swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1905557:date=Feb 21 2012, 10:10 PM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Feb 21 2012, 10:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905557"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lol...yeah and 8 marines can always be killed by a group of Aliens... Your comment make sense...not.
Please read the whole topic and then write.
There a lot of good points which show you whats the problem with aliens and marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> His post does make sense, however I do not agree with him that aliens are OP. Hive 1 aliens are at an disadvantage if marines get GLs, they have alot of trouble recovering/getting 2nd hive up because of that. The solution is clearly to untie fades and oni from hives, and make them stronger with more hives, like in the last version of NS1. The OP however, doesn't make much sense, and alot of what is written doesn't relate to the problem at all.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1905812:date=Feb 22 2012, 04:02 AM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Feb 22 2012, 04:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." - Bonaparte
Yea. If the marines are sitting in the base, waiting for you to attack ... then yea. Wait. Your commander is busy expanding and getting the res for your second hive... your egg stock is increasing, and you are getting stronger all the time.
Sooner or later, the marines WILL have to move out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Suicide Zerg rushing the Terran base is a common newbie mistake in Starcraft 2. NS2 balance feels surprisingly simialr to Terran vs Zerg. The Zerg, given time, expands all over the map. The Terran, on the other hand, has to rally his troops into a massive ball, and roll out before the Zerg overruns the map.
What is missing from Kharaa arsenal is an effective early game Kharaa siege breaker (Banelings in SC2). On the other hand, Marines don't exactly have great choke defense (Bunker/Supply Depo wall) either. Thus the early balance mainly depends on the Marines' ability to aim, which is suffering in recent builds.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
The marines have more ways of making fatal mistakes in the beginning of the game - not having a commander, leaving the base undefended, not defending RT's, not staying together, not putting pressure on the aliens ... lots of way to loose.
Aliens have a more relaxed playstyle. Only if the marines DON'T make mistakes do the aliens need to step up their game and actually start fighting hard and smart.
Also note that the game does not need to be balanced around 1 lvl 0 marine == 1 base skulk. Its quite possible to expect marines to have a 1.3-2.0 v 1 ratio vs skulks and still have a balanced game, as long as skulks can spawn quickly and get back to battle quickly. As performance goes up and tracking targets becomes easier, we should see marines starting to dominate early 1v1 encounters.
At which time the bugs with alien spawnrates will become obvious enough that they get fixed.
Whenever the game gets laggy or unstable the aliens win rate goes up. If you have a game with relatively little lag then the marines seem to always have the advantage, until fades. (But, you could call blink 'lag' and I wouldn't be able to tell the difference anyway.)
Basically 3/5 games play out exactly the same for me. (Build 197) Early on the marines totally dominate, take over 60% to 70% of the map. Then comes the hive rush, which usually works, except when the bad attack notifications happen. Everybody is shooting and looking up, towards the hive, and without looking for skulks you wont know they have your spleen in your mouth until you are dead. If the Hive doesnt go down, then the marines have a small chance to regroup and push back, but usually the aliens set up have 2 then everyone goes fade, then all the marines just plain die. If you happen to get 'throwers you have a chance to get boxed in at main spawn.
To me, the problem is entirely about the aliens speed nerf making it harder to cover 2 hives while being aggressive.
Games start having a huge pressure on the gorge/comm to throw up the second hive asap, and the skulks to keep the marines under pressure. Small teams suffer from having effectively 2 commanders on aliens, larger games suffer from slow spawn rates from only 1 hive - so while marines are respawning and pushing at a good rate, skulks are waiting to respawn.
If your new hive is under attack, its pretty much better to rush the marine base and hope they beacon rather than try to save the hive. Is this the way it should be? Until fade is unlocked, this is the only option. And if the marines rush for grenade launchers or shotguns, they can deny a second hive almost indefinably.
I'd like to see a few things: - Difference between 1 and 2 hives reduced. Perhaps as someone mentioned, making all species avaliable at all times and instead making hives reduce cost. Also would be nice is more hives improved effectiveness of upgrades (eg caprace at 3 hives being twice as effective as 1 hive). - Hydras improved - Fades nerfed a bit - Shotguns not made so easy to access early game - Cysts free and weaker, or explode on death for some damage (prevent marines knifing them). Atm they are a drain of res that constantly get killed.
Or just ignore me. I'm not nearly as experienced as most of you in NS2, these are just my current observations.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited February 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1905819:date=Feb 22 2012, 03:19 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Feb 22 2012, 03:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905819"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The solution is clearly to untie fades and oni from hives, and make them stronger with more hives, like in the last version of NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
!? what?! that is going in the opposite direction if you ask me. that only encourages turtling for BOTH teams then, and removes, once again, some importance of tech points and therefore map control. the risk would be too great to waste tres on a hive that merely made you stronger, as abilities like fade and onos charge are extremely powerful, you would just collect res points / play defense, as the marines currently do!
instead, <u><b>increase </b></u>the importance of techpoints for marines to equal that of aliens (does not <i>have </i>to be tying tech to them, but something equally important.) and you've not only solved the problem at hand, but you've solved other issues as well, as mentioned previously.
This problem is compounded by the fact that aliens (the race that depends on expansions for tech) has a much more difficult time expanding and controlling territory due to needing infestation and by extension cysts to build. The fact that the cysts are so vulnerable and make it so easy to shut off entire sections of the map makes things even worse. The slow ass spawnrate off 1 hive with no way to improve it is also a pain. Maybe give aliens the ability to buy more eggs for res or energy? Because I see far too often the wors "6 players waiting to spawn before you".
<!--quoteo(post=1906017:date=Feb 22 2012, 05:28 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 22 2012, 05:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906017"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->!? what?! that is going in the opposite direction if you ask me. that only encourages turtling for BOTH teams then, and removes, once again, some importance of tech points and therefore map control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> eh??
Just wondering, you get that aliens and marines get more res for kills, rts right? only the backpeddling team will be the one turtling. one team will always be pushing the tempo of the match. it puts MORE importance on tech points and area control. the LESS control of the map you have that MORE of a chance you have of getting run over by the other team and losing. more res nodes, the faster your team techs up and destroys the other team. if youre a skulk and youre not doing anything, thats a damn long time waiting for res to go fade, especially if your teamates arent doing anything either and your com isnt taking res nodes. meanwhile, if your team isnt capping res you can be sure the other team IS.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the risk would be too great to waste tres on a hive that merely made you stronger, as abilities like fade and onos charge are extremely powerful, you would just collect res points / play defense, as the marines currently do!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1906070:date=Feb 22 2012, 08:33 PM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Feb 22 2012, 08:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906070"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This problem is compounded by the fact that aliens (the race that depends on expansions for tech) has a much more difficult time expanding and controlling territory due to needing infestation and by extension cysts to build. The fact that the cysts are so vulnerable and make it so easy to shut off entire sections of the map makes things even worse. The slow ass spawnrate off 1 hive with no way to improve it is also a pain. Maybe give aliens the ability to buy more eggs for res or energy? Because I see far too often the wors "6 players waiting to spawn before you".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMO its not the cysts that make expansion for aliens so hard, its the lack of gorges, and early super strength of the marine teams. back in ns1 you had abilities you could throw out immediately like celerity, silence, carapace, regen, etc. ns2 needs more of these choices. a silence vent camping skulk with lerk support was golden in ns1. now lerk has to kamikaze into 1hit kill shotties to slightly annoy the marines while carapace is almost useless. hopefully shift brings back movement abilities from ns1 that were fun. as for cysts, people just spray them at the ground, forgetting the fact that you can place them in the nook and crannies of the roofs in maps. and instead of 3 res, i honestly think they should be two. but whats really hurting is the lack of gorges. there is almost no payoff for playing gorge, you dont really do much of anything anymore. and hydras are a complete joke. gorges should have the abilty to drop any available chamber. lerks should be able to shoot spores at distance and use umbra at 2 hives. skulks should have silence ability (outside of walk, come the f on). gorges were absolutely essential for alien area control, now most of the time marines can walk into a room and take it unless theres a fade to slow them down. marines have items instantly dropped for them while aliens have to wait and wait and wait for drifters to show up. why? when theres a gorge right there that SHOULD and USED TO have the same ability. a gorge shouldnt be able to drop whips, but should be able to drop a shade, crag or whatever sub chamber aliens have at that time.
<!--quoteo(post=1905996:date=Feb 22 2012, 04:26 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Feb 22 2012, 04:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905996"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To me, the problem is entirely about the aliens speed nerf making it harder to cover 2 hives while being aggressive.
Games start having a huge pressure on the gorge/comm to throw up the second hive asap, and the skulks to keep the marines under pressure. Small teams suffer from having effectively 2 commanders on aliens, larger games suffer from slow spawn rates from only 1 hive - so while marines are respawning and pushing at a good rate, skulks are waiting to respawn.
If your new hive is under attack, its pretty much better to rush the marine base and hope they beacon rather than try to save the hive. Is this the way it should be? Until fade is unlocked, this is the only option. And if the marines rush for grenade launchers or shotguns, they can deny a second hive almost indefinably.
I'd like to see a few things: - Difference between 1 and 2 hives reduced. Perhaps as someone mentioned, making all species avaliable at all times and instead making hives reduce cost. Also would be nice is more hives improved effectiveness of upgrades (eg caprace at 3 hives being twice as effective as 1 hive). - Hydras improved - Fades nerfed a bit - Shotguns not made so easy to access early game - Cysts free and weaker, or explode on death for some damage (prevent marines knifing them). Atm they are a drain of res that constantly get killed.
Or just ignore me. I'm not nearly as experienced as most of you in NS2, these are just my current observations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i agree with almost everything you said, except leave the fade alone. ffs you ppl have been complaining about fade for so gd long now. and in turn the devs have crippled it patch after patch after patch. guess what, fade is STILL strong. its a COSTLY LIFEFORM ITS SUPPOSED TO BE STRONG. and you can STILL 2-3 hit a fade. so you want to weaken the already weak fade? what else can you do to it? they have so little adren now you can pick them off when they run away lol. its like inbetween ns1-2 they contracted faids and cant attack anymore, but they need to be nerfed.. more?
cysts cant be free, it would make alien expansion way too easy early on.
only thing shotgun needs if damage fall off at mid range.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited February 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1906087:date=Feb 22 2012, 05:55 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Feb 22 2012, 05:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906087"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just wondering, you get that aliens and marines get more res for kills, rts right? only the backpeddling team will be the one turtling. one team will always be pushing the tempo of the match. it puts MORE importance on tech points and area control. the LESS control of the map you have that MORE of a chance you have of getting run over by the other team and losing. more res nodes, the faster your team techs up and destroys the other team. if youre a skulk and youre not doing anything, thats a damn long time waiting for res to go fade, especially if your teamates arent doing anything either and your com isnt taking res nodes. meanwhile, if your team isnt capping res you can be sure the other team IS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nerd rage, much? there aren't "res for kills" anymore, rfk was removed. where have you been? a backpedaling team is just that, and not necessarily turtling, and even then there area counters to promote the tug of war gameplay.
wth are you going on about with res points?? we all know how they work, thats not the discussion. the discussion at hand is untying lifeforms to hives will <b>LESSEN </b>the importance of techpoints, because as i said, if i get fade without having to worry about capping that tech point then that means its' importance is <b>LESSENED</b>. this method would also not solve other issues like the imbalance in the ways to disable a team's method of spawning, multiple spawning locations, vulnerability of locations etc.
doing the method i suggest WOULD solve the issue at hand, creating asymmetry between how each team treats map control AND techpoints... and it solves these other issues mentioned, as well.
<!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->LOGIC!<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->did that large font help emphasize my point? no?.. .oh wasn't that what it was supposed to do?...<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Nerd Rage had the funniest Pip Boy icon in all of Fallout 3.
Anyway, why even bother with the question 'are aliens too weak at 1 hive' when its quite obvious both teams are weak with one base/hive. And should be.
How many times have you lost to skulk rush as Marines? Early shotty rush as Aliens? Everyone is weak at one/base hive, whats the point of having a 6 tech point map? It would be 'X number of lane(s)' style maps otherwise.
The real (and amazingly tough, but we all have faith in Charlie, no pressure dude) question is, how to make 2v1 bases a winnable position for either side?
PS: Oh, and 'faids' gets 1 million geek points, feaking awsome quote sir.
<!--quoteo(post=1906094:date=Feb 22 2012, 09:09 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Feb 22 2012, 09:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906094"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i agree with almost everything you said, except leave the fade alone. ffs you ppl have been complaining about fade for so gd long now. and in turn the devs have crippled it patch after patch after patch. guess what, fade is STILL strong. its a COSTLY LIFEFORM ITS SUPPOSED TO BE STRONG. and you can STILL 2-3 hit a fade. so you want to weaken the already weak fade? what else can you do to it? they have so little adren now you can pick them off when they run away lol. its like inbetween ns1-2 they contracted faids and cant attack anymore, but they need to be nerfed.. more?
cysts cant be free, it would make alien expansion way too easy early on.
only thing shotgun needs if damage fall off at mid range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think if shotgun was nerfed as you said, fade would definitely need nerfing too. Atm the only real threat to a fade is the entire marine team (which he should stay away from anyway), or a few people with shotguns. Fades have terrible adrenaline and health is only ok vs shotguns, so not sure how it could be nerfed more.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1906192:date=Feb 23 2012, 10:16 AM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Feb 23 2012, 10:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906192"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think if shotgun was nerfed as you said, fade would definitely need nerfing too. Atm the only real threat to a fade is the entire marine team (which he should stay away from anyway), or a few people with shotguns. Fades have terrible adrenaline and health is only ok vs shotguns, so not sure how it could be nerfed more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Definitly not true. The shotgun would need a damage falloff nerf, I agree. But the fades HP doesn't need to be lowered. Fades with carapace currently die to two SG shots with weapons 0. With momentum changes coming to the blink, the fade will very likely be much more visible and attackable for marines. That will mostly affect the rifle vs fade, and fade vs jetpack situations. I think the fade without carapace should be able to <i>barely</i> survive two full SG blasts at weapons 0.
<!--quoteo(post=1906192:date=Feb 23 2012, 11:16 AM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Feb 23 2012, 11:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906192"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think if shotgun was nerfed as you said, fade would definitely need nerfing too. Atm the only real threat to a fade is the entire marine team (which he should stay away from anyway), or a few people with shotguns. Fades have terrible adrenaline and health is only ok vs shotguns, so not sure how it could be nerfed more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or a marine with a flamethrower supported by a second marine. Flamethrower drains their energy really goddamn fast. No energy = no escape = dead fade.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1906252:date=Feb 23 2012, 01:44 PM:name=Rautapalli)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rautapalli @ Feb 23 2012, 01:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or a marine with a flamethrower supported by a second marine. Flamethrower drains their energy really goddamn fast. No energy = no escape = dead fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The flamer doesn't drain adrenaline. It prevents adrenaline regeneration by reducing the regen to 25% of normal when on fire. That mean the fade have to make a massive mistake when engaging flamers to not be able to blink away from the scene.
<!--quoteo(post=1906253:date=Feb 23 2012, 02:49 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Feb 23 2012, 02:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The flamer doesn't drain adrenaline. It prevents adrenaline regeneration by reducing the regen to 25% of normal when on fire. That mean the fade have to make a massive mistake when engaging flamers to not be able to blink away from the scene.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? I always felt like it also drained it, but I guess I stand corrected. 75% hit on regen is still huge though.
<!--quoteo(post=1906154:date=Feb 22 2012, 11:46 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 22 2012, 11:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->nerd rage, much? there aren't "res for kills" anymore, rfk was removed. where have you been? a backpedaling team is just that, and not necessarily turtling, and even then there area counters to promote the tug of war gameplay.
wth are you going on about with res points?? we all know how they work, thats not the discussion. the discussion at hand is untying lifeforms to hives will <b>LESSEN </b>the importance of techpoints, because as i said, if i get fade without having to worry about capping that tech point then that means its' importance is <b>LESSENED</b>. this method would also not solve other issues like the imbalance in the ways to disable a team's method of spawning, multiple spawning locations, vulnerability of locations etc.
doing the method i suggest WOULD solve the issue at hand, creating asymmetry between how each team treats map control AND techpoints... and it solves these other issues mentioned, as well.
<!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->LOGIC!<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->did that large font help emphasize my point? no?.. .oh wasn't that what it was supposed to do?...<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
just clueless, stop responding.
btw, read the thread topic
protip, it doesnt contain anything about "untying lifeforms to hives"
<!--quoteo(post=1905812:date=Feb 22 2012, 04:02 AM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Feb 22 2012, 04:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." - Bonaparte<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"The best defense is a good offense" - Carl von Clausewitz
<!--quoteo(post=1906439:date=Feb 23 2012, 06:56 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Feb 23 2012, 06:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"The best defense is a good offense" - Carl von Clausewitz<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But what if your enemy's mistake is that they are not forcing you to use defenses?
<!--quoteo(post=1905385:date=Feb 21 2012, 07:07 AM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Feb 21 2012, 07:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905385"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>One hive for aliens really sucks. But at two hives (if they get there early) they're the kings.</b> I find that this <b>massive gap between one and two hives</b> should be narrowed somehow. <b>Three hives is just icing on the cake at the moment.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1906248:date=Feb 23 2012, 07:39 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Feb 23 2012, 07:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906248"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Definitly not true. The shotgun would need a damage falloff nerf, I agree. But the fades HP doesn't need to be lowered. Fades with carapace currently die to two SG shots with weapons 0. With momentum changes coming to the blink, the fade will very likely be much more visible and attackable for marines. That will mostly affect the rifle vs fade, and fade vs jetpack situations. I think the fade without carapace should be able to <i>barely</i> survive two full SG blasts at weapons 0.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> hm if this is true, then I support this:
<!--quoteo(post=1906265:date=Feb 23 2012, 08:31 AM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Feb 23 2012, 08:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->its still the blink part of fade thats broken
hp/armor wise fades are actually too weak
fix up blink and increase their hp/armor again<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
Your comment make sense...not.
Please read the whole topic and then write.
There a lot of good points which show you whats the problem with aliens and marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
His post does make sense, however I do not agree with him that aliens are OP.
Hive 1 aliens are at an disadvantage if marines get GLs, they have alot of trouble recovering/getting 2nd hive up because of that.
The solution is clearly to untie fades and oni from hives, and make them stronger with more hives, like in the last version of NS1.
The OP however, doesn't make much sense, and alot of what is written doesn't relate to the problem at all.
Yea. If the marines are sitting in the base, waiting for you to attack ... then yea. Wait. Your commander
is busy expanding and getting the res for your second hive... your egg stock is increasing, and you are getting
stronger all the time.
Sooner or later, the marines WILL have to move out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Suicide Zerg rushing the Terran base is a common newbie mistake in Starcraft 2. NS2 balance feels surprisingly simialr to Terran vs Zerg. The Zerg, given time, expands all over the map. The Terran, on the other hand, has to rally his troops into a massive ball, and roll out before the Zerg overruns the map.
What is missing from Kharaa arsenal is an effective early game Kharaa siege breaker (Banelings in SC2). On the other hand, Marines don't exactly have great choke defense (Bunker/Supply Depo wall) either. Thus the early balance mainly depends on the Marines' ability to aim, which is suffering in recent builds.
Aliens have a more relaxed playstyle. Only if the marines DON'T make mistakes do the aliens need to step up their game and actually start fighting hard and smart.
Also note that the game does not need to be balanced around 1 lvl 0 marine == 1 base skulk. Its quite possible to expect marines to have a 1.3-2.0 v 1 ratio vs skulks and still have a balanced game, as long as skulks can spawn quickly and get back to battle quickly. As performance goes up and tracking targets becomes easier, we should see marines starting to dominate early 1v1 encounters.
At which time the bugs with alien spawnrates will become obvious enough that they get fixed.
Basically 3/5 games play out exactly the same for me. (Build 197) Early on the marines totally dominate, take over 60% to 70% of the map. Then comes the hive rush, which usually works, except when the bad attack notifications happen. Everybody is shooting and looking up, towards the hive, and without looking for skulks you wont know they have your spleen in your mouth until you are dead. If the Hive doesnt go down, then the marines have a small chance to regroup and push back, but usually the aliens set up have 2 then everyone goes fade, then all the marines just plain die. If you happen to get 'throwers you have a chance to get boxed in at main spawn.
Games start having a huge pressure on the gorge/comm to throw up the second hive asap, and the skulks to keep the marines under pressure. Small teams suffer from having effectively 2 commanders on aliens, larger games suffer from slow spawn rates from only 1 hive - so while marines are respawning and pushing at a good rate, skulks are waiting to respawn.
If your new hive is under attack, its pretty much better to rush the marine base and hope they beacon rather than try to save the hive. Is this the way it should be? Until fade is unlocked, this is the only option. And if the marines rush for grenade launchers or shotguns, they can deny a second hive almost indefinably.
I'd like to see a few things:
- Difference between 1 and 2 hives reduced. Perhaps as someone mentioned, making all species avaliable at all times and instead making hives reduce cost. Also would be nice is more hives improved effectiveness of upgrades (eg caprace at 3 hives being twice as effective as 1 hive).
- Hydras improved
- Fades nerfed a bit
- Shotguns not made so easy to access early game
- Cysts free and weaker, or explode on death for some damage (prevent marines knifing them). Atm they are a drain of res that constantly get killed.
Or just ignore me. I'm not nearly as experienced as most of you in NS2, these are just my current observations.
!?
what?!
that is going in the opposite direction if you ask me. that only encourages turtling for BOTH teams then, and removes, once again, some importance of tech points and therefore map control. the risk would be too great to waste tres on a hive that merely made you stronger, as abilities like fade and onos charge are extremely powerful, you would just collect res points / play defense, as the marines currently do!
instead, <u><b>increase </b></u>the importance of techpoints for marines to equal that of aliens (does not <i>have </i>to be tying tech to them, but something equally important.) and you've not only solved the problem at hand, but you've solved other issues as well, as mentioned previously.
It would be nice if marines had similar restrictions, instead of just insane amounts of money being required.
what?!
that is going in the opposite direction if you ask me. that only encourages turtling for BOTH teams then, and removes, once again, some importance of tech points and therefore map control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
eh??
Just wondering, you get that aliens and marines get more res for kills, rts right? only the backpeddling team will be the one turtling. one team will always be pushing the tempo of the match. it puts MORE importance on tech points and area control. the LESS control of the map you have that MORE of a chance you have of getting run over by the other team and losing. more res nodes, the faster your team techs up and destroys the other team. if youre a skulk and youre not doing anything, thats a damn long time waiting for res to go fade, especially if your teamates arent doing anything either and your com isnt taking res nodes. meanwhile, if your team isnt capping res you can be sure the other team IS.
area control
area control
AREA CONTROL
<!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->AREA CONTROL<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the risk would be too great to waste tres on a hive that merely made you stronger, as abilities like fade and onos charge are extremely powerful, you would just collect res points / play defense, as the marines currently do!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
jesus christ, did i seriously just read that?
-_-
IMO its not the cysts that make expansion for aliens so hard, its the lack of gorges, and early super strength of the marine teams. back in ns1 you had abilities you could throw out immediately like celerity, silence, carapace, regen, etc. ns2 needs more of these choices. a silence vent camping skulk with lerk support was golden in ns1. now lerk has to kamikaze into 1hit kill shotties to slightly annoy the marines while carapace is almost useless. hopefully shift brings back movement abilities from ns1 that were fun. as for cysts, people just spray them at the ground, forgetting the fact that you can place them in the nook and crannies of the roofs in maps. and instead of 3 res, i honestly think they should be two. but whats really hurting is the lack of gorges. there is almost no payoff for playing gorge, you dont really do much of anything anymore. and hydras are a complete joke. gorges should have the abilty to drop any available chamber. lerks should be able to shoot spores at distance and use umbra at 2 hives. skulks should have silence ability (outside of walk, come the f on). gorges were absolutely essential for alien area control, now most of the time marines can walk into a room and take it unless theres a fade to slow them down. marines have items instantly dropped for them while aliens have to wait and wait and wait for drifters to show up. why? when theres a gorge right there that SHOULD and USED TO have the same ability. a gorge shouldnt be able to drop whips, but should be able to drop a shade, crag or whatever sub chamber aliens have at that time.
Games start having a huge pressure on the gorge/comm to throw up the second hive asap, and the skulks to keep the marines under pressure. Small teams suffer from having effectively 2 commanders on aliens, larger games suffer from slow spawn rates from only 1 hive - so while marines are respawning and pushing at a good rate, skulks are waiting to respawn.
If your new hive is under attack, its pretty much better to rush the marine base and hope they beacon rather than try to save the hive. Is this the way it should be? Until fade is unlocked, this is the only option. And if the marines rush for grenade launchers or shotguns, they can deny a second hive almost indefinably.
I'd like to see a few things:
- Difference between 1 and 2 hives reduced. Perhaps as someone mentioned, making all species avaliable at all times and instead making hives reduce cost. Also would be nice is more hives improved effectiveness of upgrades (eg caprace at 3 hives being twice as effective as 1 hive).
- Hydras improved
- Fades nerfed a bit
- Shotguns not made so easy to access early game
- Cysts free and weaker, or explode on death for some damage (prevent marines knifing them). Atm they are a drain of res that constantly get killed.
Or just ignore me. I'm not nearly as experienced as most of you in NS2, these are just my current observations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i agree with almost everything you said, except leave the fade alone. ffs you ppl have been complaining about fade for so gd long now. and in turn the devs have crippled it patch after patch after patch. guess what, fade is STILL strong. its a COSTLY LIFEFORM ITS SUPPOSED TO BE STRONG. and you can STILL 2-3 hit a fade. so you want to weaken the already weak fade? what else can you do to it? they have so little adren now you can pick them off when they run away lol. its like inbetween ns1-2 they contracted faids and cant attack anymore, but they need to be nerfed.. more?
cysts cant be free, it would make alien expansion way too easy early on.
only thing shotgun needs if damage fall off at mid range.
nerd rage, much?
there aren't "res for kills" anymore, rfk was removed. where have you been?
a backpedaling team is just that, and not necessarily turtling, and even then there area counters to promote the tug of war gameplay.
wth are you going on about with res points?? we all know how they work, thats not the discussion. the discussion at hand is untying lifeforms to hives will <b>LESSEN </b>the importance of techpoints, because as i said, if i get fade without having to worry about capping that tech point then that means its' importance is <b>LESSENED</b>.
this method would also not solve other issues like the imbalance in the ways to disable a team's method of spawning, multiple spawning locations, vulnerability of locations etc.
doing the method i suggest WOULD solve the issue at hand, creating asymmetry between how each team treats map control AND techpoints... and it solves these other issues mentioned, as well.
<!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->LOGIC!<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->did that large font help emphasize my point? no?.. .oh wasn't that what it was supposed to do?...<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Anyway, why even bother with the question 'are aliens too weak at 1 hive' when its quite obvious both teams are weak with one base/hive. And should be.
How many times have you lost to skulk rush as Marines? Early shotty rush as Aliens? Everyone is weak at one/base hive, whats the point of having a 6 tech point map? It would be 'X number of lane(s)' style maps otherwise.
The real (and amazingly tough, but we all have faith in Charlie, no pressure dude) question is, how to make 2v1 bases a winnable position for either side?
PS: Oh, and 'faids' gets 1 million geek points, feaking awsome quote sir.
cysts cant be free, it would make alien expansion way too easy early on.
only thing shotgun needs if damage fall off at mid range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think if shotgun was nerfed as you said, fade would definitely need nerfing too. Atm the only real threat to a fade is the entire marine team (which he should stay away from anyway), or a few people with shotguns. Fades have terrible adrenaline and health is only ok vs shotguns, so not sure how it could be nerfed more.
Definitly not true.
The shotgun would need a damage falloff nerf, I agree.
But the fades HP doesn't need to be lowered.
Fades with carapace currently die to two SG shots with weapons 0.
With momentum changes coming to the blink, the fade will very likely be much more visible and attackable for marines.
That will mostly affect the rifle vs fade, and fade vs jetpack situations.
I think the fade without carapace should be able to <i>barely</i> survive two full SG blasts at weapons 0.
Or a marine with a flamethrower supported by a second marine. Flamethrower drains their energy really goddamn fast. No energy = no escape = dead fade.
The flamer doesn't drain adrenaline.
It prevents adrenaline regeneration by reducing the regen to 25% of normal when on fire.
That mean the fade have to make a massive mistake when engaging flamers to not be able to blink away from the scene.
It prevents adrenaline regeneration by reducing the regen to 25% of normal when on fire.
That mean the fade have to make a massive mistake when engaging flamers to not be able to blink away from the scene.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? I always felt like it also drained it, but I guess I stand corrected. 75% hit on regen is still huge though.
hp/armor wise fades are actually too weak
fix up blink and increase their hp/armor again
there aren't "res for kills" anymore, rfk was removed. where have you been?
a backpedaling team is just that, and not necessarily turtling, and even then there area counters to promote the tug of war gameplay.
wth are you going on about with res points?? we all know how they work, thats not the discussion. the discussion at hand is untying lifeforms to hives will <b>LESSEN </b>the importance of techpoints, because as i said, if i get fade without having to worry about capping that tech point then that means its' importance is <b>LESSENED</b>.
this method would also not solve other issues like the imbalance in the ways to disable a team's method of spawning, multiple spawning locations, vulnerability of locations etc.
doing the method i suggest WOULD solve the issue at hand, creating asymmetry between how each team treats map control AND techpoints... and it solves these other issues mentioned, as well.
<!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->LOGIC!<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->did that large font help emphasize my point? no?.. .oh wasn't that what it was supposed to do?...<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
just clueless, stop responding.
btw, read the thread topic
protip, it doesnt contain anything about "untying lifeforms to hives"
christ you dont even read what youre even typing.
"The best defense is a good offense" - Carl von Clausewitz
But what if your enemy's mistake is that they are not forcing you to use defenses?
And dat be true!
<!--quoteo(post=1906253:date=Feb 23 2012, 12:49 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Feb 23 2012, 12:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The flamer doesn't drain adrenaline.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps it should?
The shotgun would need a damage falloff nerf, I agree.
But the fades HP doesn't need to be lowered.
Fades with carapace currently die to two SG shots with weapons 0.
With momentum changes coming to the blink, the fade will very likely be much more visible and attackable for marines.
That will mostly affect the rifle vs fade, and fade vs jetpack situations.
I think the fade without carapace should be able to <i>barely</i> survive two full SG blasts at weapons 0.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hm if this is true, then I support this:
<!--quoteo(post=1906265:date=Feb 23 2012, 08:31 AM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Feb 23 2012, 08:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->its still the blink part of fade thats broken
hp/armor wise fades are actually too weak
fix up blink and increase their hp/armor again<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->