<!--quoteo(post=1908587:date=Mar 1 2012, 06:47 AM:name=Kiai)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiai @ Mar 1 2012, 06:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908587"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would be cool if the Lerk could pick up the acid ball from the whip and drop it like a bomb on marines/buildings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Not making it an active ability of the lerk/gorge, but a synergy of the whip and lerk is really a fun idea.
<!--quoteo(post=1908654:date=Mar 1 2012, 10:40 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Mar 1 2012, 10:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not in 1.00. I distinctly remember the argument for moving acid rocket up a hive or removing it entirely due to how it affected the Fade role (instead of teleporting frontline warrior it was a hide-behind-walls-and-spam "warrior").
Lerk only ever had bilebomb in some pre-release versions though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Must've been 1.03 or 1.04.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1908585:date=Mar 1 2012, 06:42 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 1 2012, 06:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908585"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->shouldnt bile bomb remain with gorge, and umbra with lerk?? these just make so much more sense in my mind when i envision them in practice..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1 The best tactic would be to go all lerks and survive until the 2nd hive is up, fly to the marine base with massive rain of bilebomb. GG.
The gorge is slow, and needs cover to effectively bilebomb marine structures. Lerk doesn't require cover, he can easily escape if he plays carefully. Imagine the manouvrebility of the lerk combined with bilebomb, even if it was nerfed in damage and range. For example in a 6v6 game, aliens can easily go 5 lerks and rush the CC with spikes, we all know how powerful that can be, if played right. Imagine 5 lerks with bilebomb doing this. It will result in game over for the marines, every time. With the manouvrebility of the lerk, I don't think it's a great idea to let it be a good structure killer.
so the lerk flies in to drop bile bomb? does it mean he can only drop it while in flight?
it doesn't make sense to me, I would actually need to see how it could work in actual gameplay before I comment. although at this point it sounds wrong.
why can't we just add umbra and lerk bite to the lerk? why must we go through these silly changes till we realize it worked nicely before for <u>years</u>.
<!--quoteo(post=1908847:date=Mar 1 2012, 10:47 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Mar 1 2012, 10:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908847"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With the manouvrebility of the lerk, I don't think it's a great idea to let it be a good structure killer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was thinking about this, in early build spikes were strong against building, and it was easy as a lerk to just go somewhere, snipe a building and escape before marines would come back, go on the other side of the map and snipe another building, the poor marines were just running behind.
<!--quoteo(post=1908855:date=Mar 1 2012, 06:03 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Mar 1 2012, 06:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so the lerk flies in to drop bile bomb? does it mean he can only drop it while in flight?
it doesn't make sense to me, I would actually need to see how it could work in actual gameplay before I comment. although at this point it sounds wrong.
why can't we just add umbra and lerk bite to the lerk? why must we go through these silly changes till we realize it worked nicely before for <u>years</u>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not the same game, no matter how hard you try to wish it away.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1908881:date=Mar 1 2012, 02:37 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Mar 1 2012, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908881"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was thinking about this, in early build spikes were strong against building, and it was easy as a lerk to just go somewhere, snipe a building and escape before marines would come back, go on the other side of the map and snipe another building, the poor marines were just running behind.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now we have welders, which should greatly reduce the effectiveness of this tactic.
I'm glad to see this change, since many of the alien classes were suffering from role confusion. The gorge was just the worse since it had the bilebomb anti-structure ability, support abilities (heal, spit), and structure building (mini-cyst, hydra, goo-wall). When team rushing a marine base, I was always conflicted about whether I should be bilebombing structures or healing onos/fades/lerks.
<!--quoteo(post=1908901:date=Mar 2 2012, 12:21 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 2 2012, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now we have welders, which should greatly reduce the effectiveness of this tactic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> a single gas pass and this point is rendered invalid :p
<!--quoteo(post=1908791:date=Mar 1 2012, 02:52 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Mar 1 2012, 02:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908791"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because lerk rushes were destroying Com Chairs in seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fun fact: you can still do this with even a small team of players all morphing lerk. The trickle-down effect is that it's an enormous hassle to shoot down extractors in a normal game. That change was a really bad knee-jerk reaction.
<!--quoteo(post=1908901:date=Mar 1 2012, 07:21 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 1 2012, 07:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm glad to see this change, since many of the alien classes were suffering from role confusion. The gorge was just the worse since it had the bilebomb anti-structure ability, support abilities (heal, spit), and structure building (mini-cyst, hydra, goo-wall). When team rushing a marine base, I was always conflicted about whether I should be bilebombing structures or healing onos/fades/lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you get confused, it's because of lack of experience/understanding and not the game's role design. In a big push, you should be healing AND biling AND sliding AND spitting, depending on what you need most at a particular moment. If your teammates aren't taking heaps of damage, focus more on bile, and that sort of thing.
With bile bomb moved off the gorge, you have strictly less to do in these combat situations, and the lerk has more non-combat tasks to do (which points to how they've given up trying to make it work in combat). If you enjoy using bile bomb at all right now, I don't think you'll enjoy using it when the lifeform costs 3 times as much and dies much more easily.
NS1 has had bile bomb, spore, umbra, heals, etc all spread across the lifeforms the same way for a long time, and I haven't seen anyone make a serious argument for role confusion in that game. How is NS2 different?
Giving Lerks bile bomb feels like a really bad attempt at trying to make people use the Lerk. To me it feels like they have no idea what they are doing with the Lerk.
As it stands, the Lerk is not worth the 30 PRes, and still not worth the 30 res for bile bomb with two hives when you can evolve into a more useful unit (Fade).
Gorges should keep bile bomb. Lerks need to get bite back, move spikes to hive 2 and revert the nerfs they received. Primal Scream and Umbra would make a nice addition to them as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1908591:date=Mar 1 2012, 12:50 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 1 2012, 12:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908591"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd rather the Lerk be able to kill a player, but maybe I'm out of line...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1908992:date=Mar 2 2012, 02:40 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Mar 2 2012, 02:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908992"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As it stands, the Lerk is not worth the 30 PRes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Every game with proper players I have seen had at least one Lerk. The Lerk is essential to keeping map control and making the early skulks survive and kill marines. It's very hard to be a good Lerk and actually survive for longer than a minute, but if used right, a Lerk is crucial to every alien team.
<!--quoteo(post=1908993:date=Mar 1 2012, 09:45 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Mar 1 2012, 09:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908993"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Every game with proper players I have seen had at least one Lerk. The Lerk is essential to keeping map control and making the early skulks survive and kill marines. It's very hard to be a good Lerk and actually survive for longer than a minute, but if used right, a Lerk is crucial to every alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would love to agree, but I only know like 5 people who can be more effective as a lerk than another lifeform, and only against stray dimwit opponents.
As for returning bite, I really don't think it's necessary. The spike shotgun is basically a better version of bite. What needs tweaking is the damage/health numbers. Yes, umbra and scream would be nice too. Or something different and new (not bile bomb!)
<!--quoteo(post=1908993:date=Mar 1 2012, 08:45 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Mar 1 2012, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908993"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Every game with proper players I have seen had at least one Lerk. The Lerk is essential to keeping map control and making the early skulks survive and kill marines. It's very hard to be a good Lerk and actually survive for longer than a minute, but if used right, a Lerk is crucial to every alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I've also noticed that the alien team is also hindered when there are more than a couple lerks on the team. Something is obviously wrong with the life-form when only one or two people (or no one at all) want to go lerk. That would be like only one or two marines grabbing a shotgun and we all know that definitely not so.
Gorges are the support life form. 30 res for a life-form with an identity crisis that has the inability to survive against a marine that knows how to aim is a joke.
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1909001:date=Mar 2 2012, 02:59 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 2 2012, 02:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909001"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would love to agree, but I only know like 5 people who can be more effective as a lerk than another lifeform, and only against stray dimwit opponents.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That depends on what kind of player environments you play in. I don't play on public servers anymore, only on the ENSL gathers, which have a reasonably high skill level compared to pubs and (in particular) are a lot more organized. You don't have any "stray dimwit" guys in there to begin with. I did already say that there are not many people who can play Lerk effectively, but if you had seen them play and seen a match without Lerk in comparison, you'd think otherwise. I'd say an alien team without a good Lerk is a lot more likely to lose, compared to a team with one (or even two).
@MisterNubs: Just like Gorges, Lerks are currently more of a support class. They need others to do the actual kills, unless you have godly aim with your shotgun spikes while also sporing, but they provide crucial support by hindering the marine's sight and making them easy kills for skulks. If I were a better Lerk, I'd demonstrate it by joining you on a server and annoying the heck out of you.
<!--quoteo(post=1909002:date=Mar 1 2012, 10:02 PM:name=Daphisto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daphisto @ Mar 1 2012, 10:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1 to UWE for at least attempting to re-purpose the lerk.
I look forward to this change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
repurposing it into a gorge with 3 times the cost and no heal spray
why can't it have the purpose it has now? it's a unique role and one that has existed in the NS series for 10 years!
<!--quoteo(post=1909005:date=Mar 1 2012, 09:06 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Mar 1 2012, 09:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909005"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@MisterNubs: Just like Gorges, <b>Lerks are currently more of a support class.</b> They need others to do the actual kills, unless you have godly aim with your shotgun spikes while also sporing, but they provide crucial support by hindering the marine's sight and making them easy kills for skulks. If I were a better Lerk, I'd demonstrate it by joining you on a server and annoying the heck out of you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps this is why there is such a disparity between Aliens with one hive (being weak) and Aliens with two hives (vastly stronger because of fades). Aliens do not need "two" support life-forms during the early portions of the game.
Lerks need to have killing power during the early/mid game. Then they can transition into pseudo-support life-forms during the mid/late game so they're still relevant, but bile bomb is not the answer.
Gorges spamming spray heal is pretty damn effective during combat and they're 20 res cheaper.
<!--quoteo(post=1909006:date=Mar 1 2012, 10:07 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 1 2012, 10:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909006"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->repurposing it into a gorge with 3 times the cost and no heal spray
why can't it have the purpose it has now? it's a unique role and one that has existed in the NS series for 10 years!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can only assume that maybe the team is getting exhausted from tweaking the Lerk back and fourth and maybe wants to try something new.
Does anyone know what the Lerk's current role is? Is it supposed to be a front-line fighter? Some sort of support unit?
<!--quoteo(post=1909014:date=Mar 1 2012, 10:28 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Mar 1 2012, 10:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909014"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps this is why there is such a disparity between Aliens with one hive (being weak) and Aliens with two hives (vastly stronger because of fades). Aliens do not need "two" support life-forms during the early portions of the game.
Lerks need to have killing power during the early/mid game. Then they can transition into pseudo-support life-forms during the mid/late game so they're still relevant, but bile bomb is not the answer.
Gorges spamming spray heal is pretty damn effective during combat and they're 20 res cheaper.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pairing together bile bomb with the mobility and speed of the Lerk should prove to be powerful, although no one's really sure yet at this point what UWE intends to do with the damage values of the bile bomb when it moves to the Lerk.
Hm. Having played on/off since 1.04, I am inclined to trust UWE, at least as far as seeing it in-game, before passing judgement. Even if I have been a grudging skeptic lately, my love and trust is still with Charlie and the boys.
Wow. I just realized, I remember when Flayra became Charlie... I r oldz...
<!--quoteo(post=1909001:date=Mar 2 2012, 01:59 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 2 2012, 01:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909001"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would love to agree, but I only know like 5 people who can be more effective as a lerk than another lifeform, and only against stray dimwit opponents.
As for returning bite, I really don't think it's necessary. The spike shotgun is basically a better version of bite. What needs tweaking is the damage/health numbers. Yes, umbra and scream would be nice too. Or something different and new (not bile bomb!)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's rather excellent as a sort of useful alternative to the skulk.
Works well if you use it to ambush marines and support attacks. It's rubbish on its own against numbers of marines because it has such low health, but if you aren't the only target you can really help with damage dealing/distraction with spores. If you give it bile bomb this only enhances the support role.
One of the best ways I've found to use if you can't find anything else to do is play it more or less like a skulk, fly up into the roof, hang onto the ceiling, and then wait for the marines to pass by, then attack the rearmost one.
It's amazingly effective if you say, hang out in the roof of reactor on summit, wait for the marines to attack alien start, and then kill the ones at the back once they engage the skulks. Because you can attack from range they tend to take longer to see you, so you can usually get a kill without exposing yourself to much danger, then you can push forward and pick off the injured ones at the front of the group.
<!--quoteo(post=1909005:date=Mar 2 2012, 03:06 AM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Mar 2 2012, 03:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909005"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't have any "stray dimwit" guys in there to begin with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well there is me, I die almost every time I meet swalk as lerk (him being a lerk).
I have however been practicing my lerking, and on public servers I can kill virtually any marine 1on1, and survive against groups of players long enough to take out one before having to heal. With the support of a skulk however, spores can cause a lerk/skulk team that works together to take down groups up to 4-5 players easily.
like I said before, giving lerks bilebomb would make it absolutely impossible for marines to have any kind of mapcontrol, as they are simply too fast and maneuverable. The combination of an area denial attack like gas, with bilebomb against structures, means macs and welders can't be used (bilebomb vs mac, gas vs welders), and would take down any resource towers that aren't constantly manned.
<!--quoteo(post=1909035:date=Mar 1 2012, 10:05 PM:name=Biglines)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Biglines @ Mar 1 2012, 10:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909035"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well there is me, I die almost every time I meet swalk as lerk (him being a lerk).
I have however been practicing my lerking, and on public servers I can kill virtually any marine 1on1, and survive against groups of players long enough to take out one before having to heal. With the support of a skulk however, spores can cause a lerk/skulk team that works together to take down groups up to 4-5 players easily.
like I said before, giving lerks bilebomb would make it absolutely impossible for marines to have any kind of mapcontrol, as they are simply too fast and maneuverable. The combination of an area denial attack like gas, with bilebomb against structures, means macs and welders can't be used (bilebomb vs mac, gas vs welders), and would take down any resource towers that aren't constantly manned.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A fair summation, in my estimation. It really depends on enery, really. If the BileBomb takes, say 75% energy, the problem might solve itself.
Again, I'd want to see it in-game before passing any judgement.
<!--quoteo(post=1909040:date=Mar 1 2012, 09:15 PM:name=Silverwing)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Silverwing @ Mar 1 2012, 09:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A fair summation, in my estimation. It really depends on enery, really. If the BileBomb takes, say 75% energy, the problem might solve itself.
Again, I'd want to see it in-game before passing any judgement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was thinking in regards to the carpet-bombing suggestion that if the Lerk only had enough total adrenaline to bomb maybe 2 CCs / 3 Armories worth of distance, it would be a great way to limit his ability to baserape while rewarding careful flight planning. Energy usage has a lot of potential for balancing Lerk mechanics.
I do have to say id much rather have the lerk use it in a carpet bomb manner.
There is just something that does not sit right in my head about a creature who can sit on top of ceilings using Bile bomb in the same manner Gorges do.
Either that or it better cost so much energy you can get off 2, maybe 3 shots before you're spent.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1909035:date=Mar 1 2012, 07:05 PM:name=Biglines)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Biglines @ Mar 1 2012, 07:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909035"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->like I said before, giving lerks bilebomb would make it absolutely impossible for marines to have any kind of mapcontrol, as they are simply too fast and maneuverable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
best point so far.
add to it that you now increased the effectiveness of the already superior aliens by not only the point above but also because the gorges will now <b>ONLY HEAL</b> the rest of the players instead of trading off between healing and destroying enemy buildings when attempting to break enemy lines/bases. it was a great meta game that added a trade off. now its just gonna be "medics" on a "heavy" every time.
also, how do you approach the issue of marines not being able to track the species responsible for destroying their CC during all that chaos, as it flies in and out of rooms at incredible speeds? people have performance issues already concerning being able to track skulks effectively, let alone speedy, highly focused and game ending lerks? (did i just say game ending lerks? yikes)
we haven't even seen the implementation of it yet, let's hold off on the doomsday scenarios. lerks need a buff to their abilities to give it a defined role in game, this could solidify it as a support class. now the question becomes, does the alien team need two support classes?
Comments
+1
Not making it an active ability of the lerk/gorge, but a synergy of the whip and lerk is really a fun idea.
Lerk only ever had bilebomb in some pre-release versions though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Must've been 1.03 or 1.04.
these just make so much more sense in my mind when i envision them in practice..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
The best tactic would be to go all lerks and survive until the 2nd hive is up, fly to the marine base with massive rain of bilebomb.
GG.
The gorge is slow, and needs cover to effectively bilebomb marine structures.
Lerk doesn't require cover, he can easily escape if he plays carefully.
Imagine the manouvrebility of the lerk combined with bilebomb, even if it was nerfed in damage and range.
For example in a 6v6 game, aliens can easily go 5 lerks and rush the CC with spikes, we all know how powerful that can be, if played right.
Imagine 5 lerks with bilebomb doing this. It will result in game over for the marines, every time.
With the manouvrebility of the lerk, I don't think it's a great idea to let it be a good structure killer.
it doesn't make sense to me, I would actually need to see how it could work in actual gameplay before I comment.
although at this point it sounds wrong.
why can't we just add umbra and lerk bite to the lerk? why must we go through these silly changes till we realize it worked nicely before for <u>years</u>.
I was thinking about this, in early build spikes were strong against building, and it was easy as a lerk to just go somewhere, snipe a building and escape before marines would come back, go on the other side of the map and snipe another building, the poor marines were just running behind.
it doesn't make sense to me, I would actually need to see how it could work in actual gameplay before I comment.
although at this point it sounds wrong.
why can't we just add umbra and lerk bite to the lerk? why must we go through these silly changes till we realize it worked nicely before for <u>years</u>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not the same game, no matter how hard you try to wish it away.
Now we have welders, which should greatly reduce the effectiveness of this tactic.
I'm glad to see this change, since many of the alien classes were suffering from role confusion. The gorge was just the worse since it had the bilebomb anti-structure ability, support abilities (heal, spit), and structure building (mini-cyst, hydra, goo-wall). When team rushing a marine base, I was always conflicted about whether I should be bilebombing structures or healing onos/fades/lerks.
a single gas pass and this point is rendered invalid :p
Fun fact: you can still do this with even a small team of players all morphing lerk.
The trickle-down effect is that it's an enormous hassle to shoot down extractors in a normal game. That change was a really bad knee-jerk reaction.
<!--quoteo(post=1908901:date=Mar 1 2012, 07:21 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 1 2012, 07:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm glad to see this change, since many of the alien classes were suffering from role confusion. The gorge was just the worse since it had the bilebomb anti-structure ability, support abilities (heal, spit), and structure building (mini-cyst, hydra, goo-wall). When team rushing a marine base, I was always conflicted about whether I should be bilebombing structures or healing onos/fades/lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you get confused, it's because of lack of experience/understanding and not the game's role design.
In a big push, you should be healing AND biling AND sliding AND spitting, depending on what you need most at a particular moment. If your teammates aren't taking heaps of damage, focus more on bile, and that sort of thing.
With bile bomb moved off the gorge, you have strictly less to do in these combat situations, and the lerk has more non-combat tasks to do (which points to how they've given up trying to make it work in combat). If you enjoy using bile bomb at all right now, I don't think you'll enjoy using it when the lifeform costs 3 times as much and dies much more easily.
NS1 has had bile bomb, spore, umbra, heals, etc all spread across the lifeforms the same way for a long time, and I haven't seen anyone make a serious argument for role confusion in that game. How is NS2 different?
As it stands, the Lerk is not worth the 30 PRes, and still not worth the 30 res for bile bomb with two hives when you can evolve into a more useful unit (Fade).
Gorges should keep bile bomb. Lerks need to get bite back, move spikes to hive 2 and revert the nerfs they received. Primal Scream and Umbra would make a nice addition to them as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1908591:date=Mar 1 2012, 12:50 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 1 2012, 12:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908591"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd rather the Lerk be able to kill a player, but maybe I'm out of line...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Every game with proper players I have seen had at least one Lerk. The Lerk is essential to keeping map control and making the early skulks survive and kill marines.
It's very hard to be a good Lerk and actually survive for longer than a minute, but if used right, a Lerk is crucial to every alien team.
It's very hard to be a good Lerk and actually survive for longer than a minute, but if used right, a Lerk is crucial to every alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would love to agree, but I only know like 5 people who can be more effective as a lerk than another lifeform, and only against stray dimwit opponents.
As for returning bite, I really don't think it's necessary. The spike shotgun is basically a better version of bite. What needs tweaking is the damage/health numbers. Yes, umbra and scream would be nice too. Or something different and new (not bile bomb!)
I look forward to this change.
It's very hard to be a good Lerk and actually survive for longer than a minute, but if used right, a Lerk is crucial to every alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I've also noticed that the alien team is also hindered when there are more than a couple lerks on the team. Something is obviously wrong with the life-form when only one or two people (or no one at all) want to go lerk. That would be like only one or two marines grabbing a shotgun and we all know that definitely not so.
Gorges are the support life form. 30 res for a life-form with an identity crisis that has the inability to survive against a marine that knows how to aim is a joke.
That depends on what kind of player environments you play in. I don't play on public servers anymore, only on the ENSL gathers, which have a reasonably high skill level compared to pubs and (in particular) are a lot more organized. You don't have any "stray dimwit" guys in there to begin with.
I did already say that there are not many people who can play Lerk effectively, but if you had seen them play and seen a match without Lerk in comparison, you'd think otherwise. I'd say an alien team without a good Lerk is a lot more likely to lose, compared to a team with one (or even two).
@MisterNubs: Just like Gorges, Lerks are currently more of a support class. They need others to do the actual kills, unless you have godly aim with your shotgun spikes while also sporing, but they provide crucial support by hindering the marine's sight and making them easy kills for skulks. If I were a better Lerk, I'd demonstrate it by joining you on a server and annoying the heck out of you.
I look forward to this change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
repurposing it into a gorge with 3 times the cost and no heal spray
why can't it have the purpose it has now? it's a unique role and one that has existed in the NS series for 10 years!
Perhaps this is why there is such a disparity between Aliens with one hive (being weak) and Aliens with two hives (vastly stronger because of fades). Aliens do not need "two" support life-forms during the early portions of the game.
Lerks need to have killing power during the early/mid game. Then they can transition into pseudo-support life-forms during the mid/late game so they're still relevant, but bile bomb is not the answer.
Gorges spamming spray heal is pretty damn effective during combat and they're 20 res cheaper.
why can't it have the purpose it has now? it's a unique role and one that has existed in the NS series for 10 years!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can only assume that maybe the team is getting exhausted from tweaking the Lerk back and fourth and maybe wants to try something new.
Does anyone know what the Lerk's current role is? Is it supposed to be a front-line fighter? Some sort of support unit?
Lerks need to have killing power during the early/mid game. Then they can transition into pseudo-support life-forms during the mid/late game so they're still relevant, but bile bomb is not the answer.
Gorges spamming spray heal is pretty damn effective during combat and they're 20 res cheaper.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pairing together bile bomb with the mobility and speed of the Lerk should prove to be powerful, although no one's really sure yet at this point what UWE intends to do with the damage values of the bile bomb when it moves to the Lerk.
Wow. I just realized, I remember when Flayra became Charlie... I r oldz...
::edit::: Typo
As for returning bite, I really don't think it's necessary. The spike shotgun is basically a better version of bite. What needs tweaking is the damage/health numbers. Yes, umbra and scream would be nice too. Or something different and new (not bile bomb!)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's rather excellent as a sort of useful alternative to the skulk.
Works well if you use it to ambush marines and support attacks. It's rubbish on its own against numbers of marines because it has such low health, but if you aren't the only target you can really help with damage dealing/distraction with spores. If you give it bile bomb this only enhances the support role.
One of the best ways I've found to use if you can't find anything else to do is play it more or less like a skulk, fly up into the roof, hang onto the ceiling, and then wait for the marines to pass by, then attack the rearmost one.
It's amazingly effective if you say, hang out in the roof of reactor on summit, wait for the marines to attack alien start, and then kill the ones at the back once they engage the skulks. Because you can attack from range they tend to take longer to see you, so you can usually get a kill without exposing yourself to much danger, then you can push forward and pick off the injured ones at the front of the group.
Well there is me, I die almost every time I meet swalk as lerk (him being a lerk).
I have however been practicing my lerking, and on public servers I can kill virtually any marine 1on1, and survive against groups of players long enough to take out one before having to heal. With the support of a skulk however, spores can cause a lerk/skulk team that works together to take down groups up to 4-5 players easily.
like I said before, giving lerks bilebomb would make it absolutely impossible for marines to have any kind of mapcontrol, as they are simply too fast and maneuverable. The combination of an area denial attack like gas, with bilebomb against structures, means macs and welders can't be used (bilebomb vs mac, gas vs welders), and would take down any resource towers that aren't constantly manned.
I have however been practicing my lerking, and on public servers I can kill virtually any marine 1on1, and survive against groups of players long enough to take out one before having to heal. With the support of a skulk however, spores can cause a lerk/skulk team that works together to take down groups up to 4-5 players easily.
like I said before, giving lerks bilebomb would make it absolutely impossible for marines to have any kind of mapcontrol, as they are simply too fast and maneuverable. The combination of an area denial attack like gas, with bilebomb against structures, means macs and welders can't be used (bilebomb vs mac, gas vs welders), and would take down any resource towers that aren't constantly manned.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A fair summation, in my estimation. It really depends on enery, really. If the BileBomb takes, say 75% energy, the problem might solve itself.
Again, I'd want to see it in-game before passing any judgement.
Again, I'd want to see it in-game before passing any judgement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was thinking in regards to the carpet-bombing suggestion that if the Lerk only had enough total adrenaline to bomb maybe 2 CCs / 3 Armories worth of distance, it would be a great way to limit his ability to baserape while rewarding careful flight planning. Energy usage has a lot of potential for balancing Lerk mechanics.
There is just something that does not sit right in my head about a creature who can sit on top of ceilings using Bile bomb in the same manner Gorges do.
Either that or it better cost so much energy you can get off 2, maybe 3 shots before you're spent.
best point so far.
add to it that you now increased the effectiveness of the already superior aliens by not only the point above but also because the gorges will now <b>ONLY HEAL</b> the rest of the players instead of trading off between healing and destroying enemy buildings when attempting to break enemy lines/bases. it was a great meta game that added a trade off. now its just gonna be "medics" on a "heavy" every time.
also, how do you approach the issue of marines not being able to track the species responsible for destroying their CC during all that chaos, as it flies in and out of rooms at incredible speeds? people have performance issues already concerning being able to track skulks effectively, let alone speedy, highly focused and game ending lerks? (did i just say game ending lerks? yikes)