Since it also came up, I also want to note something on the infestation. I think it is perfectly fine that aliens seen marines on infestation because I think it adds some value into the game unlike marines being able to see aliens. After all, aliens are the biological superior race and seeing marines on the infestation fits well into the atmosphere.
Gameplaywise it is true it can prevent ninja attacks, but it also makes jetpack more useful as you can avoid detection. Additonally you can lure aliens into attacking you by stepping on the infestation for a while, then going back into some corner and waiting for them to come. But it also makes ninja phase gates even more effective as aliens usually don't except it.
The Marine ESP is just an uncessary advantage and it destroys the gameplay aspect of being sneaky as whatever alien form since they can spot you anyway.
+1 to only show aliens on the minimap, who: <ul><li>are doing or receiving damage or</li><li>are in the crosshair of one marine</li></ul>
This way, they won't show up when actually hiding in a dark spot and a marine just looks in their general direction.
And on a side note: The Marine ESP is in no way the same as the alien ESP with infestation. <ol type='1'><li>a marine can start firing and do damage, when seeing an alien on his minimap. An alien can't.</li><li>a marine can use its esp on the whole map, an alien only in its own territory.</li><li>skulk gameplay depends strongly on ambushes, marines not.</li><li>marines who are killing cysts are a great danger for the whole alien team, an alien killing a marine with a good set ambush is not.</li></ol> Long story short: It may require some balancing as marines would move more careful and with that, more slowly. But I think it would add much to the atmosphere and feel of the game. Besides, it is very frustrating as alien, when hiding in a dark spot and get shot immediately after a marine enters the room.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
1. an alien has the mobility to get to any part of their infestation the second they see a marine on their territory. a Marine cant. 2. an alien can use esp anywhere on their controlled territory - continuously. marines cant 3. alien gameplay depends largely on mobility, so knowing who is where at all times is a massive additional advantage with map control. 4. aliens killing RTs on the far side of the map are a great danger to marines who cannot contest it in time (despite using nano shield)
they are asymmetric, but contain similarities in this minimap ESP issue. I believe both should be removed - skulks need ambushing, and marines need to be able to have a shot at ninja tactics despite their slowness. make damage the requirement. if a marine hurts a cyst, they deserve it.
<!--quoteo(post=1912936:date=Mar 14 2012, 07:59 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 14 2012, 07:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1912936"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. an alien has the mobility to get to any part of their infestation the second they see a marine on their territory. a Marine cant. 2. an alien can use esp anywhere on their controlled territory - continuously. marines cant 3. alien gameplay depends largely on mobility, so knowing who is where at all times is a massive additional advantage with map control. 4. aliens killing RTs on the far side of the map are a great danger to marines who cannot contest it in time (despite using nano shield)
they are asymmetric, but contain similarities in this minimap ESP issue. I believe both should be removed - skulks need ambushing, and marines need to be able to have a shot at ninja tactics despite their slowness. make damage the requirement. if a marine hurts a cyst, they deserve it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Has nothing to do with ESP and is therefor no argument. 2. No argument, because it's no drawback in combat. A meele-fighter has no real advantage in combat with this. 3. The same argument as 2nd. It is an advantage for map control but not a disadvantage for marines to have no everytime-surround-ESP 4. Simply wrong. The marines should not build undefendable RTs. And if they do, they can recycle with ease.
All your arguments are only one (map control related). You didn't even mention the real advantages of ESP. And this is in combat. Even more, when having melee vs ranged. I sure would like to have more possibilities in ninja tactics as marines. But you can't build on infestation, so it doesn't matter if they show you on damage or when you are near. Your suggestion would only lead to unavoidable Hive rushs, where most aliens couldn't get there in time. The ESP on infestation isn't really a combat advantage (and if, then only in their territory, where they deserve it.) The ESP of a marine is killing the atmosphere and ruining sneaky skulk gameplay.
There's no urgent need to contest a remote RT being chewed on. Dubstep bubble it, recycle it (getting back 75% of it's value, for no net loss if it's been up for at least 24 seconds), and the next time a marine cruises through the area set it up again. Aliens losing RTs happens less often (due to cyst chains making it a little less likely they'll have truly remote RTs, and due to marines not being as mobile as skulks for the most part) but is significantly more costly.
I would assume UWE will be updating and addressing the mini-map issues to be in sync with when they make adjustments to observatory motion tracking ie: alien locations are updated based on pings rather than in real time and somewhat equivalent change to the mini-map.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1912938:date=Mar 14 2012, 11:11 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Mar 14 2012, 11:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1912938"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Has nothing to do with ESP and is therefor no argument. 2. No argument, because it's no drawback in combat. A meele-fighter has no real advantage in combat with this. 3. The same argument as 2nd. It is an advantage for map control but not a disadvantage for marines to have no everytime-surround-ESP 4. Simply wrong. The marines should not build undefendable RTs. And if they do, they can recycle with ease.
All your arguments are only one (map control related). You didn't even mention the real advantages of ESP. And this is in combat. Even more, when having melee vs ranged. I sure would like to have more possibilities in ninja tactics as marines. But you can't build on infestation, so it doesn't matter if they show you on damage or when you are near. Your suggestion would only lead to unavoidable Hive rushs, where most aliens couldn't get there in time. The ESP on infestation isn't really a combat advantage (and if, then only in their territory, where they deserve it.) The ESP of a marine is killing the atmosphere and ruining sneaky skulk gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1. yes it does?? their ESP allows them a tactical advantage marines don't have with a HUGE area, and are then able to react to it much faster than a marine ever would, remove ESP from this scenario and aliens are less likely to defend areas as well. 2. it doesn't matter if they are melee or ranged? one has a CONTINUOUS HANDICAP, as powerful as marine ESP is, even theirs is brief and infrequent? if you don't see how this influences the direction of combat and combative decisions then i really feel you aren't playing enough -especially organized matches. 3. your English makes you difficult to understand on this point so i have nothing to say here. 4.<b> No kidding</b>, just like aliens shouldnt be making un defendable cysts?? that was obviously implied. i dont believe ANY commander drops and RT or a Cyst with the thinking "this is perfect, i wont be able to defend this!" no. they have every intention of defending this and holding it obviously. some are more important than others however, especially early game. but the fact remains that both cysts and powernodes are contested all the time, and while you cant see a skulk make it behind your lines to take one down, you can sure see as many marines for a long time coming if you so choose.
<i>"All your arguments are only one (map control related). You didn't even mention the real advantages of ESP. And this is in combat." </i>
<i>if you dont get the importance of map control, i'm sorry,</i> personally its more important towards a <u>team winning</u> than spotting that lone 0 pres skulk on the ceiling, like say when you spot a team of shotgun rines coming for your hive - that never happens for marines who cant see a pack of skulks coming for the CC????
and like you pointed out, the days of a lone marine setting up a siege turret in a vent to take out a hive are gone because of this. If my suggestion would only lead to unavoidable Hive rushes, what the hell do you think aliens get away with now? why else do you think skulk rushes are so effective? if we saw them coming on the territory we owned it wouldnt happen?? this is my point - its a stupid handicap for either team. How come aliens "deserve" this and marines don't? (i say neither do)
ESP for either team is killing the atmosphere and ruining balance.
Would really like to hear from UWE on this to be honest, IMO it's a big deal and I really hope the current implementation is not final or even intended.
Right now i don't see it as a problem and UWE has done alot to limit this effect. I'm sure they will continue to refine it but right now the marines don't need any advantages taken away from them. I do admit that i was upset about this around build 180 because at that time you could just watch the mini map and see almost all alien movement. Now i don't notice or mind it at all. I see it as the counter to alien vision. Aliens can see marines hiding in dark corner so the occasional blip on the mini map is totally fair.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1915123:date=Mar 19 2012, 10:36 AM:name=Dusk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dusk @ Mar 19 2012, 10:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915123"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens can see marines hiding in dark corner so the occasional blip on the mini map is totally fair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no offense, dusk but did you read anything i posted above? Aliens have an even larger advantage on this topic, imo, which acts as a handicap for map control.
and i'm not the only one who shares this view: <!--quoteo(post=1914710:date=Mar 18 2012, 01:59 PM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Mar 18 2012, 01:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On a vaguely related note, cysts also make Early Warning Systems dirt cheap for a Khammander. A few Pres into it, and you've got sensor tendrils snuck out into the more common approaches to your base, and can start calling for reinforcements before that rush hits your hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No offense taken. I do see your point about map control but my view is that its balanced and map vision is an important part of the game. I love the vision system the way it is. I like that jetpacks and cloaked aliens can bypass the system. I like that marines now build forward observatories to get vision. Aliens need the added advantage of creep giving them vision because they cant expand without limits like the marines can. Marines can easily grab many res nodes and mines give them a decent amount of defense. Aliens losing a harvester is far more devastating than marines losing an extractor.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right now i don't see it as a problem and UWE has done alot to limit this effect. I'm sure they will continue to refine it but right now the marines don't need any advantages taken away from them<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I really think this is a poor argument to keep the ESP the way it is. Just because marines are currently lacking in other departments doesn't mean some glaring issues that give marines a significant advantage shouldn't be addressed.
IMO this really ruins the early game dynamic, we've come to known from NS 1. (Where gameplay doesn't just resolve around aliens head-on rushing into marines) The changes they've made to skulk movement would seem to reflect UWE's position that skulk play shouldn't just be that, yet with the current ESP setup there's very little reason not to play it like that.
I say leave it and make an alien upgrade reduce the effect. Maybe silence should make you not appear unless you are attacking or touching a player or structure.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
i guess i see it as a handicap, bottom line, regardless of them balancing things around it, its still unfair to the receiving end/player.
if i can enter a xroads and snap shot that skulk on the ceiling who was attempting to ambush me because he showed up on my map without any input from my team - thats a handicap. if i can just hold down the map key waiting to see what side those marines are going to push next (even easier with cysts being pres now) then i can head them off every time with my mobility - they could never do that to us - thats a handicap.
and finally two things: 1) those so called defensive mines can be instantly nullified/wasted by instant, one click cysts from the khamm so thats a moot point. 2) losing a harvester is not more damaging than losing an extractor (even if it was , it <b>shouldnt </b>be! resource model must be symmetric according to flayra! else ns1 all over again) as they both acquire the same amount of res per 8 sec, yet the harvester does not need a builder or any player present in that area of the map - unlike an extractor.
one thing that hasn't been really considered is that early warning is much more useful to a marine's combat effectiveness than it is to the alien's. a marine that sees a skulk on the minimap can immediately start engaging it at range once he turns around and sees it, whereas an alien that sees a marine on the minimap still has to approach to melee distance, which means that the marine will probably see him too.
<!--quoteo(post=1915334:date=Mar 20 2012, 01:29 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Mar 20 2012, 01:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915334"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->one thing that hasn't been really considered is that early warning is much more useful to a marine's combat effectiveness than it is to the alien's. a marine that sees a skulk on the minimap can immediately start engaging it at range once he turns around and sees it, whereas an alien that sees a marine on the minimap still has to approach to melee distance, which means that the marine will probably see him too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can't really agree with this. The marine that sees the blip on their minimap has to turn around and search vertically through a mess of textures and geometry for the skulk. The skill is in how well the skulk plans that cover and closes in, versus how quickly the marine can tack the skulk and shoot them.
Once the skulk gets to melee range where the skulk is definitely seen, the point is moot because the skulk is much more powerful.
The good thing about having a hack directly implemented in game is to reduce the possibilities of cheating, it's like legalizing doping in sport. The bad thing is that everybody cheats.
<!--quoteo(post=1914641:date=Mar 18 2012, 06:44 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 18 2012, 06:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this is my point - its a stupid handicap for either team. How come aliens "deserve" this and marines don't? (i say neither do)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At first, sorry for my bad English. Feel free to correct my mistakes, so I can learn to write it better.
Now to your point: Aliens deserve the esp, because they are based on melee. That leads to the fact, that they have to know where the enemy is, to engage it unseen (at least in its own territory or with use of parasite). If you don't know where your enemy is, this gets way more difficult. Up to the point, where you only can wait on a dark ceiling until a prey moves by. This is the meta game of the skulk: Trying to engage an enemy unseen.
The marine can directly attack anything he sees. So his meta game is to detect incoming aliens as soon as he can. Giving the marine the esp he has right now, is a much greater advantage in the skulk-marine meta game than the esp the aliens got. Simply because of the melee - ranged difference.
<!--quoteo(post=1909401:date=Mar 3 2012, 03:44 AM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Mar 3 2012, 03:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909401"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The current marine minimap is essentially a free radar, many a times I have seen skulks sneaking up behind me or hiding in a dark corner of the room on the minimap and known to turn and kill them. I think the auto spot is too much, marines do not need eyes in the back of their head and the ability to spot a skulk in the rafters across a large room. So, how about we remove the spot unless the comm actually scans?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, it does get a bit silly at times.
I definitely think that the enemies should only show up on the minimap when:
a) taking damage b) receiving damage c) on infestation d) near obs // scanned
This gives a clear minimap when in combat or when skulks/marines are attacking RTs. But it does not give you the ESP of seeing skulks behind you or in dark corners that you should otherwise miss.
Kharaa only show up on the minimap if one of the following happens: - They run - They attack - They are directly in LoS of a Marine (calculated by making a "spotting cone" around the marines crosshair)
They do not show up: - When they stay still - Sneak - Use Silence
Basicly make it an "small area Motion Tracking based on sound". Reasoning behind these suggestions: Having enemies get autospotted like this, is cool. Let's face it, it's something we expect from our "teamplay" games these days. The problem is that NS is also a game that heavily depends on visual effects and player behavior to "hide from the enemy".
Gone are the days where a skulk can hide in a random small, dark corner of a room and just "observe" marines without them knowing he is there. At least until everybody discovers how well the minimap works right now. Making kharaa not show up on the minimap when standing still/sneaking would prevent marines from having an "360° awarness" at all time. It would give kharaa players at least some options to make use of the great shadow/light mechanics spark and NS2 offer without constantly feeling like being spotted by the "big brother".
<!--quoteo(post=1915341:date=Mar 20 2012, 08:38 AM:name=SideOfBeef)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SideOfBeef @ Mar 20 2012, 08:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915341"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can't really agree with this. The marine that sees the blip on their minimap has to turn around and search vertically through a mess of textures and geometry for the skulk. The skill is in how well the skulk plans that cover and closes in, versus how quickly the marine can tack the skulk and shoot them.
Once the skulk gets to melee range where the skulk is definitely seen, the point is moot because the skulk is much more powerful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You realize that most players that are good at "shooting things in FPS games" mostly do so because they often locate enemies trough sound? That's only possible because players memorize the map layout after a certain while, once they did that they can also pinpoint pretty much exactly how a location on the minimap translates to the real geometry in the map.
I can only talk from personal experience, but "hearing footsteps behind me" is usually enough for me to locate the enemy and to an quick 180° right at the enemy with my crosshair. Using the minimap in a similiar way is just a matter of getting used to it and not an matter of "oh but when you turn around that fast you are all confused!". Also the vertical search you are talking about usually isn't that "big", you either have the skulk coming right at you on the ground or he's up on the ceilling (depending on map).
Everything in between would be considered midair and easily spotable, so it's not much of an "search" is more of an instant realization along the lines of "he's not on the ground, AIM UP". What i'm saying here: Current minimap spotting is an huge advantage to an allready way easier to play/learn marine team. Imho leaving it in like this will only promote even more "rushing skulks" instead of "ambushing skulks" as more and more people get used to using the minimap as an cheap motion tracking alternative.
<!--quoteo(post=1909472:date=Mar 3 2012, 07:22 AM:name=BonesX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BonesX @ Mar 3 2012, 07:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909472"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok, so let me get this straight- Marines with tech that can phase gate accross the map, instabuild equipt, and travel accross the stars are supposed to have dumber computers than what we have now? Their high tech armour is NOT supposed to feed them info about thier immediate surroundings?
We currently have (in the real world) computers that can track incoming artillery back to its source and auto-target/fire back at it. This was used by American Forces in Iraq to take out insurgents firing mortars at patrols. The Kharra should be glad UWE isnt implimenting the same. XD
That said- i dont think the minimap is OP so long as its area to spot Kharra is limited (as it is in the current Vanilla). Its a bit like a VERY localized motion Tracking. You cant really see the Kharra in my expirence until they are already in leap range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We also currently have shotguns that can fire 20 shells in 4 seconds, or 20 grenades in 4 seconds. So compared with modern weapons NS2 has pretty bad weapons.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1915381:date=Mar 20 2012, 04:45 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Mar 20 2012, 04:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915381"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At first, sorry for my bad English. Feel free to correct my mistakes, so I can learn to write it better.
Now to your point: Aliens deserve the esp, because they are based on melee. That leads to the fact, that they have to know where the enemy is, to engage it unseen (at least in its own territory or with use of parasite). If you don't know where your enemy is, this gets way more difficult. Up to the point, where you only can wait on a dark ceiling until a prey moves by. This is the meta game of the skulk: Trying to engage an enemy unseen.
The marine can directly attack anything he sees. So his meta game is to detect incoming aliens as soon as he can. Giving the marine the esp he has right now, is a much greater advantage in the skulk-marine meta game than the esp the aliens got. Simply because of the melee - ranged difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You actually have a good point, but it is flawed for one major reason: Alien ESP is a handicap not only to the skulk - but to every lifeform on the Alien team! <u>I'd actually be ok if Alien ESP was only available for skulks, allowing said meta game to occur.</u> Does a fade need to know where every marine is on the alien controlled map for "meta game" reasons? Nope. a) He's powerful enough b) he should be communicating with his team c) he can get to anywhere - FAST d) he doesn't need to engage anything "unseen", in fact, seeing a fade go into blink mode is terrifying
This brings me to my next point: While combat advantages are important for a melee based team, allowing a major advantage that assists in map control is dangerously imbalanced and potentially equal or more important than combat, considering that map control leads to tech, which often leads to a team winning more than just kills. (unless you are an OP fade who is able to dominate the map with kills, and thus take over the map, [which IS map control] hence why i included "equal" importance to combat) So, basically i'm saying that this advantage extends far beyond just combat encounters, but rather larger more important matters such as map control as a whole - and if only one side gets this feature then it is favoring a side in map control, thus tech, thus winning etc.
and i will definitely try to help with any English corrections if i can, but dont worry, for the most part you are extremely clear. great discussion by the way. :)
@Rebirth, I'd be ok with your solution. My problem is just with skulks being able to get into melee range with marines for free, with no minimap and audio fidelity in its current state.
As to the discussion of giving Skulks the same level of ESP, what would be the point? If it's limited to the Skulk's current room, then they don't need it because they already have detective vision and know exactly where to look (the floor). If it extends through walls in a radius, that's just broken for map control.
As it stands I think it is too much of an advantage. The ESP removes some of the advantage of walking as a skulk as the marines may see you coming anyways.
I'm of the opinion that it should be removed or the cone reduced to something more reasonable. I'm leaning toward the cone being something more reasonable. Something a little smaller than the screen area so peripherals won't necessarily be on the map but aliens seen clearly will be on everyones map.
Don't forget however that skulks have their own ESP, parasite is criminally underused and is still a huge advantage even if the commander provides meds. As long as that character is sited you can see his location <i>AND FACING</i> on the map. Also one less bite after the approach. Kind of a Big Deal.
By the same token, if a skulk bites a res node and runs away you can track him on your map. Perhaps the skulk should just be placed on the map where he attacked the RT so that if he moves to an ambush position (smart play is fun play) the marine can't watch him enter that position from anywhere in the level via the map. (Was this fixed in 201, I didn't check)
my 2 credits
edit:additions to how freaking rad parasite is. Seriously, use it.
I really think it should be taken out for both sides anyway, it removes a lot of the 'surprise' elements of the game that made NS NS. Alien khamms just spamming infestation everywhere to give his team maphacks feels pretty cheap, as is the marine ability to pinpoint every skulk hiding in a room. It's small things like this that made NS 1 so great, there's very little challenge and tactics to a game that essentially gives both sides maphacks.
Comments
That and causing/taking damage.
fix minimap please
Gameplaywise it is true it can prevent ninja attacks, but it also makes jetpack more useful as you can avoid detection. Additonally you can lure aliens into attacking you by stepping on the infestation for a while, then going back into some corner and waiting for them to come. But it also makes ninja phase gates even more effective as aliens usually don't except it.
The Marine ESP is just an uncessary advantage and it destroys the gameplay aspect of being sneaky as whatever alien form since they can spot you anyway.
<ul><li>are doing or receiving damage or</li><li>are in the crosshair of one marine</li></ul>
This way, they won't show up when actually hiding in a dark spot and a marine just looks in their general direction.
And on a side note: The Marine ESP is in no way the same as the alien ESP with infestation.
<ol type='1'><li>a marine can start firing and do damage, when seeing an alien on his minimap. An alien can't.</li><li>a marine can use its esp on the whole map, an alien only in its own territory.</li><li>skulk gameplay depends strongly on ambushes, marines not.</li><li>marines who are killing cysts are a great danger for the whole alien team, an alien killing a marine with a good set ambush is not.</li></ol>
Long story short:
It may require some balancing as marines would move more careful and with that, more slowly. But I think it would add much to the atmosphere and feel of the game. Besides, it is very frustrating as alien, when hiding in a dark spot and get shot immediately after a marine enters the room.
2. an alien can use esp anywhere on their controlled territory - continuously. marines cant
3. alien gameplay depends largely on mobility, so knowing who is where at all times is a massive additional advantage with map control.
4. aliens killing RTs on the far side of the map are a great danger to marines who cannot contest it in time (despite using nano shield)
they are asymmetric, but contain similarities in this minimap ESP issue. I believe both should be removed - skulks need ambushing, and marines need to be able to have a shot at ninja tactics despite their slowness. make damage the requirement. if a marine hurts a cyst, they deserve it.
2. an alien can use esp anywhere on their controlled territory - continuously. marines cant
3. alien gameplay depends largely on mobility, so knowing who is where at all times is a massive additional advantage with map control.
4. aliens killing RTs on the far side of the map are a great danger to marines who cannot contest it in time (despite using nano shield)
they are asymmetric, but contain similarities in this minimap ESP issue. I believe both should be removed - skulks need ambushing, and marines need to be able to have a shot at ninja tactics despite their slowness. make damage the requirement. if a marine hurts a cyst, they deserve it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Has nothing to do with ESP and is therefor no argument.
2. No argument, because it's no drawback in combat. A meele-fighter has no real advantage in combat with this.
3. The same argument as 2nd. It is an advantage for map control but not a disadvantage for marines to have no everytime-surround-ESP
4. Simply wrong. The marines should not build undefendable RTs. And if they do, they can recycle with ease.
All your arguments are only one (map control related). You didn't even mention the real advantages of ESP. And this is in combat. Even more, when having melee vs ranged.
I sure would like to have more possibilities in ninja tactics as marines. But you can't build on infestation, so it doesn't matter if they show you on damage or when you are near. Your suggestion would only lead to unavoidable Hive rushs, where most aliens couldn't get there in time. The ESP on infestation isn't really a combat advantage (and if, then only in their territory, where they deserve it.) The ESP of a marine is killing the atmosphere and ruining sneaky skulk gameplay.
2. No argument, because it's no drawback in combat. A meele-fighter has no real advantage in combat with this.
3. The same argument as 2nd. It is an advantage for map control but not a disadvantage for marines to have no everytime-surround-ESP
4. Simply wrong. The marines should not build undefendable RTs. And if they do, they can recycle with ease.
All your arguments are only one (map control related). You didn't even mention the real advantages of ESP. And this is in combat. Even more, when having melee vs ranged.
I sure would like to have more possibilities in ninja tactics as marines. But you can't build on infestation, so it doesn't matter if they show you on damage or when you are near. Your suggestion would only lead to unavoidable Hive rushs, where most aliens couldn't get there in time. The ESP on infestation isn't really a combat advantage (and if, then only in their territory, where they deserve it.) The ESP of a marine is killing the atmosphere and ruining sneaky skulk gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. yes it does?? their ESP allows them a tactical advantage marines don't have with a HUGE area, and are then able to react to it much faster than a marine ever would, remove ESP from this scenario and aliens are less likely to defend areas as well.
2. it doesn't matter if they are melee or ranged? one has a CONTINUOUS HANDICAP, as powerful as marine ESP is, even theirs is brief and infrequent? if you don't see how this influences the direction of combat and combative decisions then i really feel you aren't playing enough -especially organized matches.
3. your English makes you difficult to understand on this point so i have nothing to say here.
4.<b> No kidding</b>, just like aliens shouldnt be making un defendable cysts?? that was obviously implied. i dont believe ANY commander drops and RT or a Cyst with the thinking "this is perfect, i wont be able to defend this!" no. they have every intention of defending this and holding it obviously. some are more important than others however, especially early game. but the fact remains that both cysts and powernodes are contested all the time, and while you cant see a skulk make it behind your lines to take one down, you can sure see as many marines for a long time coming if you so choose.
<i>"All your arguments are only one (map control related). You didn't even mention the real advantages of ESP. And this is in combat." </i>
<i>if you dont get the importance of map control, i'm sorry,</i> personally its more important towards a <u>team winning</u> than spotting that lone 0 pres skulk on the ceiling, like say when you spot a team of shotgun rines coming for your hive - that never happens for marines who cant see a pack of skulks coming for the CC????
and like you pointed out, the days of a lone marine setting up a siege turret in a vent to take out a hive are gone because of this. If my suggestion would only lead to unavoidable Hive rushes, what the hell do you think aliens get away with now? why else do you think skulk rushes are so effective? if we saw them coming on the territory we owned it wouldnt happen?? this is my point - its a stupid handicap for either team. How come aliens "deserve" this and marines don't? (i say neither do)
ESP for either team is killing the atmosphere and ruining balance.
no offense, dusk but did you read anything i posted above?
Aliens have an even larger advantage on this topic, imo, which acts as a handicap for map control.
and i'm not the only one who shares this view:
<!--quoteo(post=1914710:date=Mar 18 2012, 01:59 PM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Mar 18 2012, 01:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On a vaguely related note, cysts also make Early Warning Systems dirt cheap for a Khammander. A few Pres into it, and you've got sensor tendrils snuck out into the more common approaches to your base, and can start calling for reinforcements before that rush hits your hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMO this really ruins the early game dynamic, we've come to known from NS 1. (Where gameplay doesn't just resolve around aliens head-on rushing into marines) The changes they've made to skulk movement would seem to reflect UWE's position that skulk play shouldn't just be that, yet with the current ESP setup there's very little reason not to play it like that.
if i can enter a xroads and snap shot that skulk on the ceiling who was attempting to ambush me because he showed up on my map without any input from my team - thats a handicap.
if i can just hold down the map key waiting to see what side those marines are going to push next (even easier with cysts being pres now) then i can head them off every time with my mobility - they could never do that to us - thats a handicap.
and finally two things: 1) those so called defensive mines can be instantly nullified/wasted by instant, one click cysts from the khamm so thats a moot point. 2) losing a harvester is not more damaging than losing an extractor (even if it was , it <b>shouldnt </b>be! resource model must be symmetric according to flayra! else ns1 all over again) as they both acquire the same amount of res per 8 sec, yet the harvester does not need a builder or any player present in that area of the map - unlike an extractor.
Can't really agree with this. The marine that sees the blip on their minimap has to turn around and search vertically through a mess of textures and geometry for the skulk. The skill is in how well the skulk plans that cover and closes in, versus how quickly the marine can tack the skulk and shoot them.
Once the skulk gets to melee range where the skulk is definitely seen, the point is moot because the skulk is much more powerful.
At first, sorry for my bad English. Feel free to correct my mistakes, so I can learn to write it better.
Now to your point:
Aliens deserve the esp, because they are based on melee. That leads to the fact, that they have to know where the enemy is, to engage it unseen (at least in its own territory or with use of parasite). If you don't know where your enemy is, this gets way more difficult. Up to the point, where you only can wait on a dark ceiling until a prey moves by. This is the meta game of the skulk: Trying to engage an enemy unseen.
The marine can directly attack anything he sees. So his meta game is to detect incoming aliens as soon as he can. Giving the marine the esp he has right now, is a much greater advantage in the skulk-marine meta game than the esp the aliens got. Simply because of the melee - ranged difference.
Yeah, it does get a bit silly at times.
I definitely think that the enemies should only show up on the minimap when:
a) taking damage
b) receiving damage
c) on infestation
d) near obs // scanned
This gives a clear minimap when in combat or when skulks/marines are attacking RTs. But it does not give you the ESP of seeing skulks behind you or in dark corners that you should otherwise miss.
Kharaa only show up on the minimap if one of the following happens:
- They run
- They attack
- They are directly in LoS of a Marine (calculated by making a "spotting cone" around the marines crosshair)
They do not show up:
- When they stay still
- Sneak
- Use Silence
Basicly make it an "small area Motion Tracking based on sound".
Reasoning behind these suggestions: Having enemies get autospotted like this, is cool. Let's face it, it's something we expect from our "teamplay" games these days.
The problem is that NS is also a game that heavily depends on visual effects and player behavior to "hide from the enemy".
Gone are the days where a skulk can hide in a random small, dark corner of a room and just "observe" marines without them knowing he is there. At least until everybody discovers how well the minimap works right now.
Making kharaa not show up on the minimap when standing still/sneaking would prevent marines from having an "360° awarness" at all time. It would give kharaa players at least some options to make use of the great shadow/light mechanics spark and NS2 offer without constantly feeling like being spotted by the "big brother".
<!--quoteo(post=1915341:date=Mar 20 2012, 08:38 AM:name=SideOfBeef)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SideOfBeef @ Mar 20 2012, 08:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915341"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can't really agree with this. The marine that sees the blip on their minimap has to turn around and search vertically through a mess of textures and geometry for the skulk. The skill is in how well the skulk plans that cover and closes in, versus how quickly the marine can tack the skulk and shoot them.
Once the skulk gets to melee range where the skulk is definitely seen, the point is moot because the skulk is much more powerful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You realize that most players that are good at "shooting things in FPS games" mostly do so because they often locate enemies trough sound?
That's only possible because players memorize the map layout after a certain while, once they did that they can also pinpoint pretty much exactly how a location on the minimap translates to the real geometry in the map.
I can only talk from personal experience, but "hearing footsteps behind me" is usually enough for me to locate the enemy and to an quick 180° right at the enemy with my crosshair.
Using the minimap in a similiar way is just a matter of getting used to it and not an matter of "oh but when you turn around that fast you are all confused!".
Also the vertical search you are talking about usually isn't that "big", you either have the skulk coming right at you on the ground or he's up on the ceilling (depending on map).
Everything in between would be considered midair and easily spotable, so it's not much of an "search" is more of an instant realization along the lines of "he's not on the ground, AIM UP".
What i'm saying here: Current minimap spotting is an huge advantage to an allready way easier to play/learn marine team. Imho leaving it in like this will only promote even more "rushing skulks" instead of "ambushing skulks" as more and more people get used to using the minimap as an cheap motion tracking alternative.
We currently have (in the real world) computers that can track incoming artillery back to its source and auto-target/fire back at it. This was used by American Forces in Iraq to take out insurgents firing mortars at patrols. The Kharra should be glad UWE isnt implimenting the same. XD
That said- i dont think the minimap is OP so long as its area to spot Kharra is limited (as it is in the current Vanilla). Its a bit like a VERY localized motion Tracking. You cant really see the Kharra in my expirence until they are already in leap range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We also currently have shotguns that can fire 20 shells in 4 seconds, or 20 grenades in 4 seconds. So compared with modern weapons NS2 has pretty bad weapons.
Now to your point:
Aliens deserve the esp, because they are based on melee. That leads to the fact, that they have to know where the enemy is, to engage it unseen (at least in its own territory or with use of parasite). If you don't know where your enemy is, this gets way more difficult. Up to the point, where you only can wait on a dark ceiling until a prey moves by. This is the meta game of the skulk: Trying to engage an enemy unseen.
The marine can directly attack anything he sees. So his meta game is to detect incoming aliens as soon as he can. Giving the marine the esp he has right now, is a much greater advantage in the skulk-marine meta game than the esp the aliens got. Simply because of the melee - ranged difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You actually have a good point, but it is flawed for one major reason: Alien ESP is a handicap not only to the skulk - but to every lifeform on the Alien team! <u>I'd actually be ok if Alien ESP was only available for skulks, allowing said meta game to occur.</u> Does a fade need to know where every marine is on the alien controlled map for "meta game" reasons? Nope. a) He's powerful enough b) he should be communicating with his team c) he can get to anywhere - FAST d) he doesn't need to engage anything "unseen", in fact, seeing a fade go into blink mode is terrifying
This brings me to my next point: While combat advantages are important for a melee based team, allowing a major advantage that assists in map control is dangerously imbalanced and potentially equal or more important than combat, considering that map control leads to tech, which often leads to a team winning more than just kills. (unless you are an OP fade who is able to dominate the map with kills, and thus take over the map, [which IS map control] hence why i included "equal" importance to combat) So, basically i'm saying that this advantage extends far beyond just combat encounters, but rather larger more important matters such as map control as a whole - and if only one side gets this feature then it is favoring a side in map control, thus tech, thus winning etc.
and i will definitely try to help with any English corrections if i can, but dont worry, for the most part you are extremely clear.
great discussion by the way. :)
As to the discussion of giving Skulks the same level of ESP, what would be the point? If it's limited to the Skulk's current room, then they don't need it because they already have detective vision and know exactly where to look (the floor). If it extends through walls in a radius, that's just broken for map control.
I'm of the opinion that it should be removed or the cone reduced to something more reasonable. I'm leaning toward the cone being something more reasonable. Something a little smaller than the screen area so peripherals won't necessarily be on the map but aliens seen clearly will be on everyones map.
Don't forget however that skulks have their own ESP, parasite is criminally underused and is still a huge advantage even if the commander provides meds. As long as that character is sited you can see his location <i>AND FACING</i> on the map. Also one less bite after the approach. Kind of a Big Deal.
By the same token, if a skulk bites a res node and runs away you can track him on your map. Perhaps the skulk should just be placed on the map where he attacked the RT so that if he moves to an ambush position (smart play is fun play) the marine can't watch him enter that position from anywhere in the level via the map. (Was this fixed in 201, I didn't check)
my 2 credits
edit:additions to how freaking rad parasite is. Seriously, use it.