nano shields.
I also agree with CCs having more health. Rushes should require the <i>entire</i> team, or most of it, as well as perfect timing and coordination amongst players. Right now it's just too easy to pull off a rush -- I've seen plenty of games where an unquestionably superior marine team lost right as they were about to take down the final hive. And it was all because a few aliens ran to base -- no planning or anything. Too easy.
Indeed rushing in general is a very viable tactic and is often likewise very frustrating to the team being its victim, but besides slightly tweaking health values, lets see some more features included into the game before rework fundamental game mechanics to shut-down a traditionally legitimate strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
im not against rushing as a viable tactic at all.
i am against three different ways to stop spawning for marines.
even if the scenario you explained only had one available hive to spawn from (this is also another source of contention, multiple hives = multiple locations to spawn. you never see IPs away from the ONE base) you still have an entirely huge room filled with eggs randomly in spots you may not know about, and may not be fast enough to get to before they spawn. and secondly, even IF you managed to destroy all eggs and there wasnt another hive and no other aliens were running at unequal incredible speeds back into base, the alien team's ability to respawn again is NOT turned off! Much unlike an IP, whereas once its destroyed, no more automatic spawning. the Comm chair does not automatically spawn players like the hive does. you have the added meta game as a commander of somehow trying to re build an IP with aliens in base, using slower marines across the map, or maybe you risk everything and jump out?
thanks for the well thought out reply, i definitely get your point of dramatically "effecting" spawning, but it still doesnt have the same impact as an IP, and there aren't three different ways to do it, either.
Even if there were 2 ways -which as i explained above, there isnt - that'd still be 2 -3. :)
thanks for the replies, guys
great idea! this is what i'm talking about, i knew i wasn't considering everything.
only issue as an upgrade: doesnt help early skulk rushes.
placing importance on the comm chair in regards to spawning, as i mentioned in OP, would definitely encourage marines' motivation for map control, slightly curtailing turtling.
i agree, but there is still the issue of power nodes in base - what are the aliens' equivalence to this?
Closest comparison would probably be Cysts.
But unlike power nodes, you can take out one cyst in the hallway leading out of a hive (an activity that takes approx. 2 seconds) and kill every structure, defense, and harvester it supports, permanently, barring intervention.
Marines are vulnerable to having their spawns shut down; Kharaa are vulnerable to losing large swaths of map.
F.e. the Obs. You can use it 2 ways, as a scanner to help your team against those ###### Shade cloak (ok you need 2 then) or as a very weak beacon producer. And the beacon is usless if the team is dead because if you trigger it marines spawn at the IP and not in the room.
The problems with the powernode could be easy changed by placing them f.e. near the techpoint or in a covered area.
Your argument about the eggs is false. It takes some time for a spawning egg to be ready to hatch, in this time 1 marine can kill it, empty 1 or 2 mags in the hive and kill the next spawning egg.
I enden so many times a game alone (with the help of the com) by just walking in the hive shotgun all eggs kill the alien commander logingoff and then doing what I wrote above.
But it is true that aliens have 4chances (4th is if armslab goes down and you have a very good fade), and the marines "only" 1. That is normal if you rely on technical things (like humans do) that need power, and a biological side (Aliens, photosynthese, grow like plants) that ganis energy by it environement and plants "seeds" to grow.
Marines are vulnerable to having their spawns shut down; Kharaa are vulnerable to losing large swaths of map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
good point, tech.
i guess the only thing i can say back to it, besides it being intervened with less work (khamm just drops a cyst down again) is that losing a large swath of a map does not end spawning or the game, its just part of the territorial control tug-o-war, just like taking out a powernode.
<u>power nodes should relate to map control and structures, not spawning, just like cysts.</u> (i'll update OP with this)
<!--quoteo(post=1903232:date=Feb 14 2012, 06:09 PM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 14 2012, 06:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903232"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your argument about the eggs is false. It takes some time for a spawning egg to be ready to hatch, in this time 1 marine can kill it, empty 1 or 2 mags in the hive and kill the next spawning egg.
I enden so many times a game alone (with the help of the com) by just walking in the hive shotgun all eggs kill the alien commander logingoff and then doing what I wrote above.
But it is true that aliens have 4chances (4th is if armslab goes down and you have a very good fade), and the marines "only" 1. That is normal if you rely on technical things (like humans do) that need power, and a biological side (Aliens, photosynthese, grow like plants) that ganis energy by it environement and plants "seeds" to grow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2 things:
1) you say its false, as in the eggs are asymmetical to an ip, but you did not address the factors of <b>random locations of hidden eggs and multiple hives</b> (which equal different spawn locations) as well as the speed in which it takes for aliens to come back into base vs the speed it takes marines to come back into base. (beacon helps, IF RESEARCHED, this i know, but as i said in OP two gorges bile bombing a node from outside base are faster than a comm beacons a team, in my experience at least from last night) So player experience will vary, obviously, but there should be fundamental similarities between them to account for those differences in experience, basically a baseline balance is what i'm getting at. what it looks like on paper BEFORE floodinator's skills ruin a base :)
And once again... even IF it was false, thats still 2 vs 3 ways to stop a team from spawning. still a baseline imbalance
2) mythology should explain game mechanics... not the other way around. just because marines are technology and aliens are bio does not mean marines get nukes, does it? symmetry or asymmetry comes first in the game mechanics for balance sake - then the mythology explains away.
I think of bile bomb like an acid filled water balloon. it has great damage potential, but doesn't hit very hard when compared to bites/swipes and heck, even gorge spit atleast impacts with high speed (this will be important distinction later). Thus a comm can use nanoshield to deny a gorge or two from quickly bile bombing a CC, IP or PN (Power Node). if a gorge wants to use bile bomb, they must either wait the shield out or switch to spit and break the shield. A better way would be to have another alien (non gorge) attack the shield to bring it down much faster.
by anaolgy: Nano shield is glass. bile bomb is rain. bite/swipe are hammers. spit is a small rock.
glass keeps out the rain.
hammers shatter glass.
rocks will break the glass eventually.
This would atleast allow the comm to deny one of the more annoying ways to lose, henceforth known as sneakyfastgorgerape. and it can be applied to all 3 'kings'.
Because the teams are different. Don't assume that because marines have more ways to lose that something is wrong. You're trying to answer a question that's not worth asking.
I certainly did.
How long does it take a solo skulk to stop all marines spawning?
that is answered by how long it takes to take down 1 powernode.
How long does it take a solo marine to stop aliens spawning?
Depends on the number of eggs, but is always shorter than the time taken to down an powernode.
You include the hive and CC as ways of spawning, but they are not, you cannot spawn in at a cc if you have no ip, you cannot spawn in at a hive if you have no eggs.
CC and hive are the win conditions. If I eat the CC or Take down the hive, it doesn't stop spawning it ends the game.
So marines have IP's which are powered by Nodes
Alien have eggs which equal IP's.
IP's are much more powerful than eggs, so they need to be nerfed to make it more balanced. They are nerfed by the addition of the power node.
See, you see a problem where there is none. Yes I did read your whole post, but I was hoping my comment would open your eyes to the fact you are looking at too much.
It's:
IP's and Nodes
vs
Eggs
They are balanced. Weak eggs against tough IP's, but balanced by powernodes.
Forget Hive and CC, they do not factor into this equation.
This might be a problem if the key CC's, IP's and powernodes wern't all in the same room as each other and easily defendable as a group so as to abuse slower marine mobility and speed, but they are. So, if anything i guess you could say having this kind of assymetry might add depth. Some may argue in regards to powernodes but i think that might be a different issue to discuss entirely.
yeah, and the command chair is made out of tinfoil
it costs 1/4 of what a hive costs, which is another hilarious imbalance (since it blocks a hive site)
in starcraft, all 3 races' town halls cost the same amount because they all have the same fundamental trait - they can block a 'base site' and dramatically change the game state (by forcing you to push/defend certain areas)
<!--quoteo(post=1903273:date=Feb 14 2012, 11:59 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 14 2012, 11:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903273"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well just to play devil's advocate i think it doesn't really make too much of a difference how many 'kings' marines have. And i say this because at any given time, Alien's have a fixed ammount of 'attack power' (2 skulks, or 2 skulks + onos etc.) which they can choose to either focus on one king, or spread out across all three with the exception of bilebomb which obviously doesn't care if there is 1 king or 999 kings. If they spread their damage out, it will take longer to kill any one of IP, CC, or powernode and so the optimal solution will always be attacking one king.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
now look at it from the defenders' perspective - would you rather have 1 thing that NEEDS to be defended (hive) or several? how about when you have guns and the enemy has to run at you in long hallways to do anything?
Asymmetry is fine, but in this case it seems really gross and unpolished.
Something obviously needs to be changed, and I don't think the Exo-suit is it.
but i would not mind removing the CC-destruction from the loss-conditions. it is certainly very difficult to win without a commander but quite possible e.g. if the IPs are still functional and it might prevent those frequent base-races ("lets see who destroys the opponent's base faster"). you might disagree because losing your last CC is an irreversable damage. but remember the same can happen to kharaa if they lose all harvesters!
downside is the prolonged waiting-time for the part of the team that is already dead whenever the IPs are destroyed.
so maybe add a loss-condition if both, all CCs and all IPs are destroyed.
Something obviously needs to be changed, and I don't think the Exo-suit is it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bejeez? 80%? I was expecting the global marine win rate to decrease due to sentry's not being automatic wins as much anymore and an influx of newer players but wow thats really high... Is there a time frame associated with 80% win rate?
Something obviously needs to be changed, and I don't think the Exo-suit is it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the exo suit is late game tech anyways, most wins happen in the first few minutes of the game from getting steamrolled by skulks rushing the marine base