Alleviating random spawn stress!

MuYeah · February 2012

Hey guys,

The two big problems with balancing random spawns seem to be base distances and vent systems. This post tries to find an easy way of removing the vent problem for mappers.

A quick analysis of NS1 and NS2 vent systems shows a distinct difference between base vents and neutral mid-map vents. That difference I noticed is that you can generally do whatever the heck you want with mid-map vents and balance them on a vent-by-vent basis (exits too close to the RT etc.) but the presence of vents in tech rooms is 100% polarised. Aliens should always have vents, marines should never. Stop me if you disagree.

Anyway, I was wondering why not create a separate type of vent that opens/closes based on infestation or weld-status (defaulted to closed at round start)? I'm going to assume that because it's largely similar in concept to the old door locking idea it probably wouldn't be that difficult to implement.

Marine spawn locations would automatically have no vents in them and alien hive rooms would automatically have vents in them.

To begin with they could simply be for tech rooms but I'm sure there are canny mappers out there who could implement them well in other situations.

I guess it would also provide an extra game-ender for the aliens against turtling marines - if they can spread infestation all the way to outside of the base they deserve the extra vent into the marine spawn. This typically only happens when the game has obviously been won but the marines refuse to recycle so I see it as an up-side.

What do you think?

Ohnojojo · February 2012

NS1 had weldable vents that would close permanently when welded and destructible vent grates.

I think NS2 should (if they're not already planning to) reimplement this game mechanic, with the ability to reopen welded vents with infestation.

Some vents had no grates and weren't weldable.

Destructible vent grates would also be nice, it gives marines audio indications of when a skulk's location in the vents. Once the grates were destroyed, they remained destroyed.
I guess marines could reattach the vent grates in NS2 but they seem to give such little benefit and is so tedious (as they would be destroyed so often) that I don't think its practical.

+1 to vent control.

I think the best way to alleviate random spawn locations is to simply design each spawn location to have equal pros and cons for both aliens and marines.
ie: long lines of sight to give marines the ability to defend.
not too large that aliens can't close the distance.
Enough vents that aliens can travel and defend and attack.
Not enough that marines have a hard time doing the same.

Its a difficult balancing job in a 3d environment. If only it was as simply as making an RTS map like SC2 where all bases are basically symmetrical.

But after enough testing, and retesting and editing, hopefully an awesome map will come out of it.
INCLUDE the vent control system and it'll give a slight home-field advantage and add another dimension to the fight for map control.

To all mappers, keep doing what you're doing! <3
To UWE, keep doing what you're doing.....FASTER *whip cracks* <3

pSyk0mAn · February 2012

I like it very much. Sounds like a good solution to me.
If vents in marine spawns are closed and can be slowly opened by linked infestation in the endgame, it might even be possible to make the actual vent entrance more devastating to marines and thus easier for aliens to end the boring stalemate.

Tweadle · February 2012

I see this as a sensible way of making both sides start with forgiving bases. It would be up to mappers, ultimately, whether they felt it was necessary or not.

JuCCi · February 2012

I find it funny how you all sit on ts3 and talk about idea's then come post it on forums then get everyone on the ts3 to come bump it to make it look like a bigger issue. I think welding would be a good idea for some vents, but i feel a skulk should be able to chew threw them in time. Then reweld them, even a gorge should be able to bile bomb them.

MuYeah · February 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JuCCi-PuCCi @ Feb 16 2012, 02:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903768"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I find it funny how you all sit on ts3 and talk about idea's then come post it on forums then get everyone on the ts3 to come bump it to make it look like a bigger issue. I think welding would be a good idea for some vents, but i feel a skulk should be able to chew threw them in time. Then reweld them, even a gorge should be able to bile bomb them.</div>

Forums poster JuCCi-PuCCI weighing in with conspiracy theories. I don't speak to anyone who posts on this forum outside of this forum on a regular basis.

It's a far more important issue than you realise: The currently un-dynamic vent system is about 50% of the reason why random spawns are broken and the original post is an easy way to remove the problem while keeping a large amount of spawn locations viable for both teams.

Edit: VVVVV

I'm not involved with gathers (because they make me want to die), so this was an independent idea but you have my apologies.

JuCCi · February 2012

I was watching the stream of you guys doing ENSL matches ...... <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116421" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=116421</a>
This was 1 of the topics last night. But ye im crazy thanks.

Jiriki · February 2012

You do realize that NS1 and NS2 players of ENSL are almost completely divided. Most NS2 players don't know NS1 guys and vice versa. I'm surprised if mu knew any of the current NS2 players. I didn't even know there was this discussion until you linked to this, and I only know handful of them. I'm sure swalk and co. discuss balance as they have modded the game a bit to fix balance for the gathers. However I don't remember the last time I talked to mu over ts3, if ever. Most of these replies are rather spontaneous, although I admit sometimes you can rip some cult humour off Fana's hackacusations.

swalk · February 2012

I like this post, it would definitly help balance out the harsh marine spawns we have at the moment.
With this, there would just be the base-to-base distance problem left.
+1

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JuCCi-PuCCi @ Feb 16 2012, 07:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903815"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I was watching the stream of you guys doing ENSL matches ...... <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116421" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=116421</a>
This was 1 of the topics last night. But ye im crazy thanks.</div>
You do realize that <b>none</b> of the people that posted in this topic so far, plays ns2 gathers on ensl?
I find it pretty funny that you assumed that.
Have you considered that this is just a great idea to solve a flaw in the gameplay?(lame baserushes without no real counter to it)
You can't get enough energy in an obs to beacon before those rushes happen.
You are going to lose if you build robotics and turrets first, ie. falling behind in tech and upgrades.
Marines need a marine friendly spawn. And they need to build their IP again, as this feels like a band-aid solution to this problem.

IronHorse · February 2012

There is already a huge thread about this from only a few weeks ago, that you posted in??

<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115904&view=findpost&p=1896217" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1896217</a>

Where i suggested weldable vents and Harimau got into an epic argument with me about it.

Alleviating random spawn stress!

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