<!--quoteo(post=1905136:date=Feb 20 2012, 10:28 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Feb 20 2012, 10:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905136"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens didn't need recycle in NS1. With that in mind try and make the case why they <i>need</i> it in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First I'd like to see someone explain why the marines need it. Because it's funny to see people coming up with nonsense answers and stuff.
Especially since <b>I already did make the case for why they need it in NS2</b>. I didn't refer to NS1 in my argument, and I won't, because I simply don't care. NS1 was very different in this context because the players could all build res towers as gorges. A team with 0 tres, 0 harvesters and all the players at 100pres can easily take the whole map in 1 minute if they aren't stopped. Your suggestion is basically useless at present. I don't want this to be an "NS1 vs NS2" thread, so try to stay on topic :)
<!--quoteo(post=1905131:date=Feb 20 2012, 09:51 AM:name=Ph0enix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ph0enix @ Feb 20 2012, 09:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905131"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just to clarify my position - i'm against giving recycle to aliens because of a 'This one time, in band camp story...' that IE first posted. Its simply not a compelling arguement to bring out a niche case where recycling swung the game and say things need changing based on that from my POV.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why, though? How many different reasons does it take for you to understand?
Look at it from a different perspective - how different would the 'normal' games be with alien recycle in the game? I want to see you construct an actual argument instead of just busting out catchphrases and stuff. I know you can do this, brah.
Also, I've now had this situation happen twice in pub games. The other time, I evolved lerk with the last pres I would ever have, and shot down the command chair while the marines were twiddling their thumbs somewhere. I didn't post about that because people would quote it and go "SEE? aliens are fine because you can just evolve lerk when you run out of money forever" and it would clutter up the thread more. So please don't reply with that!
Why i think alien recycle for res should not be implemented in NS. -Because aliens do not have the same complex llong term tech to tech tree that marines have, it is very easy to 'turbo' build harvestors at high risk locations, then at say 50-60 res (whatever the recycle ammount is), 'recycle' them to build an extra fast hive. Keep in mind that the normal fast alien hive atm is at 3-4 minutes which is already quite fast and hard for marines to deal with. This is going to change lifeform timings alot. You could balance it so that pres suffers sufficiently, but it might just be too much work for not alot of benefit.
It might be nice however if we could recycle structures to turn into a like 10-15 hive energy or something perhaps as long as it is on connected cysts. So alien comms who build the wrong structures can rectify their error but at a reasonable punishment. This doesnt screw with the res game.
<!--quoteo(post=1905215:date=Feb 20 2012, 02:20 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 20 2012, 02:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905215"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It might be nice however if we could recycle structures to turn into a like 10-15 hive energy or something perhaps as long as it is on connected cysts. So alien comms who build the wrong structures can rectify their error but at a reasonable punishment. This doesnt screw with the res game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
doesn't help the problem I identified either
do you not agree that a true back-and-forth game should not slide toward marines winning every single time because of recycle?
<!--quoteo(post=1905215:date=Feb 20 2012, 12:20 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 20 2012, 12:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905215"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why i think alien recycle for res should not be implemented in NS. -Because aliens do not have the same complex llong term tech to tech tree that marines have, it is very easy to 'turbo' build harvestors at high risk locations, then at say 50-60 res (whatever the recycle ammount is), 'recycle' them to build an extra fast hive. Keep in mind that the normal fast alien hive atm is at 3-4 minutes which is already quite fast and hard for marines to deal with. This is going to change lifeform timings alot. You could balance it so that pres suffers sufficiently, but it might just be too much work for not alot of benefit.
It might be nice however if we could recycle structures to turn into a like 10-15 hive energy or something perhaps as long as it is on connected cysts. So alien comms who build the wrong structures can rectify their error but at a reasonable punishment. This doesnt screw with the res game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since the res points have to be connected to the cyst network to be build i dont see this as a big problem, since there is a energy limit and to a certain point problem at beginning of a round. And you still have to spend the 25 energy for a drifter and sending it to a far away point is dangerous since it is so fragile. I agree that theoretically it would be a problem if the marines would turtle without moving out of the base. But through the limited energy and the infestation requirement its not a practical problem for me. And wont be a reason for me for not implementing the recycling for aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1905221:date=Feb 21 2012, 05:38 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Feb 21 2012, 05:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905221"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->doesn't help the problem I identified either
do you not agree that a true back-and-forth game should not slide toward marines winning every single time because of recycle?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
mmm.. Yes, i agree that a true back and forth game should not slowly slide towards one team or another and that when pushed to the extremes the marines have the advantage with recycle. However, i dont think in the wider scheme of the game, considering all the other variables that differentiate the teams, recycle is that big of a factor. Although im generalising here and dont know specifically what happened in the game you played, losing your last resource tower probably meant the marines had the rest of the entire map and would shortly win.
Likewise, when you had them on their back foot, forced to recycle buildings to build an RT. Aliens have some powerful options to kill buildings and end the game, much more so than marines. Not being able to do so when marines are at that point seems to be an extremely rare case that might not warrant the implementation of a system that would have alot of balance implications. Again, your right, there is unfair asymmetry here, but i think it isnt too unfair when you can simply keep a 10 res float as alien comm if you see your team heading in this direction.
<!--quoteo(post=1905230:date=Feb 20 2012, 01:12 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 20 2012, 01:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905230"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->mmm.. Yes, i agree that a true back and forth game should not slowly slide towards one team or another and that when pushed to the extremes the marines have the advantage with recycle. However, i dont think in the wider scheme of the game, considering all the other variables that differentiate the teams, recycle is that big of a factor. Although im generalising here and dont know specifically what happened in the game you played, losing your last resource tower probably meant the marines had the rest of the entire map and would shortly win.
Likewise, when you had them on their back foot, forced to recycle buildings to build an RT. Aliens have some powerful options to kill buildings and end the game, much more so than marines. Not being able to do so when marines are at that point seems to be an extremely rare case that might not warrant the implementation of a system that would have alot of balance implications. Again, your right, there is unfair asymmetry here, but i think it isnt too unfair when you can simply keep a 10 res float as alien comm if you see your team heading in this direction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How are aliens better in destroying RTs in late game?
Aliens have to get close to the rt with the exception of the gorge and lerk. Marines just shoot it from the distance with the GL or LMG, the other weapons are also very strong. Or they rush through with a arctrain? I think their even in that.
<!--quoteo(post=1905232:date=Feb 20 2012, 03:20 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Feb 20 2012, 03:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905232"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How are aliens better in destroying RTs in late game?
Aliens have to get close to the rt with the exception of the gorge and lerk. Marines just shoot it from the distance with the GL or LMG, the other weapons are also very strong. Or they rush through with a arctrain? I think their even in that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
bile bomb can hit from a ridiculous distance and do ridiculous damage. you can fire it from cover and splash it off walls, across gaps that grenades could never cross before detonating
that's the only way until we get some acid rockets, but it's certainly really powerful!
<!--quoteo(post=1905232:date=Feb 21 2012, 06:20 AM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Feb 21 2012, 06:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905232"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How are aliens better in destroying RTs in late game?
Aliens have to get close to the rt with the exception of the gorge and lerk. Marines just shoot it from the distance with the GL or LMG, the other weapons are also very strong. Or they rush through with a arctrain? I think their even in that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, i meant in the situation where marines are forced to recycle to build an RT, you can just bilebomb where their armoury is and hit the CC, their IP's, their obs, their arms lab etc. Or you can just aim bilebomb up at the ceiling and it will hit everything. I dont mean aliens have an easier time to kill RT's in a resource war, i meant that in general it is easy for aliens to finish marines off if they so choose to.
<!--quoteo(post=1905241:date=Feb 20 2012, 03:43 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 20 2012, 03:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905241"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, i meant in the situation where marines are forced to recycle to build an RT, you can just bilebomb where their armoury is and hit the CC, their IP's, their obs, their arms lab etc. Or you can just aim bilebomb up at the ceiling and it will hit everything. I dont mean aliens have an easier time to kill RT's in a resource war, i meant that in general it is easy for aliens to finish marines off if they so choose to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, bile bomb is really strong right now. You can bet on that changing, though. Flayra himself said that it was 'probably too strong' when they added it to help the flow of games during the beta.
<!--quoteo(post=1905265:date=Feb 20 2012, 05:24 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Feb 20 2012, 05:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't worry about recycling yet. Aliens should to be able to cancel their unfinished structures and evolutions (team upgrades), at least.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
whats the use in cancel unfinished structures when the structure is already finished? or is a hydra?
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1905162:date=Feb 20 2012, 07:38 AM:name=autograder)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (autograder @ Feb 20 2012, 07:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905162"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see recycling less of a balance issue and more of a EVERY GAME EVER LETS YOU CANCEL OR DELETE BUILDINGS feature.
<u>People screw up. </u> Place an extra shell? Recycle it. Block a door? Recycle it. Player evolves between a wall and a crag? Recycle it.
<u>Game can screw up.</u> Can't place an RT? Recycle some stuff.
*Edit: Balance is <i>how much res you get back</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This. Almost every RTS I've played allows you to recycle/cancel buildings you didn't want. Having an alien comm, but not a widely accepted RTS feature is like not including an ammo indicator on marine weapons.
However, I would extend the recycle ability to gorge dropped hydras/mini-cysts. This would reduce the 'can't build in room because of hydra spam/entity limit' problem
<!--quoteo(post=1905268:date=Feb 20 2012, 07:30 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Feb 20 2012, 07:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905268"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->whats the use in cancel unfinished structures when the structure is already finished? or is a hydra?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because people make mistakes?
Even more often, people make decisions with incomplete information (like building a res tower you think is safe because you haven't found the enemy team's spawn yet), and cancelling allows you to recover some of the cost involved. Not being able to do this at all is just another way aliens are punished extremely hard for early game decision making.
<!--quoteo(post=1905288:date=Feb 20 2012, 06:18 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Feb 20 2012, 06:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905288"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because people make mistakes?
Even more often, people make decisions with incomplete information (like building a res tower you think is safe because you haven't found the enemy team's spawn yet), and cancelling allows you to recover some of the cost involved. Not being able to do this at all is just another way aliens are punished extremely hard for early game decision making.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did mean that canceling the build progress would be nice, but won't solve the problems with already placed buildings.
<!--quoteo(post=1905291:date=Feb 20 2012, 08:24 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Feb 20 2012, 08:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I did mean that canceling the build progress would be nice, but won't solve the problems with already placed buildings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah sorry! I guess there's something to point at now when somebody goes "WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO CANCEL A BUILDING ANYWAY" heh
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited February 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1905273:date=Feb 20 2012, 03:39 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Feb 20 2012, 03:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905273"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This. Almost every RTS I've played allows you to recycle/cancel buildings you didn't want. Having an alien comm, but not a widely accepted RTS feature is like not including an ammo indicator on marine weapons.
However, I would extend the recycle ability to gorge dropped hydras/mini-cysts. This would reduce the 'can't build in room because of hydra spam/entity limit' problem<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agree... but can we do something thats intuitive for that little guy, like say,<b> eat it?</b> since you know, he throws it up? he's missing some intuitive design in areas, like healspray not assisting structures etc. (i know they are planning on giving the gorge "some love" soon, juss sayin') :)
Comments
First I'd like to see someone explain why the marines need it. Because it's funny to see people coming up with nonsense answers and stuff.
Especially since <b>I already did make the case for why they need it in NS2</b>. I didn't refer to NS1 in my argument, and I won't, because I simply don't care. NS1 was very different in this context because the players could all build res towers as gorges. A team with 0 tres, 0 harvesters and all the players at 100pres can easily take the whole map in 1 minute if they aren't stopped. Your suggestion is basically useless at present. I don't want this to be an "NS1 vs NS2" thread, so try to stay on topic :)
<!--quoteo(post=1905131:date=Feb 20 2012, 09:51 AM:name=Ph0enix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ph0enix @ Feb 20 2012, 09:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905131"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just to clarify my position - i'm against giving recycle to aliens because of a 'This one time, in band camp story...' that IE first posted. Its simply not a compelling arguement to bring out a niche case where recycling swung the game and say things need changing based on that from my POV.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why, though? How many different reasons does it take for you to understand?
Look at it from a different perspective - how different would the 'normal' games be with alien recycle in the game? I want to see you construct an actual argument instead of just busting out catchphrases and stuff. I know you can do this, brah.
Also, I've now had this situation happen twice in pub games. The other time, I evolved lerk with the last pres I would ever have, and shot down the command chair while the marines were twiddling their thumbs somewhere. I didn't post about that because people would quote it and go "SEE? aliens are fine because you can just evolve lerk when you run out of money forever" and it would clutter up the thread more. So please don't reply with that!
-Because aliens do not have the same complex llong term tech to tech tree that marines have, it is very easy to 'turbo' build harvestors at high risk locations, then at say 50-60 res (whatever the recycle ammount is), 'recycle' them to build an extra fast hive. Keep in mind that the normal fast alien hive atm is at 3-4 minutes which is already quite fast and hard for marines to deal with. This is going to change lifeform timings alot. You could balance it so that pres suffers sufficiently, but it might just be too much work for not alot of benefit.
It might be nice however if we could recycle structures to turn into a like 10-15 hive energy or something perhaps as long as it is on connected cysts. So alien comms who build the wrong structures can rectify their error but at a reasonable punishment. This doesnt screw with the res game.
doesn't help the problem I identified either
do you not agree that a true back-and-forth game should not slide toward marines winning every single time because of recycle?
-Because aliens do not have the same complex llong term tech to tech tree that marines have, it is very easy to 'turbo' build harvestors at high risk locations, then at say 50-60 res (whatever the recycle ammount is), 'recycle' them to build an extra fast hive. Keep in mind that the normal fast alien hive atm is at 3-4 minutes which is already quite fast and hard for marines to deal with. This is going to change lifeform timings alot. You could balance it so that pres suffers sufficiently, but it might just be too much work for not alot of benefit.
It might be nice however if we could recycle structures to turn into a like 10-15 hive energy or something perhaps as long as it is on connected cysts. So alien comms who build the wrong structures can rectify their error but at a reasonable punishment. This doesnt screw with the res game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since the res points have to be connected to the cyst network to be build i dont see this as a big problem, since there is a energy limit and to a certain point problem at beginning of a round.
And you still have to spend the 25 energy for a drifter and sending it to a far away point is dangerous since it is so fragile. I agree that theoretically it would be a problem if the marines would turtle without moving out of the base. But through the limited energy and the infestation requirement its not a practical problem for me. And wont be a reason for me for not implementing the recycling for aliens.
do you not agree that a true back-and-forth game should not slide toward marines winning every single time because of recycle?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
mmm..
Yes, i agree that a true back and forth game should not slowly slide towards one team or another and that when pushed to the extremes the marines have the advantage with recycle. However, i dont think in the wider scheme of the game, considering all the other variables that differentiate the teams, recycle is that big of a factor. Although im generalising here and dont know specifically what happened in the game you played, losing your last resource tower probably meant the marines had the rest of the entire map and would shortly win.
Likewise, when you had them on their back foot, forced to recycle buildings to build an RT. Aliens have some powerful options to kill buildings and end the game, much more so than marines. Not being able to do so when marines are at that point seems to be an extremely rare case that might not warrant the implementation of a system that would have alot of balance implications. Again, your right, there is unfair asymmetry here, but i think it isnt too unfair when you can simply keep a 10 res float as alien comm if you see your team heading in this direction.
Yes, i agree that a true back and forth game should not slowly slide towards one team or another and that when pushed to the extremes the marines have the advantage with recycle. However, i dont think in the wider scheme of the game, considering all the other variables that differentiate the teams, recycle is that big of a factor. Although im generalising here and dont know specifically what happened in the game you played, losing your last resource tower probably meant the marines had the rest of the entire map and would shortly win.
Likewise, when you had them on their back foot, forced to recycle buildings to build an RT. Aliens have some powerful options to kill buildings and end the game, much more so than marines. Not being able to do so when marines are at that point seems to be an extremely rare case that might not warrant the implementation of a system that would have alot of balance implications. Again, your right, there is unfair asymmetry here, but i think it isnt too unfair when you can simply keep a 10 res float as alien comm if you see your team heading in this direction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How are aliens better in destroying RTs in late game?
Aliens have to get close to the rt with the exception of the gorge and lerk. Marines just shoot it from the distance with the GL or LMG, the other weapons are also very strong. Or they rush through with a arctrain? I think their even in that.
Aliens have to get close to the rt with the exception of the gorge and lerk. Marines just shoot it from the distance with the GL or LMG, the other weapons are also very strong. Or they rush through with a arctrain? I think their even in that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
bile bomb can hit from a ridiculous distance and do ridiculous damage. you can fire it from cover and splash it off walls, across gaps that grenades could never cross before detonating
that's the only way until we get some acid rockets, but it's certainly really powerful!
Aliens have to get close to the rt with the exception of the gorge and lerk. Marines just shoot it from the distance with the GL or LMG, the other weapons are also very strong. Or they rush through with a arctrain? I think their even in that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, i meant in the situation where marines are forced to recycle to build an RT, you can just bilebomb where their armoury is and hit the CC, their IP's, their obs, their arms lab etc. Or you can just aim bilebomb up at the ceiling and it will hit everything. I dont mean aliens have an easier time to kill RT's in a resource war, i meant that in general it is easy for aliens to finish marines off if they so choose to.
Yeah, bile bomb is really strong right now. You can bet on that changing, though. Flayra himself said that it was 'probably too strong' when they added it to help the flow of games during the beta.
whats the use in cancel unfinished structures when the structure is already finished? or is a hydra?
<u>People screw up. </u>
Place an extra shell? Recycle it.
Block a door? Recycle it.
Player evolves between a wall and a crag? Recycle it.
<u>Game can screw up.</u>
Can't place an RT? Recycle some stuff.
*Edit:
Balance is <i>how much res you get back</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. Almost every RTS I've played allows you to recycle/cancel buildings you didn't want. Having an alien comm, but not a widely accepted RTS feature is like not including an ammo indicator on marine weapons.
However, I would extend the recycle ability to gorge dropped hydras/mini-cysts. This would reduce the 'can't build in room because of hydra spam/entity limit' problem
Because people make mistakes?
Even more often, people make decisions with incomplete information (like building a res tower you think is safe because you haven't found the enemy team's spawn yet), and cancelling allows you to recover some of the cost involved. Not being able to do this at all is just another way aliens are punished extremely hard for early game decision making.
Even more often, people make decisions with incomplete information (like building a res tower you think is safe because you haven't found the enemy team's spawn yet), and cancelling allows you to recover some of the cost involved. Not being able to do this at all is just another way aliens are punished extremely hard for early game decision making.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did mean that canceling the build progress would be nice, but won't solve the problems with already placed buildings.
Yeah sorry!
I guess there's something to point at now when somebody goes "WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO CANCEL A BUILDING ANYWAY" heh
However, I would extend the recycle ability to gorge dropped hydras/mini-cysts. This would reduce the 'can't build in room because of hydra spam/entity limit' problem<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agree... but can we do something thats intuitive for that little guy, like say,<b> eat it?</b> since you know, he throws it up?
he's missing some intuitive design in areas, like healspray not assisting structures etc.
(i know they are planning on giving the gorge "some love" soon, juss sayin')
:)